Necromancers and Shamans should receive the Charm (anything) line of spells at launch

[Dolalin]

At launch, Necros got the Charm spell at 24, and the Beguile spell at 44. Shamans got the Charm spell only, at level 34.

Necromancer spell list:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990508052640/http://gameznet.com/eq/spells/necromancer.html

Shaman spell list:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990508210355/http://gameznet.com/eq/spells/shaman.html

These were removed in July 1999. Necros got Screaming Terror instead as a replacement:


7/15/99

Ok I finally locate the spell that replaced Charm for Necromancers
Screaming Terror ) , available for purchase in the Erudian Necro guild and
make the Purchase based on what Verant had written in the Patch News " Play
with it as there is no spell like it in its class". So I return to Qeynos
and scribe it and proceed to cast it on a Bat to see what it does and Low
and Behold i'm amazed at the results ( I didnt realize that there were 3
ways to make the spell Fear ) Thats right kiddys we gave you another Fear
spell that is castable on undeads as well as on living mobs and the only
noticable difference was that a mob hasnt ( so far ) Returned to attack me
after casting it. So how many of you Necro's out there actually thought that
we would lose the ability to charm a mob and gain something that we basicly
allready have ?. The worst part is that the spell costs almost 13plat. But
if you know of something else it does also feel free to post your Findings
as I cant see anything other than what I saw happen when I casted it.
Cthen Nightwalker
24 lvl ( Human ) Necro
E'ci


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/yrZ92xYwzyI/iZrWWBPOxnYJ

[Erati]

if they do this, we MUST have classic Mistmoore !!!!!

The castle used to be FRIGHTENING because there were rumors that Vampires would steal you and trap you inside. Basically, you would get charmed from mobs you couldnt see as they were above you or behind doors and next thing you knew you were 'walking' around the castle as their pet which meant certain death when charm wore off. Nearly every castle train to the zone resulted in players being walked back to the castle. It was really a scary place.

This was removed very quickly within a couple months as Mistmoore and several other dungeons were too difficult with necromancer NPCs having charm ability.

[Dolalin]

Addendum to bug: NPC necros and shamans should have these charm spells in their spellbooks too until July 1999.

[DMN]

The original screaming terror had some interesting uses. It was a 100% memory wipe. So if you used your pet to beat something down to 1% life and didn't want to lose the exp you could use ST while backing the pet off. nuke the little remaining hit points and then get full exp.

But here's where it was amazingly abusive. You could use it to kill steal raid mobs with tens of thousands of hit points. Even if the mob was immune to fear they'd still get the mem wipe.

now imagine two guilds fighting over cazic thule, dracolich etc. one knows the trick, one doesn't. who's getting the pixels?

[Erati]

Addendum to bug: NPC necros and shamans should have these charm spells in their spellbooks too until July 1999.

Meldrath in Steamfont was also a notorious 'body snatcher' as people warned noobs to never venture deep into the mino caves or else Meldrath would sense you and drag you to his lair.

( there are no LOS checks for outdoor zones so basically Meldrath would aggro from a distance if you went too deep into the mino cave near his lair and he would charm you causing you to uncontrollably walk to him which resulted in a death when charm faded. Recovering this corpse was miserable )

[DMN]

Meldrath in Steamfont was also a notorious 'body snatcher' as people warned noobs to never venture deep into the mino caves or else Meldrath would sense you and drag you to his lair.

( there are no LOS checks for outdoor zones so basically Meldrath would aggro from a distance if you went too deep into the mino cave near his lair and he would charm you causing you to uncontrollably walk to him which resulted in a death when charm faded. Recovering this corpse was miserable )

Oh you think that's bad for CR? that erudite chick In the ferrott spectre caves would charm you and if the random walking pathing dictated so, would send you into the plane of fear.

[Dolalin]

Nixx Nenix in old Paw would also charm, he was a necro for the first few months. Lots of evil mobs like this in old EQ. :D

[Nirgon]

lol do it

u wont

[Baler]

Maybe on Green (202X)

[Sillyturtle]

This shows charm and Beguile MUST be added to green for the Necro and Charm for shaman

[Quinas]

Heavens.

[Dolalin]

Proof that Shaman NPCs were charming:


4/21/99

Ah yes but you see it's not actually the non-pvp that harms you but
the shaman NPC that charms them. They're used like a magic user uses
his/her pet.

> Sheesh, I leave UO to avoid the annoying PKs, and I get PKed on my third
> day in EQ 8-).


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/u3ViTsMS3xA/z6YE0kIKasAJ

Proof Necromancer NPCs were charming:


3/31/99

I've been charmed a couple of times by a wandering Necro - only lasted a few
seconds but maybe that's because I'm a cleric with high wisdom. Once during
a lull in his powers(?) I grasped at a straw and cast cure disease on myself
it seemed to work and I was free from his evil clutches. Alas, my elation
was short lived and I soon met an untimely demise, but I died a free man
nonetheless.
A lot of fun this game is with all the interesting twists ("What
the....!?!....Ack!!!.....hmm....Yes!!!!.....D'oh!")

Pistos


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/AngspuaP7nQ/uK5J-J5idGIJ

[Izmael]

Add the ability to the mobs only.

Players will abuse it to an extent beyond everything we've seen until now. This will work against the classic *experience*.

[Dolalin]

Charm has a lvl25 cap and Beguile has a lvl39 cap. It's not exactly game-breaking for a Shaman to be able to charm greens or a necro (who gets undead charm anyways) to charm blues with their shitty charisma scores.

I have a feeling the Shaman charm was removed because it was mostly useless anyways.

[Glasken]

Charm has a lvl25 cap and Beguile has a lvl39 cap. It's not exactly game-breaking for a Shaman to be able to charm greens or a necro (who gets undead charm anyways) to charm blues with their shitty charisma scores.

I have a feeling the Shaman charm was removed because it was mostly useless anyways.

Not to derail but, this brings an interesting question.

Undead charm on a necro, animal charm on a druid/shm etc... dont have a charisma check.

I am wondering if that is due to the class casting the spell, or the spell itself.

If the former, charm will be a tad broken in a number of key camps around the level those spells are available to a necro. If the later, well, human necro with some steins ftw?

[Dolalin]

Good thinking Glasken. That could be something that would have to be addressed if this is implemented.

I see enchanter threads on P99 recommending *at least* 200cha to charm safely so I'm not sure two steins would do it. :D

[Izmael]

Charm has a lvl25 cap and Beguile has a lvl39 cap. It's not exactly game-breaking for a Shaman to be able to charm greens or a necro (who gets undead charm anyways) to charm blues with their shitty charisma scores.

I have a feeling the Shaman charm was removed because it was mostly useless anyways.

A level 39 pet is pretty solid, especially if hasted and dual-wielding (SHM). Combine with solid ability to kill on top of that (dots, JBB), quite some tankage, mana regen, and we get a broken class.

[Dolalin]

A shaman would never be able to charm a mob over level 25, and only at level 34. And it's patched out four months after launch.

In any event we aren't here to debate class design, we're here to recreate how things were in classic. This is how they were in classic.

[DMN]

To people looking at things with "blue-tinted glasses":

1. The top 44-49 pets were significantly stronger for both necros and mages than they are on blue.
2. Necros could not haste their charms but could haste their pets.
3. Because of 1 and 2 necros would get similar damage by just buffing their pets versus charming a live mob. Much higher risk, low reward.
4. Necros had no mez back then so handling charms was a lot more complicated/risky.
5. necros had no way(via spells) to lower the MR of a charm target.
6. Enchanters were extremely rare. I had the only enchanter in a 100+ person guild in the first couple months. I only mention this because if you pair the necro up with an enchanter you see a lot of the problems with necros getting the most out of charming fade away.
7. Charming in general wasn't terribly good back then due to the paucity of mobs. You were happy to find just a single spawn to pull. Charming a mob meant you were tying up exp/loot.

Because of all these reasons necros weren't even concerned over losing charm, but were incredibly upset about the delay nerf and the stat nerf on high level pets.

[Dolalin]

Add to this that necros still get undead charm and one of the main end game zones will be lower guk, full of dead frogs, who are hasteable with the necro's haste (I think?) versus live mobs who are not... it's a tempest in a teapot.

[DMN]

Not to derail but, this brings an interesting question.

Undead charm on a necro, animal charm on a druid/shm etc... dont have a charisma check.

I am wondering if that is due to the class casting the spell, or the spell itself.

If the former, charm will be a tad broken in a number of key camps around the level those spells are available to a necro. If the later, well, human necro with some steins ftw?

Has anyone ever even been able to confirm that necro did NOT have a charisma check? As far as I know this is just a rumor/speculation.

My understanding was always that the charisma check was just more generous for certain classes but it still existed. Necros for instance got a much more generous charisma check on their charisma-linked spells; while enchanters got a much more harsh one. I've discussed this here in the past, as I was totally convinced(and still am) that something is incredibly off with lulls on necromancers.

edit here it is :

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/importance-of-charisma.220085/

"Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It's unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic. "

[Quinas]

Has anyone ever even been able to confirm that necro did NOT have a charisma check? As far as I know this is just a rumor/speculation.

My understanding was always that the charisma check was just more generous for certain classes but it still existed. Necros for instance got a much more generous charisma check on their charisma-linked spells; while enchanters got a much more harsh one. I've discussed this here in the past, as I was totally convinced(and still am) that something is incredibly off with lulls on necromancers.

edit here it is :

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/importance-of-charisma.220085/

"Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It's unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic. "

There is a sizeable group on this forum who will tell you CHA has no effect on charm breaks for Enchanters.

[Dolalin]

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/...arisma.220085/

"Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It's unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic. "


That doesn't seem to be how it works on P99 though.

Druid charms here don't take charisma into account:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19299&highlight=druid+charm

This thread seems to agree on Necromancers too:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131981&page=2

[DMN]

That doesn't seem to be how it works on P99 though.

Druid charms here don't take charisma into account:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19299&highlight=druid+charm

This thread seems to agree on Necromancers too:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131981&page=2

Unfortunately it's unlikely you will find much good empirical evidence in there about charming due to natural level variation among the same mobs, magic resist in different mob types, and large duration variation on the charms themselves even if the other two miraculously stay constant. They often don't even have a big stat comparison. Like they think 25 cha points is going to make a "huge" difference or something.

I do remember CHA had a significant impact on my enchanter's vanilla existence for charm/lull/mez and you felt it most when you were doing CR in the naked. It never seemed to matter much on my necro, and that includes lulls. I charmed a bit on my druid, too, but not enough to really speak on how things worked during vanilla or the greater "classic" timeline.

However, that doesn't mean there was no charisma check. The necro might be rolling with d20s, druid d12s, and the enchanter d6s. In fact I'm totally confused by some of the comments and links you posted. They say that they took out the charisma check and that's supposed to be a good thing, yet they also claim you only needed to successfully save on level difference, MR, or CHA . if that's true then removing it as part of the charm save would make the charm worse for druid/necros.

[Dolalin]

Check page two of the druid thread, Uthgaard commented "fixed".

[DMN]

Check page two of the druid thread, Uthgaard commented "fixed".

?? still confused.

If all you needed to do is to save on ONE of the three saves (level, MR, Cha) then removing the cha check would make the spell worse.

[Dolalin]

From the thread:


That assumed, there is simply no way to buff charm for druids to be in line with these comments without OPing enchanters unless charm is changed to ignore CHA for druids. This was already done for necros to be in line with classic -- can the same please be done for druids given the overwhelming evidence that CHA had little or no effect on druid charm?


I don't know how much clearer you need it to be man.

The Charisma check is a chance for the *mob* to save against the charm, not for the charmer to *succeed* at the charm. You've got it backwards.

[DMN]

From the thread:



I don't know how much clearer you need it to be man.

The Charisma check is a chance for the *mob* to save against the charm, not for the charmer to *succeed* at the charm. You've got it backwards.

Try reading it again.

A: Charisma does not directly affect any spell. Charisma affects what are known as 'saving throws' or 'secondary throws'.

When you cast a charm spell or mesmerise spell, the monster first checks against your level v it's level, then it checks against its resistance, then it checks against your charisma.

With duration spells such as charms, each tick the monster gets a saving throw and this process is repeated. If any one of these checks is successful (ie: you win the roll) then the spell holds.

[Dolalin]

With duration spells such as charms, each tick the monster gets a saving throw and this process is repeated. If any one of these checks is successful (ie: you win the roll) then the spell holds.


This is where you're slipping up. It's not a chance to succeed at the charm, it's a chance to fail at the charm. Or more accurately, the *charmed mob* makes a saving throw every tick against those checks.

Removing the charisma check removes a saving throw for the mob, meaning one less reason the charm can break every tick.

[DMN]

This is where you're slipping up. It's not a chance to succeed at the charm, it's a chance to fail at the charm. Or more accurately, the *charmed mob* makes a saving throw every tick against those checks.

Removing the charisma check removes a saving throw for the mob, meaning one less reason the charm can break every tick.

But that's not what It says. It says if you win any of the rolls.

Even if you make a bizarre assumption that the "you" is referring to the monster, why would winning any of those saves/roll successfully keep the spell in place?


Your confusion is confusing.

[Dolalin]

Well I looked in the EqEmu source, and if P99's code is similar, we're both right.

Charisma over 75 lowers mob resist chance, and Charisma below 75 increases it.

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/db085b71267a9c571263c6fa44b0fbaf6f21aba8/zone/spells.cpp#L4624

[DMN]

It seems kind of strange that so many sources suggest that saving throws are being made every tick, yet that suggests it only checks on first cast.

Even though the majority of evidence suggests it checked on a tick by tick basis, verant usually tried to minimize packets being bounced around. Feel pretty torn on it.

peaking of oddities, it's also funny I noticed the fear resist in there. I actually tested fear way back when and the presumed "urban legend" that lower charisma improved fears effectiveness. I only tested my base charisma and then my charisma as low as I could possible get it. So both of them were below 100, and hence it made no difference. My conclusion was it has no affect on fear resists. But now that emu says CHA OVER 100 worsens resist rates.

Quirks like this make me question almost everything if that's how it really worked. Even quality testing/observation can be thwarted by wacky formulas.

[Dolalin]

Correction to bug:

Charm and Beguile were removed in June 1999. ST was then added in July as compensation.


6/29/99

Johnathan P. Gaetz wrote in message <7lavn2$6...@news.acns.nwu.edu>...

>Now they've even
>taken away Charm and Beguile, possibly the most group-useful
>spells we had. In short, I'm not a happy camper and becoming
>less so with every patch that comes out.

But those are being replaced with new spells in the next patch. At least
wait and see if the new spells are any good.

Jeff K.
Nystramo on Cazic-Thule


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/bwRJgLGA6vs/-TRECCDkVx0J

[Quinas]

It's pretty great that everyone was comfortable to publish their real names on random gaming forums in 1999.

Good sleuthing.

[DMN]

It's pretty great that everyone was comfortable to publish their real names on random gaming forums in 1999.

Good sleuthing.

Was back when the internet was mostly filled with generally decent folks. Unlike now when every smacktard mouth breather can shit post on their phone.