Monk vs Ranger vs Rogue on green

[soronil]

I want to play them all! but not enough time. I only played live on a druid up to 30s, and I didn't really play P99 until a couple of months ago and have been playing SK.

I am familiar with the pros, cons, strengnths, weaknesses, but I don't really have a grasp on how "fun" the classes are or how they "feel". I also am mostly clueless on how the vanilla planar raid scene is but am interested in that. So sell me on your class or convince me not to play one.

Monk - yes I am ok with a human monk. I like the idea of monk, but I want to be DPSing in dungeons not just chain pulling as soon as I drop off a mob. BUT I feel like on green though, due to groups being so poorly geared and dungeons more crowded, there will be downtime, and chain pulling won't really be as common (so a monk would pull a mob and then stay until the fight is over). What do you guys think? Itemization on a monk seems the most boring. (no weapons better than fist when you can obtain them, slowly replacing cured silk, not even completely, until planes.) I kind of like the idea of the challenging weight limit, kind of hate it.

Rogue - king of melee dps, low responsibility in groups but always desired. No solo ability but I'll have a mage alt for when I can't find a group. Tons of gear out there to get. The part of me that wants to guise a monk or ranger will be disappointed if I start green with a DE mage and a rogue that can get it any time.

Ranger - Not as much DPS as the above 2, but can tank some if needed. OK in a group, but never actually ideal? (Here, fill your dps / tank / pull slot with something not ideal and have an exp penalty to boot). The whole kit is cool, the vibe of the class is cool, can do some cool stuff in outdoor zones, but is it a good class to experience classic with?

[ldgo86]

Monk- won’t be chain pulling, instead careful and skillful splitting will probably matter more

Rogue- evade doesn’t exist for a while, that’s a bummer. Stick it out until epics and you’ll be golden.

Ranger- hybrid penalty sucks but you gotta respect the struggle. tbh I’m seriously considering ranger because it’s such a meme class.

Hope this helps

[Jimjam]

Monk has a lot of gear options in classic!

Foremans tunic, azure sleeves, fine silk turban, cloak of shadows, thick banded belt, granite bracer, wu's fighting gauntlets off the top of my head. You can fill out most slots in the teens with mesh armour (cloth weight leather ac). Jboots or soft leather for magic kick.

2hbwise Glowing crook great ratio, attainable early on. A treant staff is handy too.

All that said, ranger is funnest. Have a mage summon you arrows and kite the kell out of ghoul messenger. Short sword of morrin purdy!

[soronil]

Monk has a lot of gear options in classic!!
I dunno man, I literally tried to go through every slot , all items of vanilla gear looking at stats and weights.

Those staffs are both heavy and monk is duel weilding 9/35 by then with fists, that seems better. I looked at every weapon. I think cracked staff until level 10 is literally the only big upgrade for monks.

Armor is 1 or 2 pieces per slot are better than cured silk. But some slots have no real upgrade until planar. And even the slots that have upgrades, many times you are just getting something with more AC, very few things have STR. And if you find something that weights even 1 stone you kinda feel bad about it!
Compared to other classes that have multiple upgrades per slot with their preferred stats on them, it just feels less fun a to be a monk from gearing side

[Snaggles]

Of the 3 the ranger will have a 40% exp penalty tacked on. They also get SOW at level 39 as I recall rather than 30.

Yea, melees in general are a fairly "meh" in classic EQ. I was a rogue back then on live and do remember having plenty of envy for how cool rangers looked.

Arguably if you stick it out and can get a Guise the ranger and monk are two of the greatest classes to get a DE illusion. Nothing wrong with a rogue besides not being able to solo (at all). It's a staple for any group really.

[Cecily]

I quit blue with a 60 rogue, druid, and ranger. I loved all them all, but ranger was the most fun because it had the vibe of both classes. It's way harder than either, but the struggle is why you're on Green isn't it?

You can't spell rangierd without GDI. Grind. Discrimination. Isolation. Really a whole lot of fun.

[Aaramis]

And at level 1 you can track the one mob in zone that's not dead yet!! ;)

[Jimjam]

I dunno man, I literally tried to go through every slot , all items of vanilla gear looking at stats and weights.

Those staffs are both heavy and monk is duel weilding 9/35 by then with fists, that seems better. I looked at every weapon. I think cracked staff until level 10 is literally the only big upgrade for monks.

Armor is 1 or 2 pieces per slot are better than cured silk. But some slots have no real upgrade until planar. And even the slots that have upgrades, many times you are just getting something with more AC, very few things have STR. And if you find something that weights even 1 stone you kinda feel bad about it!
Compared to other classes that have multiple upgrades per slot with their preferred stats on them, it just feels less fun a to be a monk from gearing side

I feel like this was an intentional design decision thay the monks who spurned belongings were the most effective. Of course that can't pan out in a game which becomes more and more equipment orientated as it expands older.

[Noselacri]

Rogue is just kinda bad in classic. Their DPS isn't particularly high and they bring nothing else to the table, plus they don't really get good weapons outside of raids. When you compare the garbage that a non-raiding rogue will be wielding to things like mithril 2h, SSoY and monk fists, it's no wonder the class usually sucks. Better if you can get one of the raid piercers, but we all know that 95% of players will have no chance whatsoever of killing dragons or gods. For the vast majority of rogues, the best you can hope for is to one day nab a lucky Eyerazzia, and it could take many months.

[Baler]

There aren't many great weapons for rogue in classic.
Monk isn't really at it's true till kunark and iksars. The regen + AC helps with pulls/tags/etc
Ranger.. well ranger will not be good until the very end of velious so arguably.. for launch. Ranger is an option.

[Aaramis]

Rogue is just kinda bad in classic. Their DPS isn't particularly high and they bring nothing else to the table, plus they don't really get good weapons outside of raids. When you compare the garbage that a non-raiding rogue will be wielding to things like mithril 2h, SSoY and monk fists, it's no wonder the class usually sucks. Better if you can get one of the raid piercers, but we all know that 95% of players will have no chance whatsoever of killing dragons or gods. For the vast majority of rogues, the best you can hope for is to one day nab a lucky Eyerazzia, and it could take many months.

So pure vanilla, no dragons / Sky / Fear / Hate, you have what as the best 1h? SSoY? 8/24 with 75DD proc?

Rogues have:
Burning Rapier 7/20 with 37DD proc. Gloomwater Harpoon is 9/31. Polished Steel Dirk 8/23. Serrated Bone Dirk 8/27 but unfriendly proc.
All of which obtainable with the same sized force (duo, group, etc.) needed to get a SSoY.
Not a bad deal, really.

[soronil]

Thanks guys. I know melee damage will suck. I know rogues don't have a ton of great weapons, but mostly access to similar stuff as everyone else, so with backstab at least they do a little bit more damage than everyone (not completely useless, just not essential).

I am no closer to making a decision! I will probably play them all to mid level and see which one i want to go further with. Regardless i will have a mage to play to at least feel somewhat useful at launch

[YendorLootmonkey]

Meh, it's been a while but Rangers actually do okay in classic... you can tank classic non-god/dragon mobs with snap aggro AND DPS? Yes, please.

Worth 40% xp penalty? Depends on how much a glutton for punishment you are. Your non-hybrid friends with outlevel you and leave you behind. The min-maxers will look over you for grouping.

Clearly that changes when Kunark launches, mobs hit a lot harder, and their mitigation/avoidance lags behind.

[soronil]

So pure vanilla, no dragons / Sky / Fear / Hate, you have what as the best 1h? SSoY? 8/24 with 75DD proc?

Rogues have:
Burning Rapier 7/20 with 37DD proc. Gloomwater Harpoon is 9/31. Polished Steel Dirk 8/23. Serrated Bone Dirk 8/27 but unfriendly proc.
All of which obtainable with the same sized force (duo, group, etc.) needed to get a SSoY.
Not a bad deal, really.

Burning Rapier is not in for 7 months (Temple of Sol Ro).
No idea what a Polished Steel Dirk is, the only 8/23 item is Cazic Quill which comes out with Epics
Not sure how hard it is to get a Gloomwater Harpoon, but seems like an option.

[Noselacri]

Meh, it's been a while but Rangers actually do okay in classic... you can tank classic non-god/dragon mobs with snap aggro AND DPS? Yes, please.

Worth 40% xp penalty? Depends on how much a glutton for punishment you are. Your non-hybrid friends with outlevel you and leave you behind. The min-maxers will look over you for grouping.

Clearly that changes when Kunark launches, mobs hit a lot harder, and their mitigation/avoidance lags behind.

Yeah, rangers are legitimately good outside of raids. In raids they're a bit meh, but almost all raid loot in classic is restricted to one class so it's not like people won't bring a ranger to raids. There's practically no cross-class competition for gear and no maximum raid size. People won't go out of their way to recruit rangers but there's no reason to exclude them from raids.

Given P99's hopeless raiding scene, the vast majority of players will never raid. When the endgame consists of dungeons, soloing and dicking around, ranger is a great class. Perfectly serviceable tank, good enough DPS to do that role as well, and extremely self-sufficient. When I think of ideal group setup (that aren't just 5 mages and an enchanter or something), it has a ranger in it as the snarer, backup tank and outoors puller.

When you're grinding in LGuk, it really doesn't matter whether mobs die in 20 or 22 seconds. It's much more important that shit gets tanked and that someone's able to stick a snare early enough to avoid accidents. You don't really want a druid snaring on inc, but a ranger can easily do it. If the tank isn't an SK, I'd take a ranger over a rogue any day.

Outside the grinding meta, it's just insanely convenient to have SoW, great tracking, respectable melee, harmony, invis, and both root and snare. It's such a useful utility package. For the longest time, all melees will be wearing the same gear anyway so the only thing the other tanks have really over a ranger is a higher hp pool which is pretty irrelevant when people are mostly healing with greater healing. It's not until planar armor that the plate tanks start to move ahead.

[darkreap]

Plus Rangets get a wide range of quest gear. Most of the mobs for the quest are not contested and the below gear will easily carry you until 50 when you can start killing dragons and planar mobs. Other melee classes also have quested gear, however, the rangers seems easiest to obtain.

Sword of Morin
Orc Impaler
Trueshot Longbow / Raincaller
Ivy Etched
Hero bracers

[Danth]

No idea what a Polished Steel Dirk is

It's a little-known item that occasionally dropped off spectres in qeynos catacombs. They aren't present on the P99 wiki but people were using them on P99 in 2010-2011 pre-kunark.

Danth

[Snaggles]

Even in the most vanilla version with crappy gear rogues do ok DPS. Gear to gear more than a warrior or ranger. Poison is expensive but gives an trick up the sleeve if you have time to prep a dose. The asp stuff is a cheap low skill DD to make.

I played a rogue on live thinking it was the underdog. Probably why I was jealous of rangers. Besides looking cool and having utility spells/tracking that is.

You have compare apples to apples in this game. Few people do. A lot of theorycrafting with “once I get___”.

[thetree]

I played a monk in vanilla and all the way through POP before leaving, as I return to P99 green for some fun I can tell you that monks are good tanks, pullers, and DPS. however th only thing they accel at is DPS. the others ra ejust kind of OK for a while. you aren't going to be able ot get a fungi, or a Tstaff, or some other random great lvl 50 item that will be fun and really change the tables. For a long time you will be using the Wu's items, yoru bare fists, and mend/FD/Bandages will be your best friend as you level up.

I played a ranger once velious came out because they were so powerful once it rolled out. it was a hell of a lot of fun, but again I had a bank full of twink gear to make the leveling a non consideration. if I had to re-learn with nothing but a busted single handed sword I may have pulled my hair out.

Never played a rogue

[Gustoo]

I played a ranger in kunark and no one cared or mentioned exp penalty. I was in amateur groups up to high 40s in dreadlands and no one ever complained that my dual lamentation and constant taunting meant that I was taking most of the hits.

Good times.

On rallos zek I played one too but did stealth solo leveling so as not to get jacked. On that server basically ogre shamans were hi threat because their 120 base strength meant they hit me more reliably hard when jousting and I hated how weak elf's were in banded vs fatties.

On green I'd just be whatever you like. Hybrids way nicer to live with than a warrior. You won't be pharming much but you can get around the world with much more ease

[jolanar]

Rangers aren't bad in classic because they don't have the skill cap issues they get in Kunark.

They also have lots of fun quests and worst case they can bow kite to solo.

[Naethyn]

For melee dps:

Rog > War > Monk/Ranger > Pal/SK

Monks consistently parse below warriors and at ranger levels of dps on raids.

[Pilgrimzero]

Rogue not getting Backstab until 10 means 9 levels of near uselessness. Well more like 4 levels (5-9) to groups.

Im almost 8 on mine and Im giving serious thought to switching to Monk. Rogue is not good for to long while Monk is useful right off the bat.

Whats funny to me is EQ is based somewhat off D&D 1st and 2nd ed, where Rogues (Thieves) leveled faster than any other class and had Backstab at level 1.

[Noselacri]

Do people seriously make class choices based on how good classes are in the first few levels?

[Pilgrimzero]

Do people seriously make class choices based on how good classes are in the first few levels?


When it’s hard to find a group and you can’t solo for crap, yes.

[Jimjam]

Do people seriously make class choices based on how good classes are in the first few levels?

Gotta be able to complete the early levels before you can complete the later levels.

[Pilgrimzero]

CB Belts got me through 7-10. Loving Backstab! And groups seem to want me.

As for Bards, started one. That 40% xp penalty is so damn harsh.

[Wallicker]

Just roll a wizard, more raid DPS than a warrior + ranger + rogue combined in classic, can easily solo 29-50, and can port for ease of travel and a nice plat hustle.

[Snaggles]

There will be people who won't invite a class/race on odd logic. Law of averages...just keep the faith, you will find some cool people eventually.

Even on classic rogues do nice dps. That said, rogues that can't control aggro and brag about BS numbers put them to the back of the list for me. If I'm grinding for HOURS I don't need to affirm a show-boater of his/her worth doing literally the only thing they were invited to do.

[vanix]

I think monks are far superior tanks to rangers but that's just me maybe.. I think I tank on blue on my human monk literally over tanks at times because I'm easier to manage lol.....

[Jimjam]

I think monks are far superior tanks to rangers but that's just me maybe.. I think I tank on blue on my human monk literally over tanks at times because I'm easier to manage lol.....

The difference only really manifests from kunark onwards where rangers defence progression is stonewalled while other classes improve by about 25% in an expansion that only increases max level by 10.

[Snaggles]

I think monks are far superior tanks to rangers but that's just me maybe.. I think I tank on blue on my human monk literally over tanks at times because I'm easier to manage lol.....

Yea much better at taking a hit but Flame Lick aggro is insane. Keeping the mob on one target is the key for burning down targets and not making your healer forcequit.

Not giving monks a taunt button was very smart engineering for the reason you mentioned.

[Teflondon75]

The difference only really manifests from kunark onwards where rangers defence progression is stonewalled while other classes improve by about 25% in an expansion that only increases max level by 10.


Out of curiosity WTF did they do this? do you know, did they ever say? I'm playing a Ranger, enjoying it but also know it has some(more than some? lol) weaknesses. Heck 20 years ago when I was leveling my rogue people were talking about Rangers not being so hot. 20 years later it's still being talked about haha.

[Bazia]

with the shit items available before planar rangers are literally rogues without backstab and shitty level 9 druid spells

[Xealias]

Out of curiosity WTF did they do this? do you know, did they ever say? I'm playing a Ranger, enjoying it but also know it has some(more than some? lol) weaknesses. Heck 20 years ago when I was leveling my rogue people were talking about Rangers not being so hot. 20 years later it's still being talked about haha.

People have always been jelly of rangers imo! Well played ones could chain pull (at least outdoors, indoors in much later expansions), put out constant & respectable dps, provide CC to a fair degree, solo well and tank group content to a very respectable degree for at least the first 15 expansions. We turned into proper DPS beasts around 10 expansions in and one became one of the best hard solo classes.

[Tecmos Deception]

with the shit items available before planar rangers are literally rogues without backstab and shitty level 9 druid spells

Even if we admit this for the sake of argument, giving up backstab for harmony, snare, and root isn't the worst trade in MMO history.