Question about SF camp

[San'Drax]

Just want to run this past the lawyers and make sure my thinking is correct. If there is no one present at the Stormfeather camp (it is outside his window and someone camped or something), I can take the camp?

[Legidias]

How do you know no one is present? You dont have to be directly on top of spawns to claim a camp, just be able to kill mobs once spawned.

Your best bet is to sit at the camp, answer people if they ask if it's camped, and when SF spawns wait the 30s or 2 mins or w/e nonsense people say is their limit of waiting and engage.

[San'Drax]

I know no one is there because the only people in the zone are quadding cougars.

I'd rather not sit there and waste my time if someone is going to log in later and say "this is my camp, I was just on an alt while waiting for the SF window to open".

[Raije1000]

yes it is yours, person must stay present

[soronil]

How do you know no one is present? You dont have to be directly on top of spawns to claim a camp, just be able to kill mobs once spawned.


PNP disagrees:

"You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it."

I would say if you don't see anyone there, and no one responds to a couple of "Camp check" requests, its yours.

[loramin]

I know no one is there because the only people in the zone are quadding cougars.

I'd rather not sit there and waste my time if someone is going to log in later and say "this is my camp, I was just on an alt while waiting for the SF window to open".

They can't do that. By the Camp Rules (http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules) if you leave the zone you automatically lose your camp.

If it was a very brief link death people will usually let you have it back, but they are not obligated to, and certainly if you leave for any extended period of time you can't even expect even the most polite players to give the camp back.

TLDR; If you're certain that you're the only one camping the mob in the zone with you, then no one can possibly enter the zone and take that camp (unless you leave).

However, I should note that the GMs (to my knowledge) have never explicitly addressed camping something you didn't kill previously. It's generally assumed that the rules work the same on a "first come, first serve" basis ... but AFAIK they've never actually said that.

As far as what's explicitly been said, I think every mob is technically FTE unless someone has killed it previously. All the GM rulings have been about "I was camping X and Bob came along ..." not "I was waiting for X to spawn, having never killed it before, and Bob showed up ..."

In practice if you've been waiting for a mob for awhile and someone shows up and takes it, I think you could successfully petition ... I just don't know of any GMs posting in the forums saying as much.

[Brawley17]

It amazes me how many more people play blue than red when I read posts like this.

I can't imagine having to deal with "camp rules"

[fadetree]

Well, you have to deal with that kind of thing when there's more than a dozen people playing. Wish there was something we could do that would make 95% of the players leave the server...oh wait.

[soronil]

As far as what's explicitly been said, I think every mob is technically FTE unless someone has killed it previously. All the GM rulings have been about "I was camping X and Bob came along ..." not "I was waiting for X to spawn, having never killed it before, and Bob showed up ...".


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2657569&postcount=79 (first sentence)
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2851768&postcount=505

Those two (particularly the first) suggest that you do not have to kill the previous spawn to own a camp. Just be the first person to the camp (and physically stay there). So i would disagree with "every mob is technically FTE unless someone has previously killed it" I think the "camping" page you posted (And wrote) disagrees with that also!

[loramin]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2657569&postcount=79 (first sentence)
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2851768&postcount=505

Those two (particularly the first) suggest that you do not have to kill the previous spawn to own a camp. Just be the first person to the camp (and physically stay there). So i would disagree with "every mob is technically FTE unless someone has previously killed it" I think the "camping" page you posted (And wrote) disagrees with that also!

They suggest it, but they don't say it. And if you want to get technical, Menden also says:

It's no different than AFKing between spawns for any other camp like Ass/sup, oot AC, frenzy, ect...

Again, all the camp rules written in the PnP and described explicitly by the staff in forum rulings, never ever answer the question "someone else killed mob X previously, and now no one seems to be camping it: the official way you make that camp your's is ______".

With all other camp rulings the answer to that question is clear: the way you take a camp is by killing its mobs previously. Whoever killed a camp's mobs last "owns" that camp. And again, if you read the explicit rules (the PnP (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349)), they say:

Though, any single spawn point can be claimed, that is the only spawn you can hunt (if being contested). If you are to claim this point you must get aggro/First to Encounter (FTE) within a reasonable amount of time.

I think the most obvious way to interpret that is "no mob is camped until someone has killed it recently; otherwise all mobs are FTE." BUT, that doesn't quite seem to jive with peoples' experiences ... if you sit waiting for Hadden for 3 hours and someone shows up and FTEs him, I think a lot of people would expect the staff to help you ... but I really couldn't guarantee that the staff would rule one way or the other.

I'd love for the staff to say "if you sit on a spawn point, announce in OOC that you're camping the mob, and wait ___ minutes with no response, the camp counts as your's, and the staff will help you if another player tries to take it (but if someone responds that they were camping the mob, it's their's)" ... or whatever. Any explicit rules are better than having to guess at stuff IMHO.

But I don't know that the staff want to define those details: I think they feel the details vary by camp, so they just leave everything open to interpretation.

Many rules here are known by the staff but not by most players (unless they happened to interact with a GM on that specific topic). And many other "rules" aren't universal at all: they depend heavily on context, and different GMs might make different rulings. The whole reason I made the camp rules page was to try and collect everything explicit the staff has said, so we could all be somewhat on the same page ... but that still leaves a lot of unknowns because the staff doesn't comment publically on everything.

Now please don't misunderstand: I'm not staff-bashing, and in fact over time the staff has really improved things! For instance, up until a few months ago, the PnP used not have any explicit camp rules at all (thanks staff for improving it!)

But still, some things just aren't explicitly clear, and "taking a camp" without killing its mobs is one of those things. Just purely trying to be as neutral and lawyerly as possible, I think the current explicit rules require you to kill the mob to claim a camp ... but as with many things, the explicit rules aren't the whole story.

[Legidias]

The reason why people dont have to respond is that, while some camps are 6 min or 30 min spawns, others are 2, 4, or 18+ hours

[Izmael]

If noone replies to an OOC camp check, get a See Invis and run around the SF pop area to see if anyone is there hidden or invis. Wolf form can be hard to see on snow.

If you're positive there's nobody, claim the camp, otherwise ask them to get on the list.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Well, you have to deal with that kind of thing when there's more than a dozen people playing.

That made me LOL :)

[Legidias]

I always imagine some country boy where its just the farm for hundreds of acres where visiting his next door neighbor takes like 3 weeks on foot.

"Goin to the city always reminds me of how many people there are. Can you believe they actually have stop signs AND FOLLOW THEM?!?!"

[soronil]

Though, any single spawn point can be claimed, that is the only spawn you can hunt (if being contested). If you are to claim this point you must get aggro/First to Encounter (FTE) within a reasonable amount of time..

I think the most obvious way to interpret that is "no mob is camped until someone has killed it recently; otherwise all mobs are FTE."

Seriously dude? you just added bold to part of the sentence and ignore the next 6 words which completely changes the meaning completely. Let's retry:

If you are to claim this point you must get aggro/First to Encounter (FTE) within a reasonable amount of time..

That does not mean that the camp is FTE if no one last killed the mob. It means that if the mob is up an unreasonable amount of time, you lose your rights to the camp.

I don't see any official word differentiating the concepts of "killed the last spawn" and "first person at the camp". I would go as far as to say you can completely remove "killed the last spawn" from the equation 99.9% of the time, since it is implicit that, if the person that killed the last spawn is still at the camp, they are the first person at the camp. (notable exceptions including someone KS'd your last spawn)

I just don't see any evidence/basis for your argument.

[loramin]

Seriously dude? you just added bold to part of the sentence and ignore the next 6 words which completely changes the meaning completely.

I was highlighting the important part. Look, you can argue with me all you want, but I don't make the rules. All I do is copy what the GMs say to the wiki, and then rearrange the relevant parts into a single place (the Camp Rules (http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp Rules) page).

As for everything else you wrote ... I:

just don't see any evidence/basis for your argument.

You didn't provide a single quote, let alone one where a GM says "this is how you take a camp without killing a mob". And that doesn't surprise me: I took the time to compile staff rules quotes awhile back (see http://wiki.project1999.com/Rulings), and none of them mention anything about taking camps for mobs you haven't killed.

Also, to be clear, like many of my wiki projects I started the Camp Rules (http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp Rules) page because I saw certain forum threads being repeated, and I thought a wiki page would be a better solution to share the information. I did not do it because I have any personal stake in interpreting any specific ruling in any particular way. Everyone is welcome to interpret what I assemble however they wish.

Ultimately, neither you nor I will know for sure if you're correct unless A) a GM shows up in this thread, or B) you get into a camp fight and petition. Until one of those two things happens, all anyone can do is speculate.