Shaman are just good Necromancers

[Midoo]

Just some shitpost-y speculation, nothing serious.

But think about it. Both tap from their life to restore mana (both subtly imply it involves painful ripping of one's own flesh), inflict horrible diseases that break every rule of the Geneva convention including poisoning, uncontrollable fevers and physical discomfort, and they both have a faithful spiritual pet.

Think of what would happen if a Shaman were to push the boundaries of Torpor's vital sign-slowing properties so far that they would appear lifeless to any onlooker. (https://wiki.project1999.com/Feign_Death)

[fiveeauxfour]

whats the best race for a shaman?

[azeth]

whats the best race for a shaman?

I thought troll but after getting one to 60 I'd prefer ogre

[Cen]

Oh boy here we go.

JBB, Snare, Regen, FSI, Slam, AC Bonus, Faction

Pick your poison

- Slam, JBB, Faction
- Slam, JBB, Regen, and Snare
- Slam, JBB, FSI
- Regen, AC Bonus

[baakss]

Frontal Stun Immunity outweighs every other potential benefit combined and it’s not even close.

[loramin]

Frontal Stun Immunity outweighs every other potential benefit combined and it’s not even close.

* at level 60

[baakss]

* at level 60

While leveling it's huge too. Bash no longer immediately interrupts, much less stuns. It's crazy how good it is.

[Jibartik]

DarkOgreElf

[loramin]

While leveling it's huge too. Bash no longer immediately interrupts, much less stuns. It's crazy how good it is.

Yeah but an XP bonus and good faction everywhere (or maybe regen and AC bonus, never played Troll/Iksar) is kinda good too when leveling too.

[Danth]

I thought troll but after getting one to 60 I'd prefer ogre

For THAT question, definitely troll.

(more realistically, shaman racial choice is about the most over-thought topic on this board).

Danth

[Naethyn]

http://wiki.project1999.com/images/Iksar_spirit_weaver.png

[ScottBerta]

Ogre and it’s not even close at 60.

Cisco 60 Ogre Shaman

[Crede]

Ahh another thread full of FSI dick riders. Being an ogre with FSI is more about convenience. The reality is it’s saved your life over another race <1% of the time. There isn’t a single thing an ogre shaman can do that a non ogre shaman can’t. However, extra regen is working 100% of the time amounting to millions of extra hp. Best shaman race is a troll. Doesn’t matter what level. I’d say iksar but jbb is too good to pass up.

[GinnasP99]

Don't forget what you'll look like as a bear.

[baakss]

Ahh another thread full of FSI dick riders. Being an ogre with FSI is more about convenience. The reality is it’s saved your life over another race <1% of the time. There isn’t a single thing an ogre shaman can do that a non ogre shaman can’t. However, extra regen is working 100% of the time amounting to millions of extra hp. Best shaman race is a troll. Doesn’t matter what level. I’d say iksar but jbb is too good to pass up.

Wrong. FSI wins in a landslide. Stop spreading bad information.

[mefdinkins]

However, extra regen is working 100% of the time amounting to millions of extra hp. Best shaman race is a troll.

At level 60 on shaman with relatively good gear or 3,000 hp self buffed. Regen is basically like receiving a complete heal every 8 minutes.

[derpcake2]

Given that IFS doesn't do anything when not tanking, while hp regen always translates into extra mana, it is a silly discussion.

If you want to kill a mob and think the stun immunity is deciding (it never is) bring a tank.

When doing a mob like yeldema, the extra regen means less casts of torpor, which means more time to do DPS, which means a faster kill.

IFS isn't going to prevent a good shaman from dying on Yeldema, because a shaman worth their dog is not getting into a situation where a stun will lead to their death.

[Croco]

anyone who thinks anything but troll is the best race for a shaman is either mentally ill or high

[Danth]

Tried to stop it but there's no stopping this one. Equivalent question: "What's better an Enzo or a McLaren?" On car boards that one has been known to create a fair number of heated discussions too, and it's just as silly.

Reality: They're all good and the difference is splitting hairs. There are no bad choices for a Shaman.

Danth

[Croco]

There are no bad choices for a Shaman.

Danth

Every choice besides troll is a bad choice for a shaman. You get regen that equates to 3/4th's of a fungi for free, innately, and snare neck, and jbb.

Shamans consume hps to get mana and Trolls get 11hp per tick regen more than every other (non-iksar) race at 60. Trolls do literally what a shaman is meant to do and they do it better. You can try to fool yourself into thinking the other choices are remotely close but that's all you'll be doing is fooling yourself.

[Danth]

Every choice besides troll is a bad choice for a shaman. You get regen that equates to 3/4th's of a fungi for free, innately, and snare neck, and jbb.

Shamans consume hps to get mana and Trolls get 11hp per tick regen more than every other (non-iksar) race at 60. Trolls do literally what a shaman is meant to do and they do it better. You can try to fool yourself into thinking the other choices are remotely close but that's all you'll be doing is fooling yourself.

I consider being able to do all the same content "remotely close" by definition. Perhaps you do not.


Danth

[Vexenu]

Anyone who says that Troll is the best Shaman race is a Troll.

[Mead]

Ogre will always be the superior race. FSI and best aesthetics.

[Crede]

Anyone who says that Troll is the best Shaman race is a Troll.

Anyone who says Ogre is the best Shaman race is really just annoyed at the thought of getting stunned for a couple seconds and having to click the spell an extra time. Not what it’s actually doing in making them be a better shaman.

[Zeboim]

Ogres are the worst fashionquest race imo therefore inferior.

Trolls got that triangular a e s t h e t i c

[Wallicker]

Y’all seen that SS BP for troll shamans? It literally turns them into Batman.

[Midoo]

I go for one day and my thread is derailed. Thanks guys.

[Teppler]

I did ctrl+f all pages of this topic for the word 'slow' and it's not used.

Shaman's slow raw power is incredible. It turns vicious beasts into puppies, hitting wise.

Outside of some leveling tactics, there's not much comparison. For a caster, shaman is middle of the pack as a leveling class. Necro is an incredible leveling class.

Different game once it's 60 and they are way different classes at that point. For myself, 95% of the game as been at 60 just to give perspective. For some people, the complete opposite.

[loramin]

I go for one day and my thread is derailed. Thanks guys.

Well but:

whats the best race for a shaman?

That's like casting a magic "agro all Shaman" spell ;)

P.S. I'm 99% certain fieeauxfour was not asking that question seriously, but rather was referencing it's magic spell-like powers. But that spell is so powerful ...

[Danth]

Well but:

That's like casting a magic "agro all Shaman" spell ;)

P.S. I'm 99% certain fieeauxfour was not asking that question seriously, but rather was referencing it's magic spell-like powers. But that spell is so powerful ...

That's what my *first* response in this thread was getting at: He was casting a wide net, and knew it. It's an effective net, too. But heck, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Danth

[Zeboim]

It just gives credence to how balanced Shaman races are.

That said, I think the argument is a bit different depending on blue or green specifically. A shaman without Torpor, JBB, fungi, Canni 2, epic... the fsi vs regen question is weighted a bit differently.

[Croco]

I consider being able to do all the same content "remotely close" by definition. Perhaps you do not.


Danth

I consider doing all the content faster, better, more efficiently, and with less deaths "not remotely close". If all you care about is fashionquest pick whichever race you want. If you're min maxing and want to be the best shaman you can be Troll is the best. It's not really opinion, it's fact.

[Jibartik]

I consider doing all the content faster, better, more efficiently, and with less deaths "not remotely close". If all you care about is fashionquest pick whichever race you want. If you're min maxing and want to be the best shaman you can be Troll is the best. It's not really opinion, it's fact.

why?

[jacobar]

* at level 60

*at level 40* or *in your 30s* pretty much from the time stuff starts to hit harder than 40dmg. getting off a root could mean life or death always

[jacobar]

I consider doing all the content faster, better, more efficiently, and with less deaths "not remotely close". If all you care about is fashionquest pick whichever race you want. If you're min maxing and want to be the best shaman you can be Troll is the best. It's not really opinion, it's fact.

I wish i had 10$ for every time i asked a dead troll shaman what happened and they said, "ah man, unlucky stun"

[Zuranthium]

Anyone who says Ogre is the best Shaman race is really just annoyed at the thought of getting stunned for a couple seconds and having to click the spell an extra time. Not what it’s actually doing in making them be a better shaman.

It's often more than a couple seconds difference. Many casts are very long at high levels. You could be losing as many as 8 seconds of cast time if a bash interrupts you - 6 seconds of casting interrupted + 2 seconds of stun.

Time is money. If you are losing 2 minutes of time per fight when soloing because of getting bashed, then your rate of being able to farm has been significantly slowed down. That can also make the difference when trying to solo a hard NPC. When you are being hit *multiple* NPC's, the difference of not getting stunned is also definitely a big difference in whether you might survive or not.

It just gives credence to how balanced Shaman races are.

That said, I think the argument is a bit different depending on blue or green specifically. A shaman without Torpor, JBB, fungi, Canni 2, epic... the fsi vs regen question is weighted a bit differently.

Regen is definitely more important pre-Kunark.

Shaman races would be "balanced" in Kunark era if JBB was Barbarian only. That race has nothing else relevant to offer in terms of actual abilities.

[Teppler]

First you have to decide, over the long term, if you are going to be a shaman that tanks melee hits or not. If you don't, Troll is undoubtedly better. This can often be the case for a raid toon.

If you do non raid stuff after 60 then you can start making the comparison.

I have FSI and I love it. Wouldn't trade it in. Factor in spell interrupts and how much time FSI saves, thus allowing for more spells. Need to weigh that against extra regen. Not to mention the reliability FSI affords. You know what is going to get through with a lot more reliability thus can plan better. There's moments, very practically, when you need torpor or slow to get through and an interrupt is really bad.

[brokenpromise]

Interesting thread. I've been threatening to roll a shaman recently. Looks like the community is divided for once.

How many have leveled troll or ogre? Anyone level both?

[Croco]

I wish i had 10$ for every time i asked a dead troll shaman what happened and they said, "ah man, unlucky stun"

Dude I know, you could like buy some taco bell and maybe a starbucks.

[Zeboim]

I know FSI can certainly save your life, but I don't think I've spoken to any troll shamans that would have traded their char for it. It definitely seems to me like until Torpor the troll is full on ahead, but after torpor? It seems like the race differences become pretty moot and its mostly a fashionquest decision.

And Ogres look like garbage pail kids.

[Jibartik]

If you're min maxing and want to be the best shaman you can be Troll is the best. It's not really opinion, it's fact.

I just dont understand this argument. Iksar have better regen then troll, are not giant, can wear VP robe, does not have troll exp penalty pre velious... How is troll better than iksar? :confused:

[Zuranthium]

Iksar and Troll regen and exp penalty is the same though?

It just comes down to JBB and snare clicky for Troll, vs slightly higher AC and Robe for Iksar. The clickies are better for leveling purposes, but the stats for Iksar are better in some end-game situations.

[Cen]

Iksar have better regen then troll / does not have troll exp penalty pre velious

Im 99.99% sure the regen is identical, and 90% sure the xp penalty for both is for their whole existence.

[Zeboim]

I feel like the utility of the JBB is hard to ignore in favor of a cool robe that you have only a minuscule chance of ever seeing.

Troll size is actually a plus imo. You have Shrink, so you always have a fun party trick loaded.

[Trollhide]

anyone who thinks anything but troll is the best race for a shaman is either mentally ill or high

[Jibartik]

Iksar and Troll regen and exp penalty is the same though?

Oh look at that, for years I thought trolls had slower gain in regeneration from level 1 than iksar did, but that is incorrect according to the wiki so nevermind.

Both Iksar and Trolls have higher HP regeneration rates (per tick):

Level 1-19: 4 sitting, 2 feigned, 2 standing
Level 20-49: 6 sitting, 2 feigned, 2 standing
Level 50: 8 sitting, 2 feigned, 2 standing
Level 51-55: 12 sitting, 8 feigned, 6 standing
Level 56-59: 16 sitting, 12 feigned, 10 standing
Level 60: 18 sitting, 14 feigned, 12 standing

[skorge]

Ogre shaman is best on a PVP server...the FSI means you can actually gate out vs gank squads.

Troll shaman is best for PVE, especially if you ever plan to raid on shaman. Regen is ALWAYS in effect vs FSI only being used when you are getting hit, which is way less more time you play a shaman.

The JBB makes troll the pick over Iksar.

The snare neck is just a bonus.

If you have a troll with dark-elf guise you can rock a Guardian Robe and look super dope (only reason im mentioning this is someone brough up iksar being able to wear a robe).

[aaezil]

This thread is supposed to be shamans are better necros stay on topic nerds

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Ogres look like garbage pail kids.

[therealmd]

Iksar is the sexiest. Nothing else needs to be said.

[Crede]

This thread is supposed to be shamans are better necros stay on topic nerds

Tbh when I got my shamans epic I just felt like a weak necro. Missing out on those last 2 big dick damage ticks was really annoying. A necro with lich could prob root rot just as efficiently since splurt doesn’t use a ton of mana but most are charming asap.

Shamans obviously way more powerful at 60, except maybe soloing in fear. Torpor shoulda gone to druids.

[fortior]

yeah man just a weak necro with a 75% slow

[fiveeauxfour]

P.S. I'm 99% certain fieeauxfour was not asking that question seriously,

I hadn't seen one of these stupid shaman race threads in a while, so....

this topic usually brings out a special level of autism not seen in the normal fodder of this cesspool

PS I <3 you nerds

[Sonark]

Fun how incremental min maxing is on p99, and how much people are going to fight over it anyways.

[Danth]

"Shaman are just good Necromancers"

Maybe not so good, at that. Three of the four are unambiguously evil, and the fourth (barbarian) follows a god/mentality that's portrayed as, at best, good-leaning neutral.

Danth

[Maschenny]

First you have to decide, over the long term, if you are going to be a shaman that tanks melee hits or not. If you don't, Troll is undoubtedly better. This can often be the case for a raid toon.

If you do non raid stuff after 60 then you can start making the comparison.

I have FSI and I love it. Wouldn't trade it in. Factor in spell interrupts and how much time FSI saves, thus allowing for more spells. Need to weigh that against extra regen. Not to mention the reliability FSI affords. You know what is going to get through with a lot more reliability thus can plan better. There's moments, very practically, when you need torpor or slow to get through and an interrupt is really bad.

Seriously, the answer is FSI. Shaman spells are sooo slow as it is.

[Jimjam]

But 1/4 of those worship the tribunal, so at least one quarter of them should be just.

[Danth]

Seriously, the answer is FSI. Shaman spells are sooo slow as it is.

Nah, Teppler's right, it depends heavily on the individual player's circumstances. Bash resist becomes totally worthless the moment you aren't being hit. In a three hour session earlier the wife's shaman was struck in melee while channeling a spell exactly six times, and interrupted from a bash precisely once. We counted. (It interrupted bane of nife, not even important.) That's typical for us. There are days she doesn't get hit at all. For that set of circumstances the ogre racial is fluff.

Nice racial to have--never required, but nice--when solo. Those high-level spells cast sloooooowwwwwwwly.

Danth

[Glasken]

I just dont understand this argument. Iksar have better regen then troll, are not giant, can wear VP robe, does not have troll exp penalty pre velious... How is troll better than iksar? :confused:

Not to overcorrect, and I normally dig your posts as thoughtful and well-meaning, but...


Iksar/Troll regen tables are identical.
Iksar/Troll racial exp penalties are identical.


Iksar can wear VP robes, Troll can regen like iksar and get JBB.

That is the current state of the world on those two races regarding Shammies.


Back on topic...

Necros are the undisputed kings of DoT spells, and are far more resourceful and capable throughout their leveling periods than the shaman ever will be. Necros are better necros by virtue of their toolkits. Period.

That said, a BiS, clickied-out torp shaman will spank a lot of solo camps that would eat a necro. Does that make the shaman a better necro?

No.

[aaezil]

Every class is bad compared to shaman at 60 in certain situations

[Zeboim]

Every class is also bad compared to Enchanters in certain most situations.

Kind of pointless to parse this stuff honestly.

[Jibartik]

Obviously the GM's have the most power.

[Cen]

Holy shit.. What if ogres could be enchanters?