Monk 1hb vs 2hb

[Zemus]

With the new patch i'm curious how the parses are playing out.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NxgRV6Uje6iyIBTgqT-EnPJwKiUnu5IhpA35bRDuIn0/edit?usp=sharing

So i did some testing with western wastes mobs. 60 monk 1367 atk. 81% haste. FoN+BoF (108 dps) vs Abasahi (99 dps).

So looks like 1hb is still better but 2hb got a lot closer. I would be interested to see some comparisons with different weapons/levels and some raid monsters.

Let's see what you got.

[Legidias]

Id assume on raids 1hb will vastly out dps 2hb due to AC minimizing hits, even with 2h upgrades.

[Zemus]

From Tunare today

https://i.imgur.com/WraZplS.png

Diamondfist(gharns/fon) and Chillwin(fon/bof) are using 1h. Firfisle (abashi) and Raev(abashi) used 2h.

[Jimjam]

Id assume on raids 1hb will vastly out dps 2hb due to AC minimizing hits, even with 2h upgrades.

Weren't mobs meant to have a cap of like 200ac or something until plane of tactics?

[Kinaki]

Tunare AC is kind of middle of the road, the effect should be even more pronounced w/ AoW.

[kjs86z]

Can't knock Chillwin's data as long as its accurately parsed.

Although Troxx had an interesting post on damage bonus (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2958249&postcount=19) and 2 handers.

Curious to see what the final result winds up being.


edit: here's a question....were Firfisle and Raev autistically swapping their Abashi's out between swings for fist dmg?

[Legidias]

Weren't mobs meant to have a cap of like 200ac or something until plane of tactics?

A mix of higher AC and lvl difference.

Misses are also way more disastrous on DPS for slow 2H than 1H

[Ruhtar]

Autistic weapon swapping is essential for 2h use on a monk. If you're not willing to do that, use 1h.

[Rokzor]

Autistic weapon swapping is essential for 2h use on a monk. If you're not willing to do that, use 1h.

[Pint]

Autism is essential for a monk

[Zemus]

edit: here's a question....were Firfisle and Raev autistically swapping their Abashi's out between swings for fist dmg?

Test was actually between me and Raev in the same group with the same buffs (bard etc), and yes he was weapon swapping but pulled agro when tank pushed out of range and went splat.

Note: Agro on 2h's has gone WAY up. Off topic, but Warrior epic 2h is probably best (in terms of threat) for tanking now (or Palladius for the 80 ac)

[monkeydoc]

Misses are also way more disastrous on DPS for slow 2H than 1H

Can anyone explain why this is true? Intuition tells me that missing would have the same impact on both (each individual miss being more lost damage, but the same amount of lost damage over time).

[kjs86z]

Can anyone explain why this is true? Intuition tells me that missing would have the same impact on both (each individual miss being more lost damage, but the same amount of lost damage over time).

You're right. People just tend to have negativity bias.

The less data you have, the more it will swing (sorry, bad pun) one way or the other.

You need a really large data set to show people that hits and misses wind up being the same.

This whole dual wield vs. 2HB thing is tough to look at without a vacuum to test in.

[Troxx]

You're right. People just tend to have negativity bias.

The less data you have, the more it will swing (sorry, bad pun) one way or the other.

You need a really large data set to show people that hits and misses wind up being the same.

This whole dual wield vs. 2HB thing is tough to look at without a vacuum to test in.

This.

A more detailed discussion on this topic can be found here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333411

[Troxx]

I don’t have any super endgame weapons on my monk alt but if you look at ratios:

TStaff raw ratio is 42% better than epic and 33% better than SoM.

Abashi is 37% better than 16/19 and 37.4% better than 15/18.

Regarding these tiers of weaponry, for raw melee (not factoring procs though these should not be discounted), the relative performance differences should be similar. You could reasonably expect that comparisons for the one should be close to the other.

It’s not perfect, but it’s a starting point. Removing the chaos of a raid environment from the comparison should be useful but I’ll be the first to admit that if in fight after fight, raid after raid, and mob after mob one setup always beats the other then that’s just the way it is. This requires honesty and consistency posting every single parse (the good/bad/ugly/flattering/notflattering). Single parses are just the starting point, but at least we have that.

I’ll work on gathering more data with the weapons I’ve got. Differences in ratio 2h vs DW are very similar ... so maybe it will help.

[Bardp1999]

Everything I have heard is the "2h bonus" is lack luster at best but I suppose time will tell (if anyone is actually left on Blue in 2 months)

[Troxx]

Everything I have heard is the "2h bonus" is lack luster at best but I suppose time will tell (if anyone is actually left on Blue in 2 months)

Everything I’ve experienced and parsed on my 60 warrior, paladin, and monk since the patch is the opposite of what you’ve heard.

The paladin in particular with his shitty knight attack values and tendency to hit lower rather than higher saw a massive increase (percentage wise at least) in his damage with the damage bonus going from 11-12 per hit to 40 per hit with a 46 delay weapon.

[Zemus]

It’s not perfect, but it’s a starting point. Removing the chaos of a raid environment from the comparison should be useful but I’ll be the first to admit that if in fight after fight, raid after raid, and mob after mob one setup always beats the other then that’s just the way it is. This requires honesty and consistency posting every single parse (the good/bad/ugly/flattering/notflattering). Single parses are just the starting point, but at least we have that.


Did someone say Vindi?!?

[aaezil]

You're right. People just tend to have negativity bias.

The less data you have, the more it will swing (sorry, bad pun) one way or the other.

You need a really large data set to show people that hits and misses wind up being the same.

This whole dual wield vs. 2HB thing is tough to look at without a vacuum to test in.

The thing is most fights outside of a select few raid fights arent long. So the swingyness in dps of a 2hander will matter if you are just killing a single mob or just killing somewhere for 15 mins or something. Of course if you were killing stuff all night the swingyness would even out towards an average dps.

[skorge]

Why not find a mob that spawns at the same level and does not buff and run the numbers? Kill said mob 100 x. Look at the numbers.

All these parses don't matter if the mobs aren't exactly the same.

Someone has to take one for the team to really do this right.

[monkeydoc]

I'm grinding out levels 57 and 58 on two mobs that are always the same level. Using epic/SoS because I'm a scrub. I probably contribute a parse several hundred fights after a while. What would a comparable 2H be? Don't say TStaff due to aforementioned scrub status.

[Raev]

I had fun hanging out with Chillwin! However I kind of sucked that fight as I a) died b) used primal fists for 10% of it. It's also worth noting that I don't have any AoB items and our bard failed to proc his epic for us. Which is why from a scientific standpoint there is really no need to be empirical when the answer is so easy to calculate:

Abashi's: (40*2 + 29) / 30 = 3.63
Fist of Nature + Fist of Lightning: (15*2 + 11 + 15*2*0.78) / 18 = 3.57

So Abashi's should do a bit more melee damage on average, especially against high AC targets as it now has a higher damage bonus than 1H, while the Fist of Nature will compensate with the procs. My sperglord calculator suggests:

DI = 2.5 average (spore king area w/avatar):
FoN/FoL: 103
Gharn's/FoL: 100
Abashi's: 98

DI=1.8 (KT w/avatar, 100% MR)
Abashi's: 76
Gharn's/FoL: 76
FoN/FoL: 74

[Zemus]

Well Raev, while I don’t find any fault in the calculations, the reason we need the parses is because the implementation details are hidden to us, especially how AC works in p99.

[Jibartik]

You're right. People just tend to have negativity bias.

The less data you have, the more it will swing (sorry, bad pun) one way or the other.

You need a really large data set to show people that hits and misses wind up being the same.

This whole dual wield vs. 2HB thing is tough to look at without a vacuum to test in.

My stupid lizard brain thinks: "well isn't each fight a small data set, so therefore the 1hblunt misses would be less impactful than the 2h blunt ones making it superior for each, of many, of these small data sets?"

Can someone explain to me why this is wrong?

[HedleyKow]

I'm grinding out levels 57 and 58 on two mobs that are always the same level. Using epic/SoS because I'm a scrub. I probably contribute a parse several hundred fights after a while. What would a comparable 2H be? Don't say TStaff due to aforementioned scrub status.

Imbued Fighter's Staff

[Jayzeus]

I'm grinding out levels 57 and 58 on two mobs that are always the same level. Using epic/SoS because I'm a scrub. I probably contribute a parse several hundred fights after a while. What would a comparable 2H be? Don't say TStaff due to aforementioned scrub status.

Peacebringer 28/30 no proc

[TomisFeline]

I'm pretty sure there are a few low level mobs that have insane hp and hp Regen .

I.e. the paineel newbie area guards. someone should use them (if they work) or a similar kind of mob to parse data where you need one mob you can just whack away on to gather data.

they probably aren't high ac mobs, but it will give you a chance to settle this under at least one controlled, sustained condition

[Ortnit]

Sentry Enots in Skyshrine at WL zone is also good test subject (Wiki says 18k HP) for lowlevel mob tests.

[Legidias]

Bards (http://wiki.project1999.com/Pendle_Dashinger) can be tanks if you get tired of killing bear walruses