Mage vs necro; my experience

[Troxx]

Mage
-sustained dps and burst is pretty amaze balls. Only class that consistently does more dmg is a charm class with a good/strong pet buffed/hasted and DW. Rogues lose out over time.
-utility is there but ‘meh’. Rods and coth are neat. DS is always welcome. Summon toys are cute. But overall? ‘Meh’
-simple play style (a positive or negative depending on preference)

Damage potential dps grade A+ Baseline plus burn
Overall grade B+
Ability to make/break a group C-

Necro
-sustained dps and burst is ‘meh’ unless charming. It’s decent and worth a group spot with summon pet but nothing impressive. Parses are good-ish but nothing flashy
-utility is outstanding to include heals/rez/cc but for already well balanced groups is often redundant. Summons and rezzes are expensive.
-for atypical or otherwise flawed groups they are godly.
-charm dps in the right location is the bees-knees but charm also negates other valuable utility given the risk of charm breaks without the enchanter toolkit for control and recovery
-if charming pet dps is possibly greater but the sum total compared to mage is more or equal (possibly higher, possibly lower)
-complex play style

Usual damage potential dps grade B- to B+
Possible dmg potential if charming A+
Overall grade A
Ability to make or break group A-

For MOST groups I feel my mage brings more to the table as most groups don’t need the extra necro perks. For odd groups necro is undeniably more potent. I think I’m mostly bitter that even a max summon EoT is underwhelming compared to 57 earth, 59 air or 60 water pet and it costs 10p per attempted summon.

If joining as strictly dps mage is strong. Necro is decent.

Maybe my opinion will change when necro is 60 and has demi lich.

[Jimjam]

Normally people chose to play a necro if they want a pet class and an involved play style.

I suspect this means you are less likely to have a 'pet in sub 70%' caster if the group chooses necro over Mage. Necromancer also plugs gaps where others are inattentive.

In a balanced, attentive group pick an attentive Mage. Of course Netflix precludes that as anything other than hypothetical!

[Legidias]

Necros can fear, mages cant. Fear is the most effective way of tanking a mob, so, necros can help tank a mob much better than (earth pet) mage can.

[loramin]

Mages were broken on release, and Verant nerfed or just ignored them for years after as a result (see the Mage epic if you actually want further proof).

Play a mage for the first six months on Green to feel like a god as you level up while getting 100% XP from your pet kills ... and then put that leveled up Mage on a shelf to wait until he's needed for CotHs, and go play something, because for the rest of the P99 era they're just not as good as other classes (with Necros being the most obvious/direct comparison).

[Jimjam]

Mage to 50. grab a wqs from CoM on Kunark release, reroll monk.

[Troxx]

It’s a shame most mages are coth bot alts. For what the class is designed to do it’s an exceptionally potent class. As said before, the only classes that can consistently do more are charmed pets buffed, quadding, and hasted. Tunare/epic rogues are highly competitive but I can generally hold steady with them, beat them by a bit, or lose to them by a bit. My epic/SoM 59 monk fully buffed with 34% worn haste couldn’t keep up with my mage as soon as she got 57 earth pet. In general my mage usually pulls 50% more dps than my monk with standard buffs. Buffed to the gills the mage is still 20-35% higher consistently.

It’s a strong class that is under-represented at the high end.

[NegaStoat]

Mages were broken on release, and Verant nerfed or just ignored them for years after as a result (see the Mage epic if you actually want further proof).

Play a mage for the first six months on Green to feel like a god as you level up while getting 100% XP from your pet kills ... and then put that leveled up Mage on a shelf to wait until he's needed for CotHs, and go play something, because for the rest of the P99 era they're just not as good as other classes (with Necros being the most obvious/direct comparison).

Completely agree. If Green launches with an attractive rules set and staff support, my plan was Wood Elf druid to 35 (possibly 39), then Magician to 50. I might take the druid to 19 for basic self ports and then focus on the Magician entirely after that. The moment Kunark launches, Iksar necro all the way.

I have no hate for the Mage class. If you're able to stick it out, the DPS you can crank out at the end is attractive. Hell, the damage you put out during the entire ride is attractive. But necro utility and their overall spellbook is so completely overwhelming in comparison, and that's before we even add the Iksar regen into the picture.

[Crede]

Necro > mage all day, unless you want to afk in groups and watch netflix.

Although twinking a mage with OP Thurg/SS robe clicky sounds fun at lvl 5.

[Tecmos Deception]

No mention of malo spells as a pro for mage?

Also, did you only ever play in full groups? I see no mention of solo, duo, etc.

I feel like you've understated the strengths of a necro relative to a mage by tunnel visioning on DPS comparisons in balanced groups. Writing off root, snare, fear, mez, self heals, heals, mana regen, feign, harmshield, ivu, dot efficiency, all as basically "great utility but often not needed" seems to miss the mark to me.

[Troxx]

I don't feel I understated necros. Overall grade for necro and ability to make/break group was rated way higher. In a well balanced group necros just lack the same umph. In a group lacking in any way, necros can easily rise the demi-god status.

[Bristlebaner]

What would you say the gap is between 59 necro pet and 57 earth?

[Crede]

What would you say the gap is between 59 necro pet and 57 earth?

Dpswise earth pet should win out slightly, but the tanking difference will be night and day. Earth pet caps out at 1 level higher as well. Unless you can get the necro focus item, that should make them basically even in dps.

[Troxx]

What would you say the gap is between 59 necro pet and 57 earth?

Max EoT is 1 level lower with a max hit of 61
57 Earth is 1 level higher and a max hit of 70

That's not slightly different; that's big.

Most of the dps comes from autoattack which is 13% higher for earth pet. Being one level higher it will also hit higher more consistently and miss less frequently. My experience is earth pet is a good 15-20% or more higher base dps, more for the earth pet assuming mage pet has summon haste mask and EoT does not. Biggest frustration is that resummoning EoT is 10p per try while a malachite is what ... 2 copper? With mage I always roll with max pet. At a peridot per try it's generally best to stop with 'good enough' though sometimes you luck out with a max. Earth pet is a lot more durable even though it only has 500 more hp than max EoT.

Superior mage dps comes from superior pet dps. Mage nukes are more efficient but lich regen actually lets necro actually put out more raw (or more or less even dps if mage has c2) DD dmg over time with touch of night.

For both classes the lion's share of damage dealt over time boils down to the pet; not the caster.

[NegaStoat]

If you're willing to go the distance to reach 60 and get the Water focus staff off of Phinny, which honestly isn't that hard in the big scheme of things... The level 60 water pet is doing 2 less max damage per pass in comparison to the best earth pet, but doesn't cast root with the 240 backstab going off as well. And with the staff, it's beefy as hell.

Been there, done that on retail. It was a real crowd pleaser since the Epic was locked down on Fennin Ro by top guilds during the time I played. On the retail server I compared the best water summon focused with the staff versus an EoT and the emissary tried hard but fell wayyyy short. Sadly, I think P1999 kneecapped the EoT from how it performed on Retail in overall hit % so Mages look even better here because of it. Actually, thinking it over, the Water pet was 1 level higher than the EoT I tested against and I recall that while we both had the same pet haste % of 65 from our spells, I had the muzzle for 11% more on top of that. It only makes sense the EoT lost out hard, and I might be mistaken about P1999 nerfing the EoT. All that said though, the Necro can still charm in zones that allow it, and that is a game changer for sure.

[Zuranthium]

Mage is fun because of the sheer brute force power and the ease of playing it. Being able to command the most powerful pet in the game (among ones that don't attack you) and cast big damage spells, is a very satisfying combination. Mage damage spells were actually sometimes more powerful than Wizard ones, and more fun, because they kept getting Bolt spells up through the high levels, while Wizards stopped getting them at Level 16. This is strange and really the opposite of how it should be, but alas.

Mage damage shield is very strong too and needs to be included when talking about the DPS this class creates. They have a limited focus but are extremely good at that function. It's a shame they have a steep power decrease against many raid targets, since their damage spells hardly ever land in those scenarios (and pre-Velious their pets get feared away). Basically makes it so you just need 1 Mage on those raids to summon mod rods before the fight, or do CoTH, and any other Mages are inferior (or even outright useless) to having another class instead.

However fun and effective the Mage can be though, Necromancers are simply more powerful the majority of the time. They can generate excellent DPS (while similarly struggling in raid scenarios) and their skillset is SO much wider. Because of having superior mana regen, their pure direct-damage efficiency is usually better than a Mage's, even when the Necro isn't able to use their DoT's to maximum effect. It's not as viscerally thrilling, but it's effective. Mage should still pull ahead on DPS for general group content where a Necro can't charm (when considering the Damage Shield), but it's not that big of a difference, and they are giving up a LOT.

There is a brief period of time in the Classic EQ timeline where I would say Mage does maybe surpass Necro as a "power class", and that's pre-Kunark era, when their pets are finally given the ability to dual-wield. For that short period of time, they are now unquestionably the best DPS in the game for Plane of Sky, which is the highest end content in the game at that point. However, Necros are still very good there as well, because both classes' pets are crazy strong pre-Kunark.

Play a mage for the first six months on Green to feel like a god as you level up while getting 100% XP from your pet kills

You need to outdamage the pet to get 100% XP if you're playing solo. Was always like that until post-Velious.

[Canelek]

I forget how it was on live, but on P99, you would get 100% experience regardless of pet % damage until it was patched to its current state. I'm sure someone here can cite when that patch occurred.

[Zuranthium]

Previously on p99, you had to do 1 point of damage or else the pet would take 75% exp (is what people told me when started here). That's the change that went in for Luclin era, so it makes sense p99 had that coding, until they fixed it to classic-era. The p99 change happened October 23rd 2011.

[Raev]

I definitely agree that Magicians are underrated here. I would guess that a BIS mage (epic, velketor boots) beats a BIS rogue for damage as long as resists aren't too bad!

Your 'in a balanced group, necromancers aren't that great' is somewhat tautological, though. After all, the same argument holds for Warriors or Clerics. For a necro to be effective, they have to be either charming, pulling, or healing. In my experience my Necromancer is surprisingly effective in undead dungeons in a kind of bard style charm/split/pull pseudo soloing role. You can kind of imagine how it works. It takes a bit of time for groups to figure it out, as practically no one plays this way.

That being said, going LFG on a Necromancer is brutal. The only tells I get are people saying they'd rather keep LFG than play with me! In the end Necros really need Luclin: Mind Wrack, Zevfeer's Theft, dot stacking, focus items, etc. It will never happen, but I think back porting the focus effects and adding the Blessed Coldain Prayer Shawl would really help balance late Velious.

[Kawhi]

Every time I lose 60 on my necro, I get the painful reminder of just how much better Demi Lich is than Lich. The difference between a 59 necro and a 60 necro is substantial because of it.

[Tecmos Deception]

Your 'in a balanced group, necromancers aren't that great' is somewhat tautological, though. After all, the same argument holds for Warriors or Clerics.

Yeah, I had this sort of thing in my head too.


I don't feel I understated necros. Overall grade for necro and ability to make/break group was rated way higher. In a well balanced group necros just lack the same umph. In a group lacking in any way, necros can easily rise the demi-god status.

That's fair I guess. I think we just have different emphases on p99. You compare these classes based on full groups, considering "odd" groups to be the exception not the norm. I consider them in the context that a lot of players spend a lot of time solo, duo, trio, or in "imperfect" full groups, or in well-balanced groups but where SHTF sometimes still in ways the necro can help with but the mage can't.

Like you said, it's your experience with them, so that's fine. I just had a hard time believing that your experience with each of these classes revolved so totally around full groups. Maybe it's just my bias for smaller content. I probably solod my p99 clerics more than most people solo their chanters and necros... lol

[Jimjam]

I know my ranger loves to duo with necromancers.

For starters they can Rez! On top and of that I can boost their regen, helping them gather mana to Rez more quickly!

And they love the buffs I can drop in their pets; boosting tanking and dps while they wait for me to recover from dieing!

I thought mages were cool until I got a tolan's bracer.

[Crede]

If you haven’t noticed yet, troxx churns out 60s mostly in KC. So yes, mages will be king there. To those of us who have spent a few hours tops in KC in all of p99, and who prefer soloing with some fun duo/trio mixed in, then necro wins 100% of the time.

IMO mage is best as a farm class at higher levels. Start clearing dungeons and summon WR bags. I’ve heard of people pulling 2-4K an hour this way. If you want to do big dps and be relevant in raids, just play a rogue.

[jolanar]

Start clearing dungeons and summon WR bags. I’ve heard of people pulling 2-4K an hour this way.

Really doubt 2k+ per hour is a sustainable number.

[Nycon43]

Can you still do that after they nerfed the ore drops? I figured that method of farming died with that nerf.

[Jimjam]

If you haven’t noticed yet, troxx churns out 60s mostly in KC. So yes, mages will be king there. To those of us who have spent a few hours tops in KC in all of p99, and who prefer soloing with some fun duo/trio mixed in, then necro wins 100% of the time.

IMO mage is best as a farm class at higher levels. Start clearing dungeons and summon WR bags. I’ve heard of people pulling 2-4K an hour this way. If you want to do big dps and be relevant in raids, just play a rogue.

People over estimate or straight up lie about numbers all the time.

[Crede]

People over estimate or straight up lie about numbers all the time.

Not denying this, but don’t underestimate how many people keep their pp farming secrets to themselves.

Someone give me a high level mage account and I’ll gladly test this and split the profits!

[Troxx]

Yeah, I had this sort of thing in my head too.




That's fair I guess. I think we just have different emphases on p99. You compare these classes based on full groups, considering "odd" groups to be the exception not the norm. I consider them in the context that a lot of players spend a lot of time solo, duo, trio, or in "imperfect" full groups, or in well-balanced groups but where SHTF sometimes still in ways the necro can help with but the mage can't.

Like you said, it's your experience with them, so that's fine. I just had a hard time believing that your experience with each of these classes revolved so totally around full groups. Maybe it's just my bias for smaller content. I probably solod my p99 clerics more than most people solo their chanters and necros... lol

My experience has been that necros are fantastically overpowered. Most of the groups I have been in have not been full. The other day a warrior, wizard and I crawled down to ABC and downed a few names on nothing but my heals, cc, pulls, and mez. No other class could have managed this so flawlessly other than torpor shaman.

For the standard “I’m lfg” scenario, ironically of the classes I’ve played this is the hardest to land an invite with. When the invite happens it’s usually to a full group where I’m more or less in dps mode. For that singular purpose, unless charming, the real umph is just lacking.

On the flip side I can usually piece together a duo/trio with most anyone.

I look forward to Demi-lich.

[Troxx]

If you haven’t noticed yet, troxx churns out 60s mostly in KC. So yes, mages will be king there. To those of us who have spent a few hours tops in KC in all of p99, and who prefer soloing with some fun duo/trio mixed in, then necro wins 100% of the time.

You have no idea where or how I “churn out” my 60s.

Precisely one of them spent significant time in KC 55+. That one hit 60 in KC soloing basement (paladin).

Troxx bard hit 60 in SG
Bedavir Warrior in paebala DN
Mage and shaman in Seb.
Druid in WW.

I know it’s your generally your style but there’s no need to be an inflammatory hemorrhoid Crede.

Have we even ever played together in game?

[Raev]

I finally got a group, MNK/SHM/NEC (and a Paladin after a bit) and after a little faux pas to begin (EEs - 1) we averaged over 1 kill per minute, and that was at the relatively high level Hand/BG camp. Hopefully Crede will not give me a dose of his KC elitism! I do need to get another HS key, though.

Also, I think the point Tecmos and I are trying to make is that 2-4 man groups where Necros shine provide the best loot, the best XP, and by far the most fun. Which is why it continues to baffle me how literally no one wants to group with my poor baby Necro.

P.S. nice to see Troxx is finally cleaning up his signature. Next is a few months in HOT every night . . . .

[Wallicker]

I LOVE duoing with a necro on my bard, there is so much you can do

[Wallicker]

Monk + necro w/rogue pets seems super legit too

[Troxx]

P.S. nice to see Troxx is finally cleaning up his signature. Next is a few months in HOT every night . . . .

Necro now has 30% to go. Monk has been at 90% forever. I really wanted to hold off on hitting 60 until final patch but we’ll see.

[enjchanter]

WTB earth staff