Heard that velious will be the last expansion, is this true?

[Ankiilbiter]

Heard this the other night in a group I was with. Is this a "set in stone" deal or is this just a proposed stopping point?

I'm still happy with what the server provides, but it would be sad to know I won't be able to enjoy the Plane of Time or Vex Thall =/

[rugerx]

Dat's da fact Jack.

[Trude]

It better be!?

[baalzy]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31014

Luclin definitely won't be put in. Velious is the planned stopping point but Nilbog hints that there may be custom development after this point.

But thats just speculation, Velious *most likely* will be the stopping point of this server however.

[Zadrian]

Someone actually enjoyed Vex Thall?

Down with the Blobs!

[beaon]

POP was the transition from "content blocked by content" to "content blocked by key". This key concept found in POP required players and guilds to sacrifice an exorbitant amount of time fighting the same content over and over to key their members. The time wasted on keying guildies meant less time enjoying other aspects of the game. Players were expected to sacrifice and commit substantial amounts of RL time just to get properly keyed. The game no longer was about skill, gearing, and strategy but only about how many people you could get to login every single night of the week. (It became more of a task/job then anything else. Prior to POP being a casual raider was entirely feasible. During POP being a casual raiding guild was much more difficult. Causal players in general were filtered out of high end raiding guilds and only those players who could offer the most time raiding were able to progress. This meant that even non-casual gamers who enjoyed other aspects of the game had to sacrifice those aspects just to key themselves.

Prior to POP content was blocked by strategy, skill, gear and generally content. This is what is meant by content blocked by content. To illustrate an example consider NTOV. You only had to to kill Aaryonar(One of the more formidable dragons) to gain access into into NTOV. For that matter TOV in general offered other opportunities aside from NTOV. West and East wing's had quests and each had a dragon of their own. Content prior to POP was not linear but allowed guilds and players to chose directions which suited them. The options were far more open. POP there was only 1 direction.

Prior to POP major key quests, like VP, were mostly an enjoyable single groupable quest. In general prior to POP key quests were mostly groupable, enjoyable, and fun. ST and VP key quests were short and sweet, raiding guilds could key people frequently and ST was not an end all be all raiding zone like TOV was(Which was completley open to anyone lvl 55+)

EQ prior to POP offered more then just raiding. Exping, grouping, exploring and questing were all highly rewarding. Qualitatively POP was a degredation from vellious and even luclin(which I still took some issues with).

In Kunark and Vellious end content is paralell offering saught after raid targets across zones globally. POP on the other hand was linear with everyone fighting in the same direction. Everyone fighting over the same key mobs. For example it's very common for NTOV equipped guild to still go back and do planar gods. In POP there was only 1 place anyone cared to be, Time. This meant that most raid targets after guilds were time keyed were left idle and unused as their loot was not as interesting and the time invested just to clear to worthy targets exceeded the reward.

Criticisms of POP vs Kunark/vellious could go on. Kunark Vellious offered zones like Old Seb, Crypt, Chardok, Crystal Caverns and so on and so forth. Single group encounters in Vellious/Kunark/Classic were top notch. Dungeon's were huge and elaborate(Think SOLB, and Old Seb). For the most part POP zones were not.

Luclin to an extent was bad enough with it's VT key quest and lack of good dungeon crawling but other then that the raid encounters prior to VT were fairly interesting. I am however completely content with Vellious being the last expansion. IMHO POP was a huge step back. It didn't add to the original game but took away from it and changed it.

You have to understand that EQ was a different game prior to POP/luclin. While you started EQ around that era you weren't playing the same game that many of us hold strong nostalgia over.

OFC this is all my opinion and it is how I feel about the matter. Take it for what it's worth.

[Maelstrom]

Classic, Kunark and Velious are largely considered to be the epitome of the Classic EQ experience. Thank you to Project 1999 for keeping that vision.

Don't forget, there are plenty of other servers that host those other expansions to get your fix!

[toddfx]

It's gonna be funny to see the hype already starting to build for Velious around here.

With all the talk and excitement of Kunark over the last 4+ months, I for one had completely forgotten about Velious or any other expansion for a while there.

[parlay1]

I hope it stops at Velious

[Qwinny]

I can feel myself being trained at AoW already....ahhhh.

[Swish]

So Underfoot isn't happening? :(

[Quasimojo]

One major drawback with PoP and the whole keying thing is that a guild roster is nearly frozen. Anyone who wasn't there for the keying finds it extremely difficult to get caught up. Once the majority of the guild is keyed, there is a strong and understandable urge to keep moving on. Repeating the keying content is the last thing they want to do.

[Ankiilbiter]

It's funny, I just read all of your replies and y'all complained about one thing: keying.

Not the content per se, not the Boss battles, not the exp'ing fun to be had, but the keying alone.

Maybe since this server is not ran by SOE, and isn't trying to find ways to make money, the developers could make changes to this system. I dunno, how about reducing the required % of those keyed in a given raid to say a reasonable 40% instead of the 90% i believe it was on live? Or getting rid of the keying all together and making it progression based like everyone else has stated was what they enjoyed.

I liked PoP, the boss battles were fun, the gear had amazing graphics, and even the zones had a fun flavor to them all. BoT was mega fun for instance, as was Plane of Time.

I'm ok with it ending in Velious, but I'll be switching classes because of it. I just think to be so closed minded as to what someone who is in charge of the coding/programming can do is foolhardy. The options are limitless...

Shoot, for all we know, we could see a "Sword of 1000 Truths" pop up out of nowhere... just kidding. Seriously though, y'all are thinking inside the square. Just like my ex, anytime something didn't work out she just pointed out why it didn't or couldn't, but never looked for the solutions that were right under her nose.

P.S. - GoD was the major ball buster in terms of being casual v. hardcore, not PoP.

[Daldaen]

PoP was actually the high time of their subscriptions. After GoD it steadily went down though.

[Tale]

Classic EQ, a fantasy world where fantasy creatures like giants, dragons and gods were the biggest foes, ended with Shadows of Luclin (the expansion after Velious) which was based on a moon with offworld civilisations. No more EC tunnel hijinks, just bots in the Bazaar.

Luclin also marked the departure of key EverQuest designers. Anyone who played 1999-2001 will tell you it wasn't the same after that. The pre-Luclin feel is what P1999 has successfully recreated.

As for Planes of Power, it cheapened the old world we had loved, by adding the Plane of Knowledge teleport books which removed all travel barriers.

[Kika Maslyaka]

yet it was PoP that brought in scripted raid encounters that were more than "tank and spank"
as for zones, Luclin had some of the most amazing dungeons - Greigs End, Deep, Ssra, VT (yeah the key part was insane, once you were past that it was ultra-cool).

Thought I agree "alien" looking netherians were out of place, but don't cross out entire expansion just because of them!
Same goes for PoP - yeah, screw the books, but the rest of it was great. And difficulty of obtaining PoP keys were not any harder (time investment wise) than doing NTOV over and over, gearing up your guild - thought loot of PoP gods were rather scares (VT was great for loot on other hand)

[Bassracerx]

i really want luclin to be available that expansion was so amazing and had lots of emersion to it and it also was great for the early levels and had lots of high and mid lvl content too.

[maegi]

just add instancing ....like Wow.../endthread

[Morlaeth]

Classic, Kunark and Velious are largely considered to be the epitome of the Classic EQ experience. Thank you to Project 1999 for keeping that vision.

Don't forget, there are plenty of other servers that host those other expansions to get your fix!

this

[Teeroyoyort]

Stopping at velious!

[danus]

Classic, Kunark and Velious are largely considered to be the epitome of the Classic EQ experience. Thank you to Project 1999 for keeping that vision.

I second this....I am all about keeping it classic and stopping with velious.

[gnomishfirework]

VT was not at all enjoyable. Ssra was far more fun.

VT was torture. So much trash to clear. I remember almost wiping once because people were falling asleep.


I agree with the person who said post Velious was a different game entirely. I never had the same level of fun after velious.

I did like raiding though. GoD was especially fun, but I never liked leveling after velious. I cant think of one dungeon I enjoyed half as much as seb. I remember tables in fire was like insane AA exp for me, but was so utterly boring.

Even the mid level velious dungeons are vastly superior to anything that came after.

I did like pulling in the outdoor zones in pop and omens. I can't think of any zones in GoD or DoN that I exped in. Not one. I quit shortly after DoN came out.

[Hmotzart]

just add instancing ....like Wow.../endthread

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I think I made my point..

Thanks P99 you brought me back to the best game ever made before it was ruined by all the winners who led the dev team down the path of bottlefed games such as wow. " I want the mob too, I don't want to wait my turn, NOW NOW NOW ME ME ME, its not fair I have to work for anything. "

That is all I hear when I read this.

I loved the first 2 expansions of everquest and think V would be a great point to stop this server.

[Wisemantobes]

just put bazaar in between ec and nro, and luclin suddenly becomes 50% less relevant rofl

[mwatt]

Keying and the consequential bifurcation of the player base was indeed the true beginning of the end of EQ. The lack of good sense in SOE management has never ceased to amaze me. Ya'll are also correct in decrying the destruction of the entire theme of the game by going to the moon. Really pathetic.

So I'm good with stopping at Velious. I will miss AA and a few choice zones however. I also, unaccountably, enjoyed LDONs a great deal. But this is far from the original vision and does not belong here.

[Humerox]

guineapig had an excellent post about how custom should be...it was ideas put together by quite a few folks...don't have time to look for it atm tho.

[Asher]

Heard this the other night in a group I was with. Is this a "set in stone" deal or is this just a proposed stopping point?

I'm still happy with what the server provides, but it would be sad to know I won't be able to enjoy the Plane of Time or Vex Thall =/

If you liked Luclin and PoP check out the EQMac server.

If I liked Luclin or PoP I will still be there.

Asher

[Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin]

When I read some of the first posts on this thread, I nearly choked on my coffee. I had thought about the same exact thing; new original content in place of Luclin/PoP!

Luclin/PoP didn't streamline with Kunark/Velious, they were just... different, as if the company had let go of everyone who made the original expansions and gave the task of creating new content to people who had never played the game since it's release.

I'd been a casual gamer at the time Luclin/PoP came out, and I never got to see Plane of Time or anything beyond what you needed to be keyed for; no raiding guild would take someone who wasn't on for five hours a day, six days a week.

....I want to see more Planes, more Gods, but I don't want to get to them easily by clicking on a Plane of Knowledge book and running my way there in 10 minutes. It takes at least 25 minutes for me to take the boats to Kunark, and I anticipate the adventure. I loved Plane of Mischief, how difficult it was to get there and how fun it was to try and figure out the castle, even though I never got past the big picture room on my own.

Anyway, in summary, I'll be glad if Velious is the last stop for Sony/Verant-made content :)

[Rael]

WTB Project 2001 after Velious.

[Dr4z3r]

yet it was PoP that brought in scripted raid encounters that were more than "tank and spank"

Kinda hard to have tank-and-spank encounters in classic with 2-3 guilds all rushing the target at once. It's more like spray-and-pray.

[guineapig]

guineapig had an excellent post about how custom should be...it was ideas put together by quite a few folks...don't have time to look for it atm tho. :D


http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11879&highlight=Adding+Planes+Power+original+trilogy

I still think it's a pretty neat concept somebody should attempt. Mostly shifting around and creating new zonelines for all the Planes while avoiding the moon and PoK completely. The way the Planes of power could have and should have been implemented.

[yaeger]

PoP definitely seemed to me to be the golden age of EQ raiding and inter-class balance.

Sony gave groups a large exp bonus so it made the game a lot more social and you saw a decline of solo classes on the server thus lots more groups and cooperation.

Keys were needed, however if I recall they had a 85% rule for raid content (only 85% of the 72 people in the raid had to be keyed, the other 15% could be brought in unkeyed to get flags or gear).

Raids were more challenging with tons more raiding content than ever. Probably more than all the previous expansions combined.

Classes seemed to fit their roles better than ever. With the buildup from Luclin the devs finally got a good balance between all the classes and clearly defined their roles.

On the downside, trivialized travel... again =/

[hedbonker]

Kinda hard to have tank-and-spank encounters in classic with 2-3 guilds all rushing the target at once. It's more like spray-and-pray.

Bind rush 4tw!

[moklianne]

I'd like to see up to PoP personally. The only caveat would be the removal of PoK books from all except a handfull of zones. Easy travel and easily getting your corpse back really destroyed the game.

I loved Velious the most, but also enjoyed Luclin and PoP. Expansions after that were pretty lackluster.

[eqravenprince]

I'm glad it is stopping at Velious. That is the golden age of EQ for me. Luclin and Planes of Power were fun in the same way that playing a game after you've entered cheat codes is fun. It's really fun for a short while, but then you find out that you had more fun doing things the hard challenging way.

Luclin issues - Bazaar, ports to a central location shrinking the world, Paludal Caverns, gay character models.

Planes of Power issues - more ports to a central location and didn't have to wait for them shrinking the world even more. Never got into raiding so I can't speak for keying that some people talk about, but it sounds like an issue. But then again keying was an issue starting with Kunark.

Lost Dungeons of Norrath - With dungeon instancing, it started feeling less like a world and more like a game. I don't remember any other expansions.

While this contradicts what I said earlier about keeping the game hard and challenging, I think the single biggest thing that I would actually change to classic through Velious is the ability for any class to bind anywhere and respawn with equipment. EQ2 actually did this mostly right, you respawned in the zone with your equipment. I don't mind having to run from Freeport to Qeynos, wait on boats, sit in EC watching the auction channel, super slow leveling, waiting LFG, but waiting for a bind and retrieving my corpse is not for me. But having to get a bind adds nothing to my fun and immersion. Having to retrieve my corpse adds zero to my fun as well, all it does is add to my stress and gives me a damn headache.

Anyhow, yay for it stopping at Velious.

[eqravenprince]

easily getting your corpse back really destroyed the game.


How does easily getting your corpse back destroy the game? Respawning without equipment has always been a pain point with me. There is absolutely nothing fun about retrieving a corpse.

[Darian]

No cats on my moon brah

[Qwinny]

As for Planes of Power, it cheapened the old world we had loved, by adding the Plane of Knowledge teleport books which removed all travel barriers.

I'm bound at Tim Deep Pots right now and it's not much different. I would assume most of anyone 20+ when Kunark came out did the same. I did the Tashania quest (essentially running to every city to pick up a coin) in under 2 hours. It would've been shorter, but I took the boat from Erudin to get to Qeynos, and they're bugged atm. I had to retrace back to Halas and get there that way. All in all, they always had plans, in my view, to make an easy 'central' travel destination that acted as a 'safe point' for everyone. I wouldn't argue that PoK was exactly what they were thinking, but the Tim Deep Pots are truly evidence of that.

As far as Luclin+ goes, I enjoyed it and PoP most because those were my first experiences with raiding. Getting through ST then eventually slowly getting all my keys, and downing bosses, in PoP, made me feel closer to being on a level with end game players I hadn't felt before. I think we all yearn for that time in our EQ gaming life. That's why we're all here.

[Qwinny]

just add instancing ....like Wow.../endthread

L.D.O.N.

[Kraftwerk]

How does easily getting your corpse back destroy the game? Respawning without equipment has always been a pain point with me. There is absolutely nothing fun about retrieving a corpse.

I disagree, retrieving corpses is fun to me for two reasons:

1) The actual retrieval, it can involve being sneaky, invisible, and solid understanding of zone and NPCs in zone. It can also involve soliciting help, creating ties with other players. It teaches responsibility and patience. You are forced to man up that you made a mistake and learn from it.

2) The heightened fun that comes with the risk of having to retrieve that corpse. When there is no punishment for dieing, who cares. If you crawl deep into a dungeon and start playing loose and fast you are risking a lot and it makes the game more enjoyable for me.

Spawning with full equipment is dull and takes fun out of the game. Corpse runs were and still are genius, may they stay forever.

[falkun]

L.D.O.N.

Couldn't stand those damn instances. I don't know how I enjoyed WOW for 3 years, probably the company.

I remember on the collection missions when they first come out that you could get crappy luck, clear EVERYTHING in the instance and not have enough drops to complete the quest/assignment/whatever its called. Talk about frustrating.

[eqravenprince]

I disagree, retrieving corpses is fun to me for two reasons:

1) The actual retrieval, it can involve being sneaky, invisible, and solid understanding of zone and NPCs in zone. It can also involve soliciting help, creating ties with other players. It teaches responsibility and patience. You are forced to man up that you made a mistake and learn from it.

2) The heightened fun that comes with the risk of having to retrieve that corpse. When there is no punishment for dieing, who cares. If you crawl deep into a dungeon and start playing loose and fast you are risking a lot and it makes the game more enjoyable for me.

Spawning with full equipment is dull and takes fun out of the game. Corpse runs were and still are genius, may they stay forever.

I can agree to that it does create additional responsibility and patience, too much I think. Losing experience and getting back to the group already creates responsibility and patience, but you add to it by having to do it without equipment. I would be agreeable to adding more experience lost if I could respawn with my equipment. There is nothing fun about a corpse retrieval, only a sigh of relief when you get all your hard earned equipment back.

[Massive Marc]

I disagree, retrieving corpses is fun to me for two reasons:

1) The actual retrieval, it can involve being sneaky, invisible, and solid understanding of zone and NPCs in zone. It can also involve soliciting help, creating ties with other players. It teaches responsibility and patience. You are forced to man up that you made a mistake and learn from it.

2) The heightened fun that comes with the risk of having to retrieve that corpse. When there is no punishment for dieing, who cares. If you crawl deep into a dungeon and start playing loose and fast you are risking a lot and it makes the game more enjoyable for me.

Spawning with full equipment is dull and takes fun out of the game. Corpse runs were and still are genius, may they stay forever.

I disagree completely.

1: Once you get passed all that knowledge you still have to get your corpse, which sucks. 1+ hours retrieving your corpse is shitty and bad game design.

2: There is a penalty in place, it's called Exp Loss.

Your type of fun sounds lame.

[Kraftwerk]

2: There is a penalty in place, it's called Exp Loss



When someone was lvl 50 w/ max exp or when they are lvl 60 w/ max exp the loss of a yellow bar on death becomes a marginal annoyance. Having to retrieve everything rather than just bam spawning with everything is the true penalty for dieing. Removing obstacles in game is a slippery slope and I find corpse retrieval to be in itself fun and the risk it poses enhances the fun in the rest of the game.

[eqravenprince]

When someone was lvl 50 w/ max exp or when they are lvl 60 w/ max exp the loss of a yellow bar on death becomes a marginal annoyance. Having to retrieve everything rather than just bam spawning with everything is the true penalty for dieing. Removing obstacles in game is a slippery slope and I find corpse retrieval to be in itself fun and the risk it poses enhances the fun in the rest of the game.

I'm surprised to hear people actually like corpse retrieval. Imagine you are a high level Warrior for a minute and don't have a permanent Cleric in your group. It is not fun to sit at a zone line waiting for your group member who can cast invis come back to get you. It is not fun to ask in /ooc for an invis after your group broke up after a group wipe. It is not fun when the invis wears off halfway to your corpse and you are trapped and probably going to die again. And in some cases where it is impossible to get your corpse back that night, it is not fun logging off without getting back to your corpse. None of that is fun, it is a timesink, that is all.

[Massive Marc]

I'm surprised to hear people actually like corpse retrieval. Imagine you are a high level Warrior for a minute and don't have a permanent Cleric in your group. It is not fun to sit at a zone line waiting for your group member who can cast invis come back to get you. It is not fun to ask in /ooc for an invis after your group broke up after a group wipe. It is not fun when the invis wears off halfway to your corpse and you are trapped and probably going to die again. And in some cases where it is impossible to get your corpse back that night, it is not fun logging off without getting back to your corpse. None of that is fun, it is a timesink, that is all.

Exactly. I can't think of one time in the last 10 years, when I'm like:

"I can't wait to go retrieve my corpse. It's the highlight of my night. It so very challenging and rewarding"

[yorumi]

I'm surprised to hear people actually like corpse retrieval. Imagine you are a high level Warrior for a minute and don't have a permanent Cleric in your group. It is not fun to sit at a zone line waiting for your group member who can cast invis come back to get you. It is not fun to ask in /ooc for an invis after your group broke up after a group wipe. It is not fun when the invis wears off halfway to your corpse and you are trapped and probably going to die again. And in some cases where it is impossible to get your corpse back that night, it is not fun logging off without getting back to your corpse. None of that is fun, it is a timesink, that is all.

Ok it's a timesink. So lets remove slow travel, make everything sold on merchants be 1cp, remove exp, make every monster have 100% chance to drop anything on it's loot table, and make everything soloable because finding a group can suck. I'm not sure I'd specifically call corpse retrieval something I like, but a game without pain is a very very very boring game.

[falkun]

Exactly. I can't think of one time in the last 10 years, when I'm like:

"I can't wait to go retrieve my corpse. It's the highlight of my night. It so very challenging and rewarding"

You are looking at corpse retrieval the wrong way. A CR is:
1) A crappy experience that takes way too long to be over and involves jumping through too many hoops.
2) An experience that when avoided by some miracle (gogo CC!, joining the purple CH club, etc.), makes that miracle THAT much more spectacular.

I'm not going to argue that the CR sucks, but if you keep pulling the bad apples off of the tree, eventually you won't even have good ones left to eat.

[Massive Marc]

Ok it's a timesink. So lets remove slow travel, make everything sold on merchants be 1cp, remove exp, make every monster have 100% chance to drop anything on it's loot table, and make everything soloable because finding a group can suck. I'm not sure I'd specifically call corpse retrieval something I like, but a game without pain is a very very very boring game.

You are looking at corpse retrieval the wrong way. A CR is:
1) A crappy experience that takes way too long to be over and involves jumping through too many hoops.
2) An experience that when avoided by some miracle (gogo CC!, joining the purple CH club, etc.), makes that miracle THAT much more spectacular.

I'm not going to argue that the CR sucks, but if you keep pulling the bad apples off of the tree, eventually you won't even have good ones left to eat.


This slippery slope bullshit is exactly that... bullshit.

[falkun]

This slippery slope bullshit is exactly that... bullshit.

No. Its not. The majority of people play P99 to return to times when things were difficult. If they wanted a game where the CR was easy, they'd go play WoW. It truely is the little things that ARE difficult that make classic Everquest the MMO that other MMOs just cannot live up to.

[Massive Marc]

No. Its not. The majority of people play P99 to return to times when things were difficult. If they wanted a game where the CR was easy, they'd go play WoW. It truely is the little things that ARE difficult that make classic Everquest the MMO that other MMOs just cannot live up to.

Yah, because corpse retrieval is the ground breaking deal maker for people to play Everquest. That's why it was voted OUT on Fippy, right ?

GTFO.

[Kraftwerk]

Yah, because corpse retrieval is the ground breaking deal maker for people to play Everquest. That's why it was voted OUT on Fippy, right ?

GTFO.

The people on Fippy also cried to the GMs and had three Lady Vox spawned, one for each raid. I wouldn't use them as one of your references.

[Massive Marc]

My point still stands, no one but you likes CR. It was voted OUT by the largest population of Everquest players.

[One Tin Soldier]

You are looking at corpse retrieval the wrong way. A CR is:
1) A crappy experience that takes way too long to be over and involves jumping through too many hoops.
2) An experience that when avoided by some miracle (gogo CC!, joining the purple CH club, etc.), makes that miracle THAT much more spectacular.

I'm not going to argue that the CR sucks, but if you keep pulling the bad apples off of the tree, eventually you won't even have good ones left to eat.

I agree.

Corpse retrieval sucks because it's supposed to suck. Nobody likes doing corpse runs and that's the whole point.

Imagine that the devs caved in to people who don't want CR's or experience loss or any other unpleasantness. What would the game be like? Your group gets wiped and you respawn next to your bodies with a 10 minute immunty and no experience loss so you can loot up and get rebuffed and back into the fighting with no hassle, wouldn't that be great?

No, I don't think it would be. When a fight is touch and go there would be no tension or excitement or fear. There would be no rush of relief when you do pull your butts out of the fire. If you die it would be /shrug and right back at it.

I mean, sure, it would be more convenient. But it would also make the game incredably boring. Let's be honest here, the only real excitement when you are grinding out experience comes in those moments when things are going wrong and then it's only exciting because dying is unpleasant. Take that away and what's left? They might as well but in a /level command to let us all jump to max level and then we could all quit and they could shut down the server.

[Massive Marc]

I agree.

Corpse retrieval sucks because it's supposed to suck. Nobody likes doing corpse runs and that's the whole point.

Imagine that the devs caved in to people who don't want CR's or experience loss or any other unpleasantness. What would the game be like? Your group gets wiped and you respawn next to your bodies with a 10 minute immunty and no experience loss so you can loot up and get rebuffed and back into the fighting with no hassle, wouldn't that be great?

No, I don't think it would be. When a fight is touch and go there would be no tension or excitement or fear. There would be no rush of relief when you do pull your butts out of the fire. If you die it would be /shrug and right back at it.

I mean, sure, it would be more convenient. But it would also make the game incredably boring. Let's be honest here, the only real excitement when you are grinding out experience comes in those moments when things are going wrong and then it's only exciting because dying is unpleasant. Take that away and what's left? They might as well but in a /level command to let us all jump to max level and then we could all quit and they could shut down the server.

They have a name for that. It's called: Bad Game Design.

ROFL, I can't... I don't believe CR is the reason people come to play Everquest, or that it even enters in to their mind. I also disagree that the only excitement involved in grinding exp is, the chance you might have to do a hour long corpse run. The excitement for ME, is a chance at loot, being able to learn my character better, enjoying the group experience. Basically everything BUT corpse runs.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I agree.

Corpse retrieval sucks because it's supposed to suck. Nobody likes doing corpse runs and that's the whole point.

Imagine that the devs caved in to people who don't want CR's or experience loss or any other unpleasantness. What would the game be like? Your group gets wiped and you respawn next to your bodies with a 10 minute immunty and no experience loss so you can loot up and get rebuffed and back into the fighting with no hassle, wouldn't that be great?

No, I don't think it would be. When a fight is touch and go there would be no tension or excitement or fear. There would be no rush of relief when you do pull your butts out of the fire. If you die it would be /shrug and right back at it.

I mean, sure, it would be more convenient. But it would also make the game incredably boring. Let's be honest here, the only real excitement when you are grinding out experience comes in those moments when things are going wrong and then it's only exciting because dying is unpleasant. Take that away and what's left? They might as well but in a /level command to let us all jump to max level and then we could all quit and they could shut down the server.

you mixing apples and oranges here.
No one said remove Xp penalty on death or add 10 min Immune timer, or re-spawn right outside where you killed.
The talk was about CR ONLY - which is dumb.
You can argue all you want that it adds difficulty to the game, but what it adds in reality is a time-sink full of frustration

It doesn't make say killing Nagafen any more difficult, it only makes it running back every time more annoying.

[beaon]

PoP definitely seemed to me to be the golden age of EQ raiding and inter-class balance.


I would argue that you weren't in a good raiding guild in vellious. But you'd prolly say I was wrong.

As far as raid entertainment goes Vellious raid encounters were top notch. There is nothing in POP that was any more entertaining or more fun. If anything it was just more mind nullifying, boring, and headbashingly annoying.

[beaon]

To those who want to go past vellious perhaps you could figure out a to have your char's copied to another server starting at luclin. But I for one am here because this is EQ Classic ending at vellious. I hope it stays that way.

And to the dude arguing against CRing. One of the things that made EQ stand out was the risk factor involved in so many aspects of the game. Wowifying it didn't add to EQclassic. It took it away. You may argue tthat it was an improvement but as I stated before that is a different game. Not what classic EQers generally look for.

[azeth]

As far as raid entertainment goes Vellious raid encounters were top notch.

Except for AoW's incredible pwning ability the bulk of these encounters were tank n spank + resists. EQ definitely stepped up the fights during raids in PoP imo.

Velious was still the best expansion, just sayin.

[Massive Marc]

Except for AoW's incredible pwning ability the bulk of these encounters were tank n spank + resists. EQ definitely stepped up the fights during raids in PoP imo.

Velious was still the best expansion, just sayin.

To bad you wont be playing it :/ OR WILL YOU....

[azeth]

naw i wont, bummer :\ but I still love EQ, wish i was 14 again with infinite time.

[yorumi]

They have a name for that. It's called: Bad Game Design.

ROFL, I can't... I don't believe CR is the reason people come to play Everquest, or that it even enters in to their mind. I also disagree that the only excitement involved in grinding exp is, the chance you might have to do a hour long corpse run. The excitement for ME, is a chance at loot, being able to learn my character better, enjoying the group experience. Basically everything BUT corpse runs.

Well you're totally wrong, there are people who think about corpse runs and I'm one of them. There's a huge difference between "oh no I died guess I'm not running around there anymore" and "oh shit I might lose my corpse and be freaken screwed." I like that aspect of the game, it added real danger to zones. You may not like it but you are not everyone stop thinking you are.

you mixing apples and oranges here.
No one said remove Xp penalty on death or add 10 min Immune timer, or re-spawn right outside where you killed.
The talk was about CR ONLY - which is dumb.
You can argue all you want that it adds difficulty to the game, but what it adds in reality is a time-sink full of frustration

If the argument is that it's a timesink then you can use that argument for any and every time sink. Which is what most if not all of the current mmos do. This is why mmos are the way they are "it's a time sink remove it" is repeated over and over and over and we get the current generation of easy mode mmos, think about how pathetic mmos are that by comparison eq is hard. If someone can come up with no better argument for removing something than "its a time sink" then you have no foundation to stand on.

[beaon]

AOW, Original Tunare(Hardest encounter in vellious IMHO), CT, Dain, Yelinak, Aaryonar, Lord Vyemm(Hardest encounter in TOV IMHO). All of the kunark dragons using aoe fear ect. Many of these encounters are memorable, challenging, and interesting.

And sure there were tank and spank mobs. Thinks like King Tormax, Statue of RallosZek and many of the dragons in TOV with weak aoe's. And I'm sure you could think of others.

But by and large it can be easily argued that many of the encounters in vellious/kunark were very interesting, challenging, different, and memorable. Shit Cazic Thule was old world and he was fun/interesting clear through vellious.

It's an opinion of mine(Only an opinion) that many encounters in POP were tedious and nuanced. Additionally you ALWAYS had to clear a gigantic zone just to nearly wipe to a mob that dropped only 2 items of shitty loot.

IMHO SoL made encounters more interesting(Discounting VT). But when I think of Emp encounter, Cursed encounter, and that wurm in the deep. I think of those things as adding to interesting factors of EQ. But when I think of POP gods, not so much. Spending 3 hours to clear a zone just to kill a mob doesn't sound like fun to me. Especially when the loot is sub-par. And lets be honest with our selves. People didn't do plains encounters for the fun or even the loot of it. They did it for time keys. That was it.

On the flip side during vellious all of vellious raid content, and much of kunark and classic content was frequently raided for it's loot and the fun of it. Point being that the encounters were still memorable and the loot was competitive, even if 3 expansions old.

However a time keyed guild had no reason to raid outside of potime. That meant much of the raid content prior went left idle.

ofc all of these are opinions. Your obviuosly welcome to agree to disagree.

What I have observed is people who came up in EQ during the POP era vehemothly defend the expansion. That is great, it is great you love POP. The point I am making is that it is a different game. It is not EQ classic. It is not what classic EQ goers want.

[azeth]

yea the emp ssra fight was incredible if you did it relatively per progression with appropriate gear. i think on RN we dropped him with 30ish people our first time around and we were barely in deep NToV gear. Also, in regard to the Tunare fight - my guild unfortunately was informed of the Ogre wall tactic prior to giving her a shot on our own so it was pretty trivial.

edit: im positive emp ssra dropped that beastly sword x2 on our kill too.

[One Tin Soldier]

you mixing apples and oranges here.
No one said remove Xp penalty on death or add 10 min Immune timer, or re-spawn right outside where you killed.
The talk was about CR ONLY - which is dumb.
You can argue all you want that it adds difficulty to the game, but what it adds in reality is a time-sink full of frustration

It doesn't make say killing Nagafen any more difficult, it only makes it running back every time more annoying.

I may be mixing apples and oranges but you are setting up straw men so you can knock them down. I never said corpse runs add difficulty. I said CRs suck. I said they are supposed to suck.

As you said, all a CR really amounts to is a time sink. That being the case maybe I wasn't mixing apples and oranges after all. Experience loss is a just a time sink as well. And if you don't spawn right beside your bodies the only other option to eliminate CRs is to spawn with all your loot. Ok, where do you respawn? At the nearest town? At the dungeon entrance or zone line? If you don't respawn right were you where you would have to run back (assuming you want to keep fighting there) and OMG that's a time sink.

The crux of this whole argument is whether or not death should hurt enough to make people dislike dying. It's all just a matter of degrees. In my opinion, if dying isn't painfull enough to upset you at least a little then it isn't painfull enough. Dying should be unpleasant. People should hate it when it happens.

[beaon]

Well you're totally wrong, there are people who think about corpse runs and I'm one of them. There's a huge difference between "oh no I died guess I'm not running around there anymore" and "oh shit I might lose my corpse and be freaken screwed." I like that aspect of the game, it added real danger to zones. You may not like it but you are not everyone stop thinking you are.



If the argument is that it's a timesink then you can use that argument for any and every time sink. Which is what most if not all of the current mmos do. This is why mmos are the way they are "it's a time sink remove it" is repeated over and over and over and we get the current generation of easy mode mmos, think about how pathetic mmos are that by comparison eq is hard. If someone can come up with no better argument for removing something than "its a time sink" then you have no foundation to stand on.

@Massive Mark
Look some people think playing grand turismo is dumb. But thats a subjective preference, devoid of objective fact. Your preference on CR's is the same. Making CR's go away is not classic, its a different game. :) Whether or not it's good or bad game design is up to debate.

The good new is that you are not the sole arbiter of what is and is not good game design.

[Massive Marc]

Well you're totally wrong, there are people who think about corpse runs and I'm one of them. There's a huge difference between "oh no I died guess I'm not running around there anymore" and "oh shit I might lose my corpse and be freaken screwed." I like that aspect of the game, it added real danger to zones. You may not like it but you are not everyone stop thinking you are.

Ok ?...

Good for you, you are part of a small minority of people that would rather CR, then play the actual game.

If the argument is that it's a timesink then you can use that argument for any and every time sink. Which is what most if not all of the current mmos do. This is why mmos are the way they are "it's a time sink remove it" is repeated over and over and over and we get the current generation of easy mode mmos, think about how pathetic mmos are that by comparison eq is hard. If someone can come up with no better argument for removing something than "its a time sink" then you have no foundation to stand on.

The difference is, when you're in a timesink exp grind/loot grind/raid grind.. any other timesink in this game, you are actually PLAYING the game. Notice how I haven't brought up ANY OTHER aspect of game play except for CR. That's because everything else you do in game besides a CR is for some kinda gain.

You have gotten better at Corpse Retrieval (3)

EDIT: fucking quote fail.

[beaon]

If your argument is that only things that give immediate or frequent rewards then why have difficult encounters at all? Why add the risk at all? Only give players rewards at every possible interval of gaming? Why even have death at all?

I suspect you will change your reasoning on us now. :)

[Massive Marc]

@Massive Mark
Look some people think playing grand turismo is dumb. But thats a subjective preference, devoid of objective fact. Your preference on CR's is the same. Making CR's go away is not classic, its a different game. :) Whether or not it's good or bad game design is up to debate.

The good new is that you are not the sole arbiter of what is and is not good game design.


When the cons outweigh the pros , it's bad game design, which SOE was notorious for.

[beaon]

When the cons outweigh the pros , it's bad game design, which SOE was notorious for.

In your opinion.

[Massive Marc]

If your argument is that only things that give immediate or frequent rewards then why have difficult encounters at all? Why add the risk at all? Only give players rewards at every possible interval of gaming? Why even have death at all?

I suspect you will change your reasoning on us now. :)

The difficulty of a encounter has no baring on a corpse run. NONE.

[Massive Marc]

In your opinion.

Not just my opinion....

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21350

[yorumi]

When the cons outweigh the pros , it's bad game design, which SOE was notorious for.

You know soe didn't put corpse runs in, and in fact they were the ones that took them out right?

Secondly you might want to learn the difference between fact and opinion. At some point you have to make decisions that not everyone agrees with, some games even reject majority rule in favor of the vision and don't mind targeting a game at a specific audience. Your entire argument boils down to "I don't like it so take it out," well too bad.

[beaon]

The difficulty of a encounter has no baring on a corpse run. NONE.

Your argument was that it offered no reward. I can think of many aspects of the game that don't offer immediate rewards. If we followed your logic we'd remove anything in that category.

To be frank it sounds like you haven't given this beyond a 2 seconds thought. Furthermore your perpetuating more opinion as if it meant something. There are lots of people who don't like classic EQ. They aren't here. There are lots of people who don't like Grand Turismo. That doesn't mean it's a bad game.

Consider your reasoning a bit more(Or lack there of).

[Kika Maslyaka]

If the argument is that it's a timesink then you can use that argument for any and every time sink. Which is what most if not all of the current mmos do. This is why mmos are the way they are "it's a time sink remove it" is repeated over and over and over and we get the current generation of easy mode mmos, think about how pathetic mmos are that by comparison eq is hard. If someone can come up with no better argument for removing something than "its a time sink" then you have no foundation to stand on.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exuper

[Kika Maslyaka]

The difficulty of a encounter has no baring on a corpse run. NONE.

100% http://www.project1999.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif ;)

[baalzy]

The difficulty of a encounter has no baring on a corpse run. NONE.

Until people bind near a raid mob and rush it constantly at full gear with no rez effects.

Then get a cleric to click-stick them however many times is needed after the raid.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Until people bind near a raid mob and rush it constantly at full gear with no rez effects.

Then get a cleric to click-stick them however many times is needed after the raid.

again you exaggerating.
There is is a difference between not having your items rot on your corpse and "instant gratification" which you claim will follow in any other case, while there is in fact a huge range of OTHER things in between.

EQ1 is great simply because it was first, and for the longest time "the only" and one of a kind. So was the first automobile, yet 100 years of improvements have shown that we can do A LOT better.

Just look as something simple as BIND - do you find its fair that casters could Invis, Bind and Gate almost anywhere they like, while as melee it was a major pain to get anywhere, like traveling from Qeynos to Freeport, and than stand at the gates crying for 3 hours trying to get a freaken Bind? (No, I don't mind the TRAVEL, what I do mind, is being unable to get a bind, while others can with no effort)

How about cash generating spells which some classes get while others don't? Why should wizards and druids rank in plat for their class ability like ports, while rest of us have to live of scraps trying to buy that dem banded or bronze?
Again, I am not asking to give every class a teleport, and yes PoK books did SUCK, but then why wizards and druids get a free port them? Make port spell use a reagent which costs 50-100plat - then let those suckers walk if they don't want to spend it! (my main on live was a druid btw =P)

How does it fair when enchanter can sit and cast Clarity whole day, pulling cash out of thin air essentially for no effort?
And what should warriors, sk, palies do? "/auction 45 warrior LFG! Will tank for plat!"

The list of things that COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BETTER, but WITHOUT turning into "instant gratification" can go on and on.

Yes, admit, things like that were not immediately obvious back them. But this doesn't mean they not relevant now, when we can look back at 10 years of development and see what turned out to be for better and what for worse.

[baalzy]

I should be playing EZ Server where all of my gripes about classic are taken care of.


Shortened that for ya.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I am mentally challenged so long paragraphs are too difficult for me to read and understand.

I completely agree!

[baalzy]

I completely agree!

Let me sum it up.

You think it's stupid that classes get abilities that can be used to generate income because the benefits of those abilities for others is great enough that people are willing to pay for them.

You think it's stupid that casters can bind themselves almost anywhere they please while a warrior has to go to specific places and find somebody to help them do it.

Basically you're complaining that archetype X has an easier time doing things than a archetype Y and it was stupid game design and shouldn't have been done.

Seriously, you're playing the wrong game bro.

Oh, you also think that I've posted more about this topic then I have. Cause I've only posted 4 times in this thread.

Once on page one, again which you then quoted me and wrote a wall of text about topics I hadn't even remotely weighed in on, again after that to poke fun at you, and now.

[yorumi]

Kika your gripes do sort of boil down to that though. I like things that make classes unique, I don't want everyone to have clarity just so enchanters can't make money off it. So is it fair that wars have to sit for half an hour to get back to full hp while a cleric can cast one spell? Life isn't fair, sorry, and the more companies have meddled and meddled to make things fair has resulted in bland cookie cutter mmos. You don't get unique class designs cause god forbid someone have something like clarity or a port they might be able to make some money off of.

Frankly eq is not only great because it was first, I've played plenty of mmos since eq and the moment I came back to this server it was like a dream come true. Frankly I think every mmo is worse than classic eq. Some of us actually like this stuff, I don't know why people have such a hard time accepting the fact that not everyone thinks like themselves. What you call negatives for the game I call a positive.

[Daldaen]

It's an opinion of mine(Only an opinion) that many encounters in POP were tedious and nuanced. Additionally you ALWAYS had to clear a gigantic zone just to nearly wipe to a mob that dropped only 2 items of shitty loot.


I don't really get how this is a 'new' theme. PoFear, PoHate, PoGrowth, ToV, Skyshrine, Kael....

Sure some of them dropped trash loot, but it wasn't like that made PoFear clears just to kill Cazic suck less, considering most raid forces able to down Cazic had most all the PoFear visibles they needed from trash.

[Kika Maslyaka]

baalzy, my mistake, that wall of text was meant to go to yorumi =P Somehow i thought that was his reply.

As far as classes and abilities go - no I don't ask that classes to be made to be just shades of each other, where everyone can tank, nuke and heal, so there is no difference between them.

I am asking so classes DO NOT get CONVENIENCE type abilities as substitute to COMBAT abilities, to get a UNFAIR bonus over other classes.
And NO, this is NOT Live, "live unfair" doesn't apply here - the classes SHOULD BE balance in such way, that there are no overpowered or underpowered classes, and utility/cash making abilities do not become substitutes for combat abilities.

A common trend: if you want to play a warrior - start a necro - I wasn't the one who come up with that. But this is how MOST people do it, and I will do it this too, cause - this is how game is set up.
But what my heart knows- its WRONG

PS - I am NOT proposing to change anything in Classic EQ (Classic is Classic - this is how things were, its simply a matter of fact) - But I am simply listing things that were poor design choices.

[yorumi]

So what do you do take away a necro's pet? Make a war able to solo like a necro? Set casting range to melee and remove snare entirely from the game?

We'd have to do the same for mage they can solo, and you already want ports gone or nearly gone so a mage is just a weaker wizard? Wait an enh can charm and mez and all that so take their charm away and their pet, and no clarity so they're an even weaker wizard.

Or do we just make every mob in the game soloable?

Or better yet lets hear your designs for 14 unique classes that have none of their abilities.

[Kika Maslyaka]

So what do you do take away a necro's pet? Make a war able to solo like a necro? Set casting range to melee and remove snare entirely from the game?

We'd have to do the same for mage they can solo, and you already want ports gone or nearly gone so a mage is just a weaker wizard? Wait an enh can charm and mez and all that so take their charm away and their pet, and no clarity so they're an even weaker wizard.

Or do we just make every mob in the game soloable?

Or better yet lets hear your designs for 14 unique classes that have none of their abilities.

I actually CAN give you my design on all classes- it just will take to long ;) So not this time.

But to answer what you mentioned:
Nothing wrong with necro pet, but warrior needs to have something MORE than just/attack and taunt. And yes, necros ARE insanely overpowered vs single mobs, compared to any other class

Mages vs Wizards - ports have nothing to do with difference between them. Mage is a class with powerful pet and average nukes. Wizard with a class with UBER nukes. Wizards ability to port- doesn't give him ANY edge in COMBAT over Mage- only a convenience to get where he is going faster, and make money of other people.

Nothing wrong with Chanter's charm =P Chanter can get temporary uber pet, at expense of great risk- all is fine here.
But casting Clarity on others for money is an issue.

EQ2 found a great way to handle buffs - they are IN GROUP AURAS - when you group with chanter- you get Clarity bonus, when you leave the group - Clarity stays with chanter.

[yorumi]

But a mage is another great soloer so long as they have their pet, and a wiz can even solo decently with root and snare. So you want a war to have the soloing ability of a necro or a mage. Give me a war build that solos as well as a necro and doesn't break the game. It's not like it's impossible for a war to make money.

What you call bad game design I call good design and unique classes that have abilities in demand. I don't care that someone can make money off their abilities. It's not bad game design just because YOU say so. You're stating your opinion as fact just like others. Fine you don't like it that doesn't make it a bad design. Everyone can always do it better than everyone else but all they can do is state their opinion as fact.

[Kika Maslyaka]

But a mage is another great soloer so long as they have their pet, and a wiz can even solo decently with root and snare. So you want a war to have the soloing ability of a necro or a mage. Give me a war build that solos as well as a necro and doesn't break the game. It's not like it's impossible for a war to make money.

What you call bad game design I call good design and unique classes that have abilities in demand. I don't care that someone can make money off their abilities. It's not bad game design just because YOU say so. You're stating your opinion as fact just like others. Fine you don't like it that doesn't make it a bad design. Everyone can always do it better than everyone else but all they can do is state their opinion as fact.

very well , lets settle at "in MY opinion, its a bad design" ;)
Hows that?

as far as mage vs necro vs war goes- its a more complicated matter than just adding something here and removing something there- the whole system would have to be designed from the scratch. Its not trivial, but its possible.

[Taryth]

I hold faith in Nilbog, Rogean, and all the other devs of P99- that they will ignore the unreasonable suggestions being thrown around in this, and certain other threads.
They're not going to remove CRs. You're smoking meth if you believe they will, and need to be taken to a detox facility immediately. Thus argument concerning them is entirely moot and useless. They're also not going beyond Velious- at least not in the capacity of adding actual expansions (as has been said earlier in this thread, there is a possibility of small custom content/events after Velious.)

I'd like to see a de-booked PoP added, but that would require Luclin, or a massive rebalance of all of PoP, which isn't going to happen.

[falkun]

I'd like to see a de-booked PoP added, but that would require Luclin, or a massive rebalance of all of PoP, which isn't going to happen.

You don't think you could step into T1 of PoP after farming NTOV? I do think there would be a lot more farming of the lower tiers of PoP prior to moving up, but I think the hop from NTOV to PoD, PoN, PoI, PoJ isn't so bad. Hell, I remember tanking those zones (probably pretty poorly) on my paladin in the 50s, without a ton of raid gear, and maybe 1-2 pieces of luclin gear (no VT loot at all).

[eqravenprince]

If EQ always had you respawn with equipment after dieing and you never knew it any other way, I guarantee that no one would be begging change it to leave the equipment on the corpse. I believe the same people arguing about how awesome respawning without equipment would be arguing about how awesome it is to respawn with equipment if the above was true. And for that matter, arguing anything that differs from classic EQ. It's not perfect, but it's a damn good game and I'm here despite it's flaws.

[Seaweedpimp]

You guys derailed this thread so much, its rediculous.

Take all these wild ass non everquest ideas and go make your own game. Jesus theres like 8 pages of crap that needs deleted here.

Fail
Fail
Fail

[yorumi]

If EQ always had you respawn with equipment after dieing and you never knew it any other way, I guarantee that no one would be begging change it to leave the equipment on the corpse. I believe the same people arguing about how awesome respawning without equipment would be arguing about how awesome it is to respawn with equipment if the above was true. And for that matter, arguing anything that differs from classic EQ. It's not perfect, but it's a damn good game and I'm here despite it's flaws.

Well of course you can't argue for something you're totally ignorant of. Some time in the future someone is going to come up with an idea for an mmo and lots of people are going to think it's a great idea, does it detract at all from them arguing for it in the future because they arn't asking for it now since they don't know what it is? You can't really argue for or against a system until you've tried it.

[Holdar]

Here's my story on why I think CRs are good. A couple days ago I decide to try to solo Damphyre in MM on my 46 necro. Well as you know there are a mixture of undead and live creatures in there. I make a wrong move and get beat on to 25% health before I can FD. Now I am FDd in the middle of 10 mobs at 25% scared cuz I'm like damn, if I get up and die I wont be able to get my corpse.

Now, if I spawned with all my equipment I would have yawned just gotten up and died and tried again to get to Damphyre. But I had to scan the area while FD for a safe spot, make an exiting mad dash to that safe spot and FD again before I got killed. I made it, and it felt GOOD that I got my ass out of that stupid mistake. I promptly gated and will not go back solo for a few levels.

[Massive Marc]

Your argument was that it offered no reward. I can think of many aspects of the game that don't offer immediate rewards. If we followed your logic we'd remove anything in that category.

To be frank it sounds like you haven't given this beyond a 2 seconds thought. Furthermore your perpetuating more opinion as if it meant something. There are lots of people who don't like classic EQ. They aren't here. There are lots of people who don't like Grand Turismo. That doesn't mean it's a bad game.

Consider your reasoning a bit more(Or lack there of).

Everything in this game offers a immediate reward, except corpse runs. That's what you fail to see. I get in a group, I'm rewarded with exp/loot/ whatever else. If I'm doing trade skills, I'm increasing my skill in said trade. If I'm in a large raid and don't get anything, I'm still rewarded with the social experience. What gains are you rewarded with corpse retrieval ?

Go read anything on game design. If the CONS out weigh the PROS it's bad game design.

Here is a small quote from one of the lead designers @ League of Legends:

"So... Here are a few that come to mind.... Note that you can find an example of each of these somewhere in our game at some intensity level. Sometimes this is just bad design. Sometimes this is because we got something else in exchange. Design is an optimization -- but these anti-patterns are of negative design value, so you should only do them if you get something good in return."

This isn't a opinion, it's a industry standard.

Once again, what gains do you receive from CR ?


EDIT: For the record, I'm not lobbying to take out corpse retrieval and I'm not interested in alternatives.

[moklianne]

How does easily getting your corpse back destroy the game? Respawning without equipment has always been a pain point with me. There is absolutely nothing fun about retrieving a corpse.

It isn't fun. It is painful. It is part of risk vs reward. The feeling of achievment is greater when you know if you make one false move you will spend the next hour trying to get your gear back. It also makes you think twice about soloing something risky instead of trying to get a group to kill said mob. It helps the overall community in the long term.

[guineapig]

What the hell is all this?

[Polixenes]

It isn't fun. It is painful. It is part of risk vs reward. The feeling of achievment is greater when you know if you make one false move you will spend the next hour trying to get your gear back. It also makes you think twice about soloing something risky instead of trying to get a group to kill said mob. It helps the overall community in the long term.

Hear, hear. It's not that CRs are fun, it's that CRs make staying alive more fun! Dungeon-crawling needs the threat of a tough CR to keep you on the edge of your seat.

That's why WoW is blah and EQ Classic is fun.

[eqravenprince]

What the hell is all this?

Debating the merits of corpse retrieval.

[Loly Taa]

Hear, hear. It's not that CRs are fun, it's that CRs make staying alive more fun! Dungeon-crawling needs the threat of a tough CR to keep you on the edge of your seat.

That's why WoW is blah and EQ Classic is fun.

It's also precisely why EVE Online was such an exciting game, even in places that were considered "safe" you never were, and could get suicide attacked and lose everything on you at any given time. You don't try as hard when you don't have to try as hard, your heart doesn't start beating faster as your doom approaches unless you actually feel you have something to lose.

[tristantio]

I think original EQ team had the best idea of risk vs reward and am happy to see it still in tact on p99.

When looking at a game like WOW there is absolutely zero (or a trivial amount) of risk, with lots of rewards. This makes the game less of a challenge and more of a time sink (complete activity, receive rewards, repeat).

In EQ the risk/reward was closer to 50/50 and if you fail you receive a punishment that is almost equal (or worse) than the reward would have been. This makes the game challenging and adds a real thrill to it.

Corpse runs help add to the risk factor. Most adrenaline junkies who do things like skateboard/motocross have considerable risk (and rewards) and as a result only a limited number of people partake (they don't want to risk getting hurt). If those had no risk everyone would be able to be a pro as the only thing required would be the time spent learning the moves (fear would not be an issue if you knew with 100% certainty that falling 30 feet off a huge jump would not even bruise you).

[Massive Marc]

I think original EQ team had the best idea of risk vs reward and am happy to see it still in tact on p99.

When looking at a game like WOW there is absolutely zero (or a trivial amount) of risk, with lots of rewards. This makes the game less of a challenge and more of a time sink (complete activity, receive rewards, repeat).

In EQ the risk/reward was closer to 50/50 and if you fail you receive a punishment that is almost equal (or worse) than the reward would have been. This makes the game challenging and adds a real thrill to it.

Corpse runs help add to the risk factor. Most adrenaline junkies who do things like skateboard/motocross have considerable risk (and rewards) and as a result only a limited number of people partake (they don't want to risk getting hurt). If those had no risk everyone would be able to be a pro as the only thing required would be the time spent learning the moves (fear would not be an issue if you knew with 100% certainty that falling 30 feet off a huge jump would not even bruise you).

Yah it's a real thrill doing 1h+ long corpse runs and re-grinding the 10% of exp you lost. WHAT A THRILL.

[tristantio]

Yah it's a real thrill doing 1h+ long corpse runs and re-grinding the 10% of exp you lost. WHAT A THRILL.

Ya, and in extreme sports the thrill is in falling down right?

The thrill is preventing the punishment, not the punishment itself. You may not have experienced it, but I have had fights in EQ where I actually lived with less than 10 hp remaining...that is a thrill knowing that I barely escaped a few hour loss on CR and grinding. If the game was set up like WOW I would not have cared at all (in fact, it would probably have been quicker to die and repop at full health/mana to save med time).

Just as some people choose to avoid extreme sports because they don't want to get hurt, maybe you should choose the same?

[Aadill]

It's also precisely why EVE Online was such an exciting game, even in places that were considered "safe" you never were, and could get suicide attacked and lose everything on you at any given time.

The people that believed that they were safe in those "safe areas" cried like little children when they got blown up and whined on the forums. The devs gave them a little leeway but when they cried even harder the devs told them to fuck off.

The most dangerous areas of a game offer the highest long-term rewards. If a group went down into a dungeon and said, "oh let's leave now" and simply died to gate out it would remove the entire purpose acting in a socially responsible manner (cleric has to leave, gives no warning and just gates), or putting together a well rounded group, or even caring how far you got because all you had to do was "gate" out and "recover" your "corpse" by pressing a button. Die to gate to bind (probably at a nice convenient bank) and go off to hunt more things.

I've magically transported across the world by my life force being reduced to zero! Time for a new adventure~

This a roleplaying game not an arcade game. You don't respawn with your weapons in working order. Roleplaying games go so far as to usually EXPLAIN why the hell you aren't permanently dead in the first place, whether or not your equipment magically appears in all of your bags and in your hands is a different story and in this game is considered by many to be one of the reasons why we came back to play it again. None of us EXPECT immediate rewards for every single action we take, because that's not how the world works. You want to make money? Get great experience? Slay a deity? Sneak through a city that would chase after you with pitchforks raised if you were spotted? Take a risk of not easily being able to get your corpse back... it makes you more aware of your surroundings and facilitates you playing your character as intended instead of just mashing buttons.

[Ankiilbiter]

This thread has been hijacked.

[eqravenprince]

For the sake of balancing and keeping risk/reward in mind, let's take away spells from casters when they die, the spell book is on the corpse. And you can only bind in the same places melee's can bind. You can store a backup spell book in the bank, but you would have to buy second copies of the spells you want on your backup just like melees put a backup weapon/armor in the bank. Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but some of you like punishment, might as well make it fair and balanced.

[Kika Maslyaka]

This thread has been hijacked.


The moment someone puts words "Velious" and "After" into a same sentence - the Shit Volcano under Norath tends to erupt ;)

[Kika Maslyaka]

For the sake of balancing and keeping risk/reward in mind, let's take away spells from casters when they die, the spell book is on the corpse. And you can only bind in the same places melee's can bind. You can store a backup spell book in the bank, but you would have to buy second copies of the spells you want on your backup just like melees put a backup weapon/armor in the bank. Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but some of you like punishment, might as well make it fair and balanced.

I completely support REMOVING Bind and Gate from casters ;)

[Aadill]

This thread has been hijacked.

The topic has been discussed multiple times so no one really addresses it after the first reply that answered it.~

[tristantio]

I am totally down with removing bind/gate from casters (and keeping spell book on corpse) as soon as we have infinite mana (or high enough regen that we do not have to have a med break in groups ever) and our spells gain in power based on the weapons we are using (this server will never have the focus item revamp).

Just a quick example, but a decently geared rogue will never be matched in sustained dps in a group by a caster simply because the caster dps comes in little spurts (blow the load of dps, med for 5 minutes) while the rogue has consistent damage output equivalent (or greater than) the caster while actively nuking.

Edit: My point is that the classes who don't have anywhere bind/gate are substantially better in groups than the ones who do in most cases. The exception being a class like cleric that is group required, but then again there is nothing stopping said melees from playing cleric.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I am totally down with removing bind/gate from casters (and keeping spell book on corpse) as soon as we have infinite mana (or high enough regen that we do not have to have a med break in groups ever) and our spells gain in power based on the weapons we are using (this server will never have the focus item revamp).

Just a quick example, but a decently geared rogue will never be matched in sustained dps in a group by a caster simply because the caster dps comes in little spurts (blow the load of dps, med for 5 minutes) while the rogue has consistent damage output equivalent (or greater than) the caster while actively nuking.

Edit: My point is that the classes who don't have anywhere bind/gate are substantially better in groups than the ones who do in most cases. The exception being a class like cleric that is group required, but then again there is nothing stopping said melees from playing cleric.

http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2000/gu_20000822.jpg


I fail to see how ability to bind and gate can influence your combat powers, other than to prevent death, while all melees will be left behind and die.

[moklianne]

Changes like that are veering away from the server's goal, no? I mean, this is a classic EQ server they are trying to make, not a custom one.

[Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin]

http://gucomics.com/comics/2000/gu_20000828.jpg