Bard or Ranger?

[Crede]

Given the current state of velious, with the upcoming patch that both classes are getting benefits from which would you recommend?

I will be moderately twinking with a fungi/seahorse belt and a few other goodies. I want to solo mostly but with the option to group as well.

Does a charming bard run oom quickly? Is fear kiting animals 50+ tolerable?

[Legidias]

Bard charm only costs mana for the lvl 39 one. The mana free one charms up to lvl 37.

When I back to back charm at 50+, I can probably kill things for over an hour before oom.

Then you can always fear kite or straight ae kite.

If solo is a focus, while ranger can do it okay (especially early on with fungi), it simply wont hold a candle to bard solo later on.

[GinnasP99]

Ranger will have the easier to acquire epic between the two classes, if that's a consideration for you. Both classes epics are pretty badass tho

[Jimjam]

Bard v Ranger; A question as old as time!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/printthread.php?t=269172
(Who is tanker)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/printthread.php?t=269172
(Can't decide)


The truth is it depends on what you want to do with it. I know my Ranger was great fun once I got him to 55 with his epics and clicky 50% haste. Even without a fungi he just steadily churned through mobs and surprised me by the things he could solo (frenzied velium broodling and iceburrowers especially).

Question: do you really believe the last patch is really ever going to come?

[Crede]

It would be nice to take another char to 60 besides my enchanter. I usually end up quitting around lvl 50. Seems like rangers take a major power turn in the mid 50s when you start to acquire gear.

Interestingly I posted a “best overall class at 60” thread in all aspects of the game and ranger had the most votes with bard coming in 2nd.

[tylidian]

I've been thinking about starting up a bard. Not sure I can stomach the amount of keypresses though. When grouping with bards, I have noticed SUCH a difference in group effectiveness while playing with a great bard versus a poorly-played bard. That makes me want to try one.

[Troxx]

They are such fundamentally different classes. It really depends on what you want.

Tanking: bards do it more effectively. Higher ac. Comparable defensive skills in total but favors the bard. Both have trivial aggro. Ranger will contribute more damage in this role but bard brings on demand (not proc) slow and bard adds more to the group total in the form of OP health/mana regen. For this it’s a toss up.

Pulling: if outdoors ranger harmony is almost game-breakingly overpowered. Bards pull equally well in all environments. They do fine outside and equally fine inside.

Offense: ranger is going to win. A bard CAN twist very solid dps on normal targets with dots but only does so at the expense of giving up everything else good about the bard. If the group has no sham or ench a bard will add more total dps to the group than a ranger by adding much needed haste. Rangers generally just dominate bards here. Bards are poor melee dps and twisting dots for medium tier damage output negates what bards actually do best. It’s just not worth it.

Group support: in general, this favors the bard. Mez/lull/snare/charm/haste/hpregen/manaregen ... the list goes on and on. Rangers bring some notable stuff that bards just don’t like longer duration snare/DS and sow. It depends on the group but in general the bard wins out mightily.

Solo: whether aoe dot kiting or charming, bards are amongst the fastest solo levelers. From 55 up to 60 I could chain charm for an hour or more before oom. Depending on the number of mobs it’s possible to tread water and not lose mana. If charming I’d usually just plan on a really long afk periodically to get mana back. Rangers are capable soloers but it’s going to involve down time. If it summons or you can’t snare/root it you’re stuck with what you can reliably survive toe to toe.

Gameplay: ranger are simply fun all day long. It’s as hardcore or as relaxed as you want to play and always a blast. Bards are fun too ... but it’s very ... very busy work. If you’re boarding well you’re always doing a thing and hat can get tedious. Have a relaxing alt to play on standby.

It’s hard to answer this question. Though there is obvious overlap the actual purpose for each is so different that you can’t compare them directly.

What do you want to accomplish with this toon?

[Crede]

Nice write up. I want a class that’s fun at level 60. I have an enchanter but at 60 he was extremely boring IMO between raiding and not really able to help anyone else out except casting C.

I’m leaning towards ranger though, I just think I’d get sick of twisting after 50 levels or so. And the idea of having a solid melee class that’s not a monk with utility is appealing

[Legidias]

I play my bard in raid doing the usual roles (cleric mana battery or DPS buffer) but one fun thing is to play insurance. Bard insurance comes in two types, single target and AE. In hard encounters, there is often a speed bump in between tanks, but the nice thing with a geared bard is that you can speed bump or straight out tank it if a main tank goes down (really, this is only up to vindi as tougher velious targets simply hit too hard).

Ive somewhat often finished tanking vindi (once from about 20% to kill) if the tank eats enrage on accident or other issues occur (every so often pump an aggro song in, but balance it so that you never steal it whil MT still alive). Bards also just make the best enrage tanks as they dont need to attack at all to generate massive amounts of aggro.

Breaking into planes (PoH specifically) is fun as a bard if a swarm comes in or even in places like hot or where mobs can swarm in. Keep 54 ae aggro song up with disc, as no other class can generate AE aggro and stay alive for any decent period like a bard can. Especially if a PoH pull goes south, you can use song to aggro 25 mobs and hit up your frontal disc to tank 25 mobs at once for 10 secs while everyone else camps.

Just, be aware you will never show up on DPS boards if you're into that.

Raiding rangers will fall into DPS (great if geared), speed bump, CotP buff, or DT eater basically.

[Crede]

I play my bard in raid doing the usual roles (cleric mana battery or DPS buffer) but one fun thing is to play insurance. Bard insurance comes in two types, single target and AE. In hard encounters, there is often a speed bump in between tanks, but the nice thing with a geared bard is that you can speed bump or straight out tank it if a main tank goes down (really, this is only up to vindi as tougher velious targets simply hit too hard).

Ive somewhat often finished tanking vindi (once from about 20% to kill) if the tank eats enrage on accident or other issues occur (every so often pump an aggro song in, but balance it so that you never steal it whil MT still alive). Bards also just make the best enrage tanks as they dont need to attack at all to generate massive amounts of aggro.

Breaking into planes (PoH specifically) is fun as a bard if a swarm comes in or even in places like hot or where mobs can swarm in. Keep 54 ae aggro song up with disc, as no other class can generate AE aggro and stay alive for any decent period like a bard can. Especially if a PoH pull goes south, you can use song to aggro 25 mobs and hit up your frontal disc to tank 25 mobs at once for 10 secs while everyone else camps.

Just, be aware you will never show up on DPS boards if you're into that.

Raiding rangers will fall into DPS (great if geared), speed bump, CotP buff, or DT eater basically.

I can appreciate what a bard does, but having great dps on a ranger and being more active if I want to in groups is more appealing to me. Also with the next patch coming, should make them even more viable group tanks than they are now with the right gear.

[OfficeThug]

I can appreciate what a bard does, but having great dps on a ranger and being more active if I want to in groups is more appealing to me. Also with the next patch coming, should make them even more viable group tanks than they are now with the right gear.

Bards don't scale nearly as well as Rangers do with gear either, and it sounds like you can commit some pretty good pieces of gear to twink out a new character.

[Troxx]

I can appreciate what a bard does, but having great dps on a ranger...

To be clear, you should not have the expectation of great dps from a ranger. On average rangers make for *decent* damage.

Before rangers come out of the woodwork chest thumping ... we all know the drill. With BIS endgame gear your dps will be respectable. With a BFG and a trueshot burn you might rarely top a chart or get close to it. Any class with gear like that will be respectable.

On average, ranger dps is simply average ... and that's ok. There's a lot of utility, fun and other to be had. It's a good class but it's never 'great' dps ... at least not until the end game.

[jolanar]

Given the current state of velious, with the upcoming patch that both classes are getting benefits from which would you recommend?

I will be moderately twinking with a fungi/seahorse belt and a few other goodies. I want to solo mostly but with the option to group as well.

Does a charming bard run oom quickly? Is fear kiting animals 50+ tolerable?

If you are twinking I would go with the ranger, as they will benefit far more from it.

To answer the last question, I personally did not find fear kiting animals 50+ tolerable AT ALL. But it's much better if you grab a rogue or a mage to duo with. 50+ you are limited to Velious mobs which have absurdly high AC and HP for relatively little return in xp.

[Legidias]

You can duo (or trio) KC pretty well with a bard (50+). I used to do it in RCY with an epic rogue and sometimes a monk.

Pull mob to far corner near water, snare, and fear it. By the time mob hits corridor leading to entrance (where the fear path usually takes them) they're dead. Bard snare is also the strongest in game so mobs basically walk like theyre encumbered but with sow on.

[Troxx]

The autist has joined the conversation!

————————— For Alleriah ——————————-

Ive Arrived. Hold the applause!

Trust me; we’ll hold.

The only time ive fear kited was in OT when i was letting my fungi tunic heal me up.
Fear animal 10 mana , snares like 10 mana too. Its getting exp while healing!

Neat! A melee with a fungi can solo? No wai!!?!

In the low 50s - 60 Soloed KC smoothly on the ranger.

So did my warrior. And paladin. And monk. And shaman! It’s funny how that works with a fungi.

The bard didn’t have or need a fungi and did it faster (without aoe dotting).

In regards to rangers DPS.. Expect ... dps that is below rogues. Monks ... score higher ... I parse and out dps the "lazy/bad" rogues :) ...

Fixed that for you. Don’t oversell yourself.

Monks WILL score higher. The only exception is the NToV geared ranger vs the same tier monk that hasn’t yet scored the BiS monk ratio weapons off tunare etc. At most all levels of gameplay with the exception of a very narrow window in the upper (but not absolute BiS) tier of content, monks have flatly superior ratio weapons available to them. This starts with epic/kunark/planes and continues straight through to the end of the game content on p99. The only real exception is BFG trueshot burn and a ton of arrows.

Monk BiS (primary and offhand) ratio = 0.83

Ranger BiS caps out in the high 0.7s for both mainhand and offhand.

Next and final patch monks get triple attack at 60 and improved dmg tables at 55/60.

In regards to bards.. Only method i would use to level would be swarming. Lots and lots of circles

Neat. That what the bad bards do. You go girl!

Both classes are useful in their own ways. Bards sing songs and play music.
Rangers win raids.

Drink that koolaid!

Neither of these classes “wins raids” on p99. Raids on this server are won by pull teams, clerics, and tanks with honorable mention going to the actual dps classes (ie neither bard nor ranger).

————————————— end of Alleriah reply ———————————



Both classes have their place in this game and there is only marginal overlap in terms of what the average raid or group might ask of each respectively. Bards are generally actively sought out for cc/mana_regen/haste/support. Rangers are generally sought out for dps/other. Situationally either may be sought for pulling/tanking/other.

Neither class fits into the ideal min/max that some (not all) on this server aspire to get but both are worth having around.

Given the current state of velious, with the upcoming patch that both classes are getting benefits from which would you recommend?

Next patch both get tankier. Both get a dmg output boost.

It doesn’t matter what anyone recommends because bards/rangers are classes with fundamentally different roles/expectations.

What matters is what you want to do.

They’re both strong classes but in different ways.

[Jimjam]

I don't know about bards not being very useful for raids; they sure seem important for resists against some dragons. Klandlicar and Sontalac especially iirc.

Also on the note of bards not needing fungi for KC... I have to admit my ranger never had a fungi but did a load of soloing in KC. I can only imagine how powerful ranger is once you add a fungi to their other sources of regen!

[kuuky]

Now that we know everything there is to know about bards vs rangers courtesy of Troxx and Alleriah lets move on to the real question:

What is better Boutik or A Piece of Poo

1. When Boutik speaks Poo comes out of his mouth

2. A Piece of Poo is exactly that a Piece of Poo

and the winner is in a landslide

A Piece of Poo (seriously you didn't think Boutik would win did you)

[Sajan]

Ugh alleriah’s autistic screetching...

[deezy]

Monks WILL score higher.

"Will" as in the future when they get triple attack? Cause currently they don't.

[jolanar]

"Will" as in the future when they get triple attack? Cause currently they don't.

How do rangers do more damage than monks if their weapons are worse? Just curious.

[deezy]

How do rangers do more damage than monks if their weapons are worse? Just curious.

Probably the +atk bonus if I had to made an educated guess. Me and my ranger buddies have consistently scored higher on our damage parses than monks have. My rough estimate would be about 3/4 of the time rangers were higher damage than monks.

[Legidias]

(Notice theres no mention of equal gear or buffs)

[Troxx]

How do rangers do more damage than monks if their weapons are worse? Just curious.

Oh it’s more than just ratios. They have lower offense skill cap, weapon skill caps, dual wield skill cap, double attack skill cap, and an inferior (kick vs flying kick) secondary attack skill that also has lower skill cap.

I’m also very interested in hearing the rationale.

-Inferior weapon ratios
-lower weapon skill caps and offense
-inferior double attack and dual wield
-inferior bonus attack
= profit?

If you only factor in Trueshot (2 minutes per 72 minutes), that’s a brief window with exceptional damage potential followed by 70 minutes of all the challenges listed above. Many of the truly impressive parses I’ve seen involved BFG though some were with other high end traditional bows.

Deezy, do you give your monks CoP. If you did, did they lose it in the process of dying or being debuffed while they were out bringing the mob to you? Were they having the opportunity to have 100% uptime fighting or did they spend part of the fight flopped from the pull? Were you sitting in a bard dps group and/or consistently prebuffed with avatar while the monk team is generally best utilized in a puller group arrangement? Under the right circumstances it’s easy to see how a NToV geared ranger could functionally beat a monk with the same ratios (don’t have their BiS monk specific weapons), but most of those circumstances involve simply benefiting from outside buffs/support and/or simply more available uptime opportunity easily lost because monks were doing that one critical duty that enables the whole raid.

Innate ranger attack exists mostly to partially offset the lower weapon/offense/dualwield/double attack skill caps.

(Notice theres no mention of equal gear or buffs)

Bingo.

[deezy]

(Notice theres no mention of equal gear or buffs)

in a raid setting

[Ripqozko]

Oh it’s more than just ratios. They have lower offense skill cap, weapon skill caps, dual wield skill cap, double attack skill cap, and an inferior (kick vs flying kick) secondary attack skill that also has lower skill cap.

I’m also very interested in hearing the rationale.

-Inferior weapon ratios
-lower weapon skill caps and offense
-inferior double attack and dual wield
-inferior bonus attack
= profit?

If you only factor in Trueshot (2 minutes per 72 minutes), that’s a brief window with exceptional damage potential followed by 70 minutes of all the challenges listed above. Many of the truly impressive parses I’ve seen involved BFG though some were with other high end traditional bows.

Deezy, do you give your monks CoP. If you did, did they lose it in the process of dying or being debuffed while they were out bringing the mob to you? Were they having the opportunity to have 100% uptime fighting or did they spend part of the fight flopped from the pull? Were you sitting in a bard dps group and/or consistently prebuffed with avatar while the monk team is generally best utilized in a puller group arrangement? Under the right circumstances it’s easy to see how a NToV geared ranger could functionally beat a monk with the same ratios (don’t have their BiS monk specific weapons), but most of those circumstances involve simply benefiting from outside buffs/support and/or simply more available uptime opportunity easily lost because monks were doing that one critical duty that enables the whole raid.

Innate ranger attack exists mostly to partially offset the lower weapon/offense/dualwield/double attack skill caps.



Bingo.

Really none of this matters, most won't see tov gear . A scrub monk will outdps a scrub ranger. Ranger is quite good with tov gear however . With bfg and trueshot I parae like a bad rogue .with tov gear and melee I beat bad monks (most monks don't have tov weapons). But i wouldn't roll a ranger with ass gear.

[Legidias]

A lot of high end geared monks are also utilized for pulling etc, so if they manage to get back in time for fight, they start like 30-60s after a fight has already started (such as zoning out of ToV and zoning back in for coth, etc.)

So when you see in a NToV fight for example rangers beating out the B team monks, well yes. Youre comparing your geared rangers to the next-to best monks that arent in pull team.

[deezy]

tunare doesn't require any pulling, but there are probably better examples of mobs that are easier to get a full parse on.

[deezy]

Deezy, do you give your monks CoP. If you did, did they lose it in the process of dying or being debuffed while they were out bringing the mob to you? Were they having the opportunity to have 100% uptime fighting or did they spend part of the fight flopped from the pull? Were you sitting in a bard dps group and/or consistently prebuffed with avatar while the monk team is generally best utilized in a puller group arrangement? Under the right circumstances it’s easy to see how a NToV geared ranger could functionally beat a monk with the same ratios (don’t have their BiS monk specific weapons), but most of those circumstances involve simply benefiting from outside buffs/support and/or simply more available uptime opportunity easily lost because monks were doing that one critical duty that enables the whole raid.
During a raid I always give whatever buff is asked for. After considering the downtime a monk has, in the past I've asked some of them not to pull and stay on a mob 100% of the time. Consistently monks were either on par or came short.

Yes, I always try to keep an avatar buff on myself just like most of the DPS at the raid. While I love being grouped with a bard, I don't often get to since they're usually reserved for cleric and rogue groups. A monk with BIS weapons would probably more consistently do more damage than my ranger, but that would be an unfair comparison when you consider my ranger does not have BIS weapons. I think it might be reasonable to assume a BIS monk would out damage a BIS ranger, but I've never parsed that encounter since I don't know a BIS monk and a BIS ranger.

I understand why you do not believe equally geared and buffed rangers would consistently out damage monks. I didn't believe it myself until I began parsing every single combat scenario. But in my experience and years of parsing these fights I found rangers were doing more damage. Even when taking into account the monk may have been pulling.

It might be prudent to tell you, if I had a IRL superpower, it is making competent spreadsheets.

[feniin]

My 60 ranger parses equal or better to my 60 monk solo and on raids, probably because of the higher attack. Monk is better in every other regard.

[Crede]

Solid advice all, I'm glad I started this post.

I've already created a Ranger(Human of course) and began leveling him.

[Troxx]

During a raid I always give whatever buff is asked for. After considering the downtime a monk has, in the past I've asked some of them not to pull and stay on a mob 100% of the time. Consistently monks were either on par or came short.

If true and with gear level (monks with their monk weapons and ranger with BiS general weapons) and buffs were literally all right on par, there’s got to be some reason. I do not suspect the attack bonus could compensate for having a fairly significant skill cap disadvantage which also includes literally fewer opportunities to hit in having both lower dual wield and double attack.

On these fights were you utilizing trueshot or straight up meleeing? Do you own/use a BFG? If we’re incorporating trueshot (up 2 min with 72 refresh) and/or using BFG it makes total sense but that doesn’t reflect actual expected ranger damage globally. Rangers spend 35x more time not in trueshot than under disc. Regarding BFG you can’t exactly summon/fletch enough arrows to keep it up continually.

If we’re talking literally melee damage vs melee damage ... I don’t know man. It simply doesn’t make sense. It could be true, but it neither computes nor have I heard this to be a consensus generally held by the community. I certainly have not seen it. I’ve seen ToV rangers beat lesser geared monks. I’ve parsed Aikons (old friend) sustain numbers with just my shaman’s gimp ass haste that I’ve never seen any ranger consistently maintain.

It’s better weapons, more hits, higher offense, more total hits vs innate ranger attack + ??

I dunno. Maybe? Doesn’t make a lick of rational sense though.

What I do know is my epic/sos monk 34% worn haste consistently beats out a 60 ranger buddy with blam stick and swiftwind.

[Cecily]

My ranger I don’t play is perma 91% hasted and cracks things on the head with a baton of flames. Your argument is invalid.

[deezy]

On these fights were you utilizing trueshot or straight up meleeing? Do you own/use a BFG?
I mean only straight up normal ol' auto attack fights. Trueshot/BFG would skew the results.

If we’re talking literally melee damage vs melee damage ... I don’t know man. It simply doesn’t make sense. It could be true, but it neither computes nor have I heard this to be a consensus generally held by the community. I certainly have not seen it. I’ve seen ToV rangers beat lesser geared monks. I’ve parsed Aikons (old friend) sustain numbers with just my shaman’s gimp ass haste that I’ve never seen any ranger consistently maintain.
Aikons is an exceptionally geared monk. I've not talked to him in a while, but he might be BIS everything or pretty close to it. My gear isn't quite to that quality.

It’s better weapons, more hits, higher offense, more total hits vs innate ranger attack + ??

I dunno. Maybe? Doesn’t make a lick of rational sense though.

What I do know is my epic/sos monk 34% worn haste consistently beats out a 60 ranger buddy with blam stick and swiftwind.

It's a secret to everybody. I'll say I do a fair amount of damage from procs and keep swiftwind in my secondary for the additional 30 atk. I've read a claw of lightening will increase dps by approx 15% over swiftwind, but I've never parsed that.

[Troxx]

Aikons is an exceptionally geared monk. I've not talked to him in a while, but he might be BIS everything or pretty close to it. My gear isn't quite to that quality.

Correct but most of his gear advantage globally isn’t relevant for damage output. That’s just worn haste, his weapons and worn attack. If he had only his weapons, his haste item and enough single pieces of gear to buff his str out to 255 (which with those 3 items he could shaman stack to 255) he’d be operating at 99% or more of his total dps potential once properly buffed, and that’s what I’m trying to get across. Most of his BiS gear gives him his nuts ac/resists/hp. A surprisingly small number of those pieces translates to damage.

ToV level raiding is unique in that most end-game raid weapons are multiclass and all of the mutliclass last I checked cap out several clicks under the 0.8 ratio. Monk weapons are over 0.8 (0.83 specifically I think). A ToV monk will use these weapons while waiting on class specific drops because they’re better than kunark. It’s an interesting situation where for a narrow window of times everyone is functioning with identical weaponry levels. It’s a temporary bump.

If you give a monk 2 jade maces and a ranger 2 jade maces the dps is going to be closer than it would if the monk was allowed to use superior monk specific ratios. Most melee have 13/20 primals. Monks get 15/20. In kunark rangers sport epic ratios. Monk epic at it’s speed provides a big advantage ... nevermind the fact that pre-velious they can double up on 16/22 sky fists.

Long story short: it’s disingenuous (purposely or otherwise) to compare class potential when one of them is more or less using BiS class ratios and the other one is just waiting on theirs to drop. Prior to ToV monk ratio weapons are readily available and more potent in pretty significant ways. From level 1 if twinking monks have this advantage, fairly or otherwise, up until the moment a guild breaks into ToV. There’s a temporary speedbump where a guild acquires weapons in general but hasn’t seen the monk specific drops where the playing field is more level.

I used Aikons as an example intentionally. I know he has his BiS ratios. His white damage alone (can’t parse procs) with just 50% shaman haste is absolutely insane even while tanking. I’d love to see how crazy it’d be raid buffed and in a dps group. Even more, I’d love to see it side by side the melee dps of a melee BiS ranger in the same group with the same buffs.

I’m pretty confident I know which person would put out bigger numbers. It’s the same person (class) who put out higher numbers in kunark.

[Troxx]

Rangers make a strong class. Especially raid geared velious they do plenty of damage. None of this it to imply that they’re not good or capable. If anything it just goes to show how monks were just given special toys in a tier of their own while also having the absolute highest values for offensive skills possible in the game. There’s a reason they ended up getting knocked down 12 pegs in the expansions after velious. Verant/Sony realizes they screwed up royally in making a class that tanked too well, had a stranglehold on critical pulling, and simultaneously put out obscene damage relative to everything else in their toolkit.

When the final patch hits we’ll get to see that final (but classic) miss-step on the part of developers. 55+ monks will have better dmg tables than any 60 melee. 60 they make the final jump on top of innate triple attack.

[deezy]

Correct but most of his gear advantage globally isn’t relevant for damage output. That’s just worn haste, his weapons and worn attack.
That is literally every stat that gives a melee any sort of damage output.

If he had only his weapons, his haste item and enough single pieces of gear to buff his str out to 255 (which with those 3 items he could shaman stack to 255) he’d be operating at 99% or more of his total dps potential once properly buffed
Are we comparing worn atk? I would estimate he would be closer to 85-90% of his operational dps without any worn atk, but I don't know the nuances of monk damage.

A surprisingly small number of those pieces translates to damage.
Isn't that true for everybody though? I'd say it's even more true for nearly every other person on the server.

I’d love to see it side by side the melee dps of a melee BiS ranger in the same group with the same buffs.
So would I.

I’m pretty confident I know which person would put out bigger numbers. It’s the same person (class) who put out higher numbers in kunark.
That's a fun thought experiment and I'd love to know the data, but for the other 99.7% of the velious raiders - rangers have done more damage than monks approx. 3/4th of the time in the parses I've reviewed.

[Troxx]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Aikons

I count 3 auras of battle. Are you implying 30 less worn attack means he does 10-15% less dps? His damage is high because he’s a level 60 monk with 41% worn haste and 15/18 ( 0.833) and 16/19 weapons (0.842).

Ranger vulak sword 15/21 clocks in at 0.714. Baton of Flame 13/17 best ratio 1hb is 0.765. BiS offhand claw of lightning 14/18 is 0.778.

Monk weapon for primary is 8.88% better than ranger BiS. Monk offhand is 8.2% better than ranger BiS.

I really don’t think I’ve got more to add to this conversation unless parses with context are dropped. Show me a monk with one or both of the monk weapons who is consistently beaten by an ultra high end melee ranger both with equal buffs and equal time spent fighting and I’ll concede there is some mythical witchcraft at play that allows for the violation of math and common sense. Otherwise it simply doesn’t compute how a class with higher offense, weapon skills, double attack, duel wield, all on top of weapon ratios >8% better loses out to the class that has some bonus attack. Does the degree of the bonus even result in higher total attack factoring in the attack lost from lower weapon and offense caps.

I am very strongly suspicious that the “3/4” of parses you’ve reviewed where you claim ranger superiority involve monks missing out on a sizable portion of the fight because they were flopped, waiting for a coth, zoning out after pulling for you, or some combination of the above. Or monks undergeared without the perfect stack of buffs.

/shrug

It doesn’t matter. This side derail conversation only exists because a few threads back there was assertion that rangers generally put out more damage than monks at the high end. I never saw it at the low end, in groups at the high end (involving spreads of casual vs. casual or high end raider vs raider), or in raids unless the monks were busy pulling or the rare pretty trueshot burn.

For this part of the conversation I’m done, friend, unless some credible parses are put up. If you have any I would legitimately love to see them. Please provide the relevant details including how long each player was engaged on target (easy with gamparse) so we can make sure the monk didn’t spend the first 30+ seconds of the fight not engaged.

[Ripqozko]

/GU Nexona in 19s, 23k @1214dps --- Vertiigo 3k @199dps --- Hiddenn 2k @135dps --- Cheddleton 2k @128dps --- Ripqozko 2k @111dps --- Drakewu 2k @142dps --- Stabithaa 2k @99dps --- Cartel 1k @88dps --- Gatitos 1k @92dps --- Blee 1k @85dps --- Droar 1k @92dps

/GU Hoshkar in 77s, 30k @385dps --- Ripqozko 6k @106dps --- Skew 5k @96dps --- Servicon 5k @84dps --- Knapsack 3k @59dps --- Trazzle 3k @58dps --- Orna 3k @45dps --- Naxi 2k @33dps --- Rikyr 1k @26dps --- Papaj 1k @21dps --- Nexii 0k @28dps

/GU Velketor the Sorcerer in 210s, 189k @899dps --- Dalvens 19k @104dps --- Judass 18k @100dps --- Ripqozko 18k @97dps --- Noctessa 16k @89dps --- Enessae 13k @69dps --- Bageljuice 12k @64dps --- Kozuro 11k @61dps --- Arvan 10k @52dps --- Xyram 8k @47dps --- Niht 8k @40dps

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps

/GU Jorlleag in 249s, 302k @1214dps --- Cecily 19k @78dps --- Maggott 19k @78dps --- Ripqozko 19k @76dps --- Pryckd 17k @70dps --- Secher 16k @69dps --- Coppernin 16k @66dps --- Briefs 16k @66dps --- Knapsack 15k @59dps --- Edashi 13k @58dps

That's some my bfg parses I found

[Ripqozko]

Note this doesnt have to do with that , but rangers can do better then some rogues. Generally speaking you have time to charge your disc before next raid mob so it's not an issue.

[Cecily]

My ranger I don’t play is perma 91% hasted and cracks things on the head with a baton of flames. Your argument is invalid.

[Cecily]

Also I did 10k to that big green thing in EJ with my AoW bow once. Checkmate. Your move.

[Xaeophi]

Solid advice all, I'm glad I started this post.

I've already created a Ranger(Human of course) and began leveling him.

Human. Its a good thing you just created the ranger. Strip it, Delete it, Reroll wood elf.

And does anyone else find it comical that this nobody is debating with people who are in high end raiding guilds who would be able to parse/experience/witness the actual dps that can be done by these classes?
Who is this BG guy? Never even seen them in tov..kael.. skyshrine.. icewell.. vp..
Why argue with people who clearly have a better chance of knowing what theyre talking about then you. Stop

[Troxx]

You haven’t seen my bard Troxx because I haven’t really played my user handle’s namesake in close to 2 years. He was my first to 60 but now just collects dust.

[Ennewi]

And does anyone else find it comical that this nobody is debating with people who are in high end raiding guilds...?

What this statement lacks in self-awareness it makes up for in self-importance.

[Ripqozko]

Human. Its a good thing you just created the ranger. Strip it, Delete it, Reroll wood elf.

And does anyone else find it comical that this nobody is debating with people who are in high end raiding guilds who would be able to parse/experience/witness the actual dps that can be done by these classes?
Who is this BG guy? Never even seen them in tov..kael.. skyshrine.. icewell.. vp..
Why argue with people who clearly have a better chance of knowing what theyre talking about then you. Stop

I agree with all this minus wood elf, human can wear pd robe thus auto more superior

[deezy]

I agree with all this minus wood elf, human can wear pd robe thus auto more superior

also humans are awesome

[Jimjam]

Also humans can have lightning running through their veins, which is far cooler than being a tree hugging furry.

Remember: human storm fury ranger not elf fawn furry ranger.

[deezy]

I spent more time making this than I think it was worth, but here are some parses. I filtered out anybody using an offensive disc or if the player wasn't at the fight since the start.
Derakor the Vindicator in 179s, 193k @1080 | #7 Ranger 11k | #8 Ranger 11k | #9 Monk 10k | #11 Monk 9k
Derakor the Vindicator in 178s, 201k @1128 | #8 Monk 10k | #9 Ranger 10k | #11 Ranger 9k | #13 Monk 9k
Derakor the Vindicator in 158s, 165k @1047 | #4 Ranger 11k | #5 Monk 10k | #8 Ranger 9k | #9 Ranger 9k | #10 Monk 8k
Derakor the Vindicator in 81s, 127k @1568 | #11 Ranger 5k {X} | #12 Ranger 5k | #15 Monk 4k | #19 Monk 3k
Derakor the Vindicator in 96s, 204k @2127 | #13 Monk 6k | #14 Ranger 6k | #15 Ranger 6k | #16 Monk 5k | #18 Monk 5k | #19 Monk 5k {X}

King Tormax in 355s, 492k @1385 | #8 Ranger 20k | #10 Monk 18k | #11 Monk 18k | #12 Ranger 18k | #13 Monk 18k | #15 Ranger 16k | #19 Ranger 13k | #20 Monk 12k
King Tormax in 445s, 515k @1158 | #10 Ranger 23k | #11 Ranger 22k | #14 Monk 18k | #18 Ranger 16k
King Tormax in 359s, 502k @1400 | #11 Ranger 17k | #12 Ranger 17k | #13 Monk 16k | #14 Monk 16k | #15 Monk 16k | #16 Monk 16k | #17 Monk 16k | #19 Ranger 14k
King Tormax in 271s, 475k @1752 | #11 Monk 15k | #12 Ranger 14k | #13 Monk 13k | #15 Monk 13k | #16 Monk 13k | #17 Monk 12k | #18 Monk 12k | #22 Monk 11k

[Cecily]

That's 9 hours 35 minutes of your life spent killing imaginary giants, including AM monk pull time.

[deezy]

Only 9?

[mattydef]

It's safe to say rangers are capable of out dpsing monks and monks are capable of beating rangers, usually based on gear and the always important RNGesus.

[Troxx]

I spent more time making this than I think it was worth, but here are some parses. I filtered out anybody using an offensive disc or if the player wasn't at the fight since the start.
Derakor the Vindicator in 179s, 193k @1080 | #7 Ranger 11k | #8 Ranger 11k | #9 Monk 10k | #11 Monk 9k
Derakor the Vindicator in 178s, 201k @1128 | #8 Monk 10k | #9 Ranger 10k | #11 Ranger 9k | #13 Monk 9k
Derakor the Vindicator in 158s, 165k @1047 | #4 Ranger 11k | #5 Monk 10k | #8 Ranger 9k | #9 Ranger 9k | #10 Monk 8k
Derakor the Vindicator in 81s, 127k @1568 | #11 Ranger 5k {X} | #12 Ranger 5k | #15 Monk 4k | #19 Monk 3k
Derakor the Vindicator in 96s, 204k @2127 | #13 Monk 6k | #14 Ranger 6k | #15 Ranger 6k | #16 Monk 5k | #18 Monk 5k | #19 Monk 5k {X}

King Tormax in 355s, 492k @1385 | #8 Ranger 20k | #10 Monk 18k | #11 Monk 18k | #12 Ranger 18k | #13 Monk 18k | #15 Ranger 16k | #19 Ranger 13k | #20 Monk 12k
King Tormax in 445s, 515k @1158 | #10 Ranger 23k | #11 Ranger 22k | #14 Monk 18k | #18 Ranger 16k
King Tormax in 359s, 502k @1400 | #11 Ranger 17k | #12 Ranger 17k | #13 Monk 16k | #14 Monk 16k | #15 Monk 16k | #16 Monk 16k | #17 Monk 16k | #19 Ranger 14k
King Tormax in 271s, 475k @1752 | #11 Monk 15k | #12 Ranger 14k | #13 Monk 13k | #15 Monk 13k | #16 Monk 13k | #17 Monk 12k | #18 Monk 12k | #22 Monk 11k

Thanks for all the effort you put into this man, it’s appreciated. What is the general gear level for these melee? It actually seems on the low end. With the exception of 2 Vindi kills the highest ranger for every other fight is failing to crack 60 dps. The highest (a vindi) is 69.62 dps and the second highest (also a vindi) is just over 60dps. I’m not sure what guild you’re in but this seems really low. KT and Vindi have higher ac but I’d expect higher numbers if you’re in that ToV geared (to any significant degree) bracket. In excluding characters under disc I’m assuming trueshot was also excluded. Any of these rangers routinely use BFG? Do any of your monks have their monk weapons?

I’ll try to dig up some parses of my own but we’ve got a guild monk that routinely puts up a lot more ... granted he’s got tunare fist primary and stick offhand.

I’ll check from our Vindi run over the weekend. I’m pretty sure I had my logs turned on.

[Loadsamoney]

It's safe to say rangers are capable of out dpsing monks and monks are capable of beating rangers, usually based on gear and the always important RNGesus.

How does a Ranger out-DPS an equally skilled and equally geared Monk? Do they have to combine their dots and nukes or something?

[deezy]

How does a Ranger out-DPS an equally skilled and equally geared Monk? Do they have to combine their dots and nukes or something?

dots and nukes will lower your dps on most things

[Loadsamoney]

dots and nukes will lower your dps on most things

Okay, let's forget the nuke and just consider that the Ranger applies DoD and then wades right in. How is a Ranger beating a Monk in the melee department in this case?

[deezy]

Thanks for all the effort you put into this man, it’s appreciated. What is the general gear level for these melee? It actually seems on the low end. With the exception of 2 Vindi kills the highest ranger for every other fight is failing to crack 60 dps. The highest (a vindi) is 69.62 dps and the second highest (also a vindi) is just over 60dps. I’m not sure what guild you’re in but this seems really low.
Core and Aftermath
KT and Vindi have higher ac but I’d expect higher numbers if you’re in that ToV geared (to any significant degree) bracket. In excluding characters under disc I’m assuming trueshot was also excluded. Any of these rangers routinely use BFG? Do any of your monks have their monk weapons?
BFG/Trueshot is used a lot on vindi, but all of those were filtered out. I'd assume Core and Aftermath monks have good weapons, but it's never something I kept up with.

[Ripqozko]

an average parse i had pre tov weapons was 65-75dps in raw melee, with tov weapons up to 85 in pure melee.

this is on vindi

[deezy]

Okay, let's forget the nuke and just consider that the Ranger applies DoD and then wades right in. How is a Ranger beating a Monk in the melee department in this case?
By meleeing.

Sorry to give a vague answer, but I don't know why. Rangers and monks are on two different damage tables. Ranger's share their damage table with warriors and monks are on a unique damage table. My understanding of either one is imprecise.

[mattydef]

How does a Ranger out-DPS an equally skilled and equally geared Monk? Do they have to combine their dots and nukes or something?

Equally skilled and equally geared is going to come down to RNG, which is probably a way bigger factor than most people give credit for. I would honestly say in most scenarios the monk will more than likely edge out the ranger due to flying kick.

[Troxx]

an average parse i had pre tov weapons was 65-75dps in raw melee, with tov weapons up to 85 in pure melee.

this is on vindi

One of our monks (BiS primary other offhand) floats in similar mid 80s territory sustained on high ac velious mobs. I’ll see if I can dig up the parse later when I get home. I’d be interested to see that monk in action with a shaman cast primal buff for the duration of the fight.

How does a Ranger out-DPS an equally skilled and equally geared Monk? Do they have to combine their dots and nukes or something?

That’s the tantalizing question that nobody seems to know the answer to. I’ve seen Aikon’s dps in action and it’s pretty obscene. I have seen rangers put up higher numbers with the exception a lucky standard bow trueshot run. I have seen some really ludicrous numbers using BFG but both of those are fairly narrow situations that generally don’t apply (2 minutes up 72 min refresh), one of which requiring MQ result for a component that is no longer available. There are still some pieces out there to MQ I’d imagine but for most rangers is never going to happen if they don’t already have it.

I’ve seen some strong melee parses from rangers but I’m still in incredibly skeptical that a BiS ranger can consistently top out a BiS monk. 15/18 and 16/19 is just nuts.

[Loadsamoney]

What does the damage of Kick cap at? It feels worthless at Level 25, only doing a maximum of 6 damage. Almost seems pointless to have since it doesn't interrupt spells like Bash does.

At least Flying Kick has some power behind it.

[Ripqozko]

One of our monks (BiS primary other offhand) floats in similar mid 80s territory sustained on high ac velious mobs. I’ll see if I can dig up the parse later when I get home. I’d be interested to see that monk in action with a shaman cast primal buff for the duration of the fight.



That’s the tantalizing question that nobody seems to know the answer to. I’ve seen Aikon’s dps in action and it’s pretty obscene. I have seen rangers put up higher numbers with the exception a lucky standard bow trueshot run. I have seen some really ludicrous numbers using BFG but both of those are fairly narrow situations that generally don’t apply (2 minutes up 72 min refresh), one of which requiring MQ result for a component that is no longer available. There are still some pieces out there to MQ I’d imagine but for most rangers is never going to happen if they don’t already have it.

I’ve seen some strong melee parses from rangers but I’m still in incredibly skeptical that a BiS ranger can consistently top out a BiS monk. 15/18 and 16/19 is just nuts.

idk from what all i seen i was above most monks, the ones with real great gear, i was behind. i dont really want to post more parse, just what i seen. rangers do lot more dmg then they are credited for, and the 72min thing is not an issue, litterally how many times non earthquake are you killing more then once per hour for dragons?

[deezy]

What does the damage of Kick cap at? It feels worthless at Level 25, only doing a maximum of 6 damage. Almost seems pointless to have since it doesn't interrupt spells like Bash does.

At least Flying Kick has some power behind it.

At 60 it's around 1-3 DPS. I have kick bound to the same key as clicky haste as an encouragement.

[Loadsamoney]

At 60 it's around 1-3 DPS. I have kick bound to the same key as clicky haste as an encouragement.

Ah, I might do that for Swiftwind!

[Jimjam]

Ah, I might do that for Swiftwind!

Swift wind is a worn haste.

I believe Dark Cloak of the Sky (or Captain Nalot's Eye Patch) is being referenced here. Short duration haste cast instantly on the click of an item.

[Crede]

Swift wind is a worn haste.

I believe Dark Cloak of the Sky (or Captain Nalot's Eye Patch) is being referenced here. Short duration haste cast instantly on the click of an item.

He’s talking about monk epic haste or Jonathan’s whistling warsong which are instant clicks. The cloak and eyepatch are not

[Loadsamoney]

Swift wind is a worn haste.

I believe Dark Cloak of the Sky (or Captain Nalot's Eye Patch) is being referenced here. Short duration haste cast instantly on the click of an item.

Swiftwind is a worn Haste? Thought it was a proc or cast.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Swift_Spirit

Anyway, I still wonder if there's some short duration combat buff on an item I could use and bind to the Kick key. Is Hammer of Rage a clickie, or does it need to be equipped?

https://wiki.project1999.com/Hammer_of_Rage

[Crede]

Swiftwind is a worn Haste? Thought it was a proc or cast.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Swift_Spirit

Anyway, I still wonder if there's some short duration combat buff on an item I could use and bind to the Kick key. Is Hammer of Rage a clickie, or does it need to be equipped?

https://wiki.project1999.com/Hammer_of_Rage

Read the haste guide on the wiki. Swiftwind says worn right next to the proc, and that hammer is combat, which also won’t work. You need one that says casting time: instant. This can be seen on any of the items wiki page.

[deezy]

Dark Cloak of the Sky is the clicky i was referring to and is instant cast. Swiftwind is worn haste, however.

[Jimjam]

He’s talking about monk epic haste or Jonathan’s whistling warsong which are instant clicks. The cloak and eyepatch are not

You should try clicking your cloak or eyepatch.

[Loadsamoney]

Dark Cloak of the Sky is the clicky i was referring to and is instant cast. Swiftwind is worn haste, however.

I'll have to look through the clicky catalog and see what has a usable combat buff I can bind to Kick.

[Legidias]

You can bind any clicky to kick, some are just not useful lol

[Loadsamoney]

You can bind any clicky to kick, some are just not useful lol

I want something that confers a short-duration buff like Chant of Battle, Yaulp, etc.

[deezy]

I want something that confers a short-duration buff like Chant of Battle, Yaulp, etc.

Yaulp coudn't stack with something, but i don't remember what it was.

[feniin]

I'll have to look through the clicky catalog and see what has a usable combat buff I can bind to Kick.

Dark Cloak of the Sky is the only one I can think of for a ranger.

Monks have Epic and/or Robe of the Whistling Fist

[MikeXG]

You can bind any clicky to kick, some are just not useful lol

I'm sorry what?! I can bind click items to kick how?

[Loadsamoney]

Dark Cloak of the Sky is the only one I can think of for a ranger.

Monks have Epic and/or Robe of the Whistling Fist

Darn, guess I just gotta not be lazy and use my flimsy little Kick without any incentives other than good play.

[Legidias]

I'm sorry what?! I can bind click items to kick how?

Just like with the instant clicks. Set both on hotbar with same keypress.

Clicks that arent instant can still be bound, they just render you useless while its casting lol

[Borak]

Yaulp coudn't stack with something, but i don't remember what it was.

Yaulp doesn't stack with Speed of the Shissar, Yaulp overwrites it.

[Loadsamoney]

Yaulp doesn't stack with Speed of the Shissar, Yaulp overwrites it.

I could use Mask of War, bind that to Kick. Certainly beats my Banded Mask right now.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Mask_of_War

As long as the price is reasonable.

[Fazlazen]

bard is the most versatile class in the game. cc, pulls, mana regen, tank (although not at the high end), etc.

ranger has tracking, weaponshield, ok dps, no real tanking ability at the high end.

both are alot of fun to lvl up.

[MikeXG]

Just like with the instant clicks. Set both on hotbar with same keypress.

Clicks that arent instant can still be bound, they just render you useless while its casting lol

ahh okay that makes sense. I thought there was a / command to use items for a second... then I remembered its 1999

[Ravager]

Bard if you don't mind constantly pushing buttons, Ranger if you do.

[Loadsamoney]

Forewarning, I'm currently maining a Ranger, level 44, and life is hard if you don't bowrot or fearkite animals. Geodes max level in CC is 37, and they still whoop my butt at 44, hitting for up to 88. I can usually take two before I have to med, but sometimes only one, translates to roughly 8 kills an hour solo.

Don't be like me. One you get to around 45, get yourself a good bow, a Fleeting Quiver and Tolan's Bracer so you can make unlimited arrows on command, and start bowrotting and bowkiting. Even if ttk per target is higher, the less mana spent healing, the less downtime you'll have medding, the higher your average ttk will be.

I have 6k put away now, that's where it's going.