Monk Epic vs AC vs SoS

[bradsamma]

Alright! So I'm trying to figure out what the best combinations are to use at 55+

I'm using the max hit formula and then dividing it by the delay to find their objective damage difference. I am assuming an even distribution of damage from max to 0. I have heard that on high AC mobs, your bonus damage does a greater portion of damage. I'm mostly looking at solo/duo and exp group situations.

((Weapon Skill + Strength - 75)/100 * Weapon Damage + Bonus damage)/ Weapon Delay.

At 55 I'm using a skill of 250 for 1hb and 240 for h2h.

I've compared strengths of 150 and 200. I didn't go over 200 strength since I am under the impression that there is a softcap of 200 on strength. I am assuming a damage bonus of 10.

55 with 150STR 55 with 200STR
Epic 2.396875 2.678125
Adamantite Club 2.35 2.65
Stave of Shielding 2.330357143 2.633928571


At 55, I'm looking at a 2% dps increase with the epic with 150 strength and 1% dps increase with 200 strength.

IF these calculations are correct, then you give up a marginal damage increase for more/bigger riposites and the loss of what is an amazing proc on the Adamantite Club with a significant amount of damage mitigation and non-trivial damage.

Also, I have calculated that you're going to get about an 11% damage increase with a 50 point strength buff while using the AC at this level.


At 60 with an 11 point damage bonus and using a value of 211 for strength (assuming a max strength softcap reduction of 55/5), I'm seeing an almost 4% increase in DPS with of the epic vs AC.

Side note, I'm seeing a 1% damage increase with the SoS vs AC in the offhand.





One final question, the monk epic adds +40 ATK when clicked. What is your average increase in DPS if you have a shaman/enchanter in your group making the haste component useless?

Please let me know if I have messed up these calculations at all. Thank you!

[mumpz]

i wonder if there is a reason so many monks use epic main + SoS... probably not.

[Troxx]

I’ll make it easy for you:

Epic + SoS > AC + SoS

It’s that simple. AC isn’t far behind, mind you, but it is behind. If you needed/wanted the proc you can use it situationally and keep it in your bag. I sold mine after I got epic. I wasn’t going to use it often if at all and applied the funds elsewhere.

[bradsamma]

I’ll make it easy for you:

Epic + SoS > AC + SoS

It’s that simple. AC isn’t far behind, mind you, but it is behind. If you needed/wanted the proc you can use it situationally and keep it in your bag. I sold mine after I got epic. I wasn’t going to use it often if at all and applied the funds elsewhere.

Is it though? My calculations are showing that at 55, this isn't necessarily true. Now my calculations could be off, but with the skill difference, the epic is practically equal to the AC at that level. It definitely pulls ahead towards 60 but you're looking at just over 2% of a DPS increase with using the epic as your primary over the AC before calculating stun damage and losing out on those sweet sweet stuns which are awesome for any group/solo/duo.

[mumpz]

Using those calcs, epic + SoS is objectively the best non-raid theoretical damage when you don't count procs.

Solo, it looks like AC/SoS is much much better even at level 60.

why does it look much better?

[bradsamma]

why does it look much better?

Sorry, much better when soloing/duoing due to damage mitigation. At 55, the white dps is almost equal.

[Troxx]

If you’re soloing and care about balancing white dmg output and riposte damage intake you’re better off with IFS (or TStaff if you can afforded it). These 2handers are quite competitive with any of the 1hander weapons discussed so far in this thread and the benefit of taking well under 50% the riposte damage.

AC is a good weapon. Almost every monk will bag or sell it when they get their epic.

[bradsamma]

If you’re soloing and care about balancing white dmg output and riposte damage intake you’re better off with IFS (or TStaff if you can afforded it). These 2handers are quite competitive with any of the 1hander weapons discussed so far in this thread and the benefit of taking well under 50% the riposte damage.

AC is a good weapon. Almost every monk will bag or sell it when they get their epic.

Even ignoring the superior riposte numbers, at level 60, if you're averaging 50 total dps against a particular mob, the approximately 2% increase you see with the epic vs AC will net you 1 damage per second more on average.

If you're getting a modest 1.5 procs per minute with the AC, you'll be averaging 1.5 damage per second more.

In this situation, the AC will do marginally more DPS.

With 1.5 procs per minute, you mitigate almost 15% damage from a mob. That is a pretty huge number.

I can however see the epic pulling significantly out over the AC when doing harder content with higher mob armor.

Just because everyone is doing something doesn't make it the superior choice. I'm fully willing to embrace the idea that the epic really is the superior choice in most situations but we should have some sort of evidence for this beyond "most monks do it".

[Troxx]

Do what ya want buddy

[nyclin]

Just because everyone is doing something doesn't make it the superior choice. I'm fully willing to embrace the idea that the epic really is the superior choice in most situations but we should have some sort of evidence for this beyond "most monks do it".

you could.. you know.. provide some parses supporting your arguments instead of just coming in here, asking for opinions, and then saying everyone is wrong because they disagree with you.

the reason most monks use epic + SoS over AC + SoS is that epic+sos parses higher and provides more consistent dmg output mostly due to the lower delay on epic fist. you may get some outlier parses with AC where you get max rolls on all of your MH hits, but over time epic + SoS is certainly going to win out.

after you get epic, literally the only reason to be using AC in MH is for the stun proc.

[bradsamma]

you could.. you know.. provide some parses supporting your arguments instead of just coming in here, asking for opinions, and then saying everyone is wrong because they disagree with you.

the reason most monks use epic + SoS over AC + SoS is that epic+sos parses higher and provides more consistent dmg output mostly due to the lower delay on epic fist. you may get some outlier parses with AC where you get max rolls on all of your MH hits, but over time epic + SoS is certainly going to win out.

after you get epic, literally the only reason to be using AC in MH is for the stun proc.

I did back it up with theoretical calculations. I intend to do some parses because I am genuinely interested in the results.

I would love to hear what people are getting with an average parse of the AC vs epic. 10% increase? 5%? 1%

I'm not saying people are wrong because they disagree with me, I'm saying that they *might be* wrong based on the calculations. Disagree with the calcs or provide your own personal parsing experiences :)

Now those calculations/assumptions very well might be wrong and I would love to have them critiqued.

[Sizar]

This is a tired and SUPER old discussion. Epic / SoS is better when you go through all the numbers, pretty sure a dozen or more monks have parsed this. Just look around at every epic monk you see that isn't rocking raid weapons and you will see epic / sos more often than not.

If everyone is telling you one thing is true, good chance it is. Just because some brain dead morons tell you Game of Thrones is shit doesn't make it true, kinda the biggest thing going on so MAYBE it's actually good??

You're call, but you're going to be wasting your time.

[whitebandit]

This is a tired and SUPER old discussion. Epic / SoS is better when you go through all the numbers, pretty sure a dozen or more monks have parsed this. Just look around at every epic monk you see that isn't rocking raid weapons and you will see epic / sos more often than not.

If everyone is telling you one thing is true, good chance it is. Just because some brain dead morons tell you Game of Thrones is shit doesn't make it true, kinda the biggest thing going on so MAYBE it's actually good??

You're call, but you're going to be wasting your time.

While i agree with you on this one point, there are probably parses that back up the epic/sos being the best, The logic of "everyone says its true so it must be" is a fallacy... Look at religion.... Just because the majority of people believe there is a dude in the clouds playing dungeon master, does not mean its true.

[GinnasP99]

Forgetting about numbers/mitigation for a sec, do you want to see a badass monk bubble fist graphic, or a splintering club.

[bradsamma]

Forgetting about numbers/mitigation for a sec, do you want to see a badass monk bubble fist graphic, or a splintering club.

Haha, touche!

[Sizar]

While i agree with you on this one point, there are probably parses that back up the epic/sos being the best, The logic of "everyone says its true so it must be" is a fallacy... Look at religion.... Just because the majority of people believe there is a dude in the clouds playing dungeon master, does not mean its true.

Oh I agree and understand your point. Basically what I was getting at is if for the last 7 years or however long Kunark and therefore epics have been around, the majority of monks are running around with epic / sos , it probably means that it's actually the best combo. I just may have not used the correct analogy (people who don't watch GoT are doing themselves a disservice) :)

[bradsamma]

So, assuming an even distribution in damage for the ratio, is the damage bonus added after that? Should I be dividing the ratio/strength/skill portion of the damage by 2 THEN adding in the damage bonus before dividing everything by the delay?

The individual mob mitigation makes this more difficult to figure out obviously. I need to start doing some parses. Is Captain Boshinko always level 40? Maybe I'll go do an AFK camp on him with both combinations, doing an hour camp on each one.

[bradsamma]

Oh I agree and understand your point. Basically what I was getting at is if for the last 7 years or however long Kunark and therefore epics have been around, the majority of monks are running around with epic / sos , it probably means that it's actually the best combo. I just may have not used the correct analogy (people who don't watch GoT are doing themselves a disservice) :)

Warriors for a long time were stacking HP to maximize CH. At one point, they realized that if they stacked AC instead (during the time of augments) that they would be able to survive longer between CH's and have less damage spike deaths.

The vast majority of people out there don't parse themselves and just do whatever someone else suggests.

I'm also trying to figure out what the correct damage formula is....

[Lordgordon]

The correct formula is 2019-1999 = fuck your calculations

[Ethereum]

May not be the answer you are looking for but here is a useful tool when comparing monk weapons https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V2vVUwfB7NBXqgfj4ZLnc-KWGy91esVBElY7p8qcnxk/edit#gid=0

[bradsamma]

May not be the answer you are looking for but here is a useful tool when comparing monk weapons https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V2vVUwfB7NBXqgfj4ZLnc-KWGy91esVBElY7p8qcnxk/edit#gid=0

I really wish you could change the strength.... also, I would love to know their equations.

[Ethereum]

I really wish you could change the strength.... also, I would love to know their equations.

Try this one http://www.geocities.ws/luthairsite/weaponCalc.html

[Troxx]

Warriors for a long time were stacking HP to maximize CH. At one point, they realized that if they stacked AC instead (during the time of augments) that they would be able to survive longer between CH's and have less damage spike deaths.

The vast majority of people out there don't parse themselves and just do whatever someone else suggests.

I'm also trying to figure out what the correct damage formula is....

I WAS that warrior on live who parsed the shit out of AC. Between me and Brael (a sk forum leader) we eventually changed minds. The forum battles on thesteelwarrior were epic.

Take it from a dude who parses everything. Epic/SoS > AC/SoS

Or don't and actually parse it for yourself. If you have epic, you have all you need to test your math. Math is a good place to start but the actual code and variability is the fuzzy point. Real life performance does not always match up with the 'math'.

[bradsamma]

Awesome! What was the difference in the two?

[Troxx]

minimal but epic is undeniably better in terms of damage output. Any gains using AC is "potential" and thus theoretical.

If you really want to avoid damage solo/duo, use something like the 38/40 IFS. Realistically, the difference in dmg intake factoring in stun, 2h high delay, etc is negligible.

[kjs86z]

I rock epic + AC and am spending 100% of my XPing from 59 to 60 in sebilis.

Tons of caster mobs. Love getting clutch stuns.

[Bardp1999]

If I'm not using a 2h I prefer pure monk epic fist for DAT PUSH SON

[Ravager]

This is a tired and SUPER old discussion. Epic / SoS is better when you go through all the numbers, pretty sure a dozen or more monks have parsed this. Just look around at every epic monk you see that isn't rocking raid weapons and you will see epic / sos more often than not.

If everyone is telling you one thing is true, good chance it is. Just because some brain dead morons tell you Game of Thrones is shit doesn't make it true, kinda the biggest thing going on so MAYBE it's actually good??

You're call, but you're going to be wasting your time.
Game of Thrones was shit. 90% of the show was people walking and talking about what they did or were going to do instead of actually doing stuff.


Watch it again, you'll be bored out of your skull until you get to the stand out scenes where things actually happen that are sprinkled in here and there.