Single mob camping rules?

[TheAngryRogue]

If, in an open zone, a player is sitting at the spawn point of a particular mob or its PH, and others show up to try and farm that same mob, what is the EXACT rule on contesting this mob?

The no KS rule makes it seem like the first to hit is the owner of said mob and anyone who hits after...is the KSer.

I grew up with Everquest. Anything that isn't part of a grouped "camp" has always been a DPS race. ESPECIALLY in open zones. Hill giants, named pathers, rare spawns...anything, has always been about who can do the most damage, the fastest. Yes this screws over new players just trying to get a quest item or an item they cant afford the price other players are asking, but its been the rule.

All I can find is that camps are to be argued over by the players and that the P99 staff does NOT define what a camp is, though the previous rule states that they can do this....so you can see my confusion. I'm new. I don't have a hundred thousand plat (or whatever ridiculous amount they have. Ive seen stuff selling for 200kpp!!) these farmers already have. I need these camps for gear/coin. Losing them to someones 23rd twinked monk and boxed necro is really pissing me off.

[aaezil]

Welcome to p99 where the rules are inconsistently presented and inconsistently enforced!

[Swish2]

If it's a static mob, and you're waiting for it to respawn and are keeping it cleared... they need to move on.

If it's a static mob, and someone else is already clearing it... you need to move on.

If you're talking about the South Ro Ancient Cyclops (not static, it roams and can appear in different places), its first to engage.

With explaining this kind thing... the more questions you ask, the more questions then follow...

Keep it simple.


EDIT: If you think someone is boxing, report it.

[TheAngryRogue]

That makes sense I guess, thank you Swish2. Ive reported folks, but of course I'm never sure if anything is done.

[I Felt Nostalgic]

Swish is my hero!

[Swish2]

That makes sense I guess, thank you Swish2. Ive reported folks, but of course I'm never sure if anything is done.

They'll never tell you the outcome, but keep reporting. The "no boxing" is what makes the server (for me) much better than some of the others out there.

[Jimjam]

The in game mechanic is dps race. The mechanic is misleading.

The classic policy for camped mobs was enforced sharing via play nice policy (when enforced).

On p1999 one person can 'hold the camp' and keep turning over PHers until they get the item they are after. Once they have the item they can pass the camp onto the person present of their choice. For static spawn mobs someone can 'hold the camp' by being first to arrive at an uncompeted mob between spawns.

Pathing mobs are done FTE (as you say, if someone has already aggroed a mob then anyone else attacking it would be a KSer).

[Karthil]

Nothing on p99 is a DPS race. Everything falls into a few categories:

Camps - difficult to define broadly, but they generally revolve around a single mob (outdoors) or a section of a zone (dungeons). Often, players will also agree to what constitutes a camp in outdoor zones (say, the halfling guards at the wall), even though this is not *technically* the definition of a camp in an outdoor zone.

FTE - Anything that is not a camp is First to Engage. Important to note that this does not mean first to *damage.* One need not damage a mob to engage it. There are rules about stalling for *raid mobs* but there are not similar rules in place for non-raid mobs (to my knowledge).

If two players are each holding a camp, they have the rights to their mobs, so long as they are keeping the camp clear and engaging mobs within a reasonable time (this is also vague, but generally nice people agree that its ~5 min). You *must* maintain a presence at the camp. If you die/LD/zone whatever, you unfortunately lose the rights to that camp (unless you make it back from LD before your mobs pop, then you should be ok).

Players holding a camp can also contest other mobs on an FTE basis (so long as those mobs are not part of someone else's legitimate camp). If two groups each have a camp in, say, Karnor's Castle, they can each pull from a 3rd unclaimed camp on an FTE basis.

Sorry you're having issues with camps/players at camps. It can be a frustrating experience, particularly at popular camps :(

[Rimitto]

I need these camps for gear/coin. Losing them to someones 23rd twinked monk and boxed necro is really pissing me off.
Charm the monster.
Problem solved.:rolleyes:

You can't camp what doesn't exist.:rolleyes:

[loramin]

All I can find is that camps are to be argued over by the players and that the P99 staff does NOT define what a camp is, though the previous rule states that they can do this....so you can see my confusion. I'm new. I don't have a hundred thousand plat (or whatever ridiculous amount they have. Ive seen stuff selling for 200kpp!!) these farmers already have. I need these camps for gear/coin. Losing them to someones 23rd twinked monk and boxed necro is really pissing me off.

Everyone else did a great job of explaining P99's ... unpolished (to put it diplomatically) mob dispute rules. These rules are doubly confusing because not only are they (deliberately) defined in an incredibly vague and ambiguous manner, but they're also significantly different from how things worked on live (which makes perfect sense: live had a paid team of GMs/guides and we just have a few generous volunteers who give their own time to let thousands of other players play a free online game ... so of course our rules have to be different).

But I just wanted to address this last part because it didn't get answered as much. First off, what is a "camp". When the staff says they won't define a camp in advance, they mean a multiple mob camp. In other words, somewhere in the game (and by P99 rules, somewhere indoors) where at least two mobs that drop some cool loot are close enough together that a single player can claim both.

But when players think of the word, they almost always mean a single mob; I'd imagine 99+% of camp disputes aren't between players over two mobs next to each other, they're over a single mob (the last multi-mob camp dispute I can remember was over the Crypt in Sebilis ... which was over a year ago and the staff essentially decided it was four separate camps, not a single camp).

When talking about single mobs, the staff doesn't call that a camp, they call it a spawn point, and as others have explained each player can "camp" a single spawn point (indoor or outdoor). Whether you're camping a spawn point or not, you can engage any other mobs you want ... as long
as they're not coming from someone else's (single) camped spawn point.

Hopefully that clears up the nomenclature. But as for the very last "Losing them to someones 23rd twinked monk and boxed necro is really pissing me off" bit ... this is a server for everyone. New folks and folks who've been here since before Kunark dropped almost a decade ago. For good or for ill, that's EverQuest.

If you want guaranteed mob access, play a game with instances (I hear City of Heroes just experienced a revival, for instance). But if you want to play classic EverQuest, that means accepting that other players, new or experienced, might be doing the camp you want, so you just have to move on to another one.

And to give you ideas for where to go, might I suggest the wiki's Treasure Hunting Guide (link in my signature). Although if you really want my advice, you should go to the Per-Level Hunting guide instead; no one needs plat to level, and at low levels you earn plat extremely slowly, but if you instead focus on leveling you'll hit 60 in no time and at 60 it is much, much easier to earn plat.

[Crawdad]

Losing them to someones 23rd twinked monk and boxed necro is really pissing me off.

It doesn't matter if you've been here 10 years or 10 days, show respect to other players. Everything here is either a camp or FTE. I'm not sure what camp you might be at that's causing you confusion, but nothing is a Dps race. You being in raw hide doesn't give you priority over a 200k-twinked monk. For the most part, especially leveling up/doing the normal camps that people do, being polite goes a long way.

[Menden]

The game is fairly complicated due to there being many types of NPCs/mobs and camps in this game. If you're ever set on camping something and want the guidelines /petition is always an option. But don't lawyer quest us, use common sense. If you don't have that, don't play here. And again, these are BASIC guidelines to follow. If a camp dispute does happen you really, really don't want us involved because there is a chance you or both parties could be kicked out of the zone.

There's two basic zone categories.

Open outdoor zones and dungeon type zones.

Open outdoor zones could be anything from the Karanas, Wastes or Commons.

Dungeon type zones could be anything from MM, COM, hhk, Guks, or Sebilis.


These are very basic guidelines when it comes to camps in this game.

For open outdoor zones you can claim a single spawn point. This may include SF, Hadden or OOT AC. If you're camping these mobs you need to get FTE within a reasonable amount of time.

For dungeon type zones our general guideline is line of sight(LOS)/agro range. This works for pretty much everything. Couple exemptions may be Fungi King or Captain in Karnors because it's not exactly practical to camp on top or within LOS/agro range of their spawns.


Also keep in mind, above is how we as staff see it. There's also player defined camps out there we don't enforce but HIGHLY encourage players follow. Player defined camps may include Sisters in lfay or Gnoll Spires in SK.

TLDR: Don't be a douche.

Does that help?

[I Felt Nostalgic]

Don't be a douche.

Come on man... You know that is asking way too much from certain players.

[Menden]

Come on man... You know that is asking way too much from certain players.

Sorry ><

[Liia]

For open outdoor zones you can claim a single spawn point. This may include SF, Hadden or OOT AC. If you're camping these mobs you need to get FTE within a reasonable amount of time.

For dungeon type zones our general guideline is line of sight(LOS)/agro range. This works for pretty much everything. Couple exemptions may be Fungi King or Captain in Karnors because it's not exactly practical to camp on top or within LOS/agro range of their spawns.


I recently started to camp Alice 4 in PoM after not going there for a few years. A few years ago, 22 and Brenn/Grenn were the only 2 thrones dropper camp. . Due to some infamous like Svenn, Lunatick and others, those were considered 2 separated camps cause you didnt had line of sight on both camps. Now with the addition to Glonk/Grink is it now 4 camps?

I tried to avoid being a dick so far and claiming a camp while the the actual camper is away killing another mob. So, I would like to know if theres a ruling possible to be made there. Usually Brenn/Grenn is main room and if the farmer at least pull them all there it could avoid some problems, cause the dude sometimes leave that room for 15mins killing other PHs then gets back and consider it his camp and some drama may follow.

Anyway, I was wondering if you could make a ruling here Menden, it would be appreciated. Thanks

[loramin]

If you're ever set on camping something and want the guidelines /petition is always an option.

Can we talk about just this part? Would it maybe, just maybe, make sense to publish those rules outside of the in-game petition system (which then gets parroted and turned into pseudo rules passed around the forum)? In other words, can we put what you just wrote, in a more refined form, in the official rules?

I know you GMs like your rules ambiguity so that you have full discretion to make rulings, and you should have that discretion: but can't we get a win win here? Can't you define explicit, public rules that the whole server can be clear on ... while at the same time asserting "but we can do whatever the crap we want in game, we're GMs bitches!!!" ;)

And FWIW I'd freely volunteer my time, in any capacity that I could be useful, to help make that happen. My time's not worth a lot since I'm not staff, but I'm a former Lit major (good at English editing) and wiki addict (good at wiki editing, if we wanted to put the rules in an admin-locked wiki page so we don't have a bunch of different copies floating around the forums ... which would be awesome).

[I Felt Nostalgic]

Can we talk about just this part? Would it maybe, just maybe, make sense to publish those rules outside of the in-game petition system (which then gets parroted and turned into pseudo rules passed around the forum)?

I know you GMs like your rules ambiguity so that you have full discretion to make rulings, and you should have that discretion: but can't we get a win win here? Can't you define explicit, public rules that the whole server can be clear on ... while at the same time asserting "but we can do whatever the crap we want in game, we're GMs bitches!!!" ;)

And FWIW I'd freely volunteer my time, in any capacity that I could be useful, to help make that happen. My time's not worth a lot since I'm not staff, but I'm a former Lit major (good at English editing) and wiki addict (good at wiki editing, if we wanted to put the rules in an admin-locked wiki page so we don't have a bunch of different copies floating around the forums ... which would be awesome).


Here ya go!
https://www.project1999.com/forums/announcement.php?f=33

[loramin]

I recently started to camp Alice 4 in PoM after not going there for a few years. A few years ago, 22 and Brenn/Grenn were the only 2 thrones dropper camp. . Due to some infamous like Svenn, Lunatick and others, those were considered 2 separated camps cause you didnt had line of sight on both camps. Now with the addition to Glonk/Grink is it now 4 camps?

I tried to avoid being a dick so far and claiming a camp while the the actual camper is away killing another mob. So, I would like to know if theres a ruling possible to be made there. Usually Brenn/Grenn is main room and if the farmer at least pull them all there it could avoid some problems, cause the dude sometimes leave that room for 15mins killing other PHs then gets back and consider it his camp and some drama may follow.

Anyway, I was wondering if you could make a ruling here Menden, it would be appreciated. Thanks

Based on those parroted rules passed around in forums, which Menden just summarized (they're not in the official rules document yet, but that post is a HUGE improvement), I'm going predict a ruling.

A multi-spawn camp is two NPCs close to each other (typically within line of site, and usually in the same room) in an indoor zone. PoM isn't an indoor zone, ergo it has no (multi-mob) camps. But the way Menden phrased things, it could be considered a "dungeon". Either way, the only potential "camp" that would qualify in that area would be the twins; all the other "camps" there are one mob per room.

Like any outdoor zone (or indoor/dungeon zone where a multi-spawn camp ruling doesn't apply) each player can camp a single spawn point: the gorilla, or the mouse, or Twenty-Two, or the twins (maybe just one, but since they share a room and PoM is arguably a dungeon I'd imagine they count as one camp).

You have to pick one and only that one is "yours" ... but you can still do the other mobs at A4 (or the rest of Alice), as long as no one else is claiming them as their one spawn point. If you pick the gorilla, and someone else picks Twenty-Two you can't kill Twenty Two ... but you can kill either the mouse or either one of the twins, as long as you beat the guy at Twenty-Two to be the "first to engage" them.

All of that is 100% separate from what the players consider to be "a camp", and the staff would of course encourage you to work things out with any other players there rather than bother them.

How'd I do?

[loramin]

Here ya go!
https://www.project1999.com/forums/announcement.php?f=33

I'm no guide. I <3 this game and this server but I just don't have it in me to play customer service rep to a bunch of entitled players like myself ;) I'm just so grateful that others are and that I get to play on such a well run server as a result of their volunteer efforts.

Instead I look for other opportunities to contribute back to the project. For instance, at former GM Derubael's request I wrote the very detailed (and heavily screenshotted) Titanium Installation Guide that you can find in the wiki.

Doing a rules "revamp" and including stuff like Menden's post in more official language seems like something I might be able to add some value to, but it's entirely up to the staff whether any such project is even warranted.

[I Felt Nostalgic]

I'm no guide. I <3 this game and this server but I just don't have it in me to play customer service rep to a bunch of entitled players like myself ;) I'm just so grateful that others are and that I get to play on such a well run server as a result of their volunteer efforts.

Instead I look for other opportunities to contribute back to the project. For instance, at former GM Derubael's request I wrote the very detailed (and heavily screenshotted) Titanium Installation Guide that you can find in the wiki.

Doing a rules "revamp" and including stuff like Menden's post in more official language seems like something I might be able to add some value to, but it's entirely up to the staff whether any such project is even warranted.

I understand and I guess it would depend on if you were given any forum powers. If you are in any way able to create havoc, I think it would be fair to have you submit a formal application like guides do so you can be monitored if you decide to go rogue at any point.


"With great power comes great responsibility." ~ Uncle Ben

[loramin]

I understand and I guess it would depend on if you were given any forum powers. If you are in any way able to create havoc, I think it would be fair to have you submit a formal application like guides do so you can be monitored if you decide to go rogue at any point.


"With great power comes great responsibility." ~ Uncle Ben

I honestly think the best way to do the rules here isn't in multiple different versions spread out across a bunch of forum threads. I think the best way is to have one place, in the wiki (which can format/display them better), on a page that's locked so only wiki admins can edit it (or maybe even only staff members; that's possible too).

As a wiki admin myself I already have the "power" to make that happen, so I wouldn't need any new privileges to work on such a project. But the "power" isn't really the issue. The issue is the staff has done things a certain way for ten years, and things have gone great (with some hiccups) for ten years here.

They're not going to want to even just move the rules into a single wiki page without thinking over all the possible repercussions, and they certainly aren't going to add rules that they've never even made explicit before today into the official rules without some thought as well. Like I said, I just hope they can find a win-win that lets them continue operating as successfully as they always have, while at the same time making more of the "secret" rules less secret ... and Menden's posting of those rules here gives me immense hope that that's possible.

[I Felt Nostalgic]

I honestly think the best way to do the rules here isn't in multiple different versions spread out across a bunch of forum threads. I think the best way is to have one place, in the wiki (which can format/display them better), on a page that's locked so only wiki admins can edit it (or maybe even only staff members; that's possible too).

As a wiki admin myself I already have the "power" to make that happen, so I wouldn't need any new privileges to work on such a project. But the "power" isn't really the issue. The issue is the staff has done things a certain way for ten years, and things have gone great (with some hiccups) for ten years here.

They're not going to want to even just move the rules into a single wiki page without thinking over all the issues, and they certainly aren't going to add rules that they've never even made explicit before today into a part of the official rules without some thought as well. Like I said, I just hope they can find a win-win that lets them continue operating as successfully as they always have, while at the same time making more of the "secret" rules less secret.

Well then... do I send an owl to Rogean and/or Nilbog?

[Isey]

I'm new to the server (as a regular player, popped in here and there before this more serious play session) and I've spent a lot of time at two camps : Sarnak Courier, single spawn point (20 hours over 5 days) and Ancient Croc, Uguk (level 30-37).

Not once, at either, were there ever a single problem - and tons of traffic at both. People are very polite and respectful and many will buff, and then ask if it wasnt too much trouble if they could be next in line and send them a tell.

Too many rules just makes it easier for a jerk to break them.

(stories:

1. I asked a level 50 on the AC camp if I could kill the Crocs, because they are decent XP, if he got to keep the loot. No problems.

2. I Once I sold a pair of GS Leggings for 100 plat to a guy who didn't want the XP there but really wanted the leggings for a alt. The 100p let him move on and me get the camp. The very next spawn was an AC, that dropped another pair. I tried to give him his money back but he refused and instead, he bought them off of me for full market price to give to another alt.

Anyway, think it's pretty simple and while these are lower level camps the same common sense and kindness can apply.

[Menden]

I recently started to camp Alice 4 in PoM after not going there for a few years. A few years ago, 22 and Brenn/Grenn were the only 2 thrones dropper camp. . Due to some infamous like Svenn, Lunatick and others, those were considered 2 separated camps cause you didnt had line of sight on both camps. Now with the addition to Glonk/Grink is it now 4 camps?

I tried to avoid being a dick so far and claiming a camp while the the actual camper is away killing another mob. So, I would like to know if theres a ruling possible to be made there. Usually Brenn/Grenn is main room and if the farmer at least pull them all there it could avoid some problems, cause the dude sometimes leave that room for 15mins killing other PHs then gets back and consider it his camp and some drama may follow.

Anyway, I was wondering if you could make a ruling here Menden, it would be appreciated. Thanks


I'll defer to Llandris to give a ruling on this one, I have a decent understanding of the mechanics of that zone but I believe he has spent more time in it than I have.

Can we talk about just this part? Would it maybe, just maybe, make sense to publish those rules outside of the in-game petition system (which then gets parroted and turned into pseudo rules passed around the forum)? In other words, can we put what you just wrote, in a more refined form, in the official rules?

I know you GMs like your rules ambiguity so that you have full discretion to make rulings, and you should have that discretion: but can't we get a win win here? Can't you define explicit, public rules that the whole server can be clear on ... while at the same time asserting "but we can do whatever the crap we want in game, we're GMs bitches!!!" ;)

And FWIW I'd freely volunteer my time, in any capacity that I could be useful, to help make that happen. My time's not worth a lot since I'm not staff, but I'm a former Lit major (good at English editing) and wiki addict (good at wiki editing, if we wanted to put the rules in an admin-locked wiki page so we don't have a bunch of different copies floating around the forums ... which would be awesome).

Compiling out solid rules and judgements is above my paygrade. But my first post is a pretty clear guideline. Camp disputes that involve us are pretty uncommon at this point in time. Every situation is different also.


Based on those parroted rules passed around in forums, which Menden just summarized (they're not in the official rules document yet, but that post is a HUGE improvement), I'm going predict a ruling.

A multi-spawn camp is two NPCs close to each other (typically within line of site, and usually in the same room) in an indoor zone. PoM isn't an indoor zone, ergo it has no (multi-mob) camps. But the way Menden phrased things, it could be considered a "dungeon". Either way, the only potential "camp" that would qualify in that area would be the twins; all the other "camps" there are one mob per room.

Like any outdoor zone (or indoor/dungeon zone where a multi-spawn camp ruling doesn't apply) each player can camp a single spawn point: the gorilla, or the mouse, or Twenty-Two, or the twins (maybe just one, but since they share a room and PoM is arguably a dungeon I'd imagine they count as one camp).

You have to pick one and only that one is "yours" ... but you can still do the other mobs at A4 (or the rest of Alice), as long as no one else is claiming them as their one spawn point. If you pick the gorilla, and someone else picks Twenty-Two you can't kill Twenty Two ... but you can kill either the mouse or either one of the twins, as long as you beat the guy at Twenty-Two to be the "first to engage" them.

All of that is 100% separate from what the players consider to be "a camp", and the staff would of course encourage you to work things out with any other players there rather than bother them.

How'd I do?

Pretty good, here's how we expect players to behave when it comes to camps.

If a player/group is holding multiple camps in a zone, that's fine as long as no one else wants them. As soon as another player/group wants one the camps the holder gets the option which single camp they prefer. The new player/group gets to pick their camp and the rest become FTE unless both players/groups work out a deal to split them up. But players must communicate in some fashion so there is no conflict. So, what Loramin said was pretty darn accurate.


A more specific situation that comes up often is Bards and Nobles in hhk, many, many players consider this one camp. But based on the guidelines above, this is a dungeon type zone. So LOS/Agro guidelines come into play even though they are fairly close to eachother. So if a player is holding both and another player shows up, the original player needs to pick one.


Sirken always told me, camp in the room that has the target you want.

[Menden]

I'm new to the server (as a regular player, popped in here and there before this more serious play session) and I've spent a lot of time at two camps : Sarnak Courier, single spawn point (20 hours over 5 days) and Ancient Croc, Uguk (level 30-37).

Not once, at either, were there ever a single problem - and tons of traffic at both. People are very polite and respectful and many will buff, and then ask if it wasnt too much trouble if they could be next in line and send them a tell.

Too many rules just makes it easier for a jerk to break them.

(stories:

1. I asked a level 50 on the AC camp if I could kill the Crocs, because they are decent XP, if he got to keep the loot. No problems.

2. I Once I sold a pair of GS Leggings for 100 plat to a guy who didn't want the XP there but really wanted the leggings for a alt. The 100p let him move on and me get the camp. The very next spawn was an AC, that dropped another pair. I tried to give him his money back but he refused and instead, he bought them off of me for full market price to give to another alt.

Anyway, think it's pretty simple and while these are lower level camps the same common sense and kindness can apply.


And that's how things normally go on the server, a few bad apples cause problems :) I'm glad you've been having great interactions with players.

[loramin]

Thanks for taking the time to respond Menden!

https://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif?noredirect

[DromalPhrenia]

A more specific situation that comes up often is Bards and Nobles in hhk, many, many players consider this one camp. But based on the guidelines above, this is a dungeon type zone. So LOS/Agro guidelines come into play even though they are fairly close to eachother. So if a player is holding both and another player shows up, the original player needs to pick one.

You probably know this, but HHK is an outdoor zone. I always thought counting it as a camp was a player-agreed thing, because no one on the server wants a single mob exp camp.

[Menden]

You probably know this, but HHK is an outdoor zone. I always thought counting it as a camp was a player-agreed thing, because no one on the server wants a single mob exp camp.

Yeah, that's why we say "open outdoor zone", since many dungeon type zones are outdoor like COM and Unrest.

Goblins are kinda weird. It depends which server you played on live there were different rules. Some said it was a single camp, others said it was 3-4 camps. We go by los/agro, so it could be 4 camps.. but who wants that? Guards are the same thing, agro/los. Players try to claim entire floors, doesn't work that way.

[TheAngryRogue]

I honestly did not expect this to be such a big post. Originally I just wanted clarification on a singular issue due to a lack of response to either /petition or /report (Which I now see is disabled. Message was hidden in a tiny spam chat window I have) after having what I thought was a proper camp taken over by someone else and being told to shove off. Then having a mod show up to chastise me when I do the same thing to someone else the next day.

Thank you all for your responses and time and I thank the forum mods/administrators for your patience with this post.

[wtsgoodtime]

I'll defer to Llandris to give a ruling on this one, I have a decent understanding of the mechanics of that zone but I believe he has spent more time in it than I have.



Compiling out solid rules and judgements is above my paygrade. But my first post is a pretty clear guideline. Camp disputes that involve us are pretty uncommon at this point in time. Every situation is different also.




Pretty good, here's how we expect players to behave when it comes to camps.

If a player/group is holding multiple camps in a zone, that's fine as long as no one else wants them. As soon as another player/group wants one the camps the holder gets the option which single camp they prefer. The new player/group gets to pick their camp and the rest become FTE unless both players/groups work out a deal to split them up. But players must communicate in some fashion so there is no conflict. So, what Loramin said was pretty darn accurate.


A more specific situation that comes up often is Bards and Nobles in hhk, many, many players consider this one camp. But based on the guidelines above, this is a dungeon type zone. So LOS/Agro guidelines come into play even though they are fairly close to eachother. So if a player is holding both and another player shows up, the original player needs to pick one.


Sirken always told me, camp in the room that has the target you want.

Further questions on this. I logged into PoM yesterday (maybe 2 days ago?) and found A4 empty and down. After sitting for a few minutes, 1 halfing spawned and I went and got a pet and killed it. While waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn, approximately 10 minutes later, a local friendly shaman (who I would normally find respectable) rolled up with /afk tag on. I didn't think anything of it as I am sitting there holding a charmed pet waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn. A few minutes later, it spawns and the shaman instantly pulls and acts like nothing is wrong.

Now clearly I had the camp... it had been around 20 minutes past the first spawn and the shaman wanted the camp back. I won't name the shaman, but he can feel free to pipe up if he wants. He claimed he didn't know he was in a race. Well, ok, but two things: 1) I am sitting there with a charmed pet and I am there before you (you are 20 minutes late of first spawn). You should at least say something if you think there is a contest. and 2) You can't come back 20 minutes after the camp respawns and retake it with "I didn't know it was a race".

If I am wrong about this, please inform me of the correct rules.

Ultimately, since I don't want to be a dick, I just let him take the camp, broke my charm, calmed my pet, and logged off.

edit: Now my thoughts are these kinds of infractions are not worthy of petitioning someone. I also consider my server reputation when I let people push me off a camp. I'd rather the rules be clearer so I don't have to take a server rep hit nor cause someone to be suspended or banned because of some misunderstanding.

[Zipity]

So he cleared a room full of mobs and only one respawned before he got back is what I am hearing?

[wtsgoodtime]

So he cleared a room full of mobs and only one respawned before he got back is what I am hearing?


There are two mobs in the camp and he arrived ~15 minutes after the first spawn popped but before the second spawn popped.

[Uuruk]

Further questions on this. I logged into PoM yesterday (maybe 2 days ago?) and found A4 empty and down. After sitting for a few minutes, 1 halfing spawned and I went and got a pet and killed it. While waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn, approximately 10 minutes later, a local friendly shaman (who I would normally find respectable) rolled up with /afk tag on. I didn't think anything of it as I am sitting there holding a charmed pet waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn. A few minutes later, it spawns and the shaman instantly pulls and acts like nothing is wrong.

Now clearly I had the camp... it had been around 20 minutes past the first spawn and the shaman wanted the camp back. I won't name the shaman, but he can feel free to pipe up if he wants. He claimed he didn't know he was in a race. Well, ok, but two things: 1) I am sitting there with a charmed pet and I am there before you (you are 20 minutes late of first spawn). You should at least say something if you think there is a contest. and 2) You can't come back 20 minutes after the camp respawns and retake it with "I didn't know it was a race".

If I am wrong about this, please inform me of the correct rules.

Ultimately, since I don't want to be a dick, I just let him take the camp, broke my charm, calmed my pet, and logged off.

edit: Now my thoughts are these kinds of infractions are not worthy of petitioning someone. I also consider my server reputation when I let people push me off a camp. I'd rather the rules be clearer so I don't have to take a server rep hit nor cause someone to be suspended or banned because of some misunderstanding.
I respect your opinion but remind yourself you are farming PoM in 2019.

[wtsgoodtime]

I respect your opinion but remind yourself you are farming PoM in 2019.

What do you mean? It is new-ish to me... I've been bound there for about a month but don't really play a lot.

[loramin]

Further questions on this. I logged into PoM yesterday (maybe 2 days ago?) and found A4 empty and down. After sitting for a few minutes, 1 halfing spawned and I went and got a pet and killed it. While waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn, approximately 10 minutes later, a local friendly shaman (who I would normally find respectable) rolled up with /afk tag on. I didn't think anything of it as I am sitting there holding a charmed pet waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn. A few minutes later, it spawns and the shaman instantly pulls and acts like nothing is wrong.

Now clearly I had the camp... it had been around 20 minutes past the first spawn and the shaman wanted the camp back. I won't name the shaman, but he can feel free to pipe up if he wants. He claimed he didn't know he was in a race. Well, ok, but two things: 1) I am sitting there with a charmed pet and I am there before you (you are 20 minutes late of first spawn). You should at least say something if you think there is a contest. and 2) You can't come back 20 minutes after the camp respawns and retake it with "I didn't know it was a race".

If I am wrong about this, please inform me of the correct rules.

Ultimately, since I don't want to be a dick, I just let him take the camp, broke my charm, calmed my pet, and logged off.

edit: Now my thoughts are these kinds of infractions are not worthy of petitioning someone. I also consider my server reputation when I let people push me off a camp. I'd rather the rules be clearer so I don't have to take a server rep hit nor cause someone to be suspended or banned because of some misunderstanding.

As the Shaman in question I have a slightly different recollection of someone taking a mob from a camp I'd been doing for hours without a problem and then quickly conceding that it was in fact my camp when caught, only to go all Rants and Flames an hour later in OOC on a different character.

Iif you really want to get into this I'll happily share my side of the story in Rants and Flames but not in a rules clarification thread. Suffice it to say that as far as any rules question goes, the rules give a camp holder a reasonable amount of time to re-kill their spawn, and the GMs will make a call in-game using facts they have access to to decide whether someone took a reasonable amount of time or not.

[aaezil]

If you’re afk for 10 minutes its not your camp anymore

[wtsgoodtime]

Hi there Loramin, glad you were able to see this and reply. You say you had been doing the camp for hours and I have no way to knowing... I am going to assume this is true because the mobs were dead when I logged in.

I guess the question is what ends up being a reasonable amount of time to kill the spawns after they pop? Is 15 minutes the new norm? Is it just PoM that gets this leniency?

Also, I wasn't caught doing anything wrong. In fact I informed you that I had killed Brenn already to let you know how late you were to keeping the camp dead.

Not sure what you are talking about with respect to the RnF/OOC? Maybe you ran into camp contention with someone else too? What was the character name?

I am happy to hear your thoughts on how much time you have to keep a camp dead before it is no longer yours but really want to hear from a GM.

[wtsgoodtime]

Also I appreciate your contribution to the community via the guides you have put out. I really don't like getting into arguments with people over camps which is why I usually log out to one of my alts when it occurs. I'd still like rule clarification.

[Zipity]

If you log into dead mobs, and then both didn’t respawn, I’d say you did the right thing by continuing to let him keep the camp, had both spawned then you’d have solid argument to take over depending on how much it was worth it to you. Like ya said always something else to do on EQ I usually won’t move in on a contested camp if I came there and saw everything was dead until I see the camp fully repop(make sure you run fraps of all the mobs popping everyone is a lawyer here!)
#bodycamsforalltoons2019

[loramin]

Hi there Loramin, glad you were able to see this and reply. You say you had been doing the camp for hours and I have no way to knowing... I am going to assume this is true because the mobs were dead when I logged in.

I guess the question is what ends up being a reasonable amount of time to kill the spawns after they pop? Is 15 minutes the new norm? Is it just PoM that gets this leniency?

Also, I wasn't caught doing anything wrong. In fact I informed you that I had killed Brenn already to let you know how late you were to keeping the camp dead.

Not sure what you are talking about with respect to the RnF/OOC? Maybe you ran into camp contention with someone else too? What was the character name?

I am happy to hear your thoughts on how much time you have to keep a camp dead before it is no longer yours but really want to hear from a GM.

Again, if you want to dance in Rants and Flames, that's where this sort of thing belongs. Not here.

[wtsgoodtime]

If you log into dead mobs, and then both didn’t respawn, I’d say you did the right thing by continuing to let him keep the camp, had both spawned then you’d have solid argument to take over depending on how much it was worth it to you. Like ya said always something else to do on EQ I usually won’t move in on a contested camp if I came there and saw everything was dead until I see the camp fully repop(make sure you run fraps of all the mobs popping everyone is a lawyer here!)
#bodycamsforalltoons2019

I hadn't thought of it that way, but it is a good point. Does the entire camp have to respawn before the grace period starts? I do have obs setup, but I don't often run it.

Again, if you want to dance in Rants and Flames, that's where this sort of thing belongs. Not here.

I don't quite know what to think of this... it kind of sounds like you care more about forum rules than in game rules. Either way, I have nothing against you personally, but I would like to know if I was in the wrong to wait for both mobs to respawn and then what the grace period is. From what I have heard previously, it is something like 1-2 minutes, not 15 minutes.

[Gatordash]

I don't quite know what to think of this... it kind of sounds like you care more about forum rules than in game rules.

How dare you, no one likes discussing game rules more than Loramin.

[Agreed]

edit: I know this thread started w/ single mob camps in mind, but I am hoping to take advantage of this level of mod engagement to seek clarification on a common camp that seems like it might not be legit according to the rules, even if the way it is done does make sense.

How bout Goblins in Warslik's Woods? As a lower level I could never level there because it's constantly a goblin murderfest for high levels trying to get Grachnist to spawn and drop the earring. Then, as a higher level, I did it myself - and I get it, if you're after that earring you have to constantly kill the WHOLE FREAKIN' FORT including Grachnist and Pit Fighter Dob that can spawn at any goblin's spot within it, and both of which are high enough level that if you are trying to level as a lower level there you're basically screwed the moment one of them shows up in what you'd be trying to call your camp within the fort itself.

The game design seems to favor that area being dominated by high levels aiming for the drop, imagine if Lord Shin Rae could pop up in any spot orcs spawn at in EC but minus the huge # of high levels to take care of the problem so the newbies can keep going - time to find something else to do for the lower level group suddenly.

But, I can't see how the whole goblin fort at WW can be considered a camp under the rules here. I only ever see it done this way, but is it in line w/ the rules? What should players do with that to avoid it turning into a nasty FTE-fest? When you've been clearing the fort for several hours to try to get the desired spawn, if someone could just come and see a Grachnist up that you haven't engaged yet because you're still running from the other side of the fort and it just popped... That sucks. And I have seen people for the most part respect the camp, respect the effort that goes into killing all the goblins perpetually 'til you get a drop.

Having experienced it relatively recently from both perspectives, I think personally it makes sense as a camp and I think the higher levels doing it are doing the most logical solution to the problem that the fort presents, but is it in-rules or player agreement or what?

[NegaStoat]

For the Goblins in Warslik's woods, the area is divided pretty sharply with cut lines of sight from walls, buildings, and the gorge with the bridge that has additional spawns on the other side. If you are solo, duo, or with a group and approach a person farming Grachnist from every available spawn, I'd just select an area you plan to draw spawns from and politely state your intentions.

Seriously, what is the farmer going to do? Claim they have the whole thing? Of course they can't. The "I'm here first" deal isn't going to cut it when you're talking about an area with 20+ total spawns. The bloodgill goblins in Lake of Ill Omen are the same deal where folks shrug and divide things out even if they'd want to be greedy and take all they can handle. And if the farmer become snotty and holds their ground, by all means record how things were handled with video or screenshots and feed the flames over in RnF. It would make for a great show.

[Agreed]

In every case that I've seen this in person, actually they do claim that they have the whole thing, and that seems to be largely how it works in practice on this server whether it is in keeping with the rules or not. I have seen lower levels negotiate a portion of the fort for their XPing with the understanding that if Grachnist or Pit Fighter Dobby spawns, the higher level will take care of it for them. Which I think is about as equitable as a resolution between players can get in that case. But, in general, if you are High Level #2 showing up and High Level #1 is already killing the fort, you move on and that's considered their camp while they're present and active.

[aaezil]

Unless theres a gm ruling saying that that zone is a “dungeon” then you can only camp 1 spawn point in that zone as far as i understand the rules. Maybe a gm will chime in again.

[loramin]

In every case that I've seen this in person, actually they do claim that they have the whole thing, and that seems to be largely how it works in practice on this server whether it is in keeping with the rules or not. I have seen lower levels negotiate a portion of the fort for their XPing with the understanding that if Grachnist or Pit Fighter Dobby spawns, the higher level will take care of it for them. Which I think is about as equitable as a resolution between players can get in that case. But, in general, if you are High Level #2 showing up and High Level #1 is already killing the fort, you move on and that's considered their camp while they're present and active.

You've just described player convention camps vs. GM enforced camps.

When the staff enforces camp rules, their goal is to force players to share scarce resources. Thus, the rules work towards that goal, and outside of dungeons:

you can only camp 1 spawn point in that zone

That's it: you and whoever you are competing with get 1 spawn point each, and everything else you both have to FTE (ie. you have to be the "first to engage" the monster and it becomes your's). And this is only when someone else shows up; before that you can camp as much as you want.

Inside dungeons you can potentially camp a single "camp" (typically a single room) instead of just 1 spawn point, but again the focus is on forcing players to share the content as much as possible. This is why Crypt in Seb is commonly considered a single camp by players, but if pressed the staff will let individual players camp individual rooms in it.

And that leads us to player-defined camps, which instead are focused on creating a group of mobs that a single player or group can kill within the zone's respawn time. For instance, a single player can solo the LFay Sisters (or a lot of the mobs around Grachnist, or a lot of Bloodgills ... or even all four rooms of the Crypt) in the time it takes for them to respawn, so all of those places are commonly considered a single camp by players.

IF a player wants they can ask the GMs to force a player to share the Sister spawns, in violation of the player defined camp. The staff will back them on this, because it's an outdoor zone and you can only have one spawn point in an outdoor zone ... but they will strongly encourage players to respect the player-defined camp first.

From their perspective, both parties would probably be happier if player #1 could just keep doing all the Sisters, and player #2 went to a different area. But since the server rules force sharing whenever two or more players both want those resources, they will enforce splitting Sisters if a player really wants (server rules trump player-defined camps). Some people believe this sort of thing will happen on Green, because so many players will be competing for popular camps like Sisters.

And of course all of the above is now covered on http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules :)

[Menden]

You've just described player convention camps vs. GM enforced camps.

When the staff enforces camp rules, their goal is to force players to share scarce resources. Thus, the rules work towards that goal, and outside of dungeons:



That's it: you and whoever you are competing with get 1 spawn point each, and everything else you both have to FTE (ie. you have to be the "first to engage" the monster and it becomes your's). And this is only when someone else shows up; before that you can camp as much as you want.

Inside dungeons you can potentially camp a single "camp" (typically a single room) instead of just 1 spawn point, but again the focus is on forcing players to share the content as much as possible. This is why Crypt in Seb is commonly considered a single camp by players, but if pressed the staff will let individual players camp individual rooms in it.

And that leads us to player-defined camps, which instead are focused on creating a group of mobs that a single player or group can kill within the zone's respawn time. For instance, a single player can solo the LFay Sisters (or a lot of the mobs around Grachnist, or a lot of Bloodgills ... or even all four rooms of the Crypt) in the time it takes for them to respawn, so all of those places are commonly considered a single camp by players.

IF a player wants they can ask the GMs to force a player to share the Sister spawns, in violation of the player defined camp. The staff will back them on this, because it's an outdoor zone and you can only have one spawn point in an outdoor zone ... but they will strongly encourage players to respect the player-defined camp first.

From their perspective, both parties would probably be happier if player #1 could just keep doing all the Sisters, and player #2 went to a different area. But since the server rules force sharing whenever two or more players both want those resources, they will enforce splitting Sisters if a player really wants (server rules trump player-defined camps). Some people believe this sort of thing will happen on Green, because so many players will be competing for popular camps like Sisters.

And of course all of the above is now covered on http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules :)

Pretty accurate. EQ is a very social game, we expect players to communicate and work things out between themselves. You have no idea how many players are very quick to /petition instead of opening communication with the other player(s).

People keep bringing up the WW Goblins, it's an open outdoor zone... so FTE. But really, if you see someone keeping it clear you have a couple options.
1. Move on.
2. Split the spawns up.
3. Help clear.

Sitting there waiting for the named to spawn without helping is a pretty shitty thing to do.


Like I've said before, we don't want to get involved in camp disputes. Try to work things out, keep the hysterics down. It's just pixels.

edit: I added some stuff

[Agreed]

I don't see it causing problems very often, just misunderstandings when lower levels who haven't been in the area (a pretty select group tbh at this point) don't know it's actually a pretty bad place to level in the zone since the higher level mobs will wreck a low group & giants are just way better and pretty close

Thanks for the thoughts and perspectives!

[unleashedd]

the greed is still strong here - players claim camps on roamers in outdoor zones, even threaten others with GM involvement, unwilling to share. this thread should be sticky, but not everyone reads forums...