Argent Protector vs. Reaver, 50 Paladin

[1stCrusader]

Need some input here:

Weapon of Interest #1: Argent Protector (42/49, AC:10 + stats)
Weapon of Interest #2: Reaver (40/40 + resists)
Budget: 10k - 12kpp

Class/Level: Paladin, 50

Which is in my best interest to buy, or should I choose neither and focus on something else?

Thanks in advance!

[Snaggles]

The AP’s ratio is on par with a Massive Velium Axe or just a shade worse then the Exquisite line. It has decent stats and can kill undead but the only droppable weapon better at killing the living (than the Reaver) is the Narandi’s Lance which has a required level of 55.

I went from a Iceflame to the Reaver at level 45 and it was basically self-PL. I’m sure I was riding high on placebo drugs but whatever :).

IMHO: Get a reaver and something cheap for undead encounters.

[gradyk]

iceflame better than axe of lost souls?

[Snaggles]

iceflame better than axe of lost souls?

Yea. Better ratio, slower, and the proc scales. I believe in the mid 40's it's like 65dd. A nice cheap 2h.

[Wallicker]

Just my 2 cent.
Make a lower dogs group or just do a /who all velks and send some tells for a couple days and get
https://wiki.project1999.com/Sword_of_Blessings
For FREE.
Then for another 1.5-2k
https://wiki.project1999.com/Sarnak_Battle_Shield

Now you have 10k left for other upgrades YW

[Snaggles]

I’d totally get that sword when possible and even team with a Clay Guardian (400p’ish). I enjoy mine but it can’t be compared to a 1/1 ratio 2h. Not with kill speed at least. You certainly can’t joust with it.

[sacman08]

What are you going for here?? If you want to try to up DPS, Reaver for dmg/dly + resists. It would be a good raid weapon when not MA or secondary tank. Still SK/Pally are both hybrid tanks: we end up just getting hit more than hitting out target. For that you want a good stat 1H and shield for AC + Stats

[Vexenu]

Anyone know what else besides undead (and willowisps) is Reaver unable to hit due to being non-magic?

[Snaggles]

Anyone know what else besides undead (and willowisps) is Reaver unable to hit due to being non-magic?

Most undead, goos in Wakening Lands. A few dragons (trak?). It's pretty much solid for 99% of Velious, most of classic. Kunark it's hit or miss *pun*. :)

[bradsamma]

Nardani's are going for 15k now.

As a Paladin, that is 100% your best bet.

[Snaggles]

Nardani's are going for 15k now.

As a Paladin, that is 100% your best bet.

Last I saw them in the low/mid 20's but either way, yea it's the best weapon a knight can buy 55+. The proc alone is 6dps so even a SK with the lower piercing cap is going to have to have access to something much better.

Hell, I don't know. If they have dropped to the teens it's probably the best damn solo warrior weapon as well. Definitely once the 2h patch happens and the damage bonus scales a bit better.

[Legidias]

Theres a posting in EC forums right now selling at 14k

[fzzzt]

Reaver can hit some undead. I used it to level a lot from 50-60. I know of two zones where it works, at least. =)

[demokatt]

Reaver can hit some undead. I used it to level a lot from 50-60. I know of two zones where it works, at least. =)

tell me!

[Nirgon]

Zombies, mummies and most skeles don't need a magic wep

Ghouls and frog ghouls etc do, some skeles

[Troxx]

To be honest once you can use it at 55 you can’t go wrong with Narandi lance. For paladins piercing and 2hs/b all cap at 225 so you don’t take a hit for going poker. 40/40 vs 44/45 is so close it’s a wash and the dot proc probably makes the lance better damage over time. Lance is good vs every mob in game, reaver is good vs most all but situationally borked.

If I wasn’t a tunare paladin with the easy to get and OP natures defender I’d use one for sure until I got epic. Lance is more dps than epic or ND but in my case 45ac and a stun proc is just too good to pass up.

[Sweeper41]

To be honest once you can use it at 55 you can’t go wrong with Narandi lance. For paladins piercing and 2hs/b all cap at 225 so you don’t take a hit for going poker. 40/40 vs 44/45 is so close it’s a wash and the dot proc probably makes the lance better damage over time. Lance is good vs every mob in game, reaver is good vs most all but situationally borked.

If I wasn’t a tunare paladin with the easy to get and OP natures defender I’d use one for sure until I got epic. Lance is more dps than epic or ND but in my case 45ac and a stun proc is just too good to pass up.

Im curious to know why Natures Defender is Op in your opinion. Its the reason I roll Tunare Half Elf. Other then the ease of which you can acquire it and looks way better IMO to the firery defender

[Troxx]

45ac

I actually lose visible ac when equipping a shield. Shield ac is more potent but from parses I’ve run, hit for hit it’s comparable to wearing a 25 ac shield but end up taking a bit less damage mostly from fewer incoming ripostes.

Pair that with a strong ratio (not great mind you, but strong), 150dd stun proc with a -100 resist mod and nice stats it’s got it all. It looks cool as hell too.

Functional dmg output for now is on par with 27/29 hate blade and will be better after the last patch. It’s both frustrating and nice to have 2 setups that are so evenly matched. For me it’s sword/board when I need to bash casters and 2hander most other times for the mana saving aggro proc and the ability to land most any cast between swings with no loss to white dmg. It’s got that sweet spot delay for spell casts.

It’s good enough I won’t ever be actively working on paladin epic. I personally wouldn’t use any non-ToV or tunare 2hander over it. There are better ratios but let’s be real, we’re talking paladins who don’t put out a ton of dps. More damage from a low dps class is less important than the defensive perks from 45 extra worn ac. As silly as it sounds, it’s my highest worn ac item for now and still will be once I finish my thurg bp to finish the set for my alt.

[Snaggles]

Knights are the best aggro tanks in the game. From a tanking aspect the Natures Defender checks all the right boxes. Throw in the cool looks and ease of acquiring and there is no way I’d waste time on the epic to trade bash for the AC. Plus as Troxx mentioned slow swings make for easy casting without damage loss.

As an Erudite I picked up a Shield of the Stalwart Seas for like 400p. It’s not the ND but does give a nice cheap tank setup when teamed with a Sword of Blessings (45ac total and 104hps at 60 from the 20 stamina ). If you picked a more normal race and don’t have a ND a Clay Guardian Shield and Sword of the Morning is a very serviceable duo for taking hits and generating aggro. Again, for only 800p you can accomplish what a group expects from you.

I still think every pally who doesn’t have god/dragon loot should get a Narandi. It’s a solid DPS/tanking tool and one of the best jousting weapons in the game, especially for a class that can root and helm heal itself while the dot slows it from regenerating hitpoints. While solo work is fairly limited 55+ it does make for some impressive feats of you run across a mob that simply has to die (and you have 20 mins to needle it).

[Troxx]

Solo work I actually found the paladin surprisingly capable. I actually ding’d into and out of level 59 while soloing and probably did about 1/4 of all my 55 xp this way while lfg. I averaged ~35dps with only self buffs and worn haste so kills were 2-3 minutes of fighting plus whatever time was involved with self healing. Could score a dark blue kill per 6-7 minutes ... or about the same xp over time as a full group averaging a dark blue kill per 60-80 seconds. Not bad when you think about it; you just have to be selective about where you hunt. Duo with a necro (2-3x kill speed plus heals) was my favorite duo there.

KC in the turnkey room was perfect. Easy lull single pulls to a safe spot with mobs that are mostly all dark blue at 59. I did a lot of helmet healing until 59. At 59 time spent medding and using celestial cleansing was only a hair less time efficient than spamming that helmet. It allowed me to manually cast a better buff and also have a more relaxed session. It’s so much more chill to just semi-afk med vs having to click that helmet over and over ( and over and over and over).

Narandi is super nice. I’d have gotten one if I didn’t already have ND. The dot proc, as mentioned above, is a huge boon to the solo paladin. 32-36/tick for 1.8 minutes is a free 600-650 damage that cooks the mob away. Over that same time period you can helmet heal yourself for 1200-1800 in free clicks.

[Crede]

Knights are the best aggro tanks in the game. From a tanking aspect the Natures Defender checks all the right boxes. Throw in the cool looks and ease of acquiring and there is no way I’d waste time on the epic to trade bash for the AC. Plus as Troxx mentioned slow swings make for easy casting without damage loss.

Funny how you say "AC vs Bash" in regards to Pally Epic vs ND when in reality, there's so much more than that.

It's more like... 30 AC vs:

-100x better fashion - ND is basically the gold version of the Centi longsword - lame
-Not limited to the 2 worst races for Pally fashion - HIE(lol) & HEF(meh)
- Sacrificing 10 dex for 10 extra str, 10 sta, 5 extra wis, 45 extra hp, 5 extra mana, 10 MR/FR/CR (Who cares about 5 less PR/DR?)
- Bash with a 2H - considering this is the only way Pallies can bash with a 2h, and considering some people roll large races because of the ability to 2H bash, this is a pretty big deal.
- Better ratio which Pallies need all the help they can get

Pally epic is not hard, it's annoying. But the drops are consistent. It's not hard to source the Naggy/Vox books, and the rest of the spawns you can park toons there to check spawns and kill with ease when they do pop assuming you have a few friends.

What's the rush to 60? Enjoy the journey. Pally epic was one of the most rewarding quests I've ever done in this game. Get it and enjoy all it has to offer, including looking better than most around in a game where fashion is arguably the most important. So those pallies out there debating between epic and an ND race, well you've already chosen a rare class. Go ahead and obtain a rare fiery sword while you're at it.

[Troxx]

It's more like... 30 AC vs:

-100x better fashion - ND is basically the gold version of the Centi longsword - lame
-Not limited to the 2 worst races for Pally fashion - HIE(lol) & HEF(meh)
- Sacrificing 10 dex for 10 extra str, 10 sta, 5 extra wis, 45 extra hp, 5 extra mana, 10 MR/FR/CR (Who cares about 5 less PR/DR?)
- Bash with a 2H - considering this is the only way Pallies can bash with a 2h, and considering some people roll large races because of the ability to 2H bash, this is a pretty big deal.
- Better ratio which Pallies need all the help they can get.

-subjective, not objective
-subjective, not objective
-objective observation, subjective opinion on whether the loss is worth it or not. I don’t mind the stat difference. I’d give up those stats for 30ac 10 str (don’t need it) 10 stamina and 45 mana for 30ac. I do wish the 30 resists on ND were applied to others.
-objective truth. If I need to bash a shield equip is never more than 2-3 clicks away.
-objective truth. The epic has 0.88 ratio. ND is 0.83 ratio. It’s there but not significant. With a 40 delay and 100% haste a person is more likely to miss out on swings vs slower delay.

I prefer ND in most all ways other than lack of 2h bash.

[Snaggles]

Funny how you say "AC vs Bash" in regards to Pally Epic vs ND when in reality, there's so much more than that.

It's more like... 30 AC vs:

-100x better fashion - ND is basically the gold version of the Centi longsword - lame
-Not limited to the 2 worst races for Pally fashion - HIE(lol) & HEF(meh)
- Sacrificing 10 dex for 10 extra str, 10 sta, 5 extra wis, 45 extra hp, 5 extra mana, 10 MR/FR/CR (Who cares about 5 less PR/DR?)
- Bash with a 2H - considering this is the only way Pallies can bash with a 2h, and considering some people roll large races because of the ability to 2H bash, this is a pretty big deal.
- Better ratio which Pallies need all the help they can get

Pally epic is not hard, it's annoying. But the drops are consistent. It's not hard to source the Naggy/Vox books, and the rest of the spawns you can park toons there to check spawns and kill with ease when they do pop assuming you have a few friends.

What's the rush to 60? Enjoy the journey. Pally epic was one of the most rewarding quests I've ever done in this game. Get it and enjoy all it has to offer, including looking better than most around in a game where fashion is arguably the most important. So those pallies out there debating between epic and an ND race, well you've already chosen a rare class. Go ahead and obtain a rare fiery sword while you're at it.

I'm glad you like it.

30 AC is still a metric ton of AC. It's 5 more AC than a SBS.
Very arguable on the fashion front
Very few people roll big races only for shield-less bash.
If you want ratio get a Narandi for the price of a book of scale or Reaver for half the cost and way less effort (plus they have some resale value if you want to liquidate.

IMHO, which is mostly what this comes down to, the ND or FD are both grind tank weapons. Nobody *should* be using them on raids unless for offtanking. For that reason like most the crap paladins have it's a fashion and fun piece.

The pally epic is probably one of the most optional epics in the game. I'm not saying it sucks; I'm saying it's far from a class-changer. It was the first one so they made it the most complicated (even if not "hard"). They should have made the stun like 6 seconds since the SK epic friggin heals you. It's not a bad weapon at all...just not worth the effort if you are an elf when your quasi-epic is easier to pick up than a couch from Ikea.

[Classicranger]

45ac

I actually lose visible ac when equipping a shield. Shield ac is more potent but from parses I’ve run, hit for hit it’s comparable to wearing a 25 ac shield but end up taking a bit less damage mostly from fewer incoming ripostes.

Pair that with a strong ratio (not great mind you, but strong), 150dd stun proc with a -100 resist mod and nice stats it’s got it all. It looks cool as hell too.

Functional dmg output for now is on par with 27/29 hate blade and will be better after the last patch. It’s both frustrating and nice to have 2 setups that are so evenly matched. For me it’s sword/board when I need to bash casters and 2hander most other times for the mana saving aggro proc and the ability to land most any cast between swings with no loss to white dmg. It’s got that sweet spot delay for spell casts.

It’s good enough I won’t ever be actively working on paladin epic. I personally wouldn’t use any non-ToV or tunare 2hander over it. There are better ratios but let’s be real, we’re talking paladins who don’t put out a ton of dps. More damage from a low dps class is less important than the defensive perks from 45 extra worn ac. As silly as it sounds, it’s my highest worn ac item for now and still will be once I finish my thurg bp to finish the set for my alt.

Dang now I am fired up to go level my Paladin to 46 so I can get my ND...

[Troxx]

It's easy if you have a guild that can do hate, otherwise the MQ from hate should not cost much. The other mobs are cake easy just have to watch for them to be up (unicorn specifically)

[Ennewi]

It really comes down to personal preference. But that's a solid argument against the Fiery Defender, with its needed quest piece (Book of Scale) costing more than Narandi's Lance.

As stylish and iconic as Natures Defender looks, and as well as Narandi's Lance complements the class, the Fiery Defender still holds roleplay and fashionquest value, having the appearance of a controlled burn and being the ultimate equipped lightsource in Norrath. Though probably more of a status symbol now for BiS completionists, for humans and erudites back in classic the FD must have been a godsend, almost a night and day difference when wielding it in poorly-lit dungeons or meadows at dusk. (What happens in the meadow at dusk? Nothing. Everything.) Also, it's interesting that the fire never dies, even when its wielder has, with its light passively assisting them in locating corpse versus night blindness. So it's not just a decorative particle effect, but one that's situationally useful.

The proc on FD and ND are a nice addition but, for all of the work put into completing the epic, it seems unlikely that a more substantial effect would have drawn much outcry from other classes. A moderate self-heal (blue text: cauterize wound) proc would have set the epic apart from future raid drops, at least situationally, much in the way that Innoruuk's Curse is still swapped in by Shadow Knights during raids to counter AoE damage.

[Crede]

To all those ND fanboys, know you’re settling for an inferior weapon compared to epic.

I’d agree with snaggles though proc shoulda been better, but no more stuns. Shoulda been at Least 300 dmg, Compared to the sk epic. They did get the finally get the pally 2.0 right though, I believe it was the first weapon to break 100 base dmg. It looked like a weapon the white walkers woulda used in GOT.

[Legidias]

10% effort compared to getting epic for roughly 90% effectiveness

[Snaggles]

10% effort compared to getting epic for roughly 90% effectiveness

20 years ago our guild had a spare skull in the bank and the corrupted spawns were up in WL. I want to say the whole thing took half an hour.

Or you can sit in Everfrost for days and then try to rally people to run across West Karanas. Unless that is, you hand out Everfrost port potions for 400p each.

The merits of each sword can be debated all day long (I'd love either in a grind group). The ease of one over the other is a conversational non-starter.

[Crede]

Or you can sit in Everfrost for days and then try to rally people to run across West Karanas. Unless that is, you hand out Everfrost port potions for 400p each.


Lol, you think that’s what it takes to get a mob like that?

No wonder you’re after a ND.

[Snaggles]

Lol, because that’s what it takes to get a mob like that?

No wonder you’re after a ND.

I have an erudite, so not really.

[Troxx]

ND isn't a weapon to "settle for". It's good all by itself. For the Tunare diety paladin it's almost as good as epic for 1% the effort.

[Crede]

ND isn't a weapon to "settle for". It's good all by itself. For the Tunare diety paladin it's almost as good as epic for 1% the effort.

I find it funny that the guy who is on pace to have a lvl 60 of every class uses “effort” as an excuse not to get a weapon.

Anyway, to each their own. I’ll enjoy my pally epic.

OP like others have said if you can tolerate the look of a 2h piercing weapon then lance is no doubt your best bet given your budget. Since you’re not 55 yet look for a cheap alternative until then, maybe try to get a sword of blessings from velks.

[demokatt]

I'm rocking a Reaver solo on my warrior at the moment soon level 50. Do you think it would be better DPS at level 50-55 using dual wield instead, like a 10/18 MH and frostbringer second hand. Altough I kinda like the BIG hits :-P

Many say that 2 blood points and truncheon of doom is nice for solo.. you who have tried it, do you usually manage to get a slow proc in the beginning of the fight? I know on my ranger I had problem often that the 2 hand slow sword (cant remember its name) didnt proc and then u just ended up loosing alot of dps on the way.

[Snaggles]

For solo a reaver or lance is probably better albeit it streaky. Not as random as ToD procs or crips but still. You can always get a FB and put something decent (snare whip) in the offhand to see...the 10/18 isn’t going to be significantly better.

Where a ranger and swarmcaller works well is root-jousting until a proc. If it never works a 29/0 ratio is still very good even when the mob resets their swing timer as well. A warrior obvs prefers a early proc but can survive way better. With sow or root nets you can still joust a npc hoping for a proc. Without a slower in a group that’s a great tool to have in the bag regardless.

IMHO, killing low blues that are possible simply with ToD ratio should be the goal. That way the slow (and switch to reaver/Lance) is being used for average damage savings rather than being able to kill something you had a snowballs chance of hell in doing without it. Less deaths and scrambling to the zone at 5% as well.

[demokatt]

I never tried jousting.. do I use sow and just run around and let mob come closer until I hit and then run again?

Also, is it true that less haste better for proc?
So its worth removing haste belt during trying go get a slow proc in?

[Legidias]

Procs are based on time (1/min ignoring DEX benefits). A weapons attack speed is factored into that, so that each swing has a %chance to proc based on hitting that 1 proc/min. That is why slow weaps have a higher %proc chance per hit than say, a 15 delay weapon (if delay was so slow to hit only once a minute, theoretically it would have 100% chance to proc every hit).

If you really want to joust, haste doesnt really have any meaning.

If you wanted to min/max proc on a regular fight, I would say take off any haste for first hit to max chance of proc there, but then put haste back on for white DPS.

[Snaggles]

Legidias summed it up well.

Yea I wouldn't sacrifice white dmg in hopes to slightly increase your rnd dice roll. If trying to solo something you can't without slow I would invest in some root nets. You can take advantage of weird pathing or sow speed via jousting though. Otherwise just stick to slightly easier mobs.

If grouping without a slower that ToD is going to save your group a metric ton of mana (on average over the course of the grind). With a couple dps players your own dps becomes less significant so even a 30% better ratio is doing far to benefit the team than potentially reducing npc dmg intake by 50%. You will get some one-hit procs and some no-hit procs. It will average out nicely over time.

[Troxx]

Many say that 2 blood points and truncheon of doom is nice for solo.. you who have tried it, do you usually manage to get a slow proc in the beginning of the fight? I know on my ranger I had problem often that the 2 hand slow sword (cant remember its name) didnt proc and then u just ended up loosing alot of dps on the way.

As with anything, there's a big part of that which is luck. If you haven't neglected your dexterity that one weapon is worth its weight in gold. If the price were 50k instead of 7-10k, I still would have prioritized buying it.

My main has kept 2 blood points and a trunch in bag since level 50. They are invaluable and I'd never consider giving them up. For solo work you net more non-stop killing power potential leading off with trunch then going BPs following. It's less dps than some weapon alternatives for sure but the longer kill time is completely offset by 55% slow on the mobs and up to 240 passive heals per minute (while doing 240 dmg per minute) if you can score buffs to get you to 255 dex. At that range I never had reaver level weaponry but my dual wield weapons were not bad. 10/21 x2 with 80hp lifetaps is decent output and pretty solid heal potential over time. ToD ratio is actually not bad (not good mind you, but not bad). Having an early or even mid-fight trunch proc kept me rolling with a lot less down time than any other alternative.

How effectively these (or any proc weapons for that matter) serve you depends on your dexterity. I went dwarf warrior with points dumped into dexterity and don't regret it. 1-2 more good gear upgrades and I'll buff to 255 stamina so I don't feel like I missed out to be honest.

So yeah, regarding truncheon ... mine has gotten a lot of use solo/group and even (rarely) pseudo-raid. It certainly made grouping or duo/trio without ench/sham a lot easier. As for blood points ... these again still get use at 60 whether faction grinding in WL or to help out offsetting the damage i'm receiving passively via rampage or actively when tanking in situations where healers are otherwise occupied or lacking torpor/cheal. It helped a ton grouping with druid primary healers or shamans sub-60 or 60 but not yet with torpor. 2 of them at 60 tends to net me 55-60dps buffed on non-raid targets. A higher ratio set might see me floating 5-15dps higher depending on mob level.

TLDR: my experience soloing (which i did more than a little bit of) got really a lot easier when I hit 50 and could proc these weapons. Leading off with a slow proc then swapping to 2 BPs always net me more total xp over time by minimizing my down time recovering. Any loss in dps compared to other weapons I had was more than offset by taking a lot less damage over time with slow followed by passively proc-healing back some of my losses.

Your mileage may vary

[demokatt]

Thanks for advice.. as soon as I get 50 I will trade my reaper for 2 bp and a tod and try it out

[Crede]

Thanks for advice.. as soon as I get 50 I will trade my reaper for 2 bp and a tod and try it out

Hopefully you were smart and rolled gnome for access to 40% self spell haste.

Oh how I wish there were gnome sks in velious for this reason

[demokatt]

Yes I did:-)