Raid rules regarding trackers

[ReadOnly]

Sorry, I'd post to Raid Discussion but apparently no one is allowed to post there, but I had 2 questions I'd like clarified.

Q15: Are either of my two trackers allowed to get FTE?
A: Absolutely not. If one of your trackers gains FTE, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Furthermore, if a guild gets FTE, any other guilds that are tracking the mob and end up with tracker FTE as a result of the first guild are not DQd from the mob.


If the tracker zones out and back in, they are no longer considered a tracker, correct? (zone out, not camp out)

Trackers are not prohibited from fighting FTE mobs, only getting FTE, correct?

[rezzie]

1. We've treated toons parked for that mob as a tracker regardless of whether they zone after spawn. Once a tracker, always a tracker (for that spawn).
2. We've taken it to mean trackers cannot be involved in a fight in any capacity, other than mages being used to COTH others. Basically, if you were tracking you shouldn't be on the engage log.

Not sure if that's how other guilds interpret them, but that's how we do. Clarification wouldn't hurt.

---

As a result of (2), when we have guildies doing turn-ins we also ensure they do not engage in the fight - they sit it out, even if de-guilded for a turn-in.

If we have multiple mages parked we also ensure that we only two get logged in. The rest are COTHed up. Logging in a third parked toon past "the line" breaches the two tracker limit, imo.

[Arvan]

If you are a tracker and you got on the mobs hate list you broke the rules is how i understand it but the rules aren't very well presented here :(

[ReadOnly]

If you are a tracker and you got on the mobs hate list you broke the rules (

The rule is pretty specific to FTE, no?

[ReadOnly]

Unrelated: Can we open up the Raid Discussion board to everyone? The few times people post there, no one even replies or Discusses anything.

[loramin]

Unrelated: Can we open up the Raid Discussion board to everyone? The few times people post there, no one even replies or Discusses anything.

In relatively rare occasions guild leadership needs a way to discuss matters without every member of the forum chiming in with their two cents. I could see the devs creating a "Guild Leadership Summit" forum or something and opening up "Raid Discussion" to all ... but I suspect that it would quickly become "Rants and Flames 2" and that's why they haven't.

Personally, I think the staff needs to start utilizing the player base to offload their work. How cool would it be if there was some kind of rules liaison who was a player volunteer? It could be their job to compile all rulings in some central place and talk to the staff say once a month to get updates and answers to the community's rules questions. Every player with a rules question/issue would then know to talk to that volunteer and not bug the staff (for rules clarifications; to get a ruling for their specific case they'd still talk to a GM).

Just like that the staff could be super clear about what rules they want people to know about, what details they want people to know about them, and which rules they've left deliberately ambiguous because they aren't ready to define them further yet ... and they could do it with just a half-hour (or however long) session with the "rules liaison" once a month.

I dunno if it's actually a viable idea, but I just think we could make this server better and maybe improve some things that haven't always been its strength (eg. rules clarity) by coming up with new and clever ways to make us players do the staff's work for them.

[ReadOnly]

In relatively rare occasions guild leadership needs a way to discuss matters without every member of the forum chiming in with their two cents. I could see the devs creating a "Guild Leadership Summit" forum or something and opening up "Raid Discussion" to all ... but I suspect that it would quickly become "Rants and Flames 2" and that's why they haven't.
Easy. "No trolling."

RNF needs to stay in RNF. The fact we have a Raid Discussion board that is locked out and no one uses is one of the reasons we have so many disputes ingame and people wig out in RNF.

[indiscriminate_hater]

bring back NSFW imo

[loramin]

Easy. "No trolling."

RNF needs to stay in RNF.

Not easy: any rule requires staff time and effort to enforce. Not saying it's impossible, just saying the reality is we have limited volunteer staff, and the latest signs show they don't have tons of free resources available. Creating one more place they have to police, while rabid raiders fighting with each other and create lots more work, could be problematic. In a sense the lack of such a forum, which drives such discussions to RnF, is a sort of "pressure valve" that saves staff from this.

The fact we have a Raid Discussion board that is locked out and no one uses is one of the reasons we have so many disputes ingame and people wig out in RNF.

It might be one, but I think there are many other bigger ones.

[ReadOnly]

just saying the reality is we have limited volunteer staff, and the latest signs show they don't have tons of free resources available.

I just can't agree with this. You and I are posting in this thread right now. It's taking us, what, 30-60 seconds to post? How long do you think it takes to look at a post, see if it contains someone saying "durr fuck your guild" or whatever, and click Ban or Suspend User? It would take less time than it takes to write up a single reply that we are doing right now. And when that happens, lets say, 3-5 times, and people start to realize "oh wow they are banning people for trolling" then the trolling stops. It's that simple. Literally 30 seconds a day would fix a lot of this.

I just can't buy into this "lack of free resources" thing. How is it that the players can have infinite free time while the staff is always tied up elsewhere? How long are we going to accept the "staff is busy" argument as a legitimate reason for putting up with trolling, almost no clear rules, the constant breaking of the few actual clear rules?

Hell, I came here asking for clarification about a specific rule and got 4 replies, the first 2 people actually gave their opinion, the 3rd person (you) ignored the question, and the 4th gave a troll response of allowing porn on the forum.

I expect trolling in RNF, but elsewhere (or more specifically, in a Raid Discussion forum or thread) it should be bannable.

Again, all that is unrelated to my original query. Which was about how Trackers are considered. Going by the "rule" I'd say zoning out and back in clears the "Tracker" status. Otherwise, the rules would favor people with "tracker bots" over people who track using their actual playable character, which would be ridiculous.

[aaezil]

People bait/troll in server chat all the time and dont catch bans. Where do you think you are - daybreak forums?

[loramin]

I just can't agree with this. You and I are posting in this thread right now. It's taking us, what, 30-60 seconds to post? How long do you think it takes to look at a post, see if it contains someone saying "durr fuck your guild" or whatever, and click Ban or Suspend User? It would take less time than it takes to write up a single reply that we are doing right now. And when that happens, lets say, 3-5 times, and people start to realize "oh wow they are banning people for trolling" then the trolling stops. It's that simple. Literally 30 seconds a day would fix a lot of this.

I just can't buy into this "lack of free resources" thing. How is it that the players can have infinite free time while the staff is always tied up elsewhere? How long are we going to accept the "staff is busy" argument as a legitimate reason for putting up with trolling, almost no clear rules, the constant breaking of the few actual clear rules?

Hell, I came here asking for clarification about a specific rule and got 4 replies, the first 2 people actually gave their opinion, the 3rd person (you) ignored the question, and the 4th gave a troll response of allowing porn on the forum.

I expect trolling in RNF, but elsewhere (or more specifically, in a Raid Discussion forum or thread) it should be bannable.

Again, all that is unrelated to my original query. Which was about how Trackers are considered. Going by the "rule" I'd say zoning out and back in clears the "Tracker" status. Otherwise, the rules would favor people with "tracker bots" over people who track using their actual playable character, which would be ridiculous.

You're entirely focused on what you want, and how you want things to be. I'm just trying to give you a dose of reality ... but if you don't want it then keep going off on how easy it is to run this server/forum.

But personally I suspect the staff will give a rules clarification when, and only when, they feel like it, not because someone in the forum asked for one. And I say that because you are far from the first person to come here expecting a rules clarification (and historically they don't often get answered).

[ReadOnly]

keep going off on how easy it is to run this server/forum.

I said nothing of the sort. I've seen you rail against people in other threads about putting words in your mouth, try not to do the same to others.

[ReadOnly]

you are far from the first person to come here expecting a rules clarification (and historically they don't often get answered).

What's your point? Since that's how it is that's how it should always be? Sorry for trying to make this better for everyone.

[loramin]

My point is, the staff is busy with many things. Not just rules issues, and certainly not any given player's pet rules issue. Lately they've barely made any appearances, for any reason, at all in these forums. But of course they do care about rules on this server, and will address issues when they feel it appropriate to do so.

So be patient and wait. Or post a ton ... but just be realistic in your expectations. And that means not expecting staff to drop everything and answer any given player's pet rules question because said player expects an answer then, because things just don't usually work like that here.

Oh and for:
keep going off on how easy it is to run this server/forum.I said nothing of the sort. I've seen you rail against people in other threads about putting words in your mouth, try not to do the same to others.

I'm not putting words into your mouth:

I just can't agree with this. You and I are posting in this thread right now. It's taking us, what, 30-60 seconds to post? How long do you think it takes to look at a post, see if it contains someone saying "durr fuck your guild" or whatever, and click Ban or Suspend User? It would take less time than it takes to write up a single reply that we are doing right now. And when that happens, lets say, 3-5 times, and people start to realize "oh wow they are banning people for trolling" then the trolling stops. It's that simple. Literally 30 seconds a day would fix a lot of this.

I just can't buy into this "lack of free resources" thing. How is it that the players can have infinite free time while the staff is always tied up elsewhere? How long are we going to accept the "staff is busy" argument as a legitimate reason for putting up with trolling, almost no clear rules, the constant breaking of the few actual clear rules?

I will say one thing I agree with in that though: the staff does have limited time, and the players have a lot more. If the staff can find clever ways to offload work onto the players, I think it could lead to improvements here for everyone.

[ReadOnly]

You are. I said it's easy to ban people, not your hyperbolic extrapolated "easy to run the server/forum."

[loramin]

Maybe I shouldn't have thrown in "server/". /shrug. I was lumping it all together because "staff work" is spread between those two things.

But the point remains that you're only thinking from things from your side: how easy everything seems to you, and why it should therefore be easy to get the answer you want right now.

It's a lot harder to moderate a forum (and run a server) than you're admitting, and your failure to see that is part of why you keep missing the key fact: the staff act on their own timetable, not when any given player wants something. Their operating that way has enabled them to run this server successfully for ten years. They're very good at what they're doing and how they do it, and pot shots from the peanut gallery about how easy it would be to make one player happier by doing something different aren't likely to change that operating pattern.

But look, if you're unhappy about that fact, feel free to attack me as a proxy. Won't do any good, but you might feel better.

[ReadOnly]

But the point remains that you're only thinking from things from your side: how easy everything seems to you, and why it should therefore be easy to get the answer you want right now.
It take 30-60 seconds to read a post and write a quick answer. That is easy. That is not debatable.

It's a lot harder to moderate a forum (and run a server) than you're admitting, and your failure to see that


I've never claimed it was easy to moderate a forum or run a server, therefore I've failed at nothing. You, on the other hand, are failing to read and are impressing your own claims upon me. This is not the first time I've seen you do this. It's not even the first time I've seen you do that IN THIS THREAD.


the staff act on their own timetable, not when any given player wants something.

Again, what's your point? Of course they do what they want. I never demanded anyone do anything. Suggestions/questions do not remotely equal demands.

enabled them to run this server successfully

Run the server? Certainly. Successfully? Judging from a lot of the complaints on this forum (yours included), debatable. Again, uptime does not equate to success.

[Bardp1999]

The staff read this forum all day everyday. Anytime BigJ has a melt down and starts posting dick pics he is almost immediately banned. Big brother is watching, do not fool yourself - however not everyone is a thin skinned wiener boy like you ReadOnly

[ReadOnly]

The staff read this forum all day everyday. Anytime BigJ has a melt down and starts posting dick pics he is almost immediately banned. Big brother is watching, do not fool yourself - however not everyone is a thin skinned wiener boy like you ReadOnly

Thanks for answering the tracker question. OH WAIT YOU DIDN'T! :eek::eek::eek:

[rezzie]

Oh, one thing to add to the original discussion:

Aftermath, Azure Guard, Blood Guard, Core and Paradigm Shift had an understanding that any classes involved in a tracking / FTE / COTH role must be guild tagged.

There were some concerns that untagged toons could be used to dodge concessions from tracker FTEs, or circumvent the two tracker limit (more so now there are an increasing number of multi-guild raid alliances).

As far as I'm aware ALS (AEGIS?) is the only entity to have taken exception to it; they refuse to agree unless it is GM enforced.

[ReadOnly]

Are there already 2 ALS tagged trackers in zone? Or 3+ untagged players? If there's 1 untagged person in zone, what's the big deal?

[Troxx]

Volunteer staff. They owe us nothing. Their time table, not ours.

[bigjeff100]

The staff read this forum all day everyday. Anytime BigJ has a melt down and starts posting dick pics he is almost immediately banned. Big brother is watching, do not fool yourself - however not everyone is a thin skinned wiener boy like you ReadOnly

BigJ, You wouldn't dare!!!!!!

[rezzie]

Are there already 2 ALS tagged trackers in zone? Or 3+ untagged players? If there's 1 untagged person in zone, what's the big deal?

Let’s say AM has two tagged coth mages on poop mountain and a third untagged mage is there. That untagged mage starts cothing down AM players.

Much easier to police amongst players if trackers are tagged.

[Baylan295]

Let’s say AM has two tagged coth mages on poop mountain and a third untagged mage is there. That untagged mage starts cothing down AM players.

Much easier to police amongst players if trackers are tagged.

It’s a good rule. No reason to hide your tag except schenanigans.