Warrior Weapon HATE Tables

[Cerate]

Hi guys

I've been working on some sheets (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YGrN6xcPBHOSrXqlubLzxSo4wNTcgS5D/view?usp=sharing) to show the hate generation of most warrior-equippable weapons, kinda like that Kunark-era pdf that Yaolin posted in 2014. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143899)

Biggest difference is I've sorted by the white hate (melee) column instead of the total hate generated including procs. Procs help a lot in the long run, but I think many warriors prefer a good ratio these days to get as much reliable snap aggro as possible.

[Solist]

What?

All your proc figures are way off.

and your statement is blanket wrong, and stupid.

[Xaeophi]

Sceptre of destruction best eh? :)

[Wallicker]

Do it again with 100% haste applied to every weapon, I like this chart good work interesting too!

[Solist]

Sod is so far ahead of anything else it's not funny. Feverblade 2nd. Then the list muddies and it's all largely irrelevent.

Last patch changed everything. Warrior peak potential aggro dropped by about 40% (from feverblade/WESS to Sod+SoD)

So all your figures are way off considering last patch.

[Troxx]

Your proc hate values are way off.

Edit: way way way off

Edit2: for example having ykesha proc at 775 vs 500 for infestation proc and 400 WESS? No ...

Just no.

Threat was nerfed but WESS still has 4 poison counters + blind + debuff. Proc for proc poison on infestation kicks the shit out of ykesha proc.

Edit 3: trident of the deep sea proc 750 but willsapper 400?

No ...

Edit 4: snare was never 450 hate. Closer to 300 before the patch

Edit 5: granted the chart doesn’t factor in haste but SSoY puts out 2500 a minute vs infestation 1933?

Do you play a warrior? Have you used these weapons? I keep several of these weapons in my bag. I can promise you silken whip of ensnaring is not competitive aggro but you have it above WESS and infestation. It isn’t. You have frostbringer also way above infest/WESS but it’s not.

Frostbringer is what I offhand when I want a pinch more dps but don’t NEED the extra threat.

[Troxx]

I misread the list. You have infestation above silken whip but still below SSoY.

WESS is quite a bit stronger than FB and way way above a lot of the other weapons to include ykesha proc weapons, silken whip, sarnak battlehammer, and quite a few of the raid weapons.

[Cerate]

Here's what I've parsed so far, all post-Chardok. I'll upload logs if yall want.
Would love to get more help with the rest.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GtnvlSUHt8vMx0Ulozx2NyCI6wh3pwNIZjaaYevGdW8/edit?usp=sharing

[Pint]

What happened to being a hybrid, warriors are halfwits

[Legidias]

Why do warrior weapons hate tables though?

[Troxx]

Why do warrior weapons hate tables though?

If accurate it would be a hugely useful tool. Really it just boils down to having accurate proc values and unfortunately this will always be guess work and rely extremely heavily on anecdotes which are inherently unreliable

What I can say (anecdotally but the observation has consistently held true) is that heavy poison and disease counter procs are wickedly strong. Standard stun procs, slow, and debuff procs are medium tier. Snare is decent but low-medium. Lifetaps compared to straight up DD are superior but below all previously mentioned. Procs with combinations seem to behave as if they factor in each component separately.

I have no experience with SoD anarchy proc (either personally or witnessed in action) but there are so few on the server it doesn’t matter.

Red epic makes for decent threat but it’s below infestation, WESS, willsapper, trident, and a few of the VP weapons for raw hate. The sum total for red epic (stats/resists) makes it a solidly good weapon worth using. For threat i’d put it in the general ballpark of Frostbringer.

We’ll never know precisely unless p99 devs give us the raw data.

[Phenyo]

Best warrior threat weapon is midnight mallet

[Troxx]

Yep and at ~700p recharge it’s SuPeR cheap to use (~140 per click). It’s also a lot less effective after the most recent patch. If it enables a boss fight to go smoothly you can argue that it’s cost effective.

The majority of threat produced still comes from white damage potential and procs; even on relatively short fights where a full 5 charge mallet is used.

[Goodest]

By saying he is wrong, it's your opinion. Yet he States facts he will be adding more data to it very soon epics he has SOD logs but the parse/logs are still being sorted.

That I have seen red sword is above all else. In all trails that we have tried.

[Cerate]

Swage let me borrow his SOD in a HoT raid awhile back, but since I wasn't trying to isolate a proc's hate at the time, it would be difficult to be sure of anything from those logs.

If anyone pulled aggro off of me, I would still have to wonder if they weren't also overcoming the hate from a Taunt, or if they had some proc or skill of their own I didn't catch, or if they walked in or out of melee range, etc. etc.

For now, I just assume Anarchy is 788 because I've parsed Ykesha to be about 575 and they're both 0.0 second stuns + DD.

Ykesha (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ykesha) = 575 Hate - 75 DD = 500 hate for 0.0 sec. stun

500 + 288 DD = 788 Anarchy (https://wiki.project1999.com/Anarchy) hate.

I've also heard some talk of SOD proccing at a higher rate than the standard twice per minute, which is something I haven't considered yet but I should.

Trident was another one I don't have yet. Really no idea on that one because it's a unique slow, so that's a guess. Would love to parse that some time when I find someone with a Trident who's bored enough.

[Troxx]

By saying he is wrong, it's your opinion. Yet he States facts he will be adding more data to it very soon epics he has SOD logs but the parse/logs are still being sorted.

That I have seen red sword is above all else. In all trails that we have tried.

I'm not trying to be confrontational when I say this but let me be clear: he is not stating 'facts'. Melee threat is fairly easy to calculate so the discrepancy is with the procs. Some of the 'facts' seem to be simply ripped from the wiki.

Ykesha on his spreadsheet is the most blatant, which he quotes at 775 hate. Why 775? Because this page is being used as 'fact':

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ykesha

For now, I just assume Anarchy is 788 because I've parsed Ykesha to be about 575 and they're both 0.0 second stuns + DD.

Ykesha = 575 Hate - 75 DD = 500 hate for 0.0 sec. stun

500 + 288 DD = 788 Anarchy hate.

That has been my experience too. Ykesha as a stun/dd is medium strength for aggro, not the 2nd strongest proc in the game. If the 'facts' in the spreadsheet were true ... SSoYs despite being several expansions old and having a terrible ratio would still be amongst the strongest aggro weapons in the game. They are not.

Another wtf moment can be had comparing the quoted number for ykesha compared to another stun/dd proc listed in the 2h section.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Judgment_of_Ice

This is proc per the wiki is 1sec stun with a 125DD yet it is quoted at 525 hate whereas ykesha, a 0.0 second stun 75dd is supposed to be 775 hate? Why 775 hate? Because the wiki says so ...

Another is comparing trident of the deep seas; a slow proc. Why is it 750 aggro and willsapper is only 400? Because of the tiny 20/tick dot? The majority of the threat comes from the slow which has been conservatively estimated historically to be 450-500ish hate. Proc for proc most slow weapons are in the ballpark threat range of Frostbringer's proc.

The proc values on the spreadsheet don't make sense. They aren't facts. Prior to the last patch (i'm not as confident after the patch) one poison counter has generally been held to be worth somewhere around 300 hate. This puts infestation at 900 threat per proc plus some nominal extra from the dd and DOT. This anecdotal 'fact' held water as poison counter procs have been noticed time and time again to be noticably stronger than a straight stun. This observational 'fact' also explains why WESS (terrible ratio) does so exceptionally well at ripping aggro and effectively locking your target on you after its first proc. With 4 poison counters, blind, and a debuff it has a proc that on paper is as second-to-none as anecdotal experience reflects it should be. The poison/disease counters on the now out-dated VP weapons is what keeps them so incredibly competitive and superior to the raid level Velious weapons that don't have an innate aggro proc.

As for SoD ... well that weapon dominates because it pairs a strong proc with an insanely good ratio. The ratio is just that good.

None of this is facts. We don't have the raw data on any proc or cast spell; we can simply make educated estimates. The spreadsheet has huge potential but at the moment it is really inaccurate. Many weapons have proc threat values way over-estimated and a lot of the powerhouse aggro weapons have their proc threats under-estimated.

:D

[Solist]

The procs are all 400 (if they were previously over 400), plus the damage component. So everything you're dribbling is wrong. Everything you think you know since last patch, is just wrong. Some examples:

SoD is now 688. Flat, simple. It's now by far the best aggro proc in the game for a warrior. It used to be pretty meh at 800ish.

Feverblade used to be 1800+ hate per proc, now it's 510.
WESS used to be 2300 hate per proc. Now it's 400.

Red epic used to be comparatively shit at 600 hate/proc, but everything else came down so it's good, really good now.

Willsapper used to be tragically shithouse, now it's comparitively tip top.

Howling cutlass used to be pretty meh and now it's quite baller.

And again a lot of the orders of whats good will change next patch again with 2h damage bonus changes. Reality is the 2h warrior epic, and the dain 2h Frostreaver will be the things to use in all but when you need highest hp/ac (red epic and whitestone or red epic and jaleans). Will be nice to simplify it all.

Ignoring procs entirely is also stupid and retarded. It's simple math and simple spreadsheets to compare weapons, as all proc rates are normalised, damage models easy to calculate, and proc values all known exactly for hate. So you can pretty easily average out proc hate per second and melee hate per second at varying levels to get accurate listings. Whatever you're writing in that jibberish sheet you linked is pretty wrong however.

[DMN]

How are you guys getting these numbers?

[Troxx]

I need to spend more time on my warrior following the patch (mostly have been playing alts when not at a raid).

It is still not clear whether or not procs with multiple effects/counters factor each in separately of if it's a 'per proc' lock in. If it were 400 flat then the 'spell cast' for the sum total should cap at 400 meaning the extra DD is meaningless in a stun/dd combo - but that doesn't seem to be the case. If stun + DD are counted separately and stack additively then the aggro generating components of the poison/disease counter may likewise still stack additively. For something like WESS that has 3 separate components (one component having 4 potentially separate counters); is each component capped at 400 or is it 400 sum total? So yeah, if the direct damage is to be factored in separately as an additional perk; then weapons that have multiple components to the cast should follow the same rule.

Anecdotes being like assholes (we all have them and they all smell like shit); this is all conjecture. Having said that, following the patch I have not noticed a massive drop-off on my threat generation compared to prior to the patch. If it's ALL capped strictly at 400 I should have seen a fairly big drop.

Point is we do not absolutely know other than that the most recent patch shook everything up in a big way.

Ironically the last patch was supposed to only target people casting spells (ie mallet clicks) their class cannot cast. Whether it was intended to affect procs ... maybe or maybe not. The real collateral damage is that for people actually casting spells from their spellbook ... they got hit too. Playing my paladin the drop off in aggro per cast of spells from my spellbook (not intended to be affected) was REALLY noticable. It now takes 2-3x casts of blind to equal relative threat blind used to generate. Stun is similarly affected.

For warriors this is a potential perk as it also means slows/tashes/etc that used to generate tons of competing threat are now likely capped at the same 400 threat per cast.

[Cerate]

Troxx, you're right. I did something completely stupid, the numbers aren't even what I parsed. I can't even figure out what or how I copied. Thanks for your attention.

[Pint]

How are you guys getting these numbers?

They're making them up

[Sonderbeast]

My question is: Why do warriors hate tables so much in the first place?

[aaezil]

Epic seems better willsapper seems worse. Wonder what class that guy who said sapper is better now plays?

[Troxx]

They're making them up

For now? Yeah we pretty much are. Prior to the patch this stuff was pretty well understood in a more generalized sense.

Poison counter ~300 threat per counter
Disease counter about the same per counter
Stun around 450-500
Blind about the same
Snare ~250-300 threat
DD = amount of nuke was the threat
Lifetap threat = double the DD component
Debuff around 400-450
Red Epic was known
DoT = about 1:1 for the sum total the dot would do? (this is the only one not understood)

Once you knew the basic general rule you could pretty easily estimate the threat of a proc by looking at the spell itself and breaking it down.

[elwing]

Aren't hate limited to 400 on any non-class spells?

[aaezil]

Aren't hate limited to 400 on any non-class spells?

Pretty sure thats only the case for non damage procs

[DMN]

I remember back in kunark that tash stcks were really popular with raid warriors despite their bad ratio Maybe it was just in the offhand tho? Which makes me then wonder the simplicity of the hate estimations. Then again it might have just been done to make it easier facilitate the landing of mal and slow without having to have enchanters instagibbed tashing.

[Danth]

Pretty sure thats only the case for non damage procs

That was apparently the intent, at least according to the notes, but anyone who can cast a spell can tell you that spellthreat has has been changed across the board. Perhaps a glitch, perhaps not, but whatever the case the players need to deal with it.

Danth

[mizzbiscuits]

“Haynar: Fixed a bug in adding hate from spells, that was introduced with the out of class spell hate cap. Spells with a specific hate adder, were losing their hate from the spell effects.”

...from just reading this without testing, sounds like a benefit for warriors? I’ve noticed even at tanking UR & MM that effects aren’t very snappy.

[ApexNews]

numbers seem off but the cause is noble. if you have a reproducible test to gather data i would be willing to help. i have many high end pixels to test with.

[Danth]

On my Shadow Knight I don't feel any difference since pre-patch, aggro's still more squirrely than it was before the present patch cycle, but still manageable.

Danth

[Cerate]

numbers seem off but the cause is noble. if you have a reproducible test to gather data i would be willing to help. i have many high end pixels to test with.

I'd love your help. The test I used for the weapons I have so far is generally described in sakuragi's warrior guide. (https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide)

Gist of it is: Tester with the proc weapon melees until he gets one proc then turns off attack. The Control wields something that doesn't proc and melees the NPC until it turns to face him, then he turns off attack. Then you parse the logs, subtract the white hate of the Tester from the Control, and the difference is the hate generated by the proc, plus a margin of error for the rest of the hate of a single swing, and whatever threshhold it is for turning an NPC (which is pretty small on p99).

[DMN]

I'd love your help. The test I used for the weapons I have so far is generally described in sakuragi's warrior guide. (https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide)

Gist of it is: Tester with the proc weapon melees until he gets one proc then turns off attack. The Control wields something that doesn't proc and melees the NPC until it turns to face him, then he turns off attack. Then you parse the logs, subtract the white hate of the Tester from the Control, and the difference is the hate generated by the proc, plus a margin of error for the rest of the hate of a single swing, and whatever threshhold it is for turning an NPC (which is pretty small on p99).

I'd try to do it on relatively low level things, tho, as missed swings still build aggro and could prove to be a significant confounding variable if you aren't hitting with almost every attack.

[Cerate]

I'd try to do it on relatively low level things, tho, as missed swings still build aggro and could prove to be a significant confounding variable if you aren't hitting with almost every attack.

Very true. I ignore the damage done entirely and multiply the swings (hit or miss) by (DMG + Bonus) as sakuragi laid out. The bonus is 11 on one-handed mainhand weapons for all 60 warriors. The formula for the 2H bonus I've used is:

B = ((LVL-25)/2)+(DLY-31)/3

I recommend Sentry Enots in Skyshrine. He has a lot of HP to mess with, hits for negligible damage and is close to a zone line if you want to reset him for multiple weapons.

[Dillusional]

That chart OP posted has many mistakes =/ .... after the chardok patch non-damage component of procs now scales up to a maximum of 400...

Some of my math below is probably going to be a little off because of inaccuracies in the wiki, I've noticed that when trident of the deep sea procs, at least sometimes the last 6 ticks will be for 13 instead of 20. (I'm not sure how partial resists work on some DoT effects) I should really login and test it now since my math below based on what the wiki says shows Trident to be by far the best agroe weapon primary now, ahead of even SoD... so trident may be overrated in my chart (but probably still the best) and if anything else doesn't match what is on the wiki it will be wrong too.... Anyway these numbers assume a level 60 warrior with 255dex and facing a raid boss (assume that non-damage component agroe scales based on targets HP so it will always be 400)

Primary slot agroe weapons:

Infestation ((60/1.8) * (9 + 11)) + 562 * 2 = 1790.67 hate per minute on average

Blade of Strategy ((60/2.4) * (14 + 11)) + 600 * 2 = 1825 hate per minute on average

Willsapper ((60/2) * (13 + 11)) + 400 * 2 = 1520 hate per minute on average

Sword of the Shissar ((60/2.3) * (14 + 11)) + 619 * 2 = 1890.17 hate per minute on average

Trident of the Deep Sea ((60/2.2) * (14 + 11)) + 900 * 2 = 2481.82 hate per minute on average

Scepter of Destruction ((60/1.8) * (12 + 11)) + 688 * 2 = 2142.67 hate per minute on average

Kreizenn’s Flame ((60/1.7) * (12 + 11)) + 100 *2 = 1011.76 hate per minute on average

Swift Blade of Zek ((60/1.8) * (11 + 11)) = 733.33 hate per minute absolute

Blade of Carnage ((60/2.3) * (15 + 11)) = 678.26 hate per minute absolute


Secondary Agroe Weapons

Blade of Strategy (60/2.4) * 14 + 600 = 950 hate per minute on average (not secondary usable yet!)

Blade of Tactics (60/2.4) * 14 + ?? = 350+??

Sword of the Shissar (60/2.3) * 14 + 619 = 984.22 hate per minute on average

Blade of Carnage (60/2.3) * 15 = 391.3 hate per minute absolute heh

Trident of the Deep Sea (60/2.2) * 14 + 900 = 1281.82 hate per minute on average

Scepter of Destruction (60/1.8) * 12 + 688 = 1088 hate per minute on average

Kreizen’s Flame (60/1.7)*12 + 100 = 523.53

Infestation (60/1.8) * 9 + 562 = 862 hate per minute on average

[Dillusional]

For slow, stun, poison counters just count each of those as 400 agroe. Then add the total damage a dot or dd will do to that. A warrior with 255dex will proc twice a minute on average. So multiply the proc value by 2. The agroe generated by a warrior swinging with the primary hand will be: (swings per minute) * (weapon damage + damage bonus). At level 60 the damage bonus is 11. That is how you calculate the agroe generated by a weapon per minute if you want to build your chart correctly @OP. At least that's what i did above and how I believe an accurate chart would be calculated now.

[Cerate]

@Dillusional You're not considering haste, which would improve the performance of white hate generation. Consider this formula for swings per minute, following from the wiki's haste guide (https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide#General_Rules):

60/((DLY/10)/(1+Haste)) = swings per minute

Haste is expressed as a decimel, so 100% haste would be 1.00 here. You can use 0.21 if you want to figure it unbuffed with, say, an FBSS, but I don't think that's the situation for most warriors, most of the time, in raids.

Into the whole formula for total hate per minute with 100% haste:

60/((DLY/10)/(1+Haste)) * (DMG + Bonus) + (Proc Hate) * 2 (rate @255 Dex) = Total Hate per minute.

As for DoTs, I'm simply adding on 10 ticks, considering continuous uptime but that's really liberal and probably not realistic.

[Dillusional]

@Dillusional You're not considering haste, which would improve the performance of white hate generation. Consider this formula for swings per minute, following from the wiki's haste guide (https://wiki.project1999.com/Haste_Guide#General_Rules):

60/((DLY/10)/(1+Haste)) = swings per minute

Haste is expressed as a decimel, so 100% haste would be 1.00 here. You can use 0.21 if you want to figure it unbuffed with, say, an FBSS, but I don't think that's the situation for most warriors, most of the time, in raids.

Into the whole formula for total hate per minute with 100% haste:

60/((DLY/10)/(1+Haste)) * (DMG + Bonus) + (Proc Hate) * 2 (rate @255 Dex) = Total Hate per minute.

As for DoTs, I'm simply adding on 10 ticks, considering continuous uptime but that's really liberal and probably not realistic.


Sure, factoring haste into the formula is a good thing. I'm glad you were able to put together the formula out of my rambling post. I'd like to point out though, that many warriors tank with 99% haste, not 100%. The best worn haste items are 41% and most people ask enchanters for the 42minute spell Visions of Grandeur that gives 58% haste 20 attack and 25dex.....In fact, in my years of raiding as an enchanter, I've only ever had one warrior consistently ask for a different haste spell when he didn't need to use null aura.

I don't know what you meant by "adding 10 ticks." What I was doing was saying that you get all of the hate from a DoT effect up front. 1 hate per damage. Not as the ticks occur. The assumption was you get this whether there is a resist or not. The durations and damage per tick data was taken from the wiki even though I have all those dot weapons in game =/ (yeah, lazy right).

Weapons I am unsure about how to calculate: Feverblade and Wess. Do each of the non-damage components of Wess count separately (they might). I have a Feverblade but haven't tested how the dot or "heal" actually works here.

[Cerate]

Sure, 99% haste would be more accurate.

DoTs deal aggro both up-front and on ticks. It's not very apparent for warriors because most DoT ticks we get are quite small, but it's obvious for shamans, necros and druids. NPCs turn on ticks. I've added 10 ticks of damage to represent one minute of DoT damage with the initial proc hate. As I said, if it's not continuously maintained (resists or unlucky with procs) then that's going to overestimate the value. Ticks also do less damage when the NPC is moving, so that's a factor, too. Thankfully, even the upper bound for tick hate is relatively small.

I'm also not sure about Feverblade ticks yet. When I parsed it, I had my control wait until I got the worn off message, then told him to start swinging. So the Feverblade proc plus any hidden ticks, if they generate hate or not, added up to about 550. I'm not sure what all the ticks are even supposed to add up to, from the description it sounds like it starts at 22 then the ticks go down in damage from there, like shaman epic in reverse? So that's just kind of a mess.

WESS parses for me to about 400-450, probably getting capped at 400 as per the new post-chardok cap for non-damaging procs. I don't have access to a bio orb or ragefire BP, but that might be a way to try to isolate a blind's hate for warriors, if it's less than that cap.

[baakss]

Unless they changed it from EQEmu, there should be no difference between 99% haste and 100% haste ever.

Haste rounds down to the nearest whole number because of integer math.

[Dillusional]

Unless they changed it from EQEmu, there should be no difference between 99% haste and 100% haste ever.

Haste rounds down to the nearest whole number because of integer math.

I don't believe this to be the case.

I just looked at the emu source and it seems to work like this....

attackSpeedInMillisecond = (originalDelayInMilliseconds / hasteMod)

speed and delay are both integers but hasteMod was a floating point (number with a decimal point)


if you have 99% haste, your hasteMod value would be 1.99 if you have 100% haste, your haste mod would be 2.0

So let's say you have a 35 delay weapon with 100% haste

3500 / 2 = 1750 ....so you will attack once every 1.75 seconds

and let's say you have 99% haste

3500 / 1.99 = 1758.79.... rounded down to 1758 ....

you are taking 8 fewer milliseconds between swings with 100% haste versus 99% haste on a 35 delay weapon. The server will round down to the nearest millisecond because of the Integer math but you'll still have an 8 millisecond difference. I'm pretty sure the attack timer can handle 8 milliseconds of precision and there will be a tangible difference.

[Dillusional]

I guess it is possible that the timer implementation doesn't have 8milliseconds of precision but that would be the reason the haste would be negligible rather than integer math. Because the server does calculate the attack delay down to the millisecond.

[baakss]

You're absolutely right. I missed the multiplication of delay by 100 back when I had originally looked at this, which matters tremendously because the cast to int is now with milliseconds instead of seconds.

Thank you for correcting me!

[baakss]

Well, that's possible too, but you were still correct on how that function works.

[Baugi]

I've noticed that when trident of the deep sea procs, at least sometimes the last 6 ticks will be for 13 instead of 20. (I'm not sure how partial resists work on some DoT effects)

There's no resist check for on-tick DoT damage. It's reduced if the target is moving and not fleeing.

Then add the total damage a dot or dd will do to that.

Have you tested the assumption that on-tick dot damage does anything? My understanding of old material is that dot proc aggro was based on counters + initial dd.

[Cerate]

Have you tested the assumption that on-tick dot damage does anything? My understanding of old material is that dot proc aggro was based on counters + initial dd.

I parsed the total hate of proc + all ticks of Thunder Runed Great Sword to be 600-675 hate. All of the ticks added up to 625 damage, and the proc has no initial DD or counters listed.

By the same method, Infestation parsed 629-713 total proc hate. The ticks add up to 150 damage, and the DD is 12, leaving 467-551 for the 3 poison counters.

DoT proc aggro is apparently all of the above: ticks, counters, and DDs.

[Danth]

Have you tested the assumption that on-tick dot damage does anything? My understanding of old material is that dot proc aggro was based on counters + initial dd.

if you want to scan through old forum posts, you can find a patch some years ago where the developers explicitly mentioned Disease Cloud being modified to add hate over time rather than front-loading everything. The large number of times I've seen monsters flip to the wife's shaman after a dot-tick if I'm being lazy on aggro confirms that behavior for other damage over time spells.

Danth

[Dolalin]

One last consideration that's missing here is the fact that proc hate scales based on mob HP. Raid mobs have tons of HP.

If I get a stun proc (400 aggro) on a mob with 32k HP, it generates more than 400 aggro. It's (400 * C * 32,000), where C is some constant scaling factor.

In that light, for mobs with very high HP, you can effectively discount aggro from the direct damage component of procs I would think, as I believe it is added on separately and does not scale up with mob hp.

That would change how these various weapons rank in terms of one another, to the point where for mobs with high HP, the effectiveness of a weapon's hate generation takes this order of precedence:

1. Scaling proc hate (400 * C * HP)
2. White damage hate
3. DD / recurring DoT hate

[Legidias]

One last consideration that's missing here is the fact that proc hate scales based on mob HP.

[Citation needed]

[Dolalin]

[Citation needed]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317220&page=3

This is what Haynar is working from. If it's not live already (I'm pretty sure it is) it will be in one of the next few patches:

http://imgur.com/GNnb9ai.jpg

I was a little off actually.

Hate = 1/15 * mob HP, min=25 max=1200

[Cerate]

If you scroll down on your source's source (http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819) a bit, you'll find another section which distinguishes procs from spells as having a different cap of 400. From that source:

"This affects not just stuns, but also slows and snares and presumably any of the effects with hate that scales with NPC hitpoints. The scaling spell hate portion of a proc is capped at 400-- any damage component will stack. I used a swarmcaller on a 3600 hp NPC and the proc did ~236 hate. The proc on a 11.5k hp NPC did 400 hate."

I used Sentry Enots to parse hate, as he has 18k HP, this would imply a 18k/15=1200 cap from the spell hate method. WESS, Willsapper, Nev's Horn, Tserrina's Whip, Silken Whip of Ensnaring, Glaive of Marltek and Trochilic's Skean all parsed around 400-450. I strongly suspect the cap for most non-damaging components is 400.

Two weapons confound that, Ykesha (730-814) and Kunzar Kujuch (626-710), which parse higher for some reason. Still trying to figure out why, maybe I pushed them out of melee range or something.

[Baugi]

The large number of times I've seen monsters flip to the wife's shaman after a dot-tick if I'm being lazy on aggro confirms that behavior for other damage over time spells.

Danth

I was distinguishing casted DoT hate from procced DoT hate which seems relevant given the wording of the patch notes, but a Thunder Runed Great Sword parse is fairly convincing.

[Dolalin]

If you scroll down on your source's source (http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819) a bit, you'll find another section which distinguishes procs from spells as having a different cap of 400.

And right you are. I was wrong. Proc hate is capped at 400 always.

Forget what I said. :D

[mycoolrausch]

That chart OP posted has many mistakes =/ .... after the chardok patch non-damage component of procs now scales up to a maximum of 400...

Some of my math below is probably going to be a little off because of inaccuracies in the wiki, I've noticed that when trident of the deep sea procs, at least sometimes the last 6 ticks will be for 13 instead of 20. (I'm not sure how partial resists work on some DoT effects) I should really login and test it now since my math below based on what the wiki says shows Trident to be by far the best agroe weapon primary now, ahead of even SoD... so trident may be overrated in my chart (but probably still the best) and if anything else doesn't match what is on the wiki it will be wrong too.... Anyway these numbers assume a level 60 warrior with 255dex and facing a raid boss (assume that non-damage component agroe scales based on targets HP so it will always be 400)

Primary slot agroe weapons:

Infestation ((60/1.8) * (9 + 11)) + 562 * 2 = 1790.67 hate per minute on average

Blade of Strategy ((60/2.4) * (14 + 11)) + 600 * 2 = 1825 hate per minute on average

Willsapper ((60/2) * (13 + 11)) + 400 * 2 = 1520 hate per minute on average

Sword of the Shissar ((60/2.3) * (14 + 11)) + 619 * 2 = 1890.17 hate per minute on average

Trident of the Deep Sea ((60/2.2) * (14 + 11)) + 900 * 2 = 2481.82 hate per minute on average

Scepter of Destruction ((60/1.8) * (12 + 11)) + 688 * 2 = 2142.67 hate per minute on average

Kreizenn’s Flame ((60/1.7) * (12 + 11)) + 100 *2 = 1011.76 hate per minute on average

Swift Blade of Zek ((60/1.8) * (11 + 11)) = 733.33 hate per minute absolute

Blade of Carnage ((60/2.3) * (15 + 11)) = 678.26 hate per minute absolute


Secondary Agroe Weapons

Blade of Strategy (60/2.4) * 14 + 600 = 950 hate per minute on average (not secondary usable yet!)

Blade of Tactics (60/2.4) * 14 + ?? = 350+??

Sword of the Shissar (60/2.3) * 14 + 619 = 984.22 hate per minute on average

Blade of Carnage (60/2.3) * 15 = 391.3 hate per minute absolute heh

Trident of the Deep Sea (60/2.2) * 14 + 900 = 1281.82 hate per minute on average

Scepter of Destruction (60/1.8) * 12 + 688 = 1088 hate per minute on average

Kreizen’s Flame (60/1.7)*12 + 100 = 523.53

Infestation (60/1.8) * 9 + 562 = 862 hate per minute on average

Does this change if a proc is resisted? I know hate is calculated before resist but some of these procs are ticking dots, what about that hate?

[Troxx]

Those proc values quoted aren’t accurate. To answer your question, though, the hate value should be the same regardless of whether it resists or lands.

[Dillusional]

Those proc values quoted aren’t accurate. To answer your question, though, the hate value should be the same regardless of whether it resists or lands.

What made them inaccurate, do the non-damage components of those procs not scale to 400 hate against velious raid mobs (NPC's with arbitrarily large amounts of hp)? or do you not get the damage from a DoT as 1 hate per damage up front when you proc? Someone pointed out that i didn't include 99% haste in the calculations, that would've been good.

[Dillusional]

Primary hand at level 60 with Visions of Grandeur

Swift Blade of Zek

1800 / 1.99 = 904.523.. server rounds this down to 904

(60/.904) * (11 + 11) = 1460.177 hate per minute

Blade of Carnage

2300 / 1.99 = 1155

(60/1.155) * (15 + 11) = 1350.649 hate per minute

[Dillusional]

Does this change if a proc is resisted? I know hate is calculated before resist but some of these procs are ticking dots, what about that hate?

The way i calculated hate for the procs with DoTs was that I assumed the non-damage component scaled to 400 and then i gave you all the hate for a DoT up front. So if Trident was supposed to do 25 damage per tick for 20 ticks. You got 400 for the slow component and 500 for the dot up front. I also assume you got the same hate if it was a resist or not. I never looked at the emu source to verify that was how DoT hate is calculated. if someone says otherwise, now is the time to correct me. Because if that isn't how it works, weapons with DoTs are much weaker than I was thinking they were. I should go look at the emu source heh.

[Troxx]

What made them inaccurate, do the non-damage components of those procs not scale to 400 hate against velious raid mobs (NPC's with arbitrarily large amounts of hp)? or do you not get the damage from a DoT as 1 hate per damage up front when you proc? Someone pointed out that i didn't include 99% haste in the calculations, that would've been good.

Trident of the deep sea 900 threat?

[Dillusional]

Trident of the deep sea 900 threat?

I just logged in and verified that trident of the deep sea proc lasts for 2 and a half minutes ( got 26 ticks out of it ) for a maximum damage of 20 per tick. Against a 60 cleric it was usually doing 13 per tick but against the split paw commander in black burrow it was doing the full 20 per tick heh.

So if you do get all the hate for DoT damage up front and it's always for the full amount, it would be 400 + (~25 * 20) or 900 hate per proc yeah, gotta go over to emu soruce and verify that's what is going on.

[mycoolrausch]

Does anyone have experience with resisted pure damage dots and no extra debuffs? They generate any hate?

[Dillusional]

Does anyone have experience with resisted pure damage dots and no extra debuffs? They generate any hate?

What dot are you referring to that doesn’t have poison counters, disease counters or some other form of debuff?

[mycoolrausch]

The dot component of Trident has no other debuffs, except the slow, so if the proc is resisted I assume you would only get the hate from the slow (which is capped) unless the damage the dot would have done is counted in the resist as hate.

Some classes cast pure dots, necros have a couple, shammy epic is pure dmg. So I was curious if anyone that cast those dots has experience with their hate on resists.

[Jimjam]

On live you'd get a significant percentage of the unresisted aggro on a resist. No idea what that % was or how it works here. Nor even what period on live that was.

Hope this helps.

[mycoolrausch]

So based on some limited testing I just did resisted pure dmg dots dont generate crap for hate, maybe the equivalent of the first tick as hate. Let me know if anyone has better knowledge.

This would mean on raid bosses that resist (I assume most) the Trident is no better than Willsapper (perhaps slightly worse since ratio isnt as good).

[Dillusional]

So based on some limited testing I just did resisted pure dmg dots dont generate crap for hate, maybe the equivalent of the first tick as hate. Let me know if anyone has better knowledge.

This would mean on raid bosses that resist (I assume most) the Trident is no better than Willsapper (perhaps slightly worse since ratio isnt as good).

One big difference between trident and willsapper is that raid bosses don't always resist trident. Its cold-based slow actually lands some of the time against otherwise unslowable dragons like Lord Vyemm.

Shaman epic and splurt were good examples of a pure dmg DoT but what warrior weapon has a DoT effect like that? Poison Counters and Disease counters still count as non-damage component aggro. As far as not getting aggro for a resisted proc, what is your testing method?

Not getting aggro for damage component of a resisted spell is something that I do need to look into for sure and verify one way or the other. Before the cap patch, the non-damage components of the spell were worth so much aggro compared to the damage components, never bothered to consider resist versus non-resist.

[elwing]

For counter based dot, I can at least guarantee that agro is generated on resist too, even if the spell can't land due, for example, belly casters... Shadowknight's disease cloud agro just fine regardless of the resists

[Bhopal]

I don't know anything about the accuracy of the figures, but I wish you would arrange them in order of total threat instead of order of white threat.

[BarBal]

Shaman epic and splurt were good examples of a pure dmg DoT but what warrior weapon has a DoT effect like that?

Blood Fire (http://wiki.project1999.com/Blood_Fire)

Zealot's Incarnadine Sword (http://wiki.project1999.com/Zealot%27s_Incarnadine_Sword)