Necro lull -- this can't be classic.

[DMN]

I'm getting somewhere around 35% critical lull resist rate and about 50% general resist rate. Did someone forget to move the decimal place over one digit?

[Baylan295]

I'm getting somewhere around 35% critical lull resist rate and about 50% general resist rate. Did someone forget to move the decimal place over one digit?

Mob level, MR, your level all matter.

As an enc with 255 MR, I had something like 50 consecutive resists trying to calm a mob yesterday. Sometimes it happens. We need more info to determine if there is a bug.

[DMN]

Mob level, MR, your level all matter.

As an enc with 255 MR, I had something like 50 consecutive resists trying to calm a mob yesterday. Sometimes it happens. We need more info to determine if there is a bug.


Blues that are nearly green to me. Their MR cant be good because roots and charms stick exceptionally well.

[Baylan295]

Blues that are nearly green to me. Their MR cant be good because roots and charms stick exceptionally well.

Still need a lot more data. What’s the sample size?

Yesterday’s run for me was very unusual. Usually I’m able to calm the same mob (literally the SAME mob) within 5-10 attempts. I literally burned 50-60% of my mana bar calming yesterday. Didn’t strike me anything but some bad RNG.

[DMN]

I'm calling bullshit. I've been running with an enchanter of the same level for 15-20 hours with constantly using lulls and not once has there been a crit fail for him. There is something clearly fucked up here.

[Baylan295]

I'm calling bullshit. I've been running with an enchanter of the same level for 15-20 hours with constantly using lulls and not once has there been a crit fail for him. There is something clearly fucked up here.

Enchanters have an extra check on crit fails based on Charisma, so isn’t an apt comparison. And maybe it’s bad RNG. Just because the game is mean doesn’t mean something is fucked up.

[DMN]

Enchanters have an extra check on crit fails based on Charisma, so isn’t an apt comparison. And maybe it’s bad RNG. Just because the game is mean doesn’t mean something is fucked up.

It's not classic. Cirit fails should be around 5% and general fails about 15% on lowish blues..

[Jack N]

Critical resists on lull scale with charisma - not sure but think this applies to necros as well.

[Baylan295]

It's not classic. Cirit fails should be around 5% and general fails about 15% on lowish blues..

Please provide evidence to support your point that it isn’t classic and then post it in then bug forums. In the meantime, your experience is similar to mine - so filed under “working as intended.”

[DMN]

Please provide evidence to support your point that it isn’t classic and then post it in then bug forums. In the meantime, your experience is similar to mine - so filed under “working as intended.”

Where exactly did they get the current resist rates? And what planet did the charisma component of an enchanter spell become a benefit instead of a liability?

[Baylan295]

Where exactly did they get the current resist rates? And what planet did the charisma component of an enchanter spell become a benefit instead of a liability?

You’d have to ask the devs.

And if it’s an extra save check, it can’t be anything other than a benefit because it provides an extra opportunity to save a failure (essentially the crit resist chance is reduced...)

[DMN]

You’d have to ask the devs.

And if it’s an extra save check, it can’t be anything other than a benefit because it provides an extra opportunity to save a failure (essentially the crit resist chance is reduced...)

Charisma component was a liability in classic, not a benefit. If you had extremely high charsma, you'd be on equal footing with any-old-necro in charming/lulling undead.

[Baylan295]

Charisma component was a liability in classic, not a benefit. If you had extremely high charsma, you'd be on equal footing with any-old-necro in charming/lulling undead.

I’ve never heard this before - so provide some evidence and you might get this changed.

[DMN]

I’ve never heard this before - so provide some evidence and you might get this changed.


You never heard of it because you never played classic.

[Baylan295]

You never heard of it because you never played classic.

Unclassic but current evidence supports that charisma is an extra save chance.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/importance-of-charisma.220085/

[DMN]

"Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It�s unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic. "

This means the charisma check is often not a benefit but a penalty which punishes certain classes more than others. Said in another way, a 100 charisma necro is better at holding charm than a 100 charisma enchanter.

[Baylan295]

"Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It�s unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic. "

This means the charisma check is often not a benefit but a penalty which punishes certain classes more than others. Said in another way, a 100 charisma necro is better at holding charm than a 100 charisma enchanter.

That doesn’t at all say that it’s a penalty. It says that the calculation is different for different classes, and you completely disregarded all the evidence that says it’s another save, which means it can only be a benefit to that particular class.

AFAIK (because I don’t have a necro), on p99 there is no charisma check for necros and enchanters have that check, so I would expect better results for an enchanter than a necro given similar conditions because there is an additional chance to save calm.

[DMN]

That doesn’t at all say that it’s a penalty. It says that the calculation is different for different classes, and you completely disregarded all the evidence that says it’s another save, which means it can only be a benefit to that particular class.

AFAIK (because I don’t have a necro), on p99 there is no charisma check for necros and enchanters have that check, so I would expect better results for an enchanter than a necro given similar conditions because there is an additional chance to save calm.

So if I require black people to pay twice as much in taxes to not go to jail than white pieople, is that a penalty or a benefit. Let me know.

[Baylan295]

So if I require black people to pay twice as much in taxes to not go to jail than white pieople, is that a penalty or a benefit. Let me know.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[DMN]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Who the fuck is talking about nazis? My analogy was intended to show you the difference of a restive penalty versus an absolute one. But you seem a little short in the chromosomal department.

[Baylan295]

Who the fuck is talking about nazis?

The point is you made a nonsensical argument that falsely equates racial prejudice with a different formula in a game.

It’s a different formula on live that isn’t in effect here.

Post some evidence in a bug thread if you want it to change. Otherwise, enchanters have an extra save on this server that no one else gets.

[DMN]

The point is you made a nonsensical argument that falsely equates racial prejudice with a different formula in a game.

It’s a different formula on live that isn’t in effect here.

Post some evidence in a bug thread if you want it to change. Otherwise, enchanters have an extra save on this server that no one else gets.

According to the link you posted necromancers should have a save too and a much more favorable one versus enchanters. A two year old could understand this, but why can't you?

[Baylan295]

According to the link you posted necromancers should have a save too and a much more favorable one versus enchanters. A two year old could understand this, but why can't you?

The language you quoted is specific to Mez’s and charms. Sooo.

[DMN]

The language you quoted is specific to Mez’s and charms. Sooo.

So you think they just abandoned their logic when it came to lulls for "reasons"?

[Baylan295]

According to the link you posted necromancers should have a save too and a much more favorable one versus enchanters. A two year old could understand this, but why can't you?

So you think they just abandoned their logic when it came to lulls for "reasons"?

I don’t know, or care. I’m suggesting that you find evidence if you think something is u classic and want a change.

[DMN]

I don’t know, or care. I’m suggesting that you find evidence if you think something is u classic and want a change.

You just posted the evidence but are apparently too dumb to grasp it.

[Baylan295]

You just posted the evidence but are apparently too dumb to grasp it.

Too dumb to stop responding, anyway.

[DMN]

Too dumb to stop responding, anyway.

Punch drunk is the term.

[Sinadin]

60 ench and 57 necro here...necro lull is way way worse than my enchanters and was wondering myself if something is wrong with it.

[DMN]

I tested this quite a bit back in the day, mainly to prove that LOW CHARISMA didn't improve necromancer charm/mez/lulll abilities. This was an oft claimed urban legend of sorts by people back in the day but i showed it was not true, but also showed that having high charisma did not improve things noticeably either. It appeared that necromancer gained nor lost anything related to charisma. My enchanter on the other hand had clear differences in those abilities. And in order to be on equal footing with my necro the enchanter always needed to be fully geared/buff for cha. My necro could have been naked and ahad the same rates as the enchanter. My enahcnter was NEVER better at charming/lulling/mezzing undead than my necro.

Reading what GZ said in that thread, my guess is that necro's "soft" cap for charisma was extremely low, while enchanters was much, much higher.

[commongood]

Played a chanter on live from Kunark till OoW. Currently play a 58 chanter grinding towards 60 and a 60 necro.

I don't recall charisma being a penalty on live for enchanters. I also don't recognize your ratio of failures on your necromancer on p99 from my own necromancer. But yes, I would agree that my 255 enchanter get's fewer crit resists.

All anecdotal I know. I'm not sure what that link to Daybreak Forums accomplishes as I couldn't be bothered sifting through everything. Is the quote "Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It�s unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic. " from a developer?

Like others have already chimed in with: if you can find some evidence then you should post it under bug reports and if the p99 team finds that evidence backs up that it's a classic feature then you will have succeeded.

Better chance than coming to the caster subforum and being confrontational and unpleasent to people trying to give you feedback on your questions.

[DMN]

Played a chanter on live from Kunark till OoW. Currently play a 58 chanter grinding towards 60 and a 60 necro.

I don't recall charisma being a penalty on live for enchanters. I also don't recognize your ratio of failures on your necromancer on p99 from my own necromancer. But yes, I would agree that my 255 enchanter get's fewer crit resists.

All anecdotal I know. I'm not sure what that link to Daybreak Forums accomplishes as I couldn't be bothered sifting through everything. Is the quote from a developer?

Like others have already chimed in with: if you can find some evidence then you should post it under bug reports and if the p99 team finds that evidence backs up that it's a classic feature then you will have succeeded.

Better chance than coming to the caster subforum and being confrontational and unpleasent to people trying to give you feedback on your questions.

That quote is from geoffrey zatkin, not only a dev but the main guy in charge of the spell system in the classic era.

[commongood]

Thanks. So according to that quote (the link is broken btw - the link posted by the quote on the dbg forums) "The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer". That's pretty vague. It doesn't really specify the reason why an enchanter should have a higher charisma. Is it because it will benefit the enchanter more? Or is it because he will otherwise be punished?

I'm not entirely convinced either way but it would be interesting to learn more.

[DMN]

Thanks. So according to that quote (the link is broken btw - the link posted by the quote on the dbg forums) "The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer". That's pretty vague. It doesn't really specify the reason why an enchanter should have a higher charisma. Is it because it will benefit the enchanter more? Or is it because he will otherwise be punished?

I'm not entirely convinced either way but it would be interesting to learn more.

Well it suggests that an enchanter had a relative charisma penalty versus a necromancer. Alternatively that necros had a charisma bonus relative to enchanters.

[commongood]

It may suggest that but it's unclear. When he says "it means that a chanter should have a higher charisma than a necromancer" that could mean a number of things.

It could mean, as you suggest, that the chanter would have a lower chance of succesfully rolling on charm/lull/mez checks if the chanter had the same charisma as a necromancer.

But it could also mean that a chanter has much more to gain from having high charisma. As in the enchanter will benefit more from having a high charisma and therefore should have a higher charisma.

I'm not saying it's one way or the other, but just that it's a little vague to draw any hard conclusions based on that quote.

[DMN]

Maybe if your english or logic skills are extremely poor. You seemed to have missed the part where he says it would be wrong for the system to expect "masters of the undead" necros to have as much charisma as other classes.

[commongood]

Maybe if your english or logic skills are extremely poor. You seemed to have missed the part where he says it would be wrong for the system to expect "masters of the undead" necros to have as much charisma as other classes.

I don't think my logic skills (I assume you are refering to my logistical sense?) or my level of understanding of English need to be brought into question.

I also think it's a bit contrived to assume that this throw-away comment about how necros shouldn't be expected to have high charisma directly translates into a confirmation of your theory.

[DMN]

I don't think my logic skills (I assume you are refering to my logistical sense?) or my level of understanding of English need to be brought into question.

I also think it's a bit contrived to assume that this throw-away comment about how necros shouldn't be expected to have high charisma directly translates into a confirmation of your theory.

The whole point of the second sentence was to elucidate readers on the former. They didn't expect necros to have high charisma, but they did enchanters. GZ is the most important figure in EQ history for classic time period spell issues. Nothing he says should be flippantly considered a throwaway line.

[Ranlron swiftsong]

Question does cha have any effect on the charm spell for druid? Just curious now if cha has any importance to druids.

[Tecmos Deception]

Mob level, MR, your level all matter.

As an enc with 255 MR, I had something like 50 consecutive resists trying to calm a mob yesterday. Sometimes it happens. We need more info to determine if there is a bug.

Chanter and necro lull's don't work the same here. Same mob, level 60, same charisma, and a necro will get a lot more crit fails than a chanter.

[Elerial]

Contrary to popular belief, "Lull" line and "Rest the dead" line aren't the same line. One works on everything (level capped) the other only works on undead.

Rest the dead has no positive charisma check for crit fails while the Lull line does. That's why Necros/SK's aren't advised to gather cha gear.

Paladins, clerics and enchanters with high cha gear can pretty much waltz anywhere. The difficulty is ofcourse in that same order. Paladin, while they can lull, in case of a crit resist are up shit's creek, while cleric can mem blurr after a successful lull and enchanter can do it even better.

Most people use Calm in most situations thought, because it reduces the aggro radius the most out of all the spells. Lull is also lower level capped.

[Tecmos Deception]

Most people use Calm in most situations thought, because it reduces the aggro radius the most out of all the spells. Lull is also lower level capped.

This is all wrong.

Most people use calm because it is enough of an aggro radius reduction while being pretty cheap on Mana and lasting 3 minutes. Lull reduction is too small for some situations, but it's cheap and lasts a long time still (and as far as I've seen in using it, it doesn't actually have a level limit on p99, at least not compared to calm and definitely not low enough that anything you'd actually dare casting it on will be unaffected). The higher level spells (pacify, etc) have larger reductions than calm but cost a lot more Mana and have shorter durations, so they go unused.

[LazyHydras]

I will say that coming up as a necro I would literally never use lull because it seemed like the resist chance was always 50% and the crit resist chance at least 25%. I have only recently started using it at lvl60 and it seems to have much more success. . . but only because I outlevel the mobs by at least 12 or 13 levels (HS North or West mobs).

Resist rates, OVERALL, seem unusually high in P99. Trying to land snare/fear on mobs (specifically in my mid to late 20s) was always a chore and I'd have to expect numerous resists even on blue con mobs before anything would land. When you are not twinked (i.e: have a low mana pool), it really makes soloing much less efficient than you'd expect it to be despite the fact that you aren't taking any damage.

[Haynar]

OP has inspired me. I should look at how lull works ASAP!!!!

But thanks for the reminder. It may need a revamp.

H

[Tethler]

OP has inspired me. I should look at how lull works ASAP!!!!

But thanks for the reminder. It may need a revamp.

H

Good guy Haynar. My necro waits in anticipation!