Looking for staff clarification on rules about camping

[DiogenesThaDogg]

Is it allowed for a camp (for example the named orc camp in highpass aka the shiny brass idol camp) to be indefinitely occupied? Is it allowed for guild members to pass the camp off in an unbroken chain of succession? In the Play Nice Policy,

In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off.

the rules talk about a camp being held by a player, not a guild, and it doesn't seem like the rules make any provision for a camp being passed off from one person to another regardless of their affiliation.

[DMN]

This will probably alleviate some confusion:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9

So, ya, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for a decent sized guild to lock down a campable spawn/mob.

[Teppler]

Lists and hand offs can go on forever.

[Dithien]

Yeah it’s very annoying but completely allowed on P99.

[feniin]

You can continue to camp a single spawn point for as long as you want and give it to whomever you wish when you're done.

[Jimjam]

You can continue to camp a single spawn point for as long as you want and give it to whomever you wish when you're done.

I believe there was a King Tranix or Ancient Cyclops ruling that once you get the item you are camping you have to hand off the camp if someone else wants it.

[kaluppo]

The amount of effort involved with holding down a camp 24/7 strikes me as incredible. 3 am? 4 am? I found the best way to get a camp I want is show up there about 2 am CST and wait. By 4 am the camp is usually mine. Now I have only done this for things like AC camp or the sisters camp in Lfay or an epic mob for my Druid. I have never tried to camp fungi tunics or anything like that.

Remember if they die or log off then the camp is vacated and can be claimed by anyone that is around. Not saying I would wish anyone to die but if they go LD and don't come back by the next spawn pop then you would be FTE. It's all about being in the right place at the right time.

[DiogenesThaDogg]

The amount of effort involved with holding down a camp 24/7 strikes me as incredible. 3 am? 4 am? I found the best way to get a camp I want is show up there about 2 am CST and wait. By 4 am the camp is usually mine. Now I have only done this for things like AC camp or the sisters camp in Lfay or an epic mob for my Druid. I have never tried to camp fungi tunics or anything like that.

Remember if they die or log off then the camp is vacated and can be claimed by anyone that is around. Not saying I would wish anyone to die but if they go LD and don't come back by the next spawn pop then you would be FTE. It's all about being in the right place at the right time.

If the camp is held 24/7 by multiple people there is no "the right time".

[kaluppo]

If the camp is held 24/7 by multiple people there is no "the right time".

Key word there is multiple. If only one is holding the camp then there could be the right time. If multiple people are always there then yeah, you're screwed.

[TripleLegit]

If the camp is held 24/7 by multiple people there is no "the right time".

If you go LD you would have to ping someone on discord to come take the camp. If you are at the camp waiting odds are you got your shot before the rep can come. I highly highly doubt there are multiple people from one guild literally in the flesh camping the spawn waiting for the hand off.

[Senescant]

What is the camp in question? Who's holding it?

[kaluppo]

What is the camp in question? Who's holding it?

I am assuming it's this camp since this was in the original OP's post:

(for example the named orc camp in highpass aka the shiny brass idol camp)

I don't go to highpass at all so I have no idea what guild is perma-camping it.

[CityofChamps09]

This will probably alleviate some confusion:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9

So, ya, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for a decent sized guild to lock down a campable spawn/mob.

That is a name that I haven't seen in a long long time.. what happened to Derubel?

[Xaeophi]

heard he was naughty

[Hotel]

rotate idol camp imo

[aaezil]

thanks aftermath!

[Rygar]

Disable the damn use in ToV already... they did this for Ivandyr's Hoops that 'trivialized content' in VP, how are these any different?

If programming it right now is an issue, just make a GM/Dev declaration that using these in pull tactics is considered exploit and bans / suspensions will result.

[Hotel]

Disable the damn use in ToV already... they did this for Ivandyr's Hoops that 'trivialized content' in VP, how are these any different?

If programming it right now is an issue, just make a GM/Dev declaration that using these in pull tactics is considered exploit and bans / suspensions will result.

Sorry you don't like game mechanics.

[Rygar]

Sorry you don't like game mechanics.

Don't like unclassic game mechanics that exploit hate list and pathing to trivialize content (grounds for ban / suspension on live back in the day).

Ironically a 'not classic' nerf to this item strictly in ToV would provide a more classic experience (just like Ivandyr Hoop). 3-5 second casting time could also be acceptable for attempting some PoM speed runs.

Sorry you don't like classic and want easy-mode WoW EQ.

[Hotel]

Don't like unclassic game mechanics that exploit hate list and pathing to trivialize content (grounds for ban / suspension on live back in the day).

Ironically a 'not classic' nerf to this item strictly in ToV would provide a more classic experience (just like Ivandyr Hoop). 3-5 second casting time could also be acceptable for attempting some PoM speed runs.

Sorry you don't like classic and want easy-mode WoW EQ.

Wouldn't the server be so much better if you were in charge?

[Rygar]

Wouldn't the server be so much better if you were in charge?

Such petty paper thin re-direct arguments. We got ourselves a real neckbeard here folks, possible top raid guild lawyer.

[Hotel]

Such petty paper thin re-direct arguments. We got ourselves a real neckbeard here folks, possible top raid guild lawyer.

I'm way hotter than you IRL

[Wonkie]

rotate idol camp imo

[loramin]

Wouldn't the server be so much better if you were in charge?

Maybe you haven't noticed, but he kinda is. I mean, in a way Rygar is Nilbog's bitch, doing the classic research Nilbog wants done so he can write classic EQ code. But another way to look at it is that when Rygar decides what to research, he essentially defines what Nilbog codes, so in that sense Nilbog is Rygar's bitch.

Regardless of who is who's bitch though, look up at the top of the screen. See that bit of text on the left? "Classic Everquest"? We're all Rogean's and Nilbog's bitch, and the two of them (ie. the people who are in fact in charge) have made it very clear that their goal and Rygar's are more or less identical. They may not agree on all the details, but it's certainly safe to say that the people running this server want classic EQ just as much as Rygar.

[Rygar]

You're sweet, Loramin. Kiss me softly with that bristly beard. You had me at nilbog's bitch.

[RedXIII]

Should roll, or make a list...

[aaezil]

Maybe you haven't noticed, but he kinda is. I mean, in a way Rygar is Nilbog's bitch, doing the classic research Nilbog wants done so he can write classic EQ code. But another way to look at it is that when Rygar decides what to research, he essentially defines what Nilbog codes, so in that sense Nilbog is Rygar's bitch.

Regardless of who is who's bitch though, look up at the top of the screen. See that bit of text on the left? "Classic Everquest"? We're all Rogean's and Nilbog's bitch, and the two of them (ie. the people who are in fact in charge) have made it very clear that their goal and Rygar's are more or less identical. They may not agree on all the details, but it's certainly safe to say that the people running this server want classic EQ just as much as Rygar.

Ban for bashing staff

[FatherSioux]

Ban for bashing staff

[Bardp1999]

In fairness to OP, Aftermath never leaves this camp because Shiny Brass Idols are essential to free pulling dragons to the entrance of ToV. DKP is awarded for Idol farming as well so this behavior will never stop on its own. This is unacceptable to me because Highpass is one of the quintessential classic zones of Everquest. Running from Qeynos to Freeport through HHP is important, running from Qeynos to Freeport through HHP with a clan of level 60s shit bagging the orcs into eternity... NOT CLASSIC.

[Hotel]

In fairness to OP, Aftermath never leaves this camp because Shiny Brass Idols are essential to free pulling dragons to the entrance of ToV. DKP is awarded for Idol farming as well so this behavior will never stop on its own. This is unacceptable to me because Highpass is one of the quintessential classic zones of Everquest. Running from Qeynos to Freeport through HHP is important, running from Qeynos to Freeport through HHP with a clan of level 60s shit bagging the orcs into eternity... NOT CLASSIC.

You are a member of Aftermath and don't even know that we *don't* give dkp/hr for farming idol camp.

We really are a warm body zerg.

[Grail3r]

Look on the bright side. If you don't like it there is always the next TLP servers coming out next month and they don't have "play nice" rules to worry about .

[Grail3r]

Lists and hand offs can go on forever.

Just get your name put on the list . Simple really. The list might be long but there is an end to the list .

[loramin]

Just get your name put on the list . Simple really. The list might be long but there is an end to the list .

No one is obligated to offer a list. Once they do they have to follow it (although it's not at all clear that the person who takes over has to), but by the server rules you can keep passing camps to your friends without a list ... which, right there, seems to be the entire crux of the problem.

If the staff just added a single rule, something to the effect of "everyone must maintain a list of people who want their camp if they want to hold a camp, and when they are done they must pass the camp to the first person on the list still present" it would completely eliminate lockdowns.

The fact that the staff hasn't created such a rule yet implies that they somehow think that rule would be worse (possibly for them, from a CS perspective) than camp locks.

[Razdeline]

Disable the damn use in ToV already... they did this for Ivandyr's Hoops that 'trivialized content' in VP, how are these any different?

If programming it right now is an issue, just make a GM/Dev declaration that using these in pull tactics is considered exploit and bans / suspensions will result.

This. The item is being exploited so people can trivialize content. It creates a precedent which requires all to have to compete. Whoever has idols wins. How is this not a problem?

[Hotel]

This. The item is being exploited so people can trivialize content. It creates a precedent which requires all to have to compete. Whoever has idols wins. How is this not a problem?

Right.... If only you guys had idols you would compete in ToV.

And if idols didn't exist, ToV would be a fair place? You really don't think guilds that spend all their time camping idol camp won't do other things to get mobs to ent?

We should just rotate ToV so ALS and other guilds that don't bother doing anything in ToV can get the experience they deserve.

[Oleris]

Make necro lifetaps work against raid mobs again and I wouldn't care if Idols got nerfed. It would just make my bard and necro even more useful in TOV.

[Rygar]

Right.... If only you guys had idols you would compete in ToV.

And if idols didn't exist, ToV would be a fair place? You really don't think guilds that spend all their time camping idol camp won't do other things to get mobs to ent?

We should just rotate ToV so ALS and other guilds that don't bother doing anything in ToV can get the experience they deserve.

Train pulling entire zone is crazy cheese exploit anyway you look at it. That is the true culprit. Shocked GMs have allowed this for so long.

[Hotel]

Train pulling entire zone is crazy cheese exploit anyway you look at it. That is the true culprit. Shocked GMs have allowed this for so long.

Can we agree that we would rather have them do something to adjust this than rotating the zone?

Or nah, fuck those losers who care and spend time on the game trying to get the best stuff.

[azeth]

Can we agree that we would rather have them do something to adjust this than rotating the zone?

Or nah, fuck those losers who care and spend time on the game trying to get the best stuff.

When I raided I would hope daily that suddenly I'd wake up the next day and the dragons would be perma rooted.

[Grail3r]

Where in the rules does it state that the owner of the camp can give the camp to anyone they wish ? I do not see this rule anywhere .

In fact a list is not even in the rules . So basically you turn up to camp , wait for person to leave . Then its your camp . If someone else comes along and takes camp before other person leaves then petition .

[DMN]

Where in the rules does it state that the owner of the camp can give the camp to anyone they wish ? I do not see this rule anywhere .

In fact a list is not even in the rules . So basically you turn up to camp , wait for person to leave . Then its your camp . If someone else comes along and takes camp before other person leaves then petition .

Did you bother to read the second post in the thread?

[Grail3r]

Did you bother to read the second post in the thread?

Ok read that link , Thanks . That means someone with 2 - 4 friends can practically keep camp forever as long as they show up to the hand over .

An entire guild has no problem holding a camp forever then .

Is this intended gameplay ?

btw I'm just interested to know how things roll before I put serious time into game .If you know in advance how things are then you can't complain.

[elwing]

It sucks, and it rarely is an issue... But yes, forget about that da idol...

[Moerne]

Ok read that link , Thanks . That means someone with 2 - 4 friends can practically keep camp forever as long as they show up to the hand over .

An entire guild has no problem holding a camp forever then .

Is this intended gameplay ?

btw I'm just interested to know how things roll before I put serious time into game .If you know in advance how things are then you can't complain.

This is literally only happening with one specific camp. For an item that is only relevant to guilds that want to compete in ToV at the very top end of raid content. So if your concern is about camps you'll encounter while leveling, or items you'll be interested in as you level, or even that you might want to camp for yourself at level 60...this isn't an issue for you in any way, shape, or form.

[aaezil]

Break the am monopoly make eq great again

[loramin]

This is literally only happening with one specific camp. For an item that is only relevant to guilds that want to compete in ToV at the very top end of raid content. So if your concern is about camps you'll encounter while leveling, or items you'll be interested in as you level, or even that you might want to camp for yourself at level 60...this isn't an issue for you in any way, shape, or form.

And? How does any of what you said change the fact that guild is monopolizing a camp and denying it to the rest of the server, and how does that in anyway preclude the guy from asking the very legitimate question "Is this intended gameplay ?"

Plus, it's not like the only use of a 1-shot DA is for raiding. Maybe someone wants a backup plan for when they run through SG and fuck up, or maybe someone wants to get to PoM the old-fashioned way (ie. not paying for a CoH). As Aftermath loves to remind us, this server is all about "competition", so why do they (or any group of players) just get to eliminate competition on an item they want?

It's a legit question.

[Hotel]

And? How does any of what you said change the fact that guild is monopolizing a camp and denying it to the rest of the server, and how does that in anyway preclude the guy from asking the very legitimate question "Is this intended gameplay ?"

Plus, it's not like the only use of a 1-shot DA is for raiding. Maybe someone wants a backup plan for when they run through SG and fuck up, or maybe someone wants to get to PoM the old-fashioned way (ie. not paying for a CoH). As Aftermath loves to remind us, this server is all about "competition", so why do they (or any group of players) just get to eliminate competition on an item they want?

This is a dishonest reply.

You and me both know the main reason people, other than guilds, camp for idols is to sell them. And who buys them / creates the market for idols, raiders.

If you want to be 'competitive' on this server, yes you have to invest at least as much time as AM neckbeards. Part of that competition is the idol camp.

It's not like we have some ordained right to the camp but we just play more than other people.

But hey, you know what this server needs, MORE CAMP RULES.

Sorry the game doesn't work how you intend it to. Maybe you can complain more on forums and get it changed.

[loramin]

This is a dishonest reply.

You and me both know the main reason people, other than guilds, camp for idols is to sell them. And who buys them / creates the market for idols, raiders.

If you want to be 'competitive' on this server, yes you have to invest at least as much time as AM neckbeards. Part of that competition is the idol camp.

It's not like we have some ordained right to the camp but we just play more than other people.

But hey, you know what this server needs, MORE CAMP RULES.

Sorry the game doesn't work how you intend it to. Maybe you can complain more on forums and get it changed.

My reply was 100% honest, but you seem to have misunderstood my argument, so let me try and simplify it down for you. Since this isn't RnF I'll replace one word with underscores:

____ You, or anyone else who thinks you get to tell me or the rest of the server how we should play EQ.

Ok, hopefully now that reduced version let's you understand my point. It has nothing to do with anything you wrote, or anything to do with who you or anyone else thinks deserves an item. Shiny brass idols are not inherently raid-only items, anymore than Stinging Wort Potions, Reapers, OT Hammers, etc. I don't tell Aftermath how to raid, and Aftermath shouldn't get to tell the server how (or whether) they get to use Shiny Brass Idols. And it also goes directly against the postings of numerous Aftermath members, including guild leader Detoxx, about how important competition is to them :rolleyes:

But ultimately the staff, not you and not me, gets to decide the rules. They decide what kind of server they want, and to be fair they are not white knights. For years they allowed and even encouraged TMO (Aftermath's even more powerful predecessor) to monopolize all raid content on the server. For years no one but TMO could do any significant Kunark raid bosses.

Eventually though, enough people complained, and Rogean heard their concerns. Since the dark days of TMO we've seen that guild (essentially) be forced to split up, by the staff. We've seen Class R and C rotations introduced by the staff. We've seen new rules to prevent camp lockdowns (eg. you can't hold a camp by corpsing lore items), again from the staff.

So again, ultimately all that matters is what the staff thinks, not what the players think, but again it is perfectly legitimate for a player (like the guy I was replying to) to ask that staff "hey you're against one guild monopolizing raid targets, you're against people endless camping the AC by corpsing rings, so it seems kind of counter to what you're trying to achieve here to let one guild monopolize any camp for any item in the game ... even if that camp is for an item that raiders like use to pull (unclassically) in raids?"

Now, if I had to guess the staff's response, it'd be that there's no clear and easy rule to fix this, or at least not one that doesn't create a lot more work for them (and as we all know the staff are already swamped right now). So I'm guessing this is less a philosophical question about the server they want, and more a practical question of the server they can actually support. But those are pure guesses, and until we hear from an actual staff member there's no way to know what they think ... except to keep asking them questions, like the guy I responded to did.

[Crede]

Never understood why people get so stressed out about anything resulting from the raid scene. Either accept that's what you get on a locked server with no instances, or just don't raid.

Go play on live if you want access to 100% of content with no effort, classic was clearly not designed for that.

[Hotel]

My reply was 100% honest, but you seem to have misunderstood my argument, so let me try and simplify it down for you. Since this isn't RnF I'll replace one word with underscores:



Ok, hopefully now that reduced version let's you understand my point. It has nothing to do with anything you wrote, or anything to do with who you or anyone else thinks deserves an item. Shiny brass idols are not inherently raid-only items, anymore than Stinging Wort Potions, Reapers, OT Hammers, etc. I don't tell Aftermath how to raid, and Aftermath shouldn't get to tell the server how (or whether) they get to use Shiny Brass Idols. And it also goes directly against the postings of numerous Aftermath members, including guild leader Detoxx, about how important competition is to them :rolleyes:

But ultimately the staff, not you and not me, gets to decide the rules. They decide what kind of server they want, and to be fair they are not white knights. For years they allowed and even encouraged TMO (Aftermath's even more powerful predecessor) to monopolize all raid content on the server. For years no one but TMO could do any significant Kunark raid bosses.

Eventually though, enough people complained, and Rogean heard their concerns. Since the dark days of TMO we've seen that guild (essentially) be forced to split up, by the staff. We've seen Class R and C rotations introduced by the staff. We've seen new rules to prevent camp lockdowns (eg. you can't hold a camp by corpsing lore items), again from the staff.

So again, ultimately all that matters is what the staff thinks, not what the players think, but again it is perfectly legitimate for a player (like the guy I was replying to) to ask that staff "hey you're against one guild monopolizing raid targets, you're against people endless camping the AC by corpsing rings, so it seems kind of counter to what you're trying to achieve here to let one guild monopolize any camp for any item in the game ... even if that camp is for an item that raiders like use to pull (unclassically) in raids?"

Now, if I had to guess the staff's response, it'd be that there's no clear and easy rule to fix this, or at least not one that doesn't create a lot more work for them (and as we all know the staff are already swamped right now). So I'm guessing this is less a philosophical question about the server they want, and more a practical question of the server they can actually support. But those are pure guesses, and until we hear from an actual staff member there's no way to know what they think ... except to keep asking them questions, like the guy I responded to did.

tldr

[loramin]

Never understood why people get so stressed out about anything resulting from the raid scene. Either accept that's what you get on a locked server with no instances, or just don't raid.

Go play on live if you want access to 100% of content with no effort, classic was clearly not designed for that.

You've missed a major point: Shiny Brass Idol is not "the raid scene". It's an item that drops in Highpass FFS.

But also, as I just highlighted, while that philosophy used to be warranted in the TMO days, this is not the same server as it used to be, and there actually is a chance for guilds other than "the new TMO" to do top content.

[Crede]

You've missed a major point: Shiny Brass Idol is not "the raid scene". It's an item that drops in Highpass FFS.

No you missed what I said in my post, ANYTHING resulting from the raid scene. This Idol problem only exists because of the raid scene. People who don't raid don't care about having DA to do random group content. And if you absolutely must have one for some crazy solo artist shit, you can easily just buy one.

[Hotel]

No you missed what I said in my post, ANYTHING resulting from the raid scene. This Idol problem only exists because of the raid scene. People who don't raid don't care about having DA to do random group content. And if you absolutely must have one for some crazy solo artist shit, you can easily just buy one.

I enjoy bantering with Loramin but this is wrong. It's hard to buy an idol nowadays.

[Crede]

I enjoy bantering with Loramin but this is wrong. It's hard to buy an idol nowadays.

Taken from your post last week:

You're missing the point. You are a loser for caring about the game and putting time into to acquire the best loot.

If you care that much about idol availability, you're trying to acquire the best loot

[Hotel]

Taken from your post last week:



If you care that much about idol availability, you're trying to acquire the best loot

Look I agree with your over all point. I'm just saying it's disingenuous to say that idols are easy to buy, that's it.

[Crede]

Look I agree with your over all point. I'm just saying it's disingenuous to say that idols are easy to buy, that's it.

It's not though? Was pretty easy to find for sale, OP was just talking about being able to camp it. Check out Zarza's thread in the EC section. Looks like he's one of the AM dudes permacamping/selling.

[Hotel]

It's not though? Was pretty easy to find for sale, OP was just talking about being able to camp it. Check out Zarza's thread in the EC section. Looks like he's one of the AM dudes permacamping/selling.

Bruh, if you can find an idol today in EC ill buy it from u for 1k.

Zarza has that on his permanent WTB list, he would never sell an idol.

Y u trying to argue this point, it's distracting.

[Teppler]

Where in the rules does it state that the owner of the camp can give the camp to anyone they wish ? I do not see this rule anywhere .

In fact a list is not even in the rules . So basically you turn up to camp , wait for person to leave . Then its your camp . If someone else comes along and takes camp before other person leaves then petition .

Forgive me for not reading the rest of the thread yet but allow me to give you a scenario.

I’m holding a camp and there’s a list. Suddenly my friend logs on and wants to go next. I pull the plug on my connection. Suddenly list is gone and I can say I had connection problems. Camp becomes open. Friend is right there. The list was cheated and you’ll never prove it.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Forgive me for not reading the rest of the thread yet but allow me to give you a scenario.

I’m holding a camp and there’s a list. Suddenly my friend logs on and wants to go next. I pull the plug on my connection. Suddenly list is gone and I can say I had connection problems. Camp becomes open. Friend is right there. The list was cheated and you’ll never prove it.

The only way to enforce the list in this case is to have it going LIVE and recorded on these very forums in real time.
So at any given time person can sigh up to the list or see who is next.

So, devs can make a separate forum, and we can have a thread going for each major camp. WOOT 2019 pixels!

P.S. God, how did we do NTVO without the Idol back in a day???

[Teppler]

The only way to enforce the list in this case is to have it going LIVE and recorded on these very forums in real time.
So at any given time person can sigh up to the list or see who is next.

So, devs can make a separate forum, and we can have a thread going for each major camp. WOOT 2019 pixels!

P.S. God, how did we do NTVO without the Idol back in a day???

Lists get convoluted in many different ways. If rules became king, when I log on I might sign up for any and every desirable camp and just see which opens up first. Then we're gonna end up with every camp having a list of 100 people with people freely logging in and out. It'd be a mess. I'm not sure what the answer is.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Lists get convoluted in many different ways. If rules became king, when I log on I might sign up for any and every desirable camp and just see which opens up first. Then we're gonna end up with every camp having a list of 100 people with people freely logging in and out. It'd be a mess. I'm not sure what the answer is.

I agree - all top lists will be filled 3 months ahead ;)
But it will be actually easier for devs to enforce - they just look at the list ;)


Ideally, you want late SOE pnp policy, where all camps must be shared. 1st person gets 1 kill/1 loot, and then camp goes to whoever was here next the longest - literally waiting at the spot for hours without leaving. That of course will require some insane CSR to enforce, which P99 simply doesn't have.

[Crede]

Bruh, if you can find an idol today in EC ill buy it from u for 1k.


I got one. How badly you want those end game pixels? 1k ain't gonna cut it

[Oleris]

Let's just set up a vendor to buy them for 1k. Problem solved.

[aaezil]

What aftermath thinks of you

https://i.imgur.com/ycpOgHA.png

[Teppler]

What aftermath thinks of you

https://i.imgur.com/ycpOgHA.png

Are you really playing everquest if you don't get that into it? I support those messages.

[loramin]

Forgive me for not reading the rest of the thread yet but allow me to give you a scenario.

I’m holding a camp and there’s a list. Suddenly my friend logs on and wants to go next. I pull the plug on my connection. Suddenly list is gone and I can say I had connection problems. Camp becomes open. Friend is right there. The list was cheated and you’ll never prove it.

The only way to enforce the list in this case is to have it going LIVE and recorded on these very forums in real time.
So at any given time person can sigh up to the list or see who is next.

So, devs can make a separate forum, and we can have a thread going for each major camp. WOOT 2019 pixels!

P.S. God, how did we do NTVO without the Idol back in a day???

Lists get convoluted in many different ways. If rules became king, when I log on I might sign up for any and every desirable camp and just see which opens up first. Then we're gonna end up with every camp having a list of 100 people with people freely logging in and out. It'd be a mess. I'm not sure what the answer is.


Wow, y'all sure know how to take things to interesting places!

The only way to enforce the list in this case is to have it going LIVE and recorded on these very forums in real time.

No, this is not true. I can get how you'd imagine it is, but that's only because you're imagining an absolute/perfect system. However, you don't need such a system, and of course everyone (even Kika I'd imagine) should laugh at the insanity of everyone having to leave the game and post on the forum just to take an in-game camp.

This isn't to say that Teppler's wrong about:

I’m holding a camp and there’s a list. Suddenly my friend logs on and wants to go next. I pull the plug on my connection. Suddenly list is gone and I can say I had connection problems. Camp becomes open. Friend is right there. The list was cheated and you’ll never prove it.

But what he is wrong about is being able pull that shit repeatedly. Sure the first time you pull it, even if someone petitions you can claim it was a legit ... but the 2nd time? 3rd time? If you really think you can pull such shit forever, you're basically calling Sirken an idiot.

You see, we already have these advanced rule enforcement systems known as "GMs". They're capable of handling a wide variety of bad player behavior, and it's ok if they don't catch all of it 100% of the time: as long as they can catch most it will discourage most people from cheating, and we'll all get to play on a cheat-free server most of the time. If Bob the camp cheater pulls something shady to hand a camp off to his friend it might work once or twice, but when it doesn't work and he gets banned ... problem solved!

TLDR; We don't need some crazy out-of-game camp tracking system. We also don't just need to throw up our hands and say "but someone could /q, no list system is enforceable!" Simple, logical rules, enforced by intelligent human GMs, have been responsible for all of the rest of the fairness on this server (99% of the game to be honest). That's all we need here.

P.S. Or MAYBE the GMs just need a little more tooling to expose more information to them and help them make better rulings. On that note I've offered to help build such tools for the staff, but since they haven't taken me up on the idea it seems the staff already has everything they need.

[Teppler]

But what he is wrong about is being able pull that shit repeatedly. Sure the first time you pull it, even if someone petitions you can claim it was a legit ... but the 2nd time? 3rd time? If you really think you can pull such shit forever, you're basically calling Sirken an idiot.


One of the worst things an admin can do is start banning people who aren't actually doing anything wrong.

What if someone legitimately has a shitty shaky connection? Is he required to tell people it might blow out at any moment? What if he doesn't tell the list it can blow at any moment but he tells his friend and his friends sticks around.

Do you think this is easy to police?

What if someone is a constant menace to rule lists but legitimately has connection issues? What would you do?

[Wonkie]

I posit you the Eternal Question, "What if?"

the status quo is unchanged. I have won the debate.

[Razdeline]

Right.... If only you guys had idols you would compete in ToV.

And if idols didn't exist, ToV would be a fair place? You really don't think guilds that spend all their time camping idol camp won't do other things to get mobs to ent?

We should just rotate ToV so ALS and other guilds that don't bother doing anything in ToV can get the experience they deserve.

Yeah pretty sure I didn't mention any of that other stuff you're tinfoiling on about. My problems are with idols and the myriad of problems they cause, and the dependency people have on them that don't want to spend the time clearing or dealing with the environment in a more natural way. Competition and all of it's fairness/unfairness can and should continue on.

[Not_Mikeo]

Wow, the greatest takeaway from this thread is how much time Loramin spends trying to express to people how smart he thinks he is.

[Wonkie]

Wow, the greatest takeaway from this thread is how much time Loramin spends trying to express to people how smart he thinks he is.

Got anything better than a one-liner to disprove his claim? :cool:

[loramin]

Wow, the greatest takeaway from this thread is how much time Loramin spends trying to express to people how smart he thinks he is.

You must be new here: if you weren't you'd know that has nothing to do with this thread, as I post the same way in every thread. To be fair though, it's less about wanting to express how smart I think I am, and more about being a former Literature major and current college instructor who has a functional inability to write brief/succinct posts ... but also I do think I'm kinda smart :D. Plus my mom says I am.

[loramin]

One of the worst things an admin can do is start banning people who aren't actually doing anything wrong.

What if someone legitimately has a shitty shaky connection? Is he required to tell people it might blow out at any moment? What if he doesn't tell the list it can blow at any moment but he tells his friend and his friends sticks around.

Do you think this is easy to police?

What if someone is a constant menace to rule lists but legitimately has connection issues? What would you do?

The staff aren't idiots, and they can distinguish a consistent rule breaker. Again, if someone happens to LD and his guildie takes over once the staff might think it was an accident. Maybe even twice. But after three times, neither the staff nor anyone else will be fooled by your Internet connection which magically works perfectly all of the time ... except when it's time to honor a list.

It's the exact same thing with many other things on this server. "Accidentally" KS someone's mob? If it's your first time and you're polite to the staff you may well get off with nothing more than a warning. But do it several times, and I guarantee you'll eat a suspension or ban.