Weapon procs

[Troxx]

Haynar: Capped non-damage hate component for out of class procs/clickies to 400 hate

Has anyone bothered to check this out? Does this mean now that weapons with multiple poison counters cap total at 400 or that each sub component caps at 400? For weapons like WESS that have a combination proc (debuff/blind/poisoncounter) that the sum total is capped at 400 or that each sub part is?

Since warriors have no class specific anythings does this technically mean all procs are now capped at 400?

I haven’t been able to log in just looking for some feedback.

[Legidias]

The issue is how weapons / procs / clickies can tell if it's out of class.

For example, Silken Whip of Ensnaring procs Snare (druid / ranger spell) but whip is usable by warriors and rangers. Its hard for me to imagine a ranger and warrior getting different proc aggro with it unless theres some advanced code in place.

If it is true, then there's also the category of NPC / weapon proc only spells.

[Troxx]

Yeah the procs on WESS and Infestation are "npc only"

I wonder if this mostly only applies to clickies for spells the class doesn't actually get themselves?

EDIT: If not, this will mean all warrior aggro procs could be technically capped at 400 hate; meaning henceforth it's just a matter of getting a proc that hits that 400 minimum and then prioritizing weapon ratio. My hope is this was just a move to cap the clickies people use on raids to trivialize aggro. Either way, raid forces on p99 will have to start demonstrating some discipline with managing their aggro (which is a good thing).

[k9quaint]

The relevant line from the patch notes is:
"Capped non-damage hate component for out of class procs/clickies to 400 hate."

Both procs have damage components. I presume by the wording that those remain unaffected. WESS also has a non-damage component blind, which I presume is capped at 400 now.

Both WESS and Infestation should still have monster aggro associated with the poison counters.

Willsapper has a non-damage proc of Energy Sap (slow). Going only by the patch notes, this should now generate 400 hate for warriors.

All the weapons should be parsed to find out what their new hate generation is.

[Crede]

Curious, is FB + WESS a huge aggro difference over FB + Silken Whip? Not high enough to test yet on my war.

[elwing]

Counters seems non damage hate... ie capped at 400...need testing but the hate on infestation does not come from the damage...

[pasi]

Assuming this was done to implement the live proc changes from the Feb 21 2001 patch (my understanding of this):

The 400 Hate cap is for each individual component to a spell.
Like a ykesha proc would end up being 400 hate for the stun component and 75 hate for the DD component for a total of 475 hate.

The casted vs proc/clicked aspect means a paladin casting the spell stun can still generate in excess of 400 hate, but a gnoll hide lariat proccing will only generate a maximum of 400 hate (depending on mob HP scaling). Same with ranger casting snare vs someone proccing snare.

The exception to this would be components of spells like blade of strategy that have the hate in the component.

http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/stun_e.htm is always relevant.

If you search for the warrior epic thread we had in 2013 here, it could probably go more in depth as well.

[Troxx]

So if you're correct WESS willhave 400 for the blind, 400 for the poison and 400 for the debuff? Or are poison counters different?

[k9quaint]

So if you're correct WESS willhave 400 for the blind, 400 for the poison and 400 for the debuff? Or are poison counters different?

Only if the patch affected non-damage components. The poison is a damage component, so perhaps it's aggro effects were unchanged.

[Troxx]

Any practical feedback yet?

[Dithien]

It’s only anecdotal, but Infestation aggro seems much reduced to me. With Infestation and Trident it took several procs to solidify aggro now. I wonder how much Willsapper was affected.

[Triiz]

Either way, raid forces on p99 will have to start demonstrating some discipline with managing their aggro (which is a good thing).

My bet is only the poor guilds will have to change their strategy. Guilds that can afford to keep mallets, root nets, puppet strings etc charged will still be relying on clickies to maintain aggro, it will just cost them slightly more plat.

[aaezil]

willsapper is garbage now for holding aggro

[Dithien]

willsapper is garbage now for holding aggro

That sucks. Trident seems pretty meh now also.

[Ripqozko]

VP weapons probably hold aggro better

[Troxx]

That sucks. Trident seems pretty meh now also.

This is going to have to be fixed.

[Dillusional]

Well, sword of the shissar is still a better agroe weapon than warrior epic at 619 hate per proc now, versus the 600 (assuming this patch didn't nerf the epic, which I think it didn't). Dumping a full mallet is now worth 2000 agroe instead of the 2500 people thought it was worth before. Trident is still an offhand weapon that at most had agroe per proc reduced by 100..... Feverblade, Bane of the Shissar is still good and probably isn't any worse than before since I've never thought disease counters were worth anything like poison counters ... 11/18 + proc in primary is just good.. Using Feverblade + Trident seems fine for holding agroe in group still. Willsapper had its agroe per proc reduced from 500 to 400.. Willsapper was never a better agroe weapon than Feverblade, it just had 35hp and 9ac + slow for non-raid content.

Having infestation proc reduced to something like 562 agroe does make me wonder if warriors in their low 50s competing against epic monks and rogues in their groups who want to show off are going to be able to hold agroe. I'm interested to see what low 50s warriors without access to raid gear will be using in sebilis from now on.

Honestly I thought slow was worth 400 before, I'm surprised to find out people have been thinking it's worth like 500 or more and things were seriously nerfed with this patch lol...

Everything seems fine to me....

[Dillusional]

Agroe per minute with 255 dex at level 60 from weapons in primary hand post patch:

Dmg Bonus = 11
Proc rate is assumed to be 1 per 30 seconds on average (255/170) + .5 = 2 procs per minute
hate is calculated as DmgBonus + Dmg per swing regardless of how much damage you do
Hate for dots is calculated as 400 + TotalDmg, since 3 poison counters were thought to be something like 600-750 hate before patch


Infestation ((60/1.8) * (9 + 11)) + 562 * 2 = 1790.67 hate per minute on average

Warrior Epic ((60/2.4) * (14 + 11)) + 600 * 2 = 1825 hate per minute on average

Willsapper ((60/2) * (13 + 11)) + 400 * 2 = 1520 hate per minute on average

Sword of the Shissar ((60/2.3) * (14 + 11)) + 619 * 2 = 1890.17 hate per minute on average




This assumes infestation and will sapper were nerfed at all, as people have been talking about, so that slow was worth greater than or equal to 400 hate and 3 poison counters will still be 400 hate as well.....

Hey look the warrior epic is a better agroe weapon than infestation in the primary hand now!! Looks like this patch did fix something, because it was kind of embarrassing for infestation and the VP weapons to be blowing the epic away so hard before the patch...

[Dillusional]

Well, we can all agree willsapper sucks outside of situations where the 35% slow is relevant now....

[Pringles]

The number of poison counters greater than one being irrelevant towards hate seems to be the biggest change. Most of the good aggro procs before now on p99 were relying on every counter to add towards the hate. However there is definitely a 400 hate cap on every spell/proc/clicky regardless of class/beneficial/harmful/damaging right now which isn't right.

[Dillusional]

The number of poison counters greater than one being irrelevant towards hate seems to be the biggest change. Most of the good aggro procs before now on p99 were relying on every counter to add towards the hate. However there is definitely a 400 hate cap on every spell/proc/clicky regardless of class/beneficial/harmful/damaging right now which isn't right.

The patch notes said a 400 hate cap on the non-damage components and it said only for "out of class". It basically improves rogue weapons with high agroe procs and slightly nerfs a few warrior weapons (most are still decent or amazing if my math is right). Stuff like Bladestopper, root nets etc didn't even generate 400 threat per click. Prayers of Life is the only real victim of this I think...

Someone in this thread mentioned snare earlier ....totally moot since snare doesn't generate more than 300 threat.... most effects never generated more than 400 threat (from non-damage component) and the few that did, generated a disproportionate amount.

[Pringles]

The patch notes said a 400 hate cap on the non-damage components and it said only for "out of class". It basically improves rogue weapons with high agroe procs and slightly nerfs a few warrior weapons (most are still decent or amazing if my math is right). Stuff like Bladestopper, root nets etc didn't even generate 400 threat per click. Prayers of Life is the only real victim of this I think...

Someone in this thread mentioned snare earlier ....totally moot since snare doesn't generate more than 300 threat.... most effects never generated more than 400 threat (from non-damage component) and the few that did, generated a disproportionate amount.

Most non-damaging spells used a scale based on the mob's hp to determine hate value. Which makes them....eh you can read all about it yourself here:

http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39819

This is the data H is using to plot the scope of his code so have at it.

[Dillusional]

What a great link pringles. It gave me a lot to think about and reassess.


Hate from procs is capped.

From the February 21, 2001 patch notes:

Quote:
— We reduced the amount of hate that can be caused by a proc. Due to
the high proc rates at upper levels, the amount of hate generated from
procs, and the spells that were selected for those procs, made keeping
the attention of the creature much too easy a task for the tank.
Simply, it nearly eliminated the challenge of keeping a foes attention
at levels above 50.
You can also see this in some old hate research here: http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/hom...?f=307&t=90781

This affects not just stuns, but also slows and snares and presumably any of the effects with hate that scales with NPC hitpoints. The scaling spell hate portion of a proc is capped at 400-- any damage component will stack. I used a swarmcaller on a 3600 hp NPC and the proc did ~236 hate. The proc on a 11.5k hp NPC did 400 hate.


It means my historical assessment of hate values in raid situations was way off but the math I posted earlier about the current situation is completely accurate in the context of a raid.

I like this patch even more now, it matches what happened on live (at least as far as what happened to agroe from weapon procs) and is very balancing. Red blade of warrior epic is a real agroe weapon now. Maybe tanks will have to actually compromise and use agroe weapons in ToV instead of tanking with two 100hp weapons and or a shield.