Playing bard in group

[kcrandle78]

Hello, I am currently level 20 bard. I prefer to play in groups than swarm kiting..so, when in groups I tend to keep my instruments out and swap them as I twist to keep buffs going. I rarely melee attack because I feel like keeping the songs going at their strongest is most important.

Am I playing this properly? Or should I make sure I am auto attacking while keeping songs going even though they are less potent?

[Zipity]

Instruments are the way to go 100%

[Jauna]

The only time you should use instruments is when sitting back singing the songs that require instruments or during downtime.

Next time you see a bard sitting back not meleeing its just some burnout who fetishized the idea of bards because they seen them on raids doing that thinking "oh god this job is so easy i can do it" and end up giving all bards a bad name. Its this or they are slow to switch melee and instruments either because of age or lack of a proper UI that they can change on the fly

believe me that extra 10 str the 2-3 others in the group get from using a drum wont be greater than you sitting back with a flute in your ass.

The level 20 mana song is a huge range, learn to take advantage of that.

[Talon]

That may be true at lower levels, especially if you got yourself decked out with some decent weapons. But as you get higher level, bard melee dps becomes noticeably pitiful compared to other classes. Our roles at this point are almost always puller, CC, or some combination of the two. Sometimes tank I guess. I’m pretty sure a bard will be most effective just sticking with the instruments here.

Though I have never seen any hard numbers on this. What would make a group perform better: using instruments to provide more haste, slows, regen, strength, AC, etc per song or pulling out the weapons to tickle the mob while providing the same songs, just less effectively? Hard to say without trying to do some sort of simulation. Lord knows I’m not going put that amount of effort in.

[FatherSioux]

I just came here to say that bard in a group is the pinnacle of EQ fun, anyone who disagrees doesn't know.

[Ripqozko]

Just kite to 60, join AM, play manasong and get free loot.

[Jauna]

That may be true at lower levels, especially if you got yourself decked out with some decent weapons. But as you get higher level, bard melee dps becomes noticeably pitiful compared to other classes. Our roles at this point are almost always puller, CC, or some combination of the two. Sometimes tank I guess. I’m pretty sure a bard will be most effective just sticking with the instruments here.

Though I have never seen any hard numbers on this. What would make a group perform better: using instruments to provide more haste, slows, regen, strength, AC, etc per song or pulling out the weapons to tickle the mob while providing the same songs, just less effectively? Hard to say without trying to do some sort of simulation. Lord knows I’m not going put that amount of effort in.

There is no much wrong in this post I believe you made it just to piss me off.
Welp lets start off slow.
"More Haste" is crap as as an instrument will not make anthem, berserk and so on give more haste. Later on there is a 5% haste song that requires brass instruments but most people barely notice 5% haste from gear, they wont notice the lack of it from your song
"Regen" while more regen sounds neat most fights end pretty quick and the extra 100hp wont make or break any fight. It is neato as fuck to see a lute hymn user DURING DOWNTIME ONLY but no
Strength is not as big as people make it out to be and no melee dps worth their shit wont ever put starting stats into str. str comes naturally from gear and easily maxed out. You adding more strength to a few people who would benefit from it will not make or break a fight
And to clarity: strength only effects your ability to get a max damage hit, it however DOES NOT effect your chance to land a hit
More AC is debateable but you dont see many clerics these days going out of their way to spend mana on it, do ya?
If you want to be the most useful person in the world make an Enchanter and get comfortable with charming. Same mana regen as a bard, EXTREMELY more damaging when charming, much stronger hastes and way earlier and AoE CC at the snap of a finger. Meanwhile bard AoE CC stops being useful around level 30 by game mechanic

If you want a low energy team player, make a rogue. 3 buttons
Macro1:
/assist tank
/pause 1
/attack on

Macro 2:
/attack off
/pause 1
/doab # (whichever one is hide)
/pause 1
/attack on

And Backstab. No macro needed.

And for the OP ganna say it again, get your ass up there and hit stuff and sing.

[Jauna]

Look, Saturday nights is when I normally get drunk and watch Toonami and tonight is no exception and it really really pisses me off when I see someone playing a class and not living up to its full potential.

I hate seeing bards just sing mana song in non-raid/downtime situations
I hate seeing bards who are one hit wonders.
I hate seeing bards who refuse to pull or tank when the group needs them to be either

Since P99 is mostly people in their 30s reliving what they thought they remember there are many "first timers" who remember what they thought they remembered and bring back what they thought they thought.

Warriors sub level 50 with proc weapons piss me off
Bards who refuse to accept they are a jack of all and a master of what is currently needed in a 6man group situation
Monks who stay in camp to fight and not chain pull when needed (also applicable to rangers and bards)
Enchanters/Necros/Druids who do not charm

Since this is a bard thread, you really need hp/ac/stam gear in that order to literally be that Jack of All hero that a group needs. Why?

For mezzing and charming your CHA does not matter much. Your level + Mobs MR > Your fucking Charisma. Once a Mez lands IT WILL ALWAYS BE FULL DURATION (4 ticks) NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. And your singing/instrument skill > DEX at all fucking times will determine if your song does not miss a note.
I do not know how to explain these further without GM intervention and since they did not want to chime in in the past 9 years since this server was a thing, you really need to take my word that CHA/DEX is not anywhere as nearly as important as these Old Wives Tales posters make them out to be.

You are a tank
You are a puller
You are a downtime reducer
You are a mezzer
You are whatever the group NEEDS you to be and you need to adapt to what they want.

If you refuse or cannot accept this fact, make something else.
Warriors/Knights tank better than you
Monks (and kinda rangers) pull better than you
A cleric/chanter combo is better than you
A chanter is better than you

Stop thinking that end game raiding (mana battery) is your leveling up duty
Stop thinking that only knight/wars are tanks, believe me when your level 20 aoe slow is one of the biggest agro generators is a thing
Stop thinking that your Lull song is useless
Stop thinking y

i lost my train of thought, be a hero that most groups need or move on to another class.

[Wallicker]

Lol but let’s be real, after level 34 put away your weapons until you get your epic. Very very very few situations where the extra regen/mana , Runeage, etc. isn’t more beneficial then a SK pets worth of Dps... you can easily tank,pull,Metz, Cc, charm without weapons and your group will be better for it. Shaman or necro in your group that cantina is like double clarity for those guys and until 55 you can’t cantana with weapon equipped by then if you aren’t twisting shield of song for your tank well I can’t help you

[Wallicker]

Also single target snare at lvl 23 is significantly more aggro than pbaoe slow...

[Wallicker]

Sounds like you are a B+ in the bard category

[Quizlop]

Only reason Bards should melee past their 30s is if they're trying to proc something, have a Primary-slot instrument, or you have Epic.

If you need to DPS at higher levels, you'll probably be better off using chants with a drum.

[Meiva]

This has been most helpful. I thought I knew bards a bit, but I truly didn't. I rolled one a couple of days ago for fun, and I am really enjoying it. I think I would prefer the no melee 34+. Swapping between weapons and instruments is a lot of work. I'm getting a hang of it though. Only need to pull out the instrument just before the song ticks. Now to get to a 4-5 song twist. Probably won't quite get there until I can give up melee.

[Josa]

I made a macro so push Auto inventory and forage, then used a UI that allowed. Me to juggle without the inventory open. That way you only pick stuff up, you never put away.

[Kanuvan]

if you are in a tough camp and get multiple adds and pops just support your team with instruments and mezes/charms, if everything is safe and you are just fighting 1 or 2 mobs you can pull out the melee to get the mob down faster

[Savok]

Look, Saturday nights is when I normally get drunk and watch Toonami and tonight is no exception and it really really pisses me off when I see someone playing a class and not living up to its full potential.

I hate seeing bards just sing mana song in non-raid/downtime situations
I hate seeing bards who are one hit wonders.
I hate seeing bards who refuse to pull or tank when the group needs them to be either

Since P99 is mostly people in their 30s reliving what they thought they remember there are many "first timers" who remember what they thought they remembered and bring back what they thought they thought.

Warriors sub level 50 with proc weapons piss me off
Bards who refuse to accept they are a jack of all and a master of what is currently needed in a 6man group situation
Monks who stay in camp to fight and not chain pull when needed (also applicable to rangers and bards)
Enchanters/Necros/Druids who do not charm

Since this is a bard thread, you really need hp/ac/stam gear in that order to literally be that Jack of All hero that a group needs. Why?

For mezzing and charming your CHA does not matter much. Your level + Mobs MR > Your fucking Charisma. Once a Mez lands IT WILL ALWAYS BE FULL DURATION (4 ticks) NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. And your singing/instrument skill > DEX at all fucking times will determine if your song does not miss a note.
I do not know how to explain these further without GM intervention and since they did not want to chime in in the past 9 years since this server was a thing, you really need to take my word that CHA/DEX is not anywhere as nearly as important as these Old Wives Tales posters make them out to be.

You are a tank
You are a puller
You are a downtime reducer
You are a mezzer
You are whatever the group NEEDS you to be and you need to adapt to what they want.

If you refuse or cannot accept this fact, make something else.
Warriors/Knights tank better than you
Monks (and kinda rangers) pull better than you
A cleric/chanter combo is better than you
A chanter is better than you

Stop thinking that end game raiding (mana battery) is your leveling up duty
Stop thinking that only knight/wars are tanks, believe me when your level 20 aoe slow is one of the biggest agro generators is a thing
Stop thinking that your Lull song is useless
Stop thinking y

i lost my train of thought, be a hero that most groups need or move on to another class.

I disagree with a lot of what you said but specifically that monks and rangers are better pullers than a bard. In a group I will be lining up pulls non stop, charming, mez/snare splitting and basically keeping the exp flowing far better than and monk or ranger could.

[Talon]

Wow, Juana. You went on a lengthy two post rant after misreading my post. Impressive?

The original question is about when, or if ever, there is a time a bard should be meleeing. You say they should be. I say that it is very dependent on various factors, and that it is probably not worth it.

If you are the puller, and the group is mowing down mobs, it’s irrelevant because you should be chain pulling. If the group doesn’t have an enchanter, then you may be ccing as well if there are multiple mobs (which should be avoided if you are lulling properly, but there can be mistakes, repops, etc). No enchanter means no clarity so the boys in the back need some mana as well. Is it better to sing the chorus and whack on the mobs? Or should you bust the lute out and hit them with both the chorus and the cantana before rushing out to pull again? That all depends, but my money is on the latter.

If someone else is pulling then maybe you are strictly there for cc. If there are multiple mobs coming then you are probably going to be cycling through and mezzing them. Not much time for attacking here. If they are single pulls and mana is fine, then what the heck, go tickle the mob a bit. Is it more effective than providing more mana and slightly better bonuses to the dps? I don’t know. It probably won’t make that much of a difference either way.

You find yourself tanking? Well, holy fucking shit get ready to take a beating while you tickle them mobs from the front.

Is there enchanter in the group? YIPPEE! No one gives a fuck what you do! Why are you even here? Oh wait, you can slow the mobs too, right? But we already have a shaman actually. What’s that? Tank? Dude there is literally a warrior standing right next to you. Holy shit why are you not pulling? No, stop, stop hitting the mob. Go pull another one. Jesus.

My point is that, in my experience, the limited times in which I have had the opportunity to use my weapons I have wondered at their efficacy. It’s pretty much only when you are acting as the main CCer and the pulls are coming in smoothly. As stated elsewhere, this can change if you have an epic or primary slot instrument.

[Troxx]

Jauna is a trash poster.

Always has been.

Always will be.

Jauna is what happens when you combine drugs, crippling depression, borderline personally disorder, and marginal intelligence with a dash of self-destructive narcissism.

[Troxx]

Bards in a group?

After level 45 it’s really simple. Know your song book. Understand your group. Balance the songs you sing to match the needs of your group. You can tank, pull, heal, cc and support very well if needed. You can often do more than one of these jobs effectively at the same time.

Most importantly? Put your fucking weapons away. Unless you have epic, having weapons equipped is pointless 99% of the time. You add exponentially more umph to your group with instruments. I’ve got a 60 bard. Melee dps even with goodnworn haste is garbage unless you have epic + high end raid gear. Even with epic + raid weapon your personal dps is bad, but at least with epic you have a killer proc and 1.8 mod to singing and all other instruments rolled into one.

Time spent pretending you can melee dps is better spent on situational awareness ... or literally anything else.

[astuce999]

I disagree with a lot of what you said but specifically that monks and rangers are better pullers than a bard. In a group I will be lining up pulls non stop, charming, mez/snare splitting and basically keeping the exp flowing far better than and monk or ranger could.

I agree with everything Savok said. But then again, he always speaks the truth!

cheers,

Astuce

[Jimjam]

I disagree with a lot of what you said but specifically that monks and rangers are better pullers than a bard. In a group I will be lining up pulls non stop, charming, mez/snare splitting and basically keeping the exp flowing far better than and monk or ranger could.

In fairness, most bards don't pull as well as you do either. So as a class they might technically be better pullers, as players it doesn't always work out that way.

[Jauna]

For those of you advocating putting weapons away, just reroll into an enchanter and get out of the bard class because at least then you wont be corrupting the next generation of bards with terrible terrible terrible advice and trains of thought.

[Duik]

Trains.
That's Gold.

[Wallicker]

Lol at you think weapons(pre-epic) > instruments still. I’d love to see you duo with any class so that your deficiencies aren’t covered up by the rest of the group. Try once with weapons then try again with instruments then get back to me.

[Troxx]

For those of you advocating putting weapons away, just reroll into an enchanter and get out of the bard class because at least then you wont be corrupting the next generation of bards with terrible terrible terrible advice and trains of thought.

/facepalm

Have you ever parsed bard melee dps?

[Troxx]

With a standard 3 song twist (cantata/nivs/mcvaxius)

Pre-epic Weapons (12-15 melee dps)
19 hp per tick to all
12 mana per tick to all
31 str
22 attack
8 dmg shield

+ a 4th song of your choice


————————
————————

With instruments:

46hp a tick to all
12 mana a tick to all
68 str
44 attack
17 dmg shield

Plus whatever 4th song you want to include 10% stacking haste (requires instrument), occlusion debuff on standby (requires instrument), mezzes that last an extra tick (bonus with wind use).

Many options for the 4th slot either require instrument (stacking haste + attack 60) or likewise get big buffs.

——————————
——————————

I don’t think any sane group would opt for the bard to swing his or her weapons for that leet 12-15 melee dps. The alternative more than doubles the real power a bard brings to the group. 27 extra regen? That’s nearly 2 extra fungis to everyone which keeps things rolling smoothly. If the group did need the bard to dps ... well with instruments you can stack 50 dps easily with chants; up to 74 if you toss in the pbaoe dots.

Bards are mobile armored casters with lots of utility and buffing potential. Bards are not melee dps. Once epic is in the equation everything changes, but even then it’s not the bards melee dps that matters; it’s the proc on epic paired with a 180% mod to all songs sung seamlessly (vs 210-260% mod with a real instrument). Even then, the talented epic bard I grouped with over the weekend in DN was barely breaking 20dps most fights.

[Ennewi]

A bard not equipping instruments is worse than a knight not equipping their shield while tanking. It's only done well if any of the classes have their epic or something very epic-like to compensate for the loss.

Looking through old screenshots, all of the bards in groups 35+ are swapping between different instruments and occasionally adding in a nivs sword click. My bard alt only has crap ratio claw weapons bagged for fashionquest and one equally bad dmg/dly weapon with tash proc. Spare platinum has gone a lot farther when spent on upgrading instruments so group benefits accumulate faster, and then armor/hp gear for survivability. With a few exceptions, weapons on a bard are just hood ornaments/vanity plates; instruments enhance what's under the hood.

[Zipity]

Shield of song is also affected lute... with regen + shield of song + rondo + slow you will anger the cleric in your group
Bc they will have to nuke instead of heal on regular group content

[branamil]

PSA

Bards please stop charming unless you have an invis ring. It's annoying as fuck to wait 20 Seconds to attack and it's just not worth it. It also means your group can't debuff it while its waiting. Just mez for the love of god.

[DMN]

PSA

Bards please stop charming unless you have an invis ring. It's annoying as fuck to wait 20 Seconds to attack and it's just not worth it. It also means your group can't debuff it while its waiting. Just mez for the love of god.

At 30+ are you really killing pulls faster than 20 seconds anyway? And the higher you get, the better charm becomes for extra DPS.

[astuce999]

20 years and still so much misinformation.

I love it. No other class comes even close. (imagine wizards arguing about how much damage Ice Comet does...)

Keep this thread going, it's very entertaining.

cheers,

Astuce

[Wallicker]

Once charms start costing mana(assuming you have no FT gear) it becomes impractical to just chain charm in a fast pulling group I find it better at that point to use charm as a powerful utility. You can make mobs HT each other, send your pet in a room to pull it without getting hit thus giving you time to make it back to your group safely. Group root charming is the exception to this where you pbaoe snare 8+ mobs and your partner roots them all on top of each other. Then charm each one and it’s like you have 7+ pets and the dps is just stupid. This method works exceptionally well with a necro/shaman duo bc the regen of your cantana provides them a shit ton of extra mana unless of course you have your sword equipped...

[branamil]

At 30+ are you really killing pulls faster than 20 seconds anyway? And the higher you get, the better charm becomes for extra DPS.

lol. wrong. stop charming in groups.

[DMN]

lol. wrong. stop charming in groups.

Cause you are too dumb/lazy to target things with the keyboard?

[Jauna]

Cause you are too dumb/lazy to target things with the keyboard?

No because charm breaks up the flow of groups and it never lasts long enough to deal significant damage since charm pets are only worth it with a torch and haste, and with a 3 tick window to give a torch and no haste for you to give. fuck everything when the charm breaks early and the mob decides to bash you as they always do. enjoy the snowball effect if you have to mez targets with an angry ex-charm pet on you.

And while this is an "other user error" thing, more often than naught people just stare blankly at your charm pet with auto attack on trying to attack it. warning macro or not.

Just mez
do not charm

[Jauna]

This method works exceptionally well with a necro/shaman duo bc the regen of your cantana provides them a shit ton of extra mana unless of course you have your sword equipped...

This is probably why you should not take advice from someone named Wallicker. He can damage control and say "lol wait nm i meant hp lol ur dum" but this comes off as thinking Cantina gives more mana with a lute on.

[DMN]

No because charm breaks up the flow of groups and it never lasts long enough to deal significant damage since charm pets are only worth it with a torch and haste, and with a 3 tick window to give a torch and no haste for you to give. fuck everything when the charm breaks early and the mob decides to bash you as they always do. enjoy the snowball effect if you have to mez targets with an angry ex-charm pet on you.

And while this is an "other user error" thing, more often than naught people just stare blankly at your charm pet with auto attack on trying to attack it. warning macro or not.

Just mez
do not charm

Nope. It depends on a bunch of factors if its worth it to charm or not, not simple "don't charm in group" dogmatism. Your "group" might only be 2-3 people. You could be sitting there waiting for spawns because the area has been broken already or you could be just breaking the area where caster/healer mana is vital to the groups efficacy.. You could be sitting there in a group of fully twinked characters dump trucking everything or non twinks plodding along. Party class composition, mob types, and many other f things play into it..

[Wallicker]

This is probably why you should not take advice from someone named Wallicker. He can damage control and say "lol wait nm i meant hp lol ur dum" but this comes off as thinking Cantina gives more mana with a lute on.

Canni drains hp and gives mana, Lich drains hp and gives mana, therefore when running cantana with the lute the extra HP regen = a shit ton extra mana for them. I didn’t misspeak I just know my class and the mechanics of the game.

[Terrel]

Nope. It depends on a bunch of factors if its worth it to charm or not, not simple "don't charm in group" dogmatism. Your "group" might only be 2-3 people. You could be sitting there waiting for spawns because the area has been broken already or you could be just breaking the area where caster/healer mana is vital to the groups efficacy.. You could be sitting there in a group of fully twinked characters dump trucking everything or non twinks plodding along. Party class composition, mob types, and many other f things play into it..

DMN and Wallicker are correct. Charm can be a nice addition in your arsenal during grouping, but it is situational. It adds to group DPS in bursts.

If you're charming a secondary mob when the target mob is at 10%, you're doing it wrong. If you're charming a secondary mob when the target mob is at 100% and it takes 30 seconds to kill it, you're doing it right. And oh, btw....if you have to wait 5 seconds at the end of charm for it to break? That's off of the 9 seconds that the charmed mob gained you by adding it's DPS. You're now 4 seconds to the good! (That's the actual math;))

And when you get a hit a few times after charm breaks? No problem! You're a bard, and with your super regen, you'll be back at full HP by the time the next mob is in camp. And so will most of your group.

[astuce999]

I would like to hear more about a few things:

-the 20 seconds charm

-the charm that breaks early

-the angry ex-charmed pet

-the extra tick on mez with a flute

-FT and bards

It's fascinating.

cheers,

Astuce

[Legidias]

Pull 3 mobs. Group fights one, charmed mob fights other mob. Bard can even twist with instruments for group regen / haste while basically being their own charm kiting solo.

Kill first mob, clean up 20% hp 2 other mobs.

ez pz lemon squeezy.

[Galenbor]

A few points about Bard group play, particularly regarding charm;

Charming is indeed situational when in a group. A full group with a charming class (Necro/Chanter/Druid) easily turns into confusion if you start charming as a Bard. Because Bard charm works differently in several ways aside from the short duration.

- Bard charm wipes all but 1 point of aggro on the Bard. It's a memblur in this case, and in fact after Bard takes a swipe from his former pet, next one on hate list gets it. Try dropping charm next to the sitting caster who annoyed you. Or use it to save a Shaman or Chanter with a lot of aggro from mez, slow etc. the attention he's due shortly from a pissed off mob.

- All charm spells breaks duration spells cast by NPCs, like Slow and DoTs. For a Bard charm with above exceptions in mind, this turns otherwise annoying or downright nasty spells into a short inconvenience.

- Some times, charm is the only option to stopping a mob from dealing damage, like caster giants, or most mobs in Skyfire. Can't mez'em, can't root'em and stop them nuking. Charm at least stops them cold for a duration while other stuff is handled.

- Finaly, best use of charm tends for me to come in small groups or duos, especially if there's a root capable class involved. The Cluster Charming (bunch of mobs rooted in melee range, charm one after the other) is a firm favourite for fun and effective tactic. Cleared trains in KC that chased full groups to zoneline with just a Ranger buddy, who it has to be said is well aware of the silly stuff I like to pull and thus on the ball. Remember you can use your mez to push rooted mobs that end up out of melee range, just turn your facing to adjust the direction (Twilight pulls, so face away from the direction you need).

Have fun and remember, a well played Bard is a true asset to any group, if you get told to bring out weapons and just play mana song, it's perhaps a good time to look for another group.

[Terrel]

A few points about Bard group play, particularly regarding charm;

Charming is indeed situational when in a group. A full group with a charming class (Necro/Chanter/Druid) easily turns into confusion if you start charming as a Bard. Because Bard charm works differently in several ways aside from the short duration.

- Bard charm wipes all but 1 point of aggro on the Bard. It's a memblur in this case, and in fact after Bard takes a swipe from his former pet, next one on hate list gets it. Try dropping charm next to the sitting caster who annoyed you. Or use it to save a Shaman or Chanter with a lot of aggro from mez, slow etc. the attention he's due shortly from a pissed off mob.

- All charm spells breaks duration spells cast by NPCs, like Slow and DoTs. For a Bard charm with above exceptions in mind, this turns otherwise annoying or downright nasty spells into a short inconvenience.

- Some times, charm is the only option to stopping a mob from dealing damage, like caster giants, or most mobs in Skyfire. Can't mez'em, can't root'em and stop them nuking. Charm at least stops them cold for a duration while other stuff is handled.

- Finaly, best use of charm tends for me to come in small groups or duos, especially if there's a root capable class involved. The Cluster Charming (bunch of mobs rooted in melee range, charm one after the other) is a firm favourite for fun and effective tactic. Cleared trains in KC that chased full groups to zoneline with just a Ranger buddy, who it has to be said is well aware of the silly stuff I like to pull and thus on the ball. Remember you can use your mez to push rooted mobs that end up out of melee range, just turn your facing to adjust the direction (Twilight pulls, so face away from the direction you need).

Have fun and remember, a well played Bard is a true asset to any group, if you get told to bring out weapons and just play mana song, it's perhaps a good time to look for another group.

All great points, and all accurate! Always keep charm memmed. Rooted while pulling? Np...charm the rooter, and viola, you're free!

[Troxx]

Charm is a great tool. It has limitations and the user has to be careful not to bone-headedly charm a target within 18-24 seconds of expected engage time.

[Jauna]

Canni drains hp and gives mana, Lich drains hp and gives mana, therefore when running cantana with the lute the extra HP regen = a shit ton extra mana for them. I didn’t misspeak I just know my class and the mechanics of the game.

I never once seen a necro click off lich with non-lute cantina on and if they have lich and cantina they have mana to tap back whatever. and shaman will get full mana long before their health is in danger because most likely they will have their self regen on with possible racial or item regen.

[Karok]

Do flowing thought items work with bards? I thought at this expansion level they don’t.

[Legidias]

Yes

[DMN]

I never once seen a necro click off lich with non-lute cantina on and if they have lich and cantina they have mana to tap back whatever. and shaman will get full mana long before their health is in danger because most likely they will have their self regen on with possible racial or item regen.


Necros/shaman are almost always able to make the most of extra health. Even if necros are not losing life with lich they can shadowbond for 7 ticks, costing 20 mana and giving someone around 900 hit points at the cost of 500 of their own. That's like 400 hp net heal for 20 mana. That's over 300% more mana efficient healing than torpor and no debuffs. Shaman's use for extra hp is so obvious it doesn't need mentioning.

[zanderklocke]

Efficiency aside, is the individual having more fun meleeing or using instruments? That's the real question. What is the level of fun added per choice?

You can also melee while holding only an instrument and do both!

[Legidias]

No Fun! Only min/max!

(also, you can melee while subbing in instruments right as songs complete if you really want to min/max. Instruments only / melee only have no idea what theyre on about)

[Wallicker]

Hahaha yea might as well just pull with eyeball, swap bw 3 instruments and melee all at same time Im so lazy why don’t I do this nonstop!

[Ashenden]

Please keep debating Bard and talking about all the things you do so I can learn to play it. So far I've just been running around fast with a fancy drum and shield to look like I am doing stuff.

Could you guys discuss Highsun next? I feel like it doesn't get enough love as a completely unique mechanic for Bards.

[Jimjam]

The most important thing while using highsun is to incorporate it into a social macro based around the Black Widows script used for deweaponising Bruce Banner.

[Wallicker]

Highsun is a fun one great for finding PHers and tracking named’s pathing routes if you combine it with bind sight. Also not a bad way to split mobs if you have a coth mage or a zoneline nearby, just Deftdance highsun the ones you don’t want in the pull then get cothed to clear aggro. Also highsun is super fun for fear kiting a mob if it starts to wander to far poof back to spawn. Want to interrupt something you can’t mez or fear say a CHing mob that your fighting right on its spawn? Man this song is fun.

I’m sure Jauna can school me on it’s real uses though.

[Legidias]

Highsun is also one of the strongest (if not completely the strongest) dispels in game if you're fighting something on top of its spawn and it has buffs on.

[Wallicker]

Aye great way to remove buffs/damage shields before bringing a mob back to your group during the daytime!

[Troxx]

Please keep debating Bard and talking about all the things you do so I can learn to play it. So far I've just been running around fast with a fancy drum and shield to look like I am doing stuff.

Could you guys discuss Highsun next? I feel like it doesn't get enough love as a completely unique mechanic for Bards.

Just spend some time looking through the songbook. Bards are unique in that even many of our low level songs are never outgrown. Some like the mez/charm/hastes just bump up the level of mobs affected or potency but many of them are completely unique.

The best bards I’ve known were the ones that found creative ways to use the tools available.

As an example; take the aoe 54 snare/slow strings song. I can promise you I’m not the first person to think of it, use the song that way, or do it ... but I had not seen it done before and neither did the people we were hunting with. The story goes a little like this. We were hunting KC lcy. A train was called from hands and I quickly managed to mem this song with the only goal of slowing the train down to let people escape. 3 out of 6 were on quick bio afk and I landed the song on the first mobs to hit camp. More trickled in as I packed me close. After 12 mobs were thus CC’d the afk folks got back and we laughed and decided to just kill them.

An idea was born and we did that for 1-2 hrs straight. The zone was mostly empty and the monk would just go grab 4-6 at a time and flop them on us, immediately heading out to get more. At times we got to 20+ in the CY with the melee just focus firing and the cleric/druid (no longer needing to heal) just pbaoe nuked. Eventually enough people showed up in zone that we had to dial back.

I’m no evil genius. I can promise others on p99 and classic had long since figured that out but it was a new concept to everyone in the zone that day. Wickedly fast xp and a good example how using a single song in an atypical way allows the bard class to powerfully CC in ways that no other class can pull off.

Highsun shenanigans are another good example.

Just look at each song and think outside the box. Many of even our low level songs are highly relevant at level 60.

[Zipity]

lol one beautiful morning KC was empty and there was only a ranger 2 mages and a cleric in the zone with my bard that was lvl 57 at the time.... mass pbaoe slaughter ensued ranger just pulled trains to me right at the entrance we were clearing captain,basement, Lcy,rcy, hands

[Wallicker]

Nice of y’all to share and have a puller do the hard part I can do the above solo naked with a drum and lute

[Wallicker]

Should have a naked swarm tournament tournament lolz do like Velks, DN, KC, TD raptors, OT outpost, HS north clear

[Tecmos Deception]

The only time you should use instruments is when sitting back singing the songs that require instruments or during downtime.

Next time you see a bard sitting back not meleeing its just some burnout who fetishized the idea of bards because they seen them on raids doing that thinking "oh god this job is so easy i can do it" and end up giving all bards a bad name. Its this or they are slow to switch melee and instruments either because of age or lack of a proper UI that they can change on the fly

believe me that extra 10 str the 2-3 others in the group get from using a drum wont be greater than you sitting back with a flute in your ass.

The level 20 mana song is a huge range, learn to take advantage of that.

What's a leveling bard's melee dps? Is it double digit? Lol.

Bards are kings of adapting to the group and the situation in question. Maybe sometimes melee dps is best. But I think as often as not, rocking instruments and dedicating to twisting is just as good or better.

Party is light on heals? There's a bunch of casters in camp? You need snares, mezzes, charms, dispels? Only the most tryhard of minmaxers is going to be swapping instruments to manage that stuff while also trying to melee. And most of those won't be able to handle it efficiently.

[branamil]

Melee DPS is absurdly pathetic, you're much better off making sure the mana is pumping and the melee are hasted and the mob is slowed/mezd. Whipping out your breath of harmony for 9 dps is just being vain

[Wallicker]

Troxx who is your bard?

[Ashenden]

What level did you guys get Hand to Hand to 100? I think that is the true answer for whether or not you are a tryhard doing instrument swapping + melee in groups in your 20s.

Just checked my oldest logs. For me it was level 35.

[Troxx]

Troxx who is your bard?

Troxx is my bard. I rarely play him these days. I finished out to 60 shortly after Velious went live and I ran out of non-raid content to so.

We grouped in DN on my paladin Mithromir.

[Wallicker]

Ahhh cool man!

[Wallicker]

We slaughtered many Paebala on that day

[Crawdad]

Had to jump on the pile and say anybody telling you to focus on meleeing is bad. There are a lot of bardlings out there who get tunnel vision while meleeing and ignore their amazing toolkit. You wont get to really enjoy hack-and-slashing-keyboard-targeting-to-CC-and-impress-everyone until you get Epic or primary slot instruments.


Could you guys discuss Highsun next? I feel like it doesn't get enough love as a completely unique mechanic for Bards.

Highsun+tracking is great for when you need to track down placeholders and spawn points, or just to punt an annoying mob buzzing at you. It also works on a surprising number of raid targets, so have it mem'd for when you lose FTE and feel like taking a break.

[MikeXG]

Does highsun memblur or will the mob teleport back to spawn and then aggro?

[Legidias]

It can memblur if it leashes