Question about lists for camps

[PrimeNeedles]

Hello!

Newish player. Never had a character above 42. Played on LIVE a little bit back in early 2000's.

Question: When players make a "list" for contested camps (ex. Shiny Brass Idol in Highpass Hold, or Ring of the Ancients in Ocean of Tears), is it expected that the players on the list should stay in the zone to remain on the list? Or are they free to wander? What is the accepted protocol/etiquette regarding these lists? Any input/insight would be appreciated.

Thank you!

[DMN]

You should know lists aren't really binding on P99. Only the person camping the mob can decide to honor the list or not. Even if they honor the list but decide to leave/log before the next person arrives, someone else can come swoop in and snag the camp under you. So, ya, if you really want the camp you should make sure you are ready to take the camp over ASAP.

[PrimeNeedles]

Are there rules pertaining to lying to players on Blue? Or is it a case of cutthroat = advantage like in real life?

[Legidias]

Unfortunately, you just need to have fraps running when you make a player agreement (like next in line for camp).

[loramin]

You should know lists aren't really binding on P99. Only the person camping the mob can decide to honor the list or not. Even if they honor the list but decide to leave/log before the next person arrives, someone else can come swoop in and snag the camp under you. So, ya, if you really want the camp you should make sure you are ready to take the camp over ASAP.

This is absolutely not true! Please don't spread misinformation: if you don't actually know how something works, don't say anything at all.


OP, what is true is that in practice the staff stays out of the vast majority of player disputes, and the players work things out themselves. This means that most of the time, the way the list works is entirely dependent on the player, and nothing a GM says will have impact.

However, if someone does lie about list position or something, and a GM does get involved, there absolutely are rules for them. Here's a relevant GM quote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.
- https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9

So, as the above quote says, if a GM is involved, it's your turn on a list, and you're not there (or at least there within a few minutes, where "few" depends on the camp and the GM) then yes you would lose your place on the list. But again, 95% (99%?) of the time GMs will never get involved with a list, so it comes down to the players.

I don't think most players care enough to check whether you stay in-zone while you're on the list; they just care about whether you're there when it's your turn. So most of the time you absolutely can wander wherever you want, as long as you make it back by the time you come up on the list. But if you miss your time because you were out of zone, or if a GM gets involved for some reason, you can lose your place as a result.

If it were me I'd be sure to ask the list-holder how they feel, and do whatever they say. If they say it's fine to leave zone, and I was paranoid, I'd probably take a screenshot of them saying that ... but realistically I probably wouldn't even bother with that. Your mileage may vary.


P.S. As Legidias mentioned, IF a dispute happens and a GM is brought in, it always helps if you have "fraps" (if you've recorded a video of your session). This is helpful because the GMs can't see every detail of what happened, so to a certain extent disputes are a "he says she says" situation. Having "fraps" avoids that possibility.

However, it's not like everyone on the server runs around playing with video capture on. Again, 99.9% of the time you play you'll never interact with a GM, and even on the rare occasions that you do the GM will still likely be able to make a fair call without video. But in the very small fraction of the time when someone else is breaking the rules, a GM steps in, and it's not easy for the GM to determine exactly what happened, video evidence can be handy, so it just boils down to whether you want the added hassle of having to record every session in order to avoid being screwed by some lying asshole player 0.00001% of the time (made up percentage since it's impossible to say exactly how often this will happen: the point is it's very rare) .

[kaluppo]

I have found the best way to assure you get a camp passed to you is to be right there when the current camp holder leaves.

So the key is to stay very close. Bind there if you are able to do so. Then you are just a gate away from being at the camp. If unable to bind then at least stay in the same zone. So lets say you are next in line for AC camp. You can go run over to the seafury island and solo seafury Cyclops for XP/gems while you wait cause you are less then a minute away from the AC camp.

[DMN]

This is absolutely not true! Please don't spread misinformation: if you don't actually know how something works, don't say anything at all.


Everything I said is true.

[DMN]

Are there rules pertaining to lying to players on Blue? Or is it a case of cutthroat = advantage like in real life?

"Trust but verify".

[loramin]

Everything I said is true.

In your head maybe, but not on P99. What you said directly contradicts a GM quote, and I'll take the word of a GM over the word of a random poster with 200 posts any day of the week.

You should know lists aren't really binding on P99.

The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next.

[DMN]

In your head maybe, but not on P99. What you said directly contradicts a GM quote, and I'll take the word of a GM over the word of a random poster with 200 posts any day of the week.

"Waiting for a camp" is not the same thing as "waiting on a list". Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. Is pretty unequivocal and easily gamed.

[loramin]

"Waiting for a camp" is not the same thing as "waiting on a list". Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. Is pretty unequivocal and easily gamed.

Now we're getting pedantic. You said, literally "lists aren't really binding on P99." But, again literally, they are. And I have a quote from a GM saying as much.

Saying that people can choose not to make a list and just give the camp to their friend is entirely beside the point, because we weren't talking about giving camps to friends. The title of the thread is "Question about lists for camps".

You also claimed "Only the person camping the mob can decide to honor the list or not." Again, this just isn't true. Yes someone can avoid having a list in the first place, but IF they start a list and tell another player that they're on it, they are obligated (by the server rules, which a GM will enforce) to hand the camp over to them.

The only true thing you claimed was "Even if they honor the list but decide to leave/log before the next person arrives, someone else can come swoop in and snag the camp under you", and even that's misleading because it's very rare for someone to have a camp, start a list, tell another player they're next on the list, then suddenly disappear, and then someone else is waiting right at the spawn point, sees that happen, and takes the spawn. In that incredibly rare circumstance yes someone could "cut ahead" of you in line, but that's not at all the same thing as saying lists don't matter here.

It really feels to me like you read that one thread about lists that happened a few weeks ago, didn't get to the end of it, didn't understand the rules in the first place, and are now convinced you know everything about P99 rules regarding lists ... even when what you "know" is directly contradicted by GM quotes.

[DMN]

What a silly boy. So if I was intending on giving my friend the spawn instead of person X on the list I can sit there until I know the mob will respawn soon, then shoot the tell off to the dude who was supposed to get the camp and when the mob pops my friend is already there staking his claim to the site. But, but, but,but the list?!? Or maybe I went link dead after I got what I wanted and someone else came by and snagged it? Does the camp holder have to have a mgic wand tha ensures their internet connectivity? do tell.

[loramin]

What a silly boy. So if I was intending on giving my friend the spawn instead of person X on the list I can sit there until I know the mob will respawn soon, then shoot the tell off to the dude who was supposed to get the camp and when the mob pops my friend is already there staking his claim to the site. But, but, but,but the ist?!?

Ok first off, why on God's green earth would you even do that? If you're going to give a camp to your friend, and Bob walks up and says "can I get on the list?", why would you lie and tell Bob he's on the list, and then secretly give the camp to your friend? Any sane person would just say "sorry Bob, my friend Fred is next, but you're welcome to ask him about being next after."

But IF you lied to Bob, told him he was next on the list, and then let your friend have the camp ... realistically Bob would probably never know, which means no GM would be brought in, which means the rules aren't even relevant.

But IF Bob was secretly sitting there invis, and saw you give the camp to his friend after he told you that you could have it, you absolutely could petition, and all else being equal you would "win" (but that "all else being equal" part is important: remember, GMs adjudicate not just on the merits of cases, but also on other factors like how polite, or not, the players involved act).

Or maybe I went link dead after I got what I wanted and someone else came by and snagged it? Does the camp holder have to have a mgic wand tha ensures their internet connectivity? do tell.

We covered this scenario already. If the camp holder suddenly goes link dead, all bets are off. But again, the vast majority of the time if a player sits there for however many hours waiting for a spawn, the odds of their internet crapping out the exact moment they get the kill are extremely small. And barring that extremely unlikely situation, the vast vast majority of players are simply going to send a tell to whoever is next on the list after they kill the mob, because it takes almost no effort to do so and most people aren't psychopaths.

If the entirety of your weird obsession with non-existent list rules is coming from scenarios where people's Internet connections crap out at fantastically unlikely times ... well it's time to find a new weird obsession.

[DMN]

Ok first off, why on God's green earth would you even do that? If you're going to give a camp to your friend, and Bob walks up and says "can I get on the list?", why would you lie and tell Bob he's on the list, and then secretly give the camp to your friend ... you would just say "sorry Bob, my friend Fred is next, but you're welcome to ask him about being next."

Because you took advantage of some suckers who bought into the infallibility of a list.


But IF you lied to Bob, told him he was next on the list, and then let your friend have the camp ... realistically Bob would probably never know, which means no GM would be brought in, which means the rules aren't even relevant.

But was the list binding? Clearly not.


But if Bob was secretly sitting there invis, and saw you give the camp to his friend after he told you that you could have it, you absolutely could petition, and all else being equal you would "win" (but that "all else being equal" part is important: remember, GMs adjudicate not just on the merits of cases, but also on other factors like how polite, or not, the players involved act).


Doesn't work if they log out/go link dead. It'll be FTE.

[loramin]

Because you took advantage of some suckers who bought into the infallibility of a list.

So all this insanity is revolving around a case where player #1 deliberately lies to player #2 (despite having absolutely no incentive to do so, and despite it clearly being against the rules) and gives a camp to player #3? Do you even play on P99? Has such a situation ever even happened to you? I've been here over half a decade, and not once have I ever had any player dispute regarding lists whatsoever, let alone a dispute where someone told me I could have a camp even though they knew they were giving it to someone else.

But was the list binding? Clearly not.
Again, even in this gonzo imaginary scenario you've concocted, it still is. If Bob lies to Fred and let's Sam take his camp, that absolutely is not allowed (again read the GM quote I posted above). Fred could petition and the GMs would (again, all else being equal) side with him.

Doesn't work if they log out/go link dead. It'll be FTE.
Once again, you're concocting these strange arbitrary 0.01% chance scenarios and using them as some sort of justification for why the rules don't apply. Again, I GRANT that if the list holder happens to go link dead right after they kill the mob, but before they have a chance to tell the next person on the list, AND someone else is sitting their on the spawn point, notices what happens, and decides to be a jerk, they CAN take the spawn.

But nothing in my previous paragraph translates to "lists aren't really binding on P99". Not even close.

P.S. This is quickly becoming a pointless flame war. I've already more than clarified what the actual server rules are, and provided evidence supporting my position. Go ahead and get the last word in if you want, but I'm going to bow out now and let others chime in (if that's even necessary).

[DMN]

So all this insanity is revolving around a case where player #1 deliberately lies to player #2 (despite having absolutely no incentive to do so, and despite it clearly being against the rules) and gives a camp to player #3? Do you even play on P99? Has such a situation ever even happened to you? I've been here over half a decade, and not once have I ever had any player dispute regarding lists whatsoever, let alone a dispute where someone told me I could have a camp even though they knew they were giving it to someone else.

Wow, so 1 is a valid sample size to you?


Again, even in this gonzo imaginary scenario you've concocted, it still is. If Bob lies to Fred and let's Sam take his camp, that absolutely is not allowed (again read the GM quote I posted above). Fred could petition and the GMs would (again, all else being equal) side with him.

How's fred going to know he's been fucked over by Bob? Whooops my cable went out. Whoops my house was burning down. Whoops timmy fell down the well...agaiin

Once again, you're connecting these strange arbitrary 0.01% chance scenarios and using them as some sort of justification for why the rules don't apply. Again, I GRANT that if the list holder happens to go link dead right after they kill the mob, but before they have a chance to tell the next person on the list, AND someone else is sitting their on the spawn point, notices what happens, and decides to be a jerk, they CAN take the spawn.

But nothing in my previous paragraph translates to "lists aren't really binding on P99". Not even close.

P.S. This is quickly becoming a pointless flame war. I've already more than clarified what the actual server rules are, and provided evidence supporting my position. Go ahead and get the last word in if you want, but I'm going to bow out now and let others chime in (if that's even necessary).

Yo, is the book up?