I want to level in groups as a Wizard [Archive]

commongood

02-05-2019, 07:05 AM

This particular game on this particular server is, to a large extent, about nostalgia. And if you really enjoy the nostalgia boost of playing your wizard then do it. You can still get groups. You will likely occasionally run into min/max'ers that gun hard for optimized play and will argue that your class won't contribute as much as the rogue that's also LFG even though you were there first.

But you should be aware that EverQuest in Velious was not very well balanced in regards to the classes. Wizards definitely has somewhat the short end of the stick in some areas. And the grind to 60 is long and hard so maybe ask yourself if your nostalgia is enough to choose wizard over another class that might offer more.

Solist

02-05-2019, 07:08 AM

You bring 5 things to groups in order of usefulness in XP.
CC+snare
Interrupts
High Aggro
Eye pulls+bind sight tracking around+general awareness
Evac.

Damage is not a wizard's job, you're literally the worst class in the game at it, a meleeing cleric is more DPS at all levels. So learn to be real good at the others with your rather OP click aggro stick, roots, stuns etc.

Of those things you bring to the group, other classes bring the equivelant and more. So, make friends, and be solid at making your presence useful.

E-Queue

02-05-2019, 10:50 AM

You'd probably have more success grouping with Auld Lang Syne members. A major problem for wizards on P99 is the huge number of dirt cheap weapons with great ratios available in the EC tunnel. Low level melee toons can rock a 1:2 ratio weapon for like 100pp and massively improve their dps output compared to what would have been possible during actual classic EQ. Wizards don't have the same luxury. If you group with ALS, melee will be using a Dragoon Dirk tier weapons at level 25, and you'll be in much better shape!

ScaringChildren

02-05-2019, 11:09 AM

Damage is not a wizard's job, you're literally the worst class in the game at it, a meleeing cleric is more DPS at all levels.

https://imgur.com/dnI6S1j.gif

Balimon

02-05-2019, 05:55 PM

Play wizard if you really enjoy the class! Just understand that finding groups will definitely be more difficult , and you will often be the last pick, a lot of people on this server are way too concerned with min / max to invite a wizard.

While it is true that exp group damage is the wizards weakest point, comparing their DPS to a meleeing cleric is pretty ridiculous. You're still going to contribute to the damage, just not as much as others. Favor your other strengths when needed and make friends, you will get more invites.

If you really prefer to group most of the time, I suggest choosing a group friendly class as your first character. You can play a wizard solo whenever you like, there's no need to be frustrated while doing so. All that said, it's a fun class that's not for everyone. Understand that the wizards greatest strengths are for raiding, so if that's what you're planning for, then they may be worth playing.

GnomeCaptain

02-05-2019, 10:32 PM

Might be worth noting: at higher levels you are one of the very few classes that can participate in an AE group.

Quizlop

02-05-2019, 11:01 PM

Might be worth noting: at higher levels you are one of the very few classes that can participate in an AE group.

They still do those?

Solist

02-05-2019, 11:07 PM

While it is true that exp group damage is the wizards weakest point, comparing their DPS to a meleeing cleric is pretty ridiculous. You're still going to contribute to the damage, just not as much as others.
.

Do the math, m8.

Foxplay

02-05-2019, 11:40 PM

Good luck

beargryllz

02-05-2019, 11:42 PM

Raev

02-06-2019, 12:38 AM

I would argue that a Wizard's best grouping ability is the simple port. You can send tells and form up a group of LFGs from wherever and take them to an out of the way zone like Droga or Splitpaw. With 1700 players on at peak times getting out of the popular zones is critical. Unfortunately a) people are sheep and don't like leaving their comfort zones b) adding a Wizard to the group slows things down substantially c) there aren't that many empty 50+ xp zones.

Wizards are simply weak in Velious (with the exception of Bane encounters). As Motec points out, they are supposed to be a DPS class, and yet they do half as much sustained damage as a Paladin. Really, all of the nuking classes are weak in Velious, and this began to turn around in Luclin with huge mana regen (Spiritual Purity, AA KEI lasting for hours, more/easier FT, horses), nuke criticals, focus items, and eventually more burst fights in Planes of Power. The lack of caster itemization makes things even worse; every 50+ wizard must compete with an epic rogue or monk. The more you try to play around nukes in Velious Era the worse you will be; hence Motec's recommendation to use the stuns and crowd control spells, which is probably correct but takes you to the level of the worst enchanter ever.

Note: 90% of this is fixed if you can acquire a Xygoz/Velketor clicky robe. But as a new player you don't have that option.

AegnorP99

02-06-2019, 12:15 PM

I think Raev explained it pretty well. Wizard itemization is just atrocious in this era. Melee toons can just upgrade weapons or worn haste and increase their dps commensurately. Wizards can just increase total mana. This is great for quadding and for burning down raid mobs, but it doesn't do a dang thing for casual group encounters. A good clicky robe will absolutely turn this around and make you a perfectly viable group member, but good luck obtaining one before level 60 (and good luck getting invites even with a robe - people don't totally understand the difference it makes).

Basically, wizard is the probably single worst class to roll if you want to group for exp. I don't recommend the class to anyone who isn't interested in raiding, which is where wizards shine. I can think of a dozen minor tweaks that would make wizards viable in the grouping game, but alas, P99 isn't the place for "improvements" over classic EQ.

Crede

02-06-2019, 03:17 PM

Wizard grouping is fine, beware of all the min maxers and trolls on the forums about stuff like this.

If you must group as a wizard, don’t afk all the time giving other good wizards a bad rep, make friends and form groups when you can, utilize the diff spell lines(not just nukes), and try to keep PoTG up as much as possible(seriously, it’s worth it).

I particularly had a blast in the 50s grouping and pairing my rain spells with Tash/Malo. With the right debuffs and circumstances doing nearly 2k dmg for <400 mana was a glorious feeling.

Troxx

02-07-2019, 10:55 AM

https://imgur.com/dnI6S1j.gif

For groups it’s actually true most of the time. Wizards can explode things quickly but the amount of down time required to meditate puts them dead last. Sustained over time in a group that can keep a mob in camp? You can only put out damage as fast as you can meditate the mana back. Level 60 Sunstrike with evocation spec is 4 dmg per mana return.

Sustained at 60 with meditate only: 14 dps
With c2: 21.23 dps
With c2 and potg: 25dps
With c2 potg and 55 bard song: 33.3 dps

Compare to a dedicated dps Druid? Less efficient nuking but thorns is hugely efficient damage per mana. Druid will sustain (not burst) higher than wizards at all levels of play.

Compared to mage/necro? Their summon pets alone will sustain more damage than a fully buffed wizard. Mage in particular is monster sustained dps.

Wizards are a one trick pony that can do some side jobs that many other classes can also do (and do better).

I don’t mind grouping with wizards but they are not a good group dps class. They’re unfortunately the worst.

Crede

02-07-2019, 11:34 AM

For groups it’s actually true most of the time. Wizards can explode things quickly but the amount of down time required to meditate puts them dead last. Sustained over time in a group that can keep a mob in camp? You can only put out damage as fast as you can meditate the mana back. Level 60 Sunstrike with evocation spec is 4 dmg per mana return.

Sustained at 60 with meditate only: 14 dps
With c2: 21.23 dps
With c2 and potg: 25dps
With c2 potg and 55 bard song: 33.3 dps

Compare to a dedicated dps Druid? Less efficient nuking but thorns is hugely efficient damage per mana. Druid will sustain (not burst) higher than wizards at all levels of play.

Compared to mage/necro? Their summon pets alone will sustain more damage than a fully buffed wizard. Mage in particular is monster sustained dps.

Wizards are a one trick pony that can do some side jobs that many other classes can also do (and do better).

I don’t mind grouping with wizards but they are not a good group dps class. They’re unfortunately the worst.

Interesting calculations, although your numbers are off because Wizards also get harvest, and you used sunstrike whereas rain spells are more efficient if you know how/when to use them, the last one with evo spec being 5.3 DPM. Are they down there with pallies as the worst dps group class? Yea pretty much but they're not nearly as garbage as people tend to say. I've saved a good amount of hole groups with evac as well.

Also, OP, if you intend to raid, then at 60 you have a viable raiding class that are key for mobilization with huge bane nukes. If you went mage for more sustained group dps, at 60 you're a coth bot in the raid scene. Plus if you do raid and get the VP robe on a wizard, you're at around 55 manaless dps! More when you throw in occasional nukes. Velks robe is a bit lower but much easier to acquire with moderate raiding.

Every class is good in their own way. Ultimately it comes down to the individual. If you don't suck and understand and know how to play your class, people will notice and welcome you in regardless.

loramin

02-07-2019, 11:57 AM

Let me just attempt to sum up the entire future of this thread:

Some people will point out that objectively Wizards are worse in certain ways (eg. lower sustained DPS than any other "DPS class")

Some people will point out that objectively Wizards aren't that far off from other classes on things like sustained DPS, and have lots of other (objective) advantages

Because it's difficult to be objective, as EQ involves so many more factors than just sustained DPS (and because the vast majority of forum posters haven't played Wizards), way more people than in either A) or B) will go off on completely subjective assessments (mostly negative) about the class

And right there you have Wizards in a nutshell. The reality is that in every era some class has to be "the worst" objectively, because Verant was not Blizzard and they did not do a perfect job on balancing. But at the same time, any class weaknesses (real or perceived) gets amplified tenfold here in the forums, and in reality while Wizards might not be quite as good as other classes in some respects, they aren't nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to be.

Play what you want, join groups, and have fun. You will be offered less groups than other classes, but you will absolutely still be offered groups, and regardless you can absolutely make your own. Moreover if you join a good leveling guild (or a half leveling, half raiding guild like ALS is now) getting groups will be even easier.

P.S. And then someday when Blue gets custom content, quite possibly decades from now, the devs could decide to make up for this era by giving Wizards a quest to earn the Manaburn AA (just as Verant did on live ... well except the quest part), and then all of the Wizards on the server will collectively laugh at everyone else as they form Wizard-only guilds and steal all the phat lewtz on the server for themselves ;)

AegnorP99

02-07-2019, 12:44 PM

Sustained at 60 with meditate only: 14 dps
With c2: 21.23 dps
With c2 and potg: 25dps
With c2 potg and 55 bard song: 33.3 dps

Thanks for crunching the numbers.

I just wanted to add to this by pointing out how these numbers improve with a good clicky robe. The more easily obtained robe from Velketor does 625 damage with a 15 second cast time. This isn't really "free damage" as you miss out on an average of 2.5 med ticks or 50 mana during your cast. Thus, the robe becomes your best nuke with a damage per mana of 625/50 or 12.5 which is more than 3x better than the dpm of Ice Spear of Solist (your best single target nuke). Factoring this in changes things quite a bit. I won't take the time to calculate your potential sustained dps for the scenarios quoted above (you'll still cast real nukes from time to time), but just know that it gets better.

Troxx

02-07-2019, 03:02 PM

Interesting calculations, although your numbers are off because Wizards also get harvest, and you used sunstrike whereas rain spells are more efficient if you know how/when to use them, the last one with evo spec being 5.3 DPM. Are they down there with pallies as the worst dps group class? Yea pretty much but they're not nearly as garbage as people tend to say. I've saved a good amount of hole groups with evac as well.

Rain spells on p99 are beyond broken and thus ultimately useless due to terrible resistance coding.

You are correct that I didn’t factor in harvest but I also didn’t take a few things into account to include:

-my numbers assumed you get every Med tick every time (not going to happen cast time is 7 seconds)
-my numbers assumed you never get a resist (partial or full) — not going to happen
-my numbers assume you never wast dps (1600dmg nuke on a target with 1khp remaining)
-my numbers assume you never fizzle
-my numbers assume you never cast any other spell ever
-my numbers assume you’re level 60 using only the really efficient nuke

So yeah absent a clicky nuke robe the numbers I quoted are a best case scenario that will never happen. Clicky robe comes out to 41.667 dps if chain clicked and never resisted. It definitely helps a ton but still doesn’t close the gap enough unfortunately. It really is a shame that wizards are so ineffective unless hard burning a group named or kunark era low hp raid mob.

On the flip side these numbers also assume you always have mobs in camp. Every moment not spent actively fighting the wizard does accumulate potential dps when other classes aren’t actively meleeing a mob down, but this fact also holds true for wizard class prime competitor Druid and mage.

Troxx

02-07-2019, 03:55 PM

All that aside, wizards do add value to groups.

If I were a wizard I’d keep relevant succor spells up if hunting in dangerous places and keep useful utility spells on standby. For dps try to hover around 50% mana in chain pull or semi-chain pull situations. Keep enough buffer for fast hard burns when needed but also have some room to make that inevitable time productive. Starting a 5 minute group afk with 80% mana is wasted potential.

Jimjam

02-07-2019, 05:55 PM

Be outgoing, make friends and form groups.

If you look at the source material as advice (LOTR, HOBBIT) the best groups were formed by a wizard who took his party to where they needed to go.

ScaringChildren

02-07-2019, 05:56 PM

Can/do druids and wizards duo quad?

Sounds doable.

Jimjam

02-07-2019, 06:01 PM

Yes, but the best group for wizards is an AoE kite bard doing his circle on top of the wizard so the wizard can add in his PBAOE.

In this situation a wizard is by far the best DPS class in the game.

Wallicker

02-07-2019, 06:05 PM

Well until the wizard goes oom and the mobs are still alive -> cleric with donals boots is a bards best friend

Ravager

02-07-2019, 07:36 PM

I played Wizard 1-60 and never really had issues finding a group when I wanted one. Ports give you an advantage only druids share when it comes to finding groups. You can pop into all the hot zones in minutes and spam LFG until you get group ports and when you get group ports you can handcraft your own groups. 1-19 you shouldn't have too much trouble finding groups because most of the time people making groups at those levels just want to fill slots.

AegnorP99

02-08-2019, 12:50 PM

Clicky robe comes out to 41.667 dps if chain clicked and never resisted. It definitely helps a ton but still doesn’t close the gap enough unfortunately. It really is a shame that wizards are so ineffective unless hard burning a group named or kunark era low hp raid mob.

It's true, you'll never reach the dps of a geared monk or rogue, but there's definitely a lot of value in a steady 50-60 dps (assuming decent mana regen, this is easily maintained with clicky robe) that also comes with massive burn potential, root, snare, evac, etc. I'd personally never shy away from inviting a robed-up wizard in any end game group situation, but I'm pretty far from unbiased about this.

I do agree that it's a shame wizards weren't focused on more by the original devs. Druids are basically 95% of a wizard, but they also come with heals, hp regen, mana regen, thorns, animal charm, etc. Mages have 95% of a wizard's firepower plus extremely powerful pets, though they at least lost out on root, snare, and ports which are kinda huge.

It would have only taken a few minor changes to make wizards more viable, such as more clicky nukes at all levels, good self-only mana regen (or hell just give them the clarity line instead of enchanters), improved damage to mana ratios, upgrading O'Keils radiation to be in line with mage DS, etc.

All the negativity aside, I do think it's a fun class especially if you're interested in raiding. A quad-kiting wizard can level to 60 with less screen time than pretty much any other class (just do housework during med breaks). Being able to quickly and easily get anywhere in Norrath is awesome and also provides for great income potential. If you find the right people to group with, I think you'll be okay, OP. This server isn't going anywhere and achieving maximum efficiency while leveling won't necessarily be everyone's priority.

Crede

02-08-2019, 01:00 PM

good self-only mana regen (or hell just give them the clarity line instead of enchanters)

Great point, I've often wondered this myself. Wizards should have had the Clarity line, and left Enchanters with ToT. Having c2 and ToT is broke AF. Would have made wizards 10x more desirable in groups.

Also, would have liked to see spell crits before Luclin. They eventually got it right, but to give a war melee crits, ranger bow crits, and a wizard no spell crits was just dumb.

All the negativity aside, I do think it's a fun class especially if you're interested in raiding. A quad-kiting wizard can level to 60 with less screen time than pretty much any other class (just do housework during med breaks). Being able to quickly and easily get anywhere in Norrath is awesome and also provides for great income potential. If you find the right people to group with, I think you'll be okay, OP. This server isn't going anywhere and achieving maximum efficiency while leveling won't necessarily be everyone's priority.

Good point, and quadding was much more satisfying on my wizard then druid. Flux stuff & AE snare ftw.

Troxx

02-08-2019, 01:10 PM

DMN

02-08-2019, 01:32 PM

Enchanters have clarity, necros have lich/battery, mages have mod rods. How about wizard can summon a familiar that's very low level but gives only the wizard a bard-like effect of mana song that would stack with clarity.

I would have also given druids torpor. Shaman can already massive slow + heal and can have haste up to offset torpor, and cleric has uber heals. Druid, the third priest does what to make up the difference? Makes matters even worse when shaman already have a hp to mana conversion line. The devs were drunk or something when they gave that to shamans.

branamil

02-08-2019, 01:36 PM

Apparently wizards were supposed to get an anti-gating spell to cast on mobs. Would have made them more desirable if the push interrupt changes ever go through.

Legidias

02-08-2019, 02:24 PM

Anti gate was an AA i believe so it wouldn't be on p99.

Crede

02-08-2019, 03:25 PM

I was always a proponent of giving wizards a line of low damage but high efficiency nukes; nukes that were impractical for burning (dmg per cast was too low to burn effectively) but allowed them to sustain 50-60 dps by level 60 consistently by chain casting them. More or less having a VP or Velks robe built into their spellbook.

Ideally wizards should have reasonable sustained dmg output with big burst potential.

I think they had the right idea with rain spells, but they didn't make them efficient enough and of course the resist problem. And maybe make the rain waives hit a bit slower to allow the wizard more medding time. They gave mages a "DoT" nuke, not sure why they didn't expand on this for wizards.

Legidias

02-08-2019, 03:55 PM

There was another thread like a year ago about discussing what *theoretical* changes could have been made to 'fix' classes.

The one that still stands out, from balance PoV and not game or class lore, was the idea that wizards should've been the one with clarity line and not enchanters. But oh well.

stebbins99

02-08-2019, 04:04 PM

As you level up your wizard, you'll only become more and more portable (especially if you're a gnome, heh!). Thus, if you make some friends along the way leveling up, you should have no issues *travelling to them* once you get your port spells.

My buddy rolled a wizard, here's what frequently happens when we group:
I'm online hunting something, he signs on and sees that I'm in zone X. He ports to the closest spire and joins me within a few minutes at most (usually)

or

I sign on and see my wizard buddy killing something. He would prefer to duo and either a) comes to me and hunts whatever is near me or b) comes and scoops me up and we hunt crap together somewhere else.

Another nice aspect about this approach-- especially with the server population being so busy lately-- is that a wizard can quickly escort a group from hunting spot to hunting spot with little downtime. For instance, if you had planned to hunt spectres but get to the camp and see that it's booked, you can easily port somewhere else without having to trudge along on foot. Safe, fast, convenient.

TLDR - I believe that wizards can help to offset "DPS deficiencies" by decreasing downtime, travel time, and helping to avoid pesky deaths via travelling on-foot