Buff Lines Page Done

[loramin]

It cost me a piece of my mind (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316194), but I have managed to complete wiki's newest page: Buff Lines (http://wiki.project1999.com/Buff_Lines). Although "complete" is a bit generous: there's still a lot of item-based buffs missing. The important thing is that it now contains all player-based buffs (plus a healthy amount of items), so I'm stepping away from it.

There are instructions at the top of the page, but basically it can answer all of your questions about what stacks with what, how you can max ___ stat, or which Plane of Mischief flower is best for raiders (hint: it's not the Blue/Magic one). It also has some nifty filtering checkboxes so that you can see only Druid buffs (or only procs, or only Druid/Wizard/Shaman buffs and procs, or ...)

Enjoy, and as always if you see anything wrong, fix it your damn self! It's a wiki ;) (But failing that, PM me or post back here.)

[ScaringChildren]

You missed some

[Balimon]

Impressive sir.

[bigjeff100]

Nicely done Loramin!

[d3r14k]

Nice work, Loramin. Your dedication to keeping and improving the wiki has always been top tier.

This bit made me laugh:

Although "complete" is a bit generous

I pictured the "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner on a navy carrier for some reason.

[loramin]

Nice work, Loramin. Your dedication to keeping and improving the wiki has always been top tier.

This bit made me laugh:



I pictured the "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner on a navy carrier for some reason.

:D

Originally I thought this page would be fairly quick to put together, but then it grew into a major project. By the time I finished getting every last spell added, plus every potion, and a lot of other items ... along with a "maximums" table for every stat ... I realized that I just didn't have it in me to add the remaining items.

But even if it didn't have any items at all, just having all of the spells makes it a very useful page, so I'm ok with declaring it "accomplished".

[yzarCritS]

Beautiful work my man. Appreciate the effort!

[indiscriminate_hater]

Wow A+

[radbeard]

thanks! looks great.

[Whoop]

Holy sh!t - just amazing

[Muggens]

Great work, thanks !

[Eveready]

Thanks a lot for the time and effort that went into this!

[Rygar]

Does a single bard song really grant +196 MR with puretone and max instrument modifier? Surprised the isn't a cap on some things.

[Legidias]

Does a single bard song really grant +196 MR with puretone and max instrument modifier? Surprised the isn't a cap on some things.

Puretone increases songs by 2.8 (the max value for song modifiers).

At 60, specific resist songs give +70 base, which times 2.8 = 196.

But bard discs have looooong ass cooldowns (over an hour).

The specific resist songs are all singing based, which the only natural modifier is the bard epic which is also one of the toughest epics to get. Without epic, its better to sing a combo song using percussion. It balances out.


(I will mention though that HP regen section is not correct since bards can give at least +50 hp regen with just 2 songs by themselves.)

[ScottBerta]

/clap

[loramin]

(I will mention though that HP regen section is not correct since bards can give at least +50 hp regen with just 2 songs by themselves.)

Unfortunately the Bard page on the wiki doesn't explain the instrument bonus well, so I had to rely on a forum post (one which of course I can't find now). I'm pretty sure it said that haste, regen, and mana regen (and maybe one other thing?) wasn't affected by the instrument bonus.

Is that wrong? Should HP regen be affected?

[Legidias]

Haste is not, but HP regen definitely is.

I wasn't referring to the instrument bonus though, I meant that hymn of restoration stacks with niv's to grant >50hp / tick regen via just bardsong. (Realistically, at 60 you would be using cantana of replenishment but it has 1 less base hp regen at 60 compared to hymn).

The hp/mana regen songs are a bit complicated. The HP is effected by instrument but the mana regen is not. However, the pure mana songs that are singing based are supposed to be increase via epic / puretone, but IIRC its not working right in p99 or something. Its a debated topic.

(Also, for mana regen, you have the 34 bard song listed instead of the 55 one which has double the mana regen. For max mana regen, bards would sing 1 mana regen + 2 or 3 mana pulse for max. If you want to look at pure 1 tick counts, one cantana + 1 chorus will give +20 mana regen without any instrument bonus. It gets more complicated a calculation as you add in 2 or 3 pulses of chorus and epic/disc modifier.)

It might sound like I'm criticizing the page but I'm not. It must have taken a lot of effort to set the page up and I'm just nitpicking a few things on it that are probably outside your area of expertise. I audit SOP's IRL so its just something I do to look at these types of things. I'm still too lazy to edit it myself lol.

The haste section is also bit off. Jonathan's whistling warsong is not V2 haste (like ervaj songs) and will not stack with enchanter haste (its V1).

The DS is also a bit off. You list +22 in the bottom section but the table above uses +8 value for McVaxius' Rousing Rondo.

ATK section also needs bard epic (+30atk)

Similarly, STR benefits from bard epic and song of the deep seas proc (which is also AC and AGI).

[bricke75]

Impressive! Nice work!

[Heebs13]

I think you have an error in your buff lines: major shielding from the Stave of Shielding does not seem to stack with FoS. It also will not stack with Yaulp IV.

[loramin]

I think you have an error in your buff lines: major shielding from the Stave of Shielding does not seem to stack with FoS. It also will not stack with Yaulp IV.

Great catch on the Focus/Shielding stacking, thank you! I've fixed that in the page.

The Yaulp IV thing is ... interesting. Lucy (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=65&source=Live) agrees with you 100% about FoS and Stave not stacking, but not about Yaulp IV (if you follow the link you'll see that no versions of Yaulp are listed, and similarly Major Shielding isn't listed on the Yaulp IV page (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=1534&source=Live)).

It's possible Yaulp IV didn't stack in classic, and SoE later changed it to stack, but that seems unlikely. So if the two don't stack here but they do on Lucy, there's a decent chance it's a mistake. I'll file a bug on it: if the devs have classic evidence to the contrary I'll fix the page to indicate that Yaulp IV doesn't stack, but maybe this will turn out to be a classic fix.

But before I file a bug I just want to double-check: are you 100% certain Yaulp IV and Major Shielding don't stack (don't want to waste dev time)?

[Vizax_Xaziv]

I think you have an error in your buff lines: major shielding from the Stave of Shielding does not seem to stack with FoS. It also will not stack with Yaulp IV.

If memory serves FOS indeed does NOT stack w/ the Mage "Shielding" line of spells, but I'm fairly certain it should have no problem stacking w/ the Yaulp line....

[loramin]

Haste is not, but HP regen definitely is.

Cool; this was actually correct in the page, I was just confused.

I wasn't referring to the instrument bonus though, I meant that hymn of restoration stacks with niv's to grant >50hp / tick regen via just bardsong. (Realistically, at 60 you would be using cantana of replenishment but it has 1 less base hp regen at 60 compared to hymn).

Awesome; Lucy 100% agrees that they stack (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=7&source=Live), so this was just a goof on my part (which I've fixed)

The hp/mana regen songs are a bit complicated. The HP is effected by instrument but the mana regen is not. However, the pure mana songs that are singing based are supposed to be increase via epic / puretone, but IIRC its not working right in p99 or something. Its a debated topic.

I will leave this between the Bard community and the devs, but I'll happily update the page if I see a patch note about it.

(Also, for mana regen, you have the 34 bard song listed instead of the 55 one which has double the mana regen. For max mana regen, bards would sing 1 mana regen + 2 or 3 mana pulse for max. If you want to look at pure 1 tick counts, one cantana + 1 chorus will give +20 mana regen without any instrument bonus. It gets more complicated a calculation as you add in 2 or 3 pulses of chorus and epic/disc modifier.)

I'm not sure how but I somehow completely missed Cantata of Replenishment. Fixed.

Incidentally the song was misspelled on the Bard page as "Cantana of Replenishment", so I fixed it; there's my contribution to the Bard community ;)

The haste section is also bit off. Jonathan's whistling warsong is not V2 haste (like ervaj songs) and will not stack with enchanter haste (its V1).

Lucy actually disagrees with you (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=734&source=Live) on this; according to it Jonathan's Whistling Warsong stacks with every other haste except the ones that give AC (eg. Augmentation). So, there's three possibilities: A) SoE changed the stacking on live after the classic era, B) SoE didn't change anything and the devs got the stacking wrong here, or C) you're mistaken.

I really doubt it's C), but just to be safe (before I file a bug and potentially waste dev time) can you please confirm that you've tested that Jonathan's Whistling Warsong and a non-AC granting haste (eg. Celerity or Visions of Grandeur) don't stack?

The DS is also a bit off. You list +22 in the bottom section but the table above uses +8 value for McVaxius' Rousing Rondo.
Fixed

ATK section also needs bard epic (+30atk)
Fixed (and added to the Haste and Strength sections too). This really helped up all the maximums, since the bard epic stacks with everything.

Similarly, STR benefits from bard epic and song of the deep seas proc (which is also AC and AGI).
Added Song of the Deep Seas to AC, Str, Agi and Haste. However, I ran into another disagreement between P99 and Lucy; according to Lucy the haste (well, and the other stats) of Song of the Deep Seas stacks with everything (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=1973&source=Live) except a couple of buffs that don't exist yet (and three different types of rez sickness).

So again, either P99 or Lucy is probably wrong, not you, but just to be safe can you please confirm that you proc-ed Song of the Deep Seas, then had someone try to cast a haste spell on you, and it didn't stack?

It might sound like I'm criticizing the page but I'm not. It must have taken a lot of effort to set the page up and I'm just nitpicking a few things on it that are probably outside your area of expertise. I audit SOP's IRL so its just something I do to look at these types of things. I'm still too lazy to edit it myself lol.

Thank you! I am not a bard player (I love the class but my wrists just can't take that kind of punishment), so I'm definitely outside my area of expertise on them. This makes me immensely appreciative of of your feedback. I take it as: it's 100% helpful suggestions, 0% criticism.

[Muggens]

If memory serves FOS indeed does NOT stack w/ the Mage "Shielding" line of spells, but I'm fairly certain it should have no problem stacking w/ the Yaulp line....

Correct, shielding does not stack with FoS

[Trzzle]

Warsong is not V2. Even your Lucy link says that. The buff stacks in that you receive the AC and STR, the hastes do not stack.

Erjav: Increase Haste v2 by 10%
vs
Warsong: Increase Attack Speed by 15% (L7) to 40% (L41)

Good list there's just a bunch of stacking errors it looks like. Strength of Nature (ATK) is missing, it overwrites Grim Aura line buffs.

[Legidias]

Unlike other class buffs, even if part or all of a bard song doesn't stack with another buff, it will still land (won't stack with other bard songs though). That's why it can get confusing.

I have not proc'd song of the deep seas myself, but have had it proc'd on me. I honestly can't say for certain aboiut testing it in game, but I doubt a 60% haste would stack with all other hastes.

Similarly with warsong, even the lvl 60 song which requires instrument to play only increases V2 haste by 10%, whereas the listed amount for warsong is like 25%.

Warsong and deep seas buffs are mainly beneficial in the stat boost rather than the haste.

I feel like 99% of the p99 population (bard or otherwise) would probably agree those hastes don't stack.

[loramin]

Unlike other class buffs, even if part or all of a bard song doesn't stack with another buff, it will still land (won't stack with other bard songs though). That's why it can get confusing.

Every other buff on the page (and in EQ in general) is nice and simple: if it's listed on another buff's Lucy's stacking page, then it doesn't stack with that buff ... and otherwise it does. But no, you bards have to make things difficult :p

Sorry about the confusion, but I think I get it now, and I'll get the bard haste section cleaned up.

Strength of Nature (ATK) is missing, it overwrites Grim Aura line buffs.

I'll add Strength of Nature later too (would do it now but I have guests inc).

Thank you both for taking the time to help me understand your strange Bardic world ;)

[Heebs13]

Great catch on the Focus/Shielding stacking, thank you! I've fixed that in the page.

The Yaulp IV thing is ... interesting. Lucy (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=65&source=Live) agrees with you 100% about FoS and Stave not stacking, but not about Yaulp IV (if you follow the link you'll see that no versions of Yaulp are listed, and similarly Major Shielding isn't listed on the Yaulp IV page (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=1534&source=Live)).

It's possible Yaulp IV didn't stack in classic, and SoE later changed it to stack, but that seems unlikely. So if the two don't stack here but they do on Lucy, there's a decent chance it's a mistake. I'll file a bug on it: if the devs have classic evidence to the contrary I'll fix the page to indicate that Yaulp IV doesn't stack, but maybe this will turn out to be a classic fix.

But before I file a bug I just want to double-check: are you 100% certain Yaulp IV and Major Shielding don't stack (don't want to waste dev time)?

I am absolutely certain that Yaulp IV and Major Shielding do not stack.

[Sun Feb 03 09:08:56 2019] You begin casting Yaulp IV.
[Sun Feb 03 09:08:56 2019] Your spell did not take hold.
[Sun Feb 03 09:09:26 2019] Your shielding fades.
[Sun Feb 03 09:09:27 2019] You begin casting Yaulp IV.
[Sun Feb 03 09:09:28 2019] You feel a surge of strength as you let forth a mighty yaulp.

[Wonkie]

coldain ring 8 and 9 buff shield of the eighth

[Raev]

Does a single bard song really grant +196 MR with puretone and max instrument modifier? Surprised the isn't a cap on some things.

There is a cap on overall MR, which most raid geared players can achieve with flowers and potions. Bards are actually really weak here in comparison to TAKP, where a puretone bard sends you to 500 and makes you immune to most AEs in Kunark.

[applesauce25r624]

missing bard song Cassindra's Elegy

[loramin]

It took awhile but the Buff Lines page is now all caught up with everything everyone has mentioned here. Thanks for the feedback all, and if you see anything else please let me know!

[Immok]

How does clicky Aura of Battle (on items like Fearsome Shield or Pauldrons of Ferocity) stack with other spells?

[loramin]

How does clicky Aura of Battle (on items like Fearsome Shield or Pauldrons of Ferocity) stack with other spells?

I am not an expert on this at all, but my understanding (largely based on Lucy data) is that multiple Aura of Battle effects don't stack, even if one comes from a worn source (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1499&source=Live) and one comes from a click (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=1327&source=Live).

I thought I remember reading that there was evidence that multiple Aura of Battle effects (whatever their source) should stack in this era, and that fits my own (flawed) memory of classic because I remember wanting to get the Spirit Wracked Cord and another AoB item, with the belief that I'd get 4 HP/tick regen ... but either the devs didn't agree with that evidence or they haven't gotten around to making the change yet.

So at this point I've updated the Buff Lines page to reflect the above: AoB doesn't stack with itself under any circumstances, and also doesn't stack with the wolf illusions or avatar/primal essence spells. But if anyone knows better please speak up.

[Erati]

AoB worn/buff will stack the +Attack but the Regen on p99 does not stack (it should stack however but it currently does not)

Also the +Attack on all worn AoB items also stacks

[Nevasleep]

Great Job!!
I really appreciate the time you took to put this together Loramin.

[7thGate]

I like it! I've done a fair amount of independent research on buff stacking, so I knew almost all of this already, but it is nice to see it laid out like this in one place.

I believe the Shade, Protection and Aego are all on the same line for AC, since they all use slot 4. Let me see, I did a stacking spreadsheet at one point with some buffs based on the spell effects.dat file, what did I have in there....

AC=1 HP=69 STR
1442 Protection of the Glades 1 69 79 15 148 148 24 470
1537 Bulwark of Faith 10 10 10 1 254 254 37
Yaulp II 4 1 9 20
1462 Call of Earth 10 59 1 254 254 254 25

Didn't format great here, but basically I think it was Slot 1: POTG, Slot 2: Empty, Slot 3: Call of Earth, Slot 4:Bulwark of Faith for max AC on non-bard, targetable buffs.

One thing I really need to nail down are all of the incidental stacking dependency issues. For example, VoG and SoS block Null Aura, and Focus of Spirit blocks Aura of Purity, which is listed on their wiki pages now but it would be nice to have some sort of way to see what blocks what. I also need to figure out if ATK buffs in slot 3 stack with Ragebringer or not, I did a test on that once but forget the result.

[azeth]

Loramin I used this page yesterday and it was very helpful. Great job.

[Cylock]

Looks very nice Loramin

[d3r14k]

Loramin, can you please post this on the other guy's wiki on MMORPGTips.com? It would be more pleasing to the eye if it were on that si.....ooooh I'm just kidding.

Great work as always, mate. I used this the other day on my shaman. Almost got all the best spells figured out, but this guide fills in the holes in my knowledge.

[Tethler]

Wow, awesome Loramin!