Does a fungi "fix" Barb shamans?

[E-Queue]

I know shaman race questions come up like twice a week, but I didn't find this exact question answered anywhere. Apologies anyway for an annoying topic.

I'm considering rolling up a new shaman for some casual fun (mostly solo, limited grouping, definitely no raids). Everyone agrees Barbarians are the worst shaman race, but I just prefer their fashion over the other possible races. I don't wanna gimp myself by rolling the worst race for the class, but it seems the main Barbarian downside is just the lack of regen. Other than that, they're no worse stat-wise than Trolls/Iksar. So... my question to any shaman vets out there is if I am able to twink the toon with a fungi, does that pretty much completely negate the Barbarian gimpy-ness? Or am I still going to regret not being able to stack fungi regen with racial regen?

[Duckwalk]

The top solo shaman is a barb so no you’re not going to gimp yourself.

Barb shaman have plenty of benefits, the level faster and have less faction issues. At 60 with torpor you’re not going to be worrying too much about some extra regen although it will still help. You can’t go wrong putting a fungi on your shaman, you’ll literally be able to melee through the low/mid levels and it will still find use at 60 depending on the situation.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter, play what you like. If I could change it would only be so that my guardian robe was visible.

[E-Queue]

Thanks for the reply.

It took a few weeks for my new forum account to get posting privileges (volunteer staff is doing a great job - no complaints!), so I ended up rolling a Barb shaman a couple weeks ago. Fungi has trivialized everything through level 19, so I have no regrets! At least not yet. :)

[ScaringChildren]

Racial regen is really only good at 51+, by then you'll be a powerhouse anyway. The only time you'll really miss out compared to a regen Shaman is when you're 60 and don't have Torp yet.

[Tecmos Deception]

Thanks for the reply.

It took a few weeks for my new forum account to get posting privileges (volunteer staff is doing a great job - no complaints!), so I ended up rolling a Barb shaman a couple weeks ago. Fungi has trivialized everything through level 19, so I have no regrets! At least not yet. :)

You'll be fine. But here's a way of looking at whether the regen is significant or not: you're loving how strong a fungi is, right? Well, iksar/troll regen is an extra half fungi at 60. Does it make or break a shaman? Sometimes. Is it worth it if you'll hate your character? Most likely not.

[loramin]

Everyone agrees Barbarians are the worst shaman race

No, everyone does not agree with that (sorry, my Barbarian Shaman main takes offense at that). What everyone agrees is that Barbarians are the worst Shaman race, by a small margin, IF you put in enough time. That's a huge difference. Many (most?) players will never even make it 60 with their Shaman before they quit the server, quit EQ, or switch to an alt, and for all of them the established advice that Barbarians are the worst is 100% wrong.

Barbarians get two advantages that are HUGE, and make them the best Shaman race < 60: good faction and the lowest XP penalty. Both of those let them level faster: the low XP penalty is obvious, but the good faction means you can run to a friendly city, run back to an XPing spot, and get back to earning XP much faster than the Shaman who has to run much farther (or else that Shaman will be much broker than you; either way you have a clear advantage).

Having more levels makes you significantly more powerful than a lower-level Shaman, no matter what your respective races are, and up until they hit 60 a Barbarian Shaman (all else being equal) will be levels ahead of all other Shaman races. Again, that's huge.

Now, Iksar/Trolls get regen, and that's pretty cool for leveling too. It does not make you level fast enough to make up for the higher XP penalty, but it comes close, and it means less downtime. In other words, you might take a little longer than the Barbarian to get to 60, but you get to spend more time playing and less time sitting on your ass. Meanwhile Ogres pretty much just suck (by comparison; they don't really suck) until 60, because while their frontal stun immunity isn't useless when leveling, it almost is compared to regen or a lower XP penalty (although to be fair their XP penalty of 15% isn't quite as bad as the Iksar/Troll 20%).

It's only once you get to 60 (and fix all the factions you care about) that Barbarians become the worst race and Ogres become the best. But at that point the differences between races are much smaller. Yes a level 60 Iksar/Troll Shaman will always regenerate faster than a Barbarian ... but once you get Torpor I can guarantee you won't ever notice the difference. Similarly FSI is cool, but only really for soloing especially hard mobs, and even then it's far from a game-changer: there is not a single mob in the game that an Ogre Shaman can take that a Shaman of another race can't. There's not even a mob that Ogre's have a 4x, 3x, or even 2x better chance of defeating: FSI only gives like a 10% increase in success rate (I made that number up, but I'm sure the actual number is somewhere in that neighborhood).

/rant off

So... my question to any shaman vets out there is if I am able to twink the toon with a fungi, does that pretty much completely negate the Barbarian gimpy-ness?

No, it does not, because Barbarians are not gimpy :D More importantly, Iksar/Troll regen is never a Fungi's worth of regen more than Barbarians/Ogres. As the charts on the wiki show, for the bulk of your leveling (20-49) a Barbarian/Ogre regens 2 HP/tick while sitting, while an Iksar/Troll regenerates 6 HP, a difference of 4 HP/tick. Things get better at the high levels, but the difference never reaches Fungi (15 HP/tick) levels.

Again, when leveling what's more important is the Iksar/Troll 20% XP penalty, vs. the Barbarian 5%. If a Barb plays for 105 hours, a Troll has to play for 15 more to catch up. As great as their regen is, and as much time as it will save, those 4 extra HP a tick (40 a minute, 240 an hour, 2,400 HP over 100 hours) are probably not going to save them 15 hours of playtime. Oh, and all that assumes no death: the more times you die the bigger of a deal the lower Barbarian penalty becomes.

Quite honestly in my opinion before 60 Barbarian is the best race. But it's hard to measure exactly how much time the regen saves, and even if it's less than the Barbarian lower penalty saves, there's still something to be said for having to sit on your ass less. Plus non-Barbarians can choose to never fix any factions, only camp places close to evil vendors, and not "lose to Barbarians" that way, so if you play them right an Iksar/Troll should get to 60 almost as fast as a Barbarian, and maybe even have more fun doing it.

But I think what you're really wondering about is the long fun, ie. level 60 ...

Or am I still going to regret not being able to stack fungi regen with racial regen?

Almost certainly not. See everything above for 1 to 59. Then at 60 you get this spell called Torpor, which is a heal over time. It only costs 200 mana to cast, and you can get that mana back with a couple casts of Cannibalize IV ... but Torpor heals way more HP than Cannibalize takes away, which means every Cannibalize IV you cast after the first two or three is "free mana". When you combine "free mana" with a spell that can heal you from 1 HP to max in only 1-2 casts (at only 200 mana per cast), suddenly the miniscule amount of HP that racial regen gives (or even the 15 HP/tick that the Fungi gives) really stops mattering.


TLDR; You're wrong about Barbarians: they're (arguably, because of the whole "more sitting on their ass vs. Iksar/Troll" thing) the best race until 60. At 60 Ogres are, but the difference between races from 1-59 is much bigger than the differences at 60. Thus, Barbarians don't need to feel "behind" any race until 60, and even then they should only feel slightly behind Ogres. They should never feel "behind" Iksar/Trolls, because their XP penalty > regen when it comes to saving time ... but there's a difference in playstyles between the two so it's not really that Barbs are better so much as all three races are good and the differences are very small.

Well, iksar/troll regen is an extra half fungi at 60.

Not quite, but you're close. Iksar/Troll regen at 60 = 18 (sitting) vs. Barb/Ogre regen at 60 = 6 (sitting), for a difference of 12 HP/tick. A whole fungi is a bit more (15 HP/tick), while half of one (7.5) is a fair bit less than the 12 HP/tick difference. But the real answer here is none of it matters once you get Torpor :D

[Maschenny]

If you feel like Loramin is compensating for something, just know that he chose Barbarian. :rolleyes:

[aaezil]

Fungi will make like 20x more difference than race choice. Fungi changes the eary game drastically.

[commongood]

I chose a barbarian due to fashion and faction mainly. It was also my first char on P99 and when I played on live way back when it was on Tallon Zek where you were either a "lighty" or a "darky" and I was always a lighty so just defaulted to that. Didn't know about exp-penalties. Might have been surface-level like aware of a racial regen bonus for iksars. Didn't remember the FSI thing.

Do I regret it now, at 60? Hmm, occasionally the min/maxer in me speaks up and I do wish I had chosen ogre for the FSI. But then I'm immediately reminded of how ugly I find the ogre (and troll) models to be in EQ. And Iksar can't wear jbb - an item I found invaluable for leveling from 46-60 basically.

As mentioned, once you get to scribe Torpor regen almost stops mattering entirely. For instance I never buff myself with Regrowth when doing whatever because having Torpor has made me lazy. It almost doesn't matter. FSI would matter but it's not like an ogre can shaman can solo something a barb shaman can't. I solo quite a bit of stuff and it's extremely rare (read: almost never) that I die thinking "if I'd had FSI there, I would have lived". Will it happen? Sure, but very, very rarely in my experience and a lot of the time it's about managing an encounter and you can avoid getting to a point where it will kill you. At that point it's merely annoying getting stunned at like 60% hp while casting a spell. You're not in risk of dying but you have to start casting that spell again.

While leveling from like level 1-50 I'd say having fungi practically makes it insignificant if your race is iksar, troll or barbarian. The racial regen is puny until 50+. As someone else already pointed out it's a difference of like 4hp per tick. When both chars are wearing fungi that doesn't make a big difference.

[Jimjam]

A shaman is a shaman.

Racial differences are grossly overstated. Even with snare necklace I got bored of my troll shaman in the teens. My barbarian shaman rocketed ahead, making thousands of pp by thirty XPing on permafrost goblins and everfrost mammoths. Did you know there are level 24 mammoths in everfrost and level 24 wolves in permafrost? They make ferocious pets once you hit level 29.

We've not even touched on the greatest aspect of the barbarian yet; he gets to morph in to an icebear! Superior in every way to the poopbears of the other races.

[Solist]

Play what you want to look at.

Nothing else matters.

[Tortok]

Play what you like. The difference is not that big, especially not at 60 with Torpor.
I wouldn't want to miss out on Troll regen or snare neck while levelling since it is simply more fun even if it takes longer cause of exp penalty.
Had to play Barbarian on live cause of team pvp and survived that too, but I like my Troll more. It all comes down to personal preference imo.

[E-Queue]

Thanks for the great responses all!

I did try rolling up a troll shaman initially, and couldn't even get him out of Grobb before deleting him. Their character models and run animations just don't appeal to me (same with ogres). Iksar look okay (2h swings animations and boring armor notwithstanding), but all my favorite zones are on Antonica and their faction issues are a problem for me.

So, I think fashion/faction concerns forced my hand toward Barbarian regardless of any end game pros or cons. Based on your replies (especially Loramin, A+ post), I'm feeling a lot better about my end game prospects. I'll rock this bear skin helmet with pride.

Cheers!

[Jimjam]

Look in the technical section of the forum, there is a fix for iksar 2hs/bow animations.

[Troxx]

Fungi helps mitigate the difference but fungi can be used on ANY race so it's a moot point.

At 60 with torpor; it matters not. Some of the best shaman solos on this server were barbarians. Torpor changes everything.

Prior to 60 AND torpor, it's pretty huge.

[ScaringChildren]

Play what you want to look at.

DAT CRACK...

https://i.imgur.com/9SoO0QT.jpg

[Bardp1999]

The polar bear helmet clearly puts Barbarian shamans #1. If you are a shaman and not wearing a polar bear helmet then I spit in your general direction. If I ever make a shaman it will most certainly be a Barbarian.

I have a 58 SK DE that I have absolutely 0 regrets about making a dark elf because the fashion is 1000x better. The char would already have maxed str and stam if I had rolled one of the big races, but in the end my SK will be just as powerful and much prettier.

[Jimjam]

The polar bear helmet clearly puts Barbarian shamans #1. If you are a shaman and not wearing a polar bear helmet then I spit in your general direction. If I ever make a shaman it will most certainly be a Barbarian.

I have a 58 SK DE that I have absolutely 0 regrets about making a dark elf because the fashion is 1000x better. The char would already have maxed str and stam if I had rolled one of the big races, but in the end my SK will be just as powerful and much prettier.

You know what makes me sad when I roll fat races? How easy it is to get to max stats. Let's face it, most stats are mostly useless most of the time. Despite that, it is fun to raise them. Rolling fatty deprives you of that fun, because as soon as you get shaman buffed you're already maxed, so have fewer stat values left to chase.

[loramin]

Let's face it, most stats are mostly useless most of the time.

Be careful: saying that kind of thing will get you lynched in this forum ;)

[Tecmos Deception]

Not quite, but you're close. Iksar/Troll regen at 60 = 18 (sitting) vs. Barb/Ogre regen at 60 = 6 (sitting), for a difference of 12 HP/tick. A whole fungi is a bit more (15 HP/tick), while half of one (7.5) is a fair bit less than the 12 HP/tick difference. But the real answer here is none of it matters once you get Torpor :D

I looked at the standing number. It was my understanding that 60 shamans only sit if they're lazy or some kind of gaming god who actually catches ticks sitting.

And yes, yes, "it is known, Khaleesi." It wouldnt be a race discussion thread if someone didn't parrot the "common knowledge" about how regen doesn't matter if you have torpor. I'm still waiting to see someone actually explain why this is correct though. As I understand it, a 60 sham isn't going to be sitting at 100% hp hardly ever, especially not on non-trivial content, and therefore that regen is helping most all the time even if the amount pales relative to the healing from torpor.

[loramin]

As I understand it, a 60 sham isn't going to be sitting at 100% hp hardly ever, especially not on non-trivial content, and therefore that regen is helping most all the time even if the amount pales relative to the healing from torpor.

You understand it correctly great sage Tecmos. But the emphasis is definitely on the "the amount pales" part. When you compare the numbers of Torpor and Cannibalize IV to the bonus an Iksar/Troll gets from regen, it quickly becomes apparent why no one with Torpor cares about regen:

Torpor: 200 mana for 1500 HP
Cann IV: 148 HP for 82 mana
Iksar/Troll Sitting Regen Diff vs. Barbs/Ogres: 12 HP

The regen diff is literally a small fraction of both what Cannibalize consumes, or what Torpor replenishes.

Oh, and you're also correct about the sitting thing. The live advice for Shaman was to "Cann-dance", and that did involve lots of sitting, but Shaman here understand the mechanics of clickies refreshing spells (eg. Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring), and they've realized that it's faster to just spam Cannibalize while standing than to bother with the dance.

I used the sitting numbers for two reasons. One, lower-level Shaman do sit a lot (whether or not they Cann-dance), and this discussion was very much about not just level 60, but the path to 60. Also, I was trying to make a point (that the regen wasn't a big deal), and I didn't want to "cheat" to make that point by using the less impressive standing regen numbers.

[Troxx]

The road to 60 is long and the price of torpor is steep.

I spent about 60-70x longer NOT at 60 than I have at 60 on my shaman.

Prior to 60 and torpor racial regen is clutch.

[Polixa]

I had fun playing a barbarian shaman to 57.

Now I am playing a troll shaman and hit 50 today. I am having even more fun this time around.

1. Evil races get the best Antonica dungeons nearby. I levelled to 48 in Upper Guk, Najena, Sol A and Sol B, almost exclusively (except see #3) - I prefer dungeons, and they are close to Grobb/Neriak so I could spend less time traveling to and from vendors/bank/playground and more time having fun.

2. Snare necklace. Got it at 19 by using a higher character to kill the Steamfont mob. Snare has been fantastic for the past 30 levels. Right now I am leveling in a spot which was good for the barb, but somewhat annoying when the mobs start deathmarch mode - to the point where I would sometimes have to gate out from adds if root resisted. With snare, it's a night and day comparison in terms of efficiency, safety, and enjoyment.

3. I took 4 levels out in Overthere L37-41 and got myself the Hammer whilst xp-ing and saving myself a future 2k. OK for some folks that's pocket change, but the point being an evil can do this quest legit, I believe a barb has to pay for MQ.


Versus ogre: Never once on either character have I noticed stuns being a big deal, in fact I barely notice them at all, and I tank everything I kill solo. I get the big timpani crash and duration stun maybe one fight in 10. Then I recast whatever spell and get on with it. I guess if it matters at all it might be at L60, but I can't speak to that.

[NegaStoat]

Troll shaman = regen, slam, exceptional base physical stats, snare necklace, repeatable Halfling illusion for quest faction hacks, an amazing smile and a scratchy butt. It blows my mind that people overlook the fact that the Halfling illusion item is repeatable.

[Rathnir]

Apologies anyway for an annoying topic.
Do you see what you've done? ;)

I ended up rolling a Barb shaman a couple weeks ago. Fungi has trivialized everything through level 19, so I have no regrets!
Glad to hear it! The early levels are a poor expression of what you grow into. Canni and pet are, of course, the big breaks. Fungi gonna keep everything easy mode, especially when you get Canni.

Ultimately I think you'll push 1-54 much faster then the other races. 54-59 might be a toss up - but you got there faster anyway. 60 all the leveling advantages don't matter anymore. As 60 barbarian shaman, I sometimes wonder if I had the regen advantage. Sometimes I wear fungi, and while it helps, it doesn't change what happens a ton. It's a small edge. Racial is the same, just even smaller.

It was my understanding that 60 shamans only sit if they're lazy or some kind of gaming god who actually catches ticks sitting.
Somewhere on these forums, I saw a bard link a youtube of how he came up with a program to detect, and visually display both server ticks, and personal ticks. I can't find the link, maybe some kind soul would post it, but it was pretty neat. All sorts of applications for knowing exact moment Fear, Root, Charm, HoT spells etc were going to potentially wear off. It was fairly impressive. But in the mean time: any Heal over Time that does 100 HP or more/tick is an indication of your actual tick, and lines up with meditate checking if you are sitting. Cast torpor, sit until it says healed for 300, stand for canni, sit, wait for heal tick, repeat.... gives you 4 guaranteed times to get your meditate tick (possibly 5).

As I understand it, a 60 sham isn't going to be sitting at 100% hp hardly ever
Good ones aren't. 100% mana doesn't happen either, if you're doing it right.

It's been hashed to death, but if you want to fill your face with a bunch of ranty math:


Starting at 54 you have at least Cannibalize 3. You gain 34 mana at the cost of 74 hit points, or a 1:0.46~ ratio. For the sake of math, you never sit, and only have standing regen, which is a 4/tick advantage. If you purely convert this to mana, you gain 1.84 Mana/tick, so slightly under FT2 boots. In the "real world" you wait 19 ticks (1.9 minutes) for your 76 HP, then cast canni 3 for 1.25 seconds to gain 34 mana, fizzles pending.

So, as a shaman, if you play longer then 2 minutes, with less then full health, and less then full mana, at level 54+ as iksar or troll it's like having FT2. Except as Hp. Kinda. At 60, the racial difference is 8 Hp/tick, and you use Canni 4 instead of 3; It ends up being close to 4.4 mana/tick that you didn't have to do anything for. Real world considerations: If I wanna Canni down and AFK, the troll and iksar come back faster. If I canni to 1/2 then run somewhere, troll and iksar heal while I run.

that regen is helping most all the time even if the amount pales relative to the healing from torpor. You're correct, Tecmos. As cool as Torpor is, all races get it, so its the same value to all races. The extremely flat answer is racial regen ends up being worth about 4.4 Mana/Tick standing @ 60.
Anecdotal Evidence: How many times do I canni a minute? If I cast Canni 4 ~26 times in 10 minutes, my mana/tick purely from canni and nothing else is around 22/tick (twice the value of C2). I have to torpor 3 times in 10 minutes to heal this damage (3600 + possible extra ticks, of 3,834 canni damage), so a few extra cannis on top of the 26 to make up the difference. Does 3 or 4 canni's per minute average sound low, spot on, or high to you, for a 60 shaman? Sounds low to me, personally - and thats only 22/tick mana, and the standing racial advantage is worth ~22% of that value. Add in Meditating(22/tick), Clarity II (11/tick), POTG(6/tick) you are now comparing 4.4 Mana/tick to 61 mana/tick (~7%) and that is not including bards, FT gear, casting canni more then 3 times a minute.. the efficacy plummets quickly.

Time to supplement a Cannibalize IV Having 82 mana, or 148 Hp is essentially the same thing to me, with small nuances. Assuming these are equal value: 51+ Iksar/Troll standing bonus takes 37 ticks (3.7 Minutes) to equal 148 hitpoints Ceremonial Iksar Chestplate takes 30 ticks (3.0 Minutes) to equal 150 hitpoints. Tunare earring takes 28 ticks (2.8 Minutes) to equal 84 mana. 60 Iksar/Troll standing bonus takes 19 ticks (1.9 Minutes) to equal 152 hp FT6 takes 14 ticks (1.4 Minutes) to equal 84 mana Sitting Level 60 Trolls and Iksar take 14 ticks (1.4 Minutes) to best their Ogre/Barbarian counterparts by 154 hp. Protection of the Glades takes 14 ticks (1.4 Minutes) to equal 84 mana. Fungi takes 10 ticks (1 Minute) to equal 150 hp Clarity II takes 8 ticks (48 Seconds) to equal 88 mana

Shaman here understand the mechanics of clickies refreshing spells (eg. Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring), and they've realized that it's faster to just spam Cannibalize while standing than to bother with the dance.

FWIW: If you sit on all 4 ticks of Torpor, you gain the 22/tick meditate x4, which is 88 mana - slightly over the value of a Canni 4, as well as not costing the 148 hp to cast the 5th time. Not to mention, even the measly barbarian sit advantage is 3 more/tick sitting. All said and done, Torpor with 4 cannis and 4 sits is: +1200 HP (Torpor) -200 Mana (Torpor) -592 HP (Canni x4) + 328 Mana (Canni x4) + 12 HP (+3 Sitting Regen(Barbarian) x4) + 88 mana (Meditate) for a net gain of: +216 Mana, +620 HP. Or you can Torpor, Cannix5, and never sit: +1200 HP (Torpor) -200 Mana (Torpor) -740 hp (Canni x5) +410 Mana (Canni x5) + 4 mana for a net gain of: +214 Mana, +460 hp. So if you do an extra canni instead of dancing, for one torpor, you lose 2 mana and 160 Hp. This isn't a massive loss to a shaman with torpor, but it is a loss, and the gap widens if you have racial regen figured in. This is 40 HP/Tick value (160 hp on 4 Torpor ticks), and we can slop it around without noticing it - that should be the exclamation point of this post. It's also worth noting that Canni x4 + Torpor takes 5 ticks (1 tick to cast Torpor, 4 more for the full ticks) and we gain 21/tick mana for those 5 ticks, not including meditate, not calculating mana preservation for specializing alteration. While gaining 620 hp (or 124 hp/tick). If all the hitpoints are consumed with 4 more cannibalizes (~2 more ticks) we have a net positive of 656 mana over 7 ticks.

The math begins to break down as you go into specialization checks, fizzles, spell orders, theoretical vs practical application and other such things, but the basic principals and figures should be a a reasonable guide. 4 mana/tick? Any other caster class would pimp their mother out for it. And they should, its massive for them. For shamans? If we make the numbers dance a little - its less then 1% of your capability.

Take away points:

Shaman HP -> Mana conversion is outlandishly powerful.
Shaman Mana -> HP conversion is outlandishly powerful.
Level 60 Shamans regain so much mana and HP with their kit (Torpor + Canni 4) that other forms of mana/hp regen are comparatively weak.
Fungis, Regrowth, Racial regen - these aren't drops in the bucket - they're buckets in the ocean (at 60). Now Pre60, especially 54+, its very enjoyable. But not necessary. And since you already have fungi, it's a very small gap.

TLDR; Mid 50s or above Troll/Iksar Shamans gain the equivalent HP value of somewhere around 1.8 mana/tick to 4.4 mana/tick over Barbarian/Ogre shamans. This value is based on standing regen figures, and improves in the favor of Iksars and Trolls even more when sitting. Sitting or standing, this decently powerful advantage is severely eclipsed by Torpor at 60.

[Trzzle]

Ogre stun immune is hugely overrated.

Iksar is HAWT!

Troll snare neck is super nice.

Barbarians are aids race.

The only true reason to pick one race over another is fashion. Just say you picked barbarian for polar bear hat and illusion and we can move on and not laugh at you. These silly stretch reasons like faction and xp penalty are sad. Every race can fix faction super easily, and can bank in any city even without fixing faction.

My shaman is Iksar for sweet robe graphic and racial superiority. Have access to friends Ogre and another friends Troll. No reason to ever play the Ogre, the Troll is nice because of snare necklace.

[Crede]

Play what you want to look at the most. If you like all equally, troll is the best shaman. Regen, snare neck, and jbb. FSI on ogre overrated. By the time you hit 60 and get torpor and don’t want to make a new alt? Still would take Regen over FSI.

[loramin]

Still would take Regen over FSI.

Genuine question (not an edgy insult): have you played a Torpor Shaman? I ask just because I honestly find it very hard to believe that anyone who has would give a crap about regeneration. They might only give two craps about FSI, but that's still > the less than one crap they'd give about regen :)

Think of it this way: how many Torpor Shaman do you see wearing fungis? Not many, and if you asked I'd guess most are still wearing them from their pre-Torpor days and just haven't gotten anything better yet. A fungi adds more regen than Iksar/Troll racial adds, and yet the vast majority of Torpor Shaman I know don't wear one because the regen is less useful to them than some stats or a clickie (eg. the one from the Velious Armor chest piece).

But in contrast if you're soloing a Western Wastes dragon, or a named in the Crypt in Seb, or any other hard mob, reducing the chance of being stunned does matter. Even if it doesn't reduce that chance by that much (there's still other ways Ogres can be stunned), stuns are scary. When Torpor Shaman solo they need to keep re-casting Torpor periodically or they die, and a single stun can be all it takes to turn a successful solo for some phat lewtz into a long annoying corpse run.

And I say all this as a Barbarian Shaman with zero skin in the game (of Iksar/Troll vs. Ogre).

Level 60 Shamans regain so much mana and HP with their kit (Torpor + Canni 4) that other forms of mana/hp regen are comparatively weak.

Fungis, Regrowth, Racial regen - these aren't drops in the bucket - they're buckets in the ocean (at 60)

First off, let me say that I appreciate you taking the time to crunch the numbers and trying to look at this objectively; most posters are fine with saying more or less "I feel this way so I must be right" :) And the stuff you wrote above is absolutely correct. But I do want to point out just one small thing I think you're missing:

FWIW: If you sit on all 4 ticks of Torpor, you gain the 22/tick meditate x4, which is 88 mana - slightly over the value of a Canni 4, as well as not costing the 148 hp to cast the 5th time.

...

If all the hitpoints are consumed with 4 more cannibalizes (~2 more ticks) we have a net positive of 656 mana over 7 ticks.

You're looking at long-term efficiency ("If ... 4 more cannibalizes"), but that's not what matters in a fight. In a fight if you take the time to cast four more cannibalizes your're going to lose a lot more HP than you're accounting for: you're going to lose however many HP the mob beats out of you while you spend the time to cast those 4 cannibalizes.

This is why spamming Cann with a Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring (or similar clickie) is so much better than Cann-dancing for a Torpor Shaman (and arguably even before). Dancing is more efficient, but spamming gets you more mana to win the fight when you need it. To put it another way, in a fight speed matters and efficiency doesn't, and after a fight when you have infinite time it really doesn't matter if you spam, cann-dance, or just sit on your ass and meditate :)

[E-Queue]

Do you see what you've done? ;)

Hahahaha. I had no idea what I was starting...

I really just wanted to to get a sense of the importance of racial regen relative to a fungi tunic for a shaman. In hindsight, this is easily obtainable information on the wiki (+15 for fungi vs the standing/sitting regen table on the shaman page), but this has been a fun, informative thread regardless.

I did enjoy how one person listed all the pros for troll shamans and included their goofy smiles and butt scratching, when those are the two biggest cons I can think of (along with the way they run). Just so cartoonish... To each their own!

[Troxx]

If a shaman had a fungi, they’d wear it.

They all have regen spells and only the worst of them don’t keep it up constantly (caveat being the 60 shaman who has torpor and isn’t super worried about min/maxing.)

Regeneration is clutch to the shaman classes. We all know and acknowledge this but the discussion always breaks down with people doing mental gymnastics trying to rationalize racial regen not being important.

1-50 troll/iksar regen is double. After 51 it takes off exponentially. Make no mistake, it’s a big deal. Twinking out with a fungi mitigates this difference but does not eliminate it. Fungi or no fungi racial regen stacks and this still has value. For those who only care about performance at 60 with torpor or for those who’ve had torpor for longer than they can remember just know that lv 1-59.99 takes a long time. Balancing mana and regen while being expected to drop expensive slow bombs pull after pull all while buffing and healing is an art. Racial regen makes this job so much easier especially for those not supertwinking at a low level.


At the end of the day the most important thing is liking how you look. There are other reasons to pick other races (faction, leveling speed, FSI). They’re all right reasons.

That’s cool and all, but don’t be obtuse and try to strip away the logical value of racial regen with mental gymnastics. If regen wasn’t important, you wouldn’t fork over huge cash for a fungi and you wouldn’t obsessively refresh your regen buff every time it fell.

EQ is a game of small but mounting incremental gains. Racial regen isn’t a small gain.

[loramin]

If a shaman had a fungi, they’d wear it.

They all have regen spells and only the worst of them don’t keep it up constantly (caveat being the 60 shaman who has torpor and isn’t super worried about min/maxing.)

True: pre-Topor any form of regeneration (spell, racial or Fungi) is awesome for Shaman.

people doing mental gymnastics trying to rationalize racial regen not being important.

1-50 troll/iksar regen is double. After 51 it takes off exponentially. Make no mistake, it’s a big deal.

...

Racial regen isn’t a small gain.

I think the problem is that you're talking in absolutes, but this stuff isn't absolute, it's relative. It's not "is Iksar/Troll regen good?" (I agree that it is), it's "is Iksar/Troll regen better or worse than FSI or a significantly faster leveling?" And relative to the Shaman XP bonus (and faction), in my opinion the regen is just not as good for getting you to level 60 (and then it's not very useful once you have Torpor at 60).

But people can crunch the numbers to argue either way, and ultimately it's subjective because people level differently, die at different rates, spend more/less time AFK recovering, etc. All I can say is that based on my many years playing a Shaman both here and on live, my best subjective-but-trying-to-be-objective assessment is that the XP bonus gets you to 60 faster.

Even so I freely admit that both regen and the XP bonus help you get to 60 faster, and both give a fairly close benefit ... it's just that (again) exactly how close depends on your playstyle.

[Lojik]

With a fungi, a Barbarian at low levels will perform almost as well as a troll/iksar/ogre, and probably level faster due to the racial penalty being stronger than the boon of innate regen. Racial regen v. no racial regen loses a bit of its luster if you throw a fungi into the mix, especially at low levels. Below level 20 a troll/iksar with fungi regens standing at 17/tick, a non iksar/troll at 16/tick. At level 60 with fungi, Troll/Iksar 27/tick versus 19/tick. Throw in Torpor and it's pretty small.

I picked troll for my shaman because I preferred the look anyway, and racial regen was nice. It was also my first character so I feel like it helped. But for my first twink character I went human monk. With a fungi the racial choice didn't really matter much until 60, but it's very likely I got 60 faster specifically because I went human.

[Lordgordon]

The only fix is the delete button

[Troxx]

But people can crunch the numbers to argue either way, and ultimately it's subjective because people level differently, die at different rates, spend more/less time AFK recovering, etc. All I can say is that based on my many years playing a Shaman both here and on live, my best subjective-but-trying-to-be-objective assessment is that the XP bonus gets you to 60 faster.

I think most will agree that a barbarian shaman (all other things equal to include gear, available groups, skill, etc being equal) compared with other races. On the flip side, the shaman with racial regen will perform more effectively in and for their groups. That much is more or less undeniable, especially if the shaman(s) in question don't have a fungi. More regen = more available mana which translates to more spell casts, less down time, and more effective healing/slowing and other additional duties.

[loramin]

I think most will agree that a barbarian shaman (all other things equal to include gear, available groups, skill, etc being equal) compared with other races. On the flip side, the shaman with racial regen will perform more effectively in and for their groups. That much is more or less undeniable, especially if the shaman(s) in question don't have a fungi. More regen = more available mana which translates to more spell casts, less down time, and more effective healing/slowing and other additional duties.

Well put.

[Raev]

I remember discussing this with Orruar (barbarian) and his logic on the fungi was 'just because you have a lot of money doesn't mean you don't want more'. Shaman are an active class that takes a lot of damage when played well and you have to recuperate somehow. And the mana regen is great, but Turgur's, Malo, Bane of Nife, and Chloroblast spam are all tremendously expensive. IMO the fungi and Vindi BP are very close despite the latter's massive advantage in literally every statistic.

OP: you have to ask yourself whether you are going to be OK with being say 3-5% worse than a Troll (or Iksar) for the sake of fashionquest. Personally I like the Iksar models, so going Iksar shaman was easy. If only Monk/Shaman wasn't so so so terrible on TAKP . . .

[bluntfang]

The only fix is the delete button

[E-Queue]

OP: you have to ask yourself whether you are going to be OK with being say 3-5% worse than a Troll (or Iksar) for the sake of fashionquest.

That's a great way of putting it. In my case, the answer is yes. I'm okay with being less efficient as long as the difference isn't huge. My main concern was whether the difference for shaman was as dramatic as the difference between Iksar and other races for necromancer. I think this thread has convinced me that the difference is not insignificant, but it is nowhere near as big a deal for shaman. Given far easier access to regen items and regen spells for shaman, this makes perfect sense.

Thanks again for all the replies. Great info here.

[Troxx]

OP: you have to ask yourself whether you are going to be OK with being say 3-5% worse than a Troll (or Iksar) for the sake of fashionquest. Personally I like the Iksar models, so going Iksar shaman was easy. If only Monk/Shaman wasn't so so so terrible on TAKP . . .

And that’s really the take home point/question. I personally am not min/max across the board. My monk I willfully made a human. Sure I leveled faster but I acknowledge that I will forever be less powerful in a big way by not choosing iksar and giving up that crucial regen and the ac bonus. My warrior? I made that a dwarf and gave up the FSI and huge stat bonuses on ogre. I regret neither of those choices because I wanted to play the races I ultimately created. I knew the consequences and made my choices and am happy with them.

For shaman there is a case to be made that FSI is worth giving up regen. I don’t agree and have never personally come across a scenario where FSI would have helped other than avoid a mildly annoying, infrequent inconvenience. The discussion of barbarian vs other - there’s no argument to be made other than a head nod to the same decision I had when rolling my monk.

Point is, if you want to be a barbarian ... be one! Play what you want. As long as you know why you made the decision you did; the choice for you was a good one.

Any class of any race can be wildly successful in this game with skill, knowledge, attention to detail, and gear. This is especially true for shamans. A sub-60 barbarian shaman with no fungi but played skillfully can and will function more efficiently than a troll shaman with a fungi who is played poorly with a fungi.

Remember that ultimately this regen thing is about mana. Regening more is always good but I’d argue that more important is how you use that mana. My favorite example relates to the slow choices a shaman has starting in the low 50s. The best costs 250, the next lowest almost as good is 175 and the one below that (by far good enough for a standard xp group) is 125. Dropping 250 mana per pull gets really expensive really quickly. Prior to fungi at 57 and later torpor at 60 my favorite trick for juggling mana was to use a lower level slow more often than not and save 75-125 mana per cast. As long as the healer isn’t struggling for mana, it keeps the buffs up and the xp train rolling.

Play what you want, but no a fungi does not comparatively “fix” the racial problem barbarians have. It helps mitigate it but all races can wear it so the power discrepancy will always be present.

[Zuranthium]

The live advice for Shaman was to "Cann-dance", and that did involve lots of sitting, but Shaman here understand the mechanics of clickies refreshing spells (eg. Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring), and they've realized that it's faster to just spam Cannibalize while standing than to bother with the dance.

Canni-dance is very important pre-Torpor and still relevant even then. If you're not doing it, then you're usually playing sub-optimally. Canni twice inbetween every med tick creates a better mana/health expenditure ratio. If you are a 60 Shaman with Torpor and not taking any outside damage, then sure there are times you can just spam Canni 4 (or even before Torpor if you happen to be full health at a certain time, then you can Canni-spam down first, before you start the Canni-dance chain). However, if you are taking other damage or don't have the time to keep Torpor on yourself constantly, then missing out on the regen from sitting ticks is a less efficient way of playing.

Granted, it's annoying as hell to play a Shaman perfectly, constantly clicking non-stop with exact timing, but it is better.

[Doctor Jeff]

Canni-dance is very important pre-Torpor and still relevant even then. If you're not doing it, then you're usually playing sub-optimally. Canni twice inbetween every med tick creates a better mana/health expenditure ratio. If you are a 60 Shaman with Torpor and not taking any outside damage, then sure there are times you can just spam Canni 4 (or even before Torpor if you happen to be full health at a certain time, then you can Canni-spam down first, before you start the Canni-dance chain). However, if you are taking other damage or don't have the time to keep Torpor on yourself constantly, then missing out on the regen from sitting ticks is a less efficient way of playing.

Granted, it's annoying as hell to play a Shaman perfectly, constantly clicking non-stop with exact timing, but it is better.

Should be noted that zuranthium does not have a 60 shaman and quit red because no one would play with him.

[Zuranthium]

I do have a 60 shaman, and I quit red because it's a waste of time, there's no real PvP and no real guilds to play with at all. Only a tiny group of small-brained people are on the server (which sucks, as I much prefer red to blue). p99 in general is something that's not worth much of my time, I've never played for more than 1.5 months at a time. Reminiscing about classic EQ and thinking of ways to improve it are more interesting than p99 itself.

[Maschenny]

Canni-dance is very important pre-Torpor and still relevant even then. If you're not doing it, then you're usually playing sub-optimally. Canni twice inbetween every med tick creates a better mana/health expenditure ratio. If you are a 60 Shaman with Torpor and not taking any outside damage, then sure there are times you can just spam Canni 4 (or even before Torpor if you happen to be full health at a certain time, then you can Canni-spam down first, before you start the Canni-dance chain). However, if you are taking other damage or don't have the time to keep Torpor on yourself constantly, then missing out on the regen from sitting ticks is a less efficient way of playing.

Granted, it's annoying as hell to play a Shaman perfectly, constantly clicking non-stop with exact timing, but it is better.

Are you sure you have a torp shaman?

[Doctor Jeff]

Are you sure you have a torp shaman?

Should be noted that zuranthium does not have a 60 shaman and quit red because no one would play with him.

[Zuranthium]

Are you sure you have a torp shaman?

What part did you not understand?

Torpor is powerful but it isn't free and it isn't a complete heal. If you aren't timing Cannibalizes perfectly inbetween med ticks in situations where your health is being heavily pressured, then you are simply being less efficient. Cannibalize isn't an infinite generator, rather something that converts a resource you don't always need (health) into one you usually need more (mana).

You give up 210 mana and 30 health during a minute of not hitting sit ticks (more health if a regen race). This is a free resource that should be used during times when you can't cannibalize non-stop. Torpor is a finite amount of healing, an average of 2,700 per minute we could say. If you come out of a fight with 20% health for example, then after a minute of spamming cannibalize + 2 torpors, you will only be at about 50% health still. There are situations where it's definitely relevant to not want your health total to be so low (particularly under Torpor, as you move slowly). As such, you instead should have been staggering cannibalize with sit ticks, since this gives the most optimal combined rate of health and mana regen at the time.

Or for example if you are root rotting a bunch of mobs and taking hits as the roots break, or from adds. The damage you're taking from the mobs + thoughtless canni spam might exceed the amount that torpor + regen heals (and it's important to note that Torpor is rarely ever perma-maintained, there's almost always going to be gaps between it ending and being re-applied). As such, you are eventually going to have to slow down your canni usage anyway, which means that whole time you were missing out on the gains from natural sit ticks. If you don't manage your resources perfectly, then you might end up having to zone from not being able to handle adds, which means you lost instead of winning.

[loramin]

What part did you not understand?

Torpor is powerful but it isn't free and it isn't a complete heal. If you aren't timing Cannibalizes perfectly inbetween med ticks in situations where your health is being heavily pressured, then you are simply being less efficient. Cannibalize isn't an infinite generator, rather something that converts a resource you don't always need (health) into one you usually need more (mana).

You give up 210 mana and 30 health during a minute of not hitting sit ticks (more health if a regen race). This is a free resource that should be used during times when you can't cannibalize non-stop. Torpor is a finite amount of healing, an average of 2,700 per minute we could say. If you come out of a fight with 20% health for example, then after a minute of spamming cannibalize + 2 torpors, you will only be at about 50% health still. There are situations where it's definitely relevant to not want your health total to be so low (particularly under Torpor, as you move slowly). As such, you instead should have been staggering cannibalize with sit ticks, since this gives the most optimal combined rate of health and mana regen at the time.

Or for example if you are root rotting a bunch of mobs and taking hits as the roots break, or from adds. The damage you're taking from the mobs + thoughtless canni spam might exceed the amount that torpor + regen heals (and it's important to note that Torpor is rarely ever perma-maintained, there's almost always going to be gaps between it ending and being re-applied). As such, you are eventually going to have to slow down your canni usage anyway, which means that whole time you were missing out on the gains from natural sit ticks. If you don't manage your resources perfectly, then you might end up having to zone from not being able to handle adds, which means you lost instead of winning.

Well after all that let me just say ...

Are you sure you have a torp shaman?

Just kidding.

I thought you were on the right track by trying to contextualize things with real world examples, so I decided to try and break things down to a spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Baa_Dn87g-0xd4PYxLiywiCI1UL87XxyYftpI8giHUo/edit?usp=sharing

There are three rows for three different approaches (all right-click spam, all meditate, and a mix). The first two columns count the number of Cannibalize IVs cast and Med Ticks that are caught. The next two columns show the net HP/Mana gain, and the "Efficiency" column combines those two columns (but only counts HP as .554 of a mana, to match the ratio from Cann IV).

After that every column is half a second, and I've laid out what a Shaman following each strategy would cast or do during that half second interval. All three start out with a Torpor to keep things simple. I also drew borders around each tick to make that clear. I'm not sure my methodology is perfect ... in fact, I strongly suspect I'm missing or forgetting something, so I welcome any criticism (if you see anything wrong PLEASE feel free to copy the spreadsheet, fix it, and link your sheet back here).

Even so, I think the spreadsheet shows what everyone has been saying. Yes, the more you med the more efficient you get. BUT, it's also true that the more you med the less mana you wind up with, and again in a fight you generally want quick mana more than you want efficiency.

However, as the spreadsheet shows throwing a few perfectly timed meditates in-between the spam is pretty optimal (you wind up with only about 20 mana less, but about 150 HP more) ... but that assumes that you follow the pattern perfectly and hit every tick exactly. I'm not so sure that's realistic.

[kjs86z]

Polar bear is pretty sweet.

[Doctor Jeff]

Well after all that let me just say ....

This also neglects mobs that summon, efficiency of slow duration vs root recasts, and the fact that every damaging ability you will cast on a mob besides epic dot has a very high chance of breaking those roots that already last half the time of a slow, even if they lasted full duration which they never will.

What mobs are you killing with your torpor shaman that both require high efficiency and can be rooted? Are you in a group? 150 hp or 20 mana over a minute will be completely irrelevant if you are.

It’s a ridiculous premise set in a vacuum of grinding on seafuries or something equally non-consequential.

[Doctor Jeff]

You're also neglecting the benefits of potential mana/hp. The HP that you lose by sitting at full hp or mana. There is no reason to be 100% hp or mana at any time. Every tick that you are not regenerating a resource, you are wasting the potential hp/mana that you would have gained in that tick. With HP, this is quite a lot, and even with standing mana with no mana buffs, it adds up.

If you guys are worried about that 20 mana/150 hp per minute, then you should also be considering the 360 hp per minute that an ogre receives while standing, even more so with regen races.


Maybe you guys should try using your torpor shaman on something besides ice giants before you weigh in on this.

[Zuranthium]

It’s a ridiculous premise set in a vacuum of grinding on seafuries or something equally non-consequential.

Farming isn't "non-consequential", it's the majority of the game actually, and the question is if you want to maximize your efficiency to get the most out of your time. Sometimes the answer might be no, because as I said, it's extremely annoying to play perfectly when it comes to these tedious game mechanics.

It's not just a question of farming though, but survivability as well. If you are in a dungeon with a group and you die or run out of mana, well that might ruin the entire run. Putting the effort in to get the gains from sitting ticks might make the difference with being able to handle adds at a certain point in time (which could also mean PvP). I've definitely seen situations of Shaman failing because of lazy canni-spamming and having less resources to work with.

You're correct about generally not wanting to ever be 100% hp/mana (although again - PvP), because that means you aren't using your maximum power at a given point in time. It's certainly relevant to not want to become too vulnerable though, and there's also this thing called "time". High-end spells especially take a lot of time to cast. If you're in the middle of a long and difficult pull, you will likely be trying to put slow and root on many things, torpor on multiple people, and reapplying buffs that happen to be dropping. There are situations where Torpor alone isn't enough of a burst heal either and you need to Chloroblast as well to keep someone alive.

In those situations, you don't have the time to spam Canni and keep Torpor on yourself 24/7. If you are playing ideally, then you will be watching the 6 second tick timer and trying to find times to quickly hit a sit tick before casting the next spell on your endless list of things to do. The majority of the time it may not make a difference, but you are incorrect to say it's always irrelevant.

[Snaggles]

Short answer: Play what you like the look of. Gear and levels trivialize any racial advantages/flaws in EQ.

Long answer: The troll exp penalty sucks but if you are a filthy casual soloer for the most part (like me) the regen and JBB access are great. Also can stack more Stamina than most races. If you anticipate having 200k’ish for an epic tear, fungi, and torpor it really doesn’t matter. I’ll likely take forever to hit 60, will take about that long to buy a fungi, even longer for torpor, and never have an epic. The snare necklace is quite nice.

If instead of a 53 troll I had a 56 (?) Barb I wouldn’t complain. It wouldn’t change what I can kill and wouldn’t slow down the grind much at all. Not shrinking would be really nice as would playing in unrest and HHK without burning pots. I’d prob be rocking a Barb Spiritalist Hammer. If I had a 53 Iksar that would be hardmode and I’d be grouping more...again no epic or JBB. Ugh...

[E-Queue]

So it's decided then, Barbarian is actually the min-max choice due to polar bear skin helms. Glad we were able to come to agreement on that! (Kidding obviously)

So, on a semi-related tangent, is Arctic Wyvern Skullcap (https://wiki.project1999.com/Arctic_Wyvern_Skullcap) the BiS polar bear skin helm for casual shamaning? Assuming I did my fashion search correctly (Fashion: Leather, Shaman Equipment, Head), this might be the item to eventually aim for. Doesn't really matter as I'm sure this leather helm will be perfectly serviceable til 60, but I'm just curious. Velious seems to have largely abandoned the concept of helm graphics for some reason. I disapprove...

[Jimjam]

A bunch of live forum nerds complained they couldn't see their characters face when wearing helmets so now we have to deal with retarded invisible helms 20 years later.

[Solist]

So it's decided then, Barbarian is actually the min-max choice due to polar bear skin helms. Glad we were able to come to agreement on that! (Kidding obviously)

So, on a semi-related tangent, is Arctic Wyvern Skullcap (https://wiki.project1999.com/Arctic_Wyvern_Skullcap) the BiS polar bear skin helm for casual shamaning? Assuming I did my fashion search correctly (Fashion: Leather, Shaman Equipment, Head), this might be the item to eventually aim for. Doesn't really matter as I'm sure this leather helm will be perfectly serviceable til 60, but I'm just curious. Velious seems to have largely abandoned the concept of helm graphics for some reason. I disapprove...

Spirit Talker's Headdress gives polar bear view to the wearer. But not to others.

And its awesome.

[loramin]

So, on a semi-related tangent, is Arctic Wyvern Skullcap (https://wiki.project1999.com/Arctic_Wyvern_Skullcap) the BiS polar bear skin helm for casual shamaning? Assuming I did my fashion search correctly (Fashion: Leather, Shaman Equipment, Head), this might be the item to eventually aim for. Doesn't really matter as I'm sure this leather helm will be perfectly serviceable til 60, but I'm just curious. Velious seems to have largely abandoned the concept of helm graphics for some reason. I disapprove...

Yes, you used the fashion search perfectly (always nice to see that stuff getting used).

Spirit Talker's Headdress

That's probably BiS for casual. For raiding I think Custom Crown of the Kromzek Kings (https://wiki.project1999.com/Custom_Crown_of_the_Kromzek_Kings) and possibly even Custom_Frostreaver's Velium Crown (https://wiki.project1999.com/Custom_Frostreaver%27s_Velium_Crown) are better. A runner up for BiS casual would be Custom Cowl of Mortality (https://wiki.project1999.com/Custom_Cowl_of_Mortality).

[E-Queue]

Thanks for the Spirit Talker's Headdress suggestion. Definitely BiS leather look for a non-raider. I missed it somehow during my search.

Yes, you used the fashion search perfectly (always nice to see that stuff getting used).

It's an awesome tool! Back when I was more active, I was struggling to find a decent high end plate helm for my erudite paladin. Invisible helms were a non-starter for him, so I looked through ZAM data for all the Velious era helms to see what would work. It was a huge pain. This would have saved me a lot of time!

[Teppler]

That's a great way of putting it. In my case, the answer is yes. I'm okay with being less efficient as long as the difference isn't huge. My main concern was whether the difference for shaman was as dramatic as the difference between Iksar and other races for necromancer. I think this thread has convinced me that the difference is not insignificant, but it is nowhere near as big a deal for shaman. Given far easier access to regen items and regen spells for shaman, this makes perfect sense.

Thanks again for all the replies. Great info here.

Wow I disagree a lot with what’s being said in this thread.

I think at 60 the racial difference for necro won’t account for much more of an effective necro whether you’re iksar or not. I think the difference is much bigger on shaman and actually can make a difference in a lot of places.

Regen is always a big deal. Even at 60 after you have torpor. If nothing else, it’s such an awesome quality of life thing to get away from torpor after torpor after torpor.

Judging by this thread and what people say I’d judge ogre the worst shaman class but I think the FSI is invaluable. I’m also jealous and wish I had some of the troll perks of extra regen and snare. That stuff matters and I would really enjoy having it. Compared to my dark elf necro... with level 60 lich and life taps, I’m not really missing racial regen.

[Duckwalk]

This is an interesting perspective and argument (quality of life wat?)coming from a class where choosing the right race effectively eliminates health loss from their lich lines of spells.

That said I agree regen is always important. I still find myself wearing a fungi, casting regrowth and bear form because an extra free hp in canni ever 30 sec is nice for someone who compulsively/passively cast canni all the time.

Is an extra 9 hp a tick (Barb 3 standing, Troll/Iksar 12 standing) at 60 game breaking? No but it’s an extra 90 hp over a minute which is nice too.

FSI is cool because it’s not accessible in an any other way and so it’s unique (if ridiculously overrated).

At 60 when you boil it down, it’s basically FSI vs 9regen standing/12sitting and snare clicky vs white polar bear. Not game changing. Play what you like.

[Raev]

One other thing worth noting: on TAKP snare is absolutely critical. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it has to do with unaggroed mobs on P99 preventing their compatriots from running, e.g. when you camp at the brain room nothing will run if the ilis shaman is up in the closest jail cell. My biggest regret with my Monk/Shaman combination on TAKP was not having that snare clicky necklace. Even after I got the VP spear, procs are inconsistent and and switching around weapons is even more APM on an already high APM class.

I am hopeful that at some point Haynar will come fix all of the numerous mechanics problems on P99: push/interrupt, NPCs fleeing, flee stuns, procs for >400 hate, linger timers, increased blur chance, rogues sneaking everywhere, NPC aggro delay after standing up from FD, and so on. When combined, its a massive nerf to P99s overpowered melee and I think it would nearly perfectly balance melee/hybrids/priests/casters/npcs (with the exception of Wizards who don't have a Rend/Conflag robe).

Returning to on topic, the obvious winner after these changes is Troll (snare clicky neck, slam interrupting casters) while all other shaman races lose.

[Danth]

My biggest regret with my Monk/Shaman combination on TAKP was not having that snare clicky necklace.

One of several reasons why Shadow Knight/Shaman was well-regarded historically, in spite of the P99 culture's tendency to dismiss the hybrid types. My experience here mirrors your own in that doing dungeons here with no snare is no big deal while historically it was a risky proposition at best. Marginally related (in the sense of affecting Shaman solo) is the inability of a single person to keep more than 4 things at a time rooted, another P99 nonissue which benefits the solo caster.

Danth

[Grail3r]

Ogre Shaman frontal stun immunity is pretty good if you intend to solo a lot . Else I would consider Troll .