Shaman Slowing

[Evia]

So I'll admit it was years down the road for me before I learned that an Enchanters lvl 4 mez should generally be used over the higher lvl mezzes. I was curious if it's the same for shamans slow spells? Is there a low lvl slow that is generally viewed as the "main" slow to use? Or is the best slow for the lvl always the one you want?

[Danth]

Use the best slow that doesn't run you out of mana. That'll be the top slow against anything significant. In come cases that may be no slow at all, in the case of groups rapidly bringing in large numbers of weak opponents.

Danth

[beargryllz]

Nah they want that 75% slow

They should get it around lvl 51 or so

Enchanters use the lvl 4 mez because all the mez have the same -resist check and the same effect. But you don't really need more than 4 ticks to kill 1 add in most groups, so lvl 4 mez is the best mez most of the time

[loramin]

I believe the consensus is that you always want the best one, until you get Turgur's Insects. For many fights the 75% of Turgur's, at a cost of 250, isn't worth the extra 75 mana for 5% more slow compared to Togor's (70% slow for 175 mana).

Personally I just use Turgur's for everything though. We're Shaman, we have Cannibalize and (at 60) Torpor: we have mana to burn

[Supaskillz]

Leveling I think you will have to make judgement calls if you are grouped. some groups dps is so high slowing is just not worth it bc mob will be half dead by the time you spend a bunch of mana to slow it. Soloing you are likely root rotting until 60 so obviously don’t waste mana slowing.

I have a 60 shaman. I mostly solo but for me it’s not close, I use turgurs all of the time. It lasts twice as long and is a better slow and most of my solo fights at lvl 60 are well over 3 min.

[Arkanjil]

normal grouping I just stick to torgor's. Anything that I know will be a longer fight or when I'm soloing/raiding, it's Turgur's.

[Swish2]

Nobody knows which one you're casting and many don't bother to ask - use one which allows your mana pool to stay fairly steady as mentioned.

For ages I didn't have tepid deeds on my enchanter. If the clerics I grouped with noticed they never said anything about it :p

[Muggens]

More than one shaman are called shamen

[Raev]

So I'll admit it was years down the road for me before I learned that an Enchanters lvl 4 mez should generally be used over the higher lvl mezzes. I was curious if it's the same for shamans slow spells? Is there a low lvl slow that is generally viewed as the "main" slow to use? Or is the best slow for the lvl always the one you want?

The L4 mez is good for recharming, because you don't want your charmed pet out of action for a minute or more. Enchanters are generally short on spell slots, so some figure that they can just use L4 for regular crowd control too. In my humble opinion this is not a great idea; it's hard to lock down multiple/resistant mobs with a 24 second mez. But to each their own.

Back of the envelope math for shamans: Turgur's is 250 mana, and is 17% better than Togor's (ignore Loramin, who is merrily continuing his quest to be wrong about literally everything) which is 175 mana. 75 mana could heal roughly 150 HP. So Turgur's starts to win at about 900 HP of damage taken. If we guesstimate the average L50 NPC at 50 dps, that means fights of 45 seconds or more, which is pretty typical in your 50s. Less than that would mean a very good group.

Another way of looking at it: Turgur's is 17% better than Togor's, but requires 43% more mana. So if you don't have enough mana to hit everything with Turgur's, switching to Togor's is a win.

[Cen]

More than one shaman are called shamen

Shaman, Shaman, Shamen
Person, Persons, People

[Swish2]

More than one shaman are called shamen

These are good ^^ :p

[Muggens]

Ebeneezer Scrooge :)

[Loke]

Depends on the situation. Duoing with a monk in Sol B or KC basement? I'd probably use 70%. Full group with high dps against lower HP mobs? I might use the 50% slow or no slow at all. I really only break out the 75% solo or on longer fights. For example, duoing with a lower dps class like an SK in velks, 75% might be worth the additional mana.

Part of being a good shaman is getting a feel for mana efficiency. For example, in a duo pre-torpor you want to slow to an extent where you don't really have to heal. With a monk wearing fungi and regrowth in KC basement, 70% should be more than enough, so using the 75% is just wasting mana that could be used on other spells (e.g. less canni time, more JBB). If 70% isn't enough, then it makes sense to bump up to 75% since that is more mana efficient than having to cast a heal.

Basically, tailor your play style and spell selection to the needs of the situation.

[dcrag]

Ya even in the lower levels down ranking is very useful - its better to slow every mob by 30% then every other mob by 50%

[turbosilk]

It's not about so much of the 5% more slow or the 75 more mana than it is that turgurs has a 40% reduction in cast time at 3 sec vs 5. 5 is a crazy long time.

[Lojik]

It's not about so much of the 5% more slow or the 75 more mana than it is that turgurs has a 40% reduction in cast time at 3 sec vs 5. 5 is a crazy long time.

Yes the cast time difference is crucial.

Also, while there are theoretically situations where using togors would be more ideal, I think it's not usually worth it to worry about. Spell slots are valuable and I don't think it's worth having two slows memmed, and if you usually want to be prepared for the toughest situations that come at you. Slows are some the most mana efficient spells in the game, so that extra 5%, longer duration, and shorter cast time are often worth it. If there are situations where togors would be more efficient, there are often better ways to deal with the situation than with a slow, such as root parking, throwing a heal or two, nuke with jbb, undead fear or snare.

As for lower levels, I haven't really done much of an analysis but it doesn't seem like slows are worth it until maybe level 30? It's been a while since I played or even longer since I leveled the shaman. Slows are not high %'s at low levels, mobs don't hit particularly hard, and they don't last very long either. They scale very well and become much more powerful at higher levels.

I think the only time i would mem togors over turgurs would be i had a very good idea how long the target NPC's would take to die, but if there were any variables in the situation I usually wouldn't.

[Rygar]

I believe the consensus is that you always want the best one, until you get Turgur's Insects. For many fights the 75% of Turgur's, at a cost of 250, isn't worth the extra 75 mana for 5% more slow compared to Togor's (70% slow for 175 mana).

Personally I just use Turgur's for everything though. We're Shaman, we have Cannibalize and (at 60) Torpor: we have mana to burn

For the record I bug reported this, I believe Togor's should cap much sooner regardless of SPDAT data. So eventually, if evidence is to be believed, there will be a much wider gap between Turgur's and Togor's... making Turgur's more the 'go to' slow in most situations.

[Darkatar]

Nobody knows which one you're casting

The slows actually have very obviously different cast times- Anyone that cares to know can easily figure it out by watching the shaman cast.

[Hrothgar]

For what it’s worth, if I’m power leveling, I like to use the lower lvl slow. I generally pull/root/slow/epic about 6 mobs at a time while the 50+ melee class I’m plvling goes the rounds. I can keep mana under check and spot /invites for Torp shots a lot easier when I’m not having to Canni back 5 mobs x75 mana, tossing epics in the mix, and positioning pet. The higher lvl the offense/defense on the melee further makes the lower lvl slow more practical, and, if they’re paying me for plvl, they usually have the gear to make up for any additional incoming damage. Just my 2cp.

Oh, and hit me up if you want a Plvl :)

[loramin]

For the record I bug reported this, I believe Togor's should cap much sooner regardless of SPDAT data. So eventually, if evidence is to be believed, there will be a much wider gap between Turgur's and Togor's... making Turgur's more the 'go to' slow in most situations.

https://i.imgur.com/lujAVMf.png

[Swish2]

The slows actually have very obviously different cast times- Anyone that cares to know can easily figure it out by watching the shaman cast.

Maybe people expect less of an enchanter but as mentioned I was getting away with casting languid pace (30% slow, 2.25 sec cast) instead of tepid deeds (50% slow, 3.5 sec cast).

This was only due to not having the researched spell at the time, but the point being as long as people look to be doing their jobs it goes under the radar.

[Boyblunder]

This is just anecdotal,but for me in solb togors seemed to get resisted a lot while turgurs did not.

[fastboy21]

If you're in a grind group the slow isn't the most important thing, its the efficiency...all that matters is time/kills. If using the higher level slow (or the lower level one) gets you to improve that ratio then you are making the right choice. The problem with giving an answer is that much depends on the rest of the group composition to determine which is best.

There are times when I was leveling my shaman in KC at hands, for example, that I would actually mem both slows during the WL/BG pulls, especially if I was the only healer or if the tank was soft. This had to do with worrying about getting a summoning BG/WL that could kill folks or me if there was a string of bad resists.

Most of the times folks just ask for stuff out of habit...rather than argue about why someone doesn't need a dex buff I usually just gave them the low lvl clicky if they asked to save myself mana. Nobody I have ever done that to has said anything to me...they know if you are cann'ing like a fool to keep the group rolling that they their buff ask is not the urgent priority.

On the other, if you're sitting at full mana with another healer in the group and a strong tank then you need to find ways of adding to the efficiency of the group...start dropping dots and nukes if you have extra mana, use the highest lvl slow, etc.