PvP Thread, Balancing issues / Parsing / Resists / Known issues.

[Bombfist]

Before this thread starts I'd like to request some moderation please, we don't have a place to post this, and i would like to get out of the rant and flames part of the boards so we can discuss actual pvp mechanics and the way the community would see the server, as per request by Rogean in the other thread.

I'll address each part of pvp, if you have input reply in the same format, with known issues in each section and i'll edit the top post of the thread in relation to relevant information raised in your post.

There won't be much here until we can do some actual testing over time on a beta server, what rexx did was fine but doesn't actually provide us with any insight of what's happening with anything in pvp at all really, we need parses over time to determine max and minimum hits for each melee class once AC is implemented. Sorry rexx but i don't think we can conclude that damage needs to be raised after a short time messing around on somebodys alt chars at p99.

We need to decide what the staff here / the community are trying to achieve, is this a classic eq pvp server or are you making some sort of attempt to balance it.

I've just pasted issues from the other thread in the appropriate section, feel free to reply and i'll update so that the devs can read this as a top post without scrolling through pages.

Through lasher on AIM and rexx's post we've added a few already, feel free to post concerns below.
________________________
Balancing Issues (TESTED ISSUES) on p99

-Z-Axis tested, range in screenshots. 31.03.2011

--[Out of range Z-axis] www.vexthal.com/inrange.bmp
--[MAX in range Z-Axis] www.vexthal.com/outofrange.bmp

-Melee hit boxes do NOT work through walls 31.03.2011

--www.vexthal.com/WALLBOX.bmp

-Disarm "WORKS, WOW" Item went to first bag. [If bags are full item goes onto the cursor] 31.03.2011
-There IS a Line of sight check at the end of casting. 31.03.2011
-Hit boxes are basically 1 human player length laying down, which i think is fine. 31.03.2011
-Fear and charm do not work on PC's. 31.03.2011
-AC Does not work. 31.03.2011
-Monk throwing weapon can be thrown out of your ass, sometimes bugs and says you cannot see your target, but for the most part does not require vision from the front. 31.03.2011
-dwarf clerics on P99 currently get the bash ability, while other cleric races do not. 31.03.2011
-Sitting down means nothing on p99 when taking damage. 31.03.2011
-Tracking works 31.03.2011
BACKSTAB - Needs work, Screenshot provided. www.vexthal.com/backstablol.bmp
As you can see, he's basically stood infront of me. 31.03.2011


Did some MINOR testing with root for MR resist checks 02/04/2011 Tests were done by foxx (Highest level root spell level 50 cleric?)

11/70 resists vs 25 MR Level 50
27/70 resists vs 65 MR Level 50

It's very limited due to not having that much access to toons / not many people have resist gear on p99 either.
_________________________
Balancing Issues (tbc)

-Hit box, how close you need to be to hit smeone or get hit by someone
-Did different races have smaller or bigger hit boxes
-Rog's degree of angle to land a Back stab
-Being able to shoot arrows out of your ass
-Should pets zone should they not. "pets did not zone with players until the patch July 14th, 2004"

-Should bards ench be able to charm poof mage pets

-Fear/Charm/Whirl to you hurl are all spells that need looking at.
-Does tracking players work properly on p99?
-Does disarm work properly?
-"Also saw no difference in physical attacks on 400ac and 900ac" AC Scaling
-If you had money on your cursor when being Pked your plat would not be able to be looted
-update... dwarf clerics on P99 currently get the bash ability, while other cleric races do not.
-I hear mage bolts on p99 are really slow and might able to be out ran

-Zone line AOE. (Frowned upon, against the rules on VZ/TZ) AOE Mechanics on the whole.
-Should murky vial in/out? CUrrently in on p99
-Should golem wands in/out rechargeable? (Golem wand was eventually patched to 4 second cast time on live 2002, seems reasonable to me)
-Egg shaped pumice (I'll speak for the whole community and say the insta click version of these should not be implemented)


______________________________________________
Parsing

-10 minutes of constant hits parsed properly for each class, max hit %, lowest hit %, and actual hit chance.
-Caster parsing, max damage vs mr etc
______________________________________________
Resists

-"There was no difference in paralyzing earth landing on 45 mr as there was on 90mr." MR Scaling

Tested using VZ/TZ Code ( If you don't use their casting code this can be a cross reference, Started testing tonight, looking through the database code so i can compile each spell under the same test if it has the same formula) 02/04/2011

Engulfing Roots 100 casts. Level 50 Druid root *(MR)*

25 MR 8% resists / 100 casts
35 MR 17% Resists / 100 casts
45 MR 16% Resists / 100 Casts
55 MR 23% Resists / 100 Casts
75 MR 33% Resists / 100 Casts
100 MR 38% Resists / 100 Casts
125 MR 52% Resists / 100 Casts
145 MR 68% Resists / 100 casts
170 MR 72% Resists / 100 Casts

Any MR Based nuke i tested had the same sort of scale with resisting, it seems every resist check has the same modifier,

As an example, i don't think with 170MR i should resist MR nukes constantly, at the same time, with 170MR i don't think i should be getting hit by root.


Lava bolt testing, *(FR)*

25 FR 2% Resists / 100 Casts
50 FR 20% Resists / 100 Casts
85 FR 41% Resists / 100 Casts
125 FR 49% Resists / 100 Casts

170 FR 62% Resists 26% of the remaining 38% were partial resists / 100 Casts

( Most hits partial hits for 200, spell hits for 500 normally ish )

Again, the same sort of resist check applies with fire, every fire nuke on each class has the same resist rate after 100 casts.

Poison Resist test


Ebolt *(PR)*


30 PR 6% Resists / 100 Casts
85 PR 44% Resists / 100 Casts
170 PR 62% resists / 100 Casts


Plague *(DR)* ( Tested highest possible DR, nobody is getting anywhere near 170 in classic so assumed testing was pretty much pointless)

170 DR 54% Resists / 100 Casts


Cold resist nukes provided almost identical numbers to every other resist check.

Ice *(CR)*

30 CR 7% Resists / 100 casts
100 CR 46% Resists / 100 casts
170 CR 59% Resists / 100 Casts

All of the tests done were level 50 nuking a level 50 - the resists came from buffs/ summoned items.

It seems to me that all spells have the same resist check, no matter what i cast from the same school of magic i get the same numbers. Root is the only spell that was marginally resisted more than other spells.

The sample of 100 spell casts isn't optimal, but it paints a picture when all of the spells are in the same ball park after the same amount of casts.


______________________________________________
Known Issues


______________________________________________


Known issues is a difficult one until we get a dev server to test on, alot of the things that happened on vz/tz for example casting bind sight on corpses crashing zones, may not happen here, so that's pending testing.

If any of the devs here feel this post is inappropriate please delete it, i assumed that this was what you were requesting from the thread when i read it.

Again, only reply to this thread with concerns for pvp balancing, known issues with resists and actual tests you've carried out on p99.

For now this is just for reference ofcourse, we're not asking devs to go out and test the "Questions" here, we'll do the testing for you.

[Lasher]

-Hit box, how close you need to be to hit smeone or get hit by someone
-Did different races have smaller or bigger hit boxes
-Rog's degree of angle to land a Back stab
-Being able to shoot arrows out of your ass
-If you had money on your cursor when being Pked your plat would not be able to be looted
-Clerics not getting stun bash till luclin
-I hear mage bolts on p99 are really slow and might able to be out ran
-At one point soe made all resist debuffs do 150% in pvp compared to PVE

These are all issues that need to be considered.Some stuff will need to be decided by community feedback or by the dev. People will try and tell you on live in 1999 that they resisted root with 110mr 80% of the time but its just bull because they are just making up a % that they are comfortable with. I would almost say a resist formula is going to need to be created. VZTZ resist forumla sucked and from what I read about p99 resist on dark blue mobs theirs might needs some work too. Alot of this is going to be need to be tested and tweaked until you hear minimum bitching from casters and melee.

I see the levitate vs Z axis is already being discussed. I think its needs to be compromised where both sides feel its fair. Melee shouldnt have unlimited z axis range but melee should have a certain distance to be able to hit floating casters. One suggestion is take the average distance that an offensive spell is and set that as the z axis range for melee. If a caster can cast on the melee then the melee can hit them. But if the caster is high in the air and just trying to run away i dont think a melee should have a huge z axis range

[Foxx]

pets did not zone with players until the patch July 14th, 2004 (zam patch history)

charm shouldn't work on any pets, or players for that matter. Neither should fear.

A huge problem I saw on emu pvp, is players and pets being able to hit other plays (and mobs for that matter) through walls. This needs to be looked at.

Also, I don't like how easy it is to AE rain zone lines. On EQlive, AE spells hit everyone -- including ALL other players, even in the same guild or group. This should deffinetly be implemented.

--as far as gameplay mechanics and resists go, I can't comment on anything since I have not played any pvp on the p99 server

[Foxx]

-Hit box, how close you need to be to hit smeone or get hit by someone
-Did different races have smaller or bigger hit boxes
-Rog's degree of angle to land a Back stab
-Being able to shoot arrows out of your ass
-If you had money on your cursor when being Pked your plat would not be able to be looted
-Clerics not getting stun bash till luclin
-I hear mage bolts on p99 are really slow and might able to be out ran

player hit boxes were all equal as far as I know

rog had a 180 degree angle to land backstab, as long as they were in anyway behind the player, backstab would work. This is how it should be. If its possible to impliment higher % chance to do more damage the better your angle, i dont care honestly (a career rogue, like fiegi, could give you a deffinite answer how it worked)

arrows should 100% require visual LOS to use.

currently on P99 if you die with money on your cursor, it dies with your corpse. you do NOT respawn with it

clerics should not get stun bash, even tho I wish we did. =(

no idea about mage bolts

[Lasher]

it was not 180 degrees. Because if someone put their back the wall you had to get bhind them to bs them and if it was 180 you would be able to bs them from the side.

[Foxx]

update... dwarf clerics on P99 currently get the bash ability, while other cleric races do not.

this doesnt mean anything on p99, but on a pvp server its huge for obvious reasons

[Lasher]

--Balance--
Should golem wands in/out recharagable?

[Lasher]

--Balance--
Should murky vial in/out? CUrrently in on p99

[Foxx]

--Balance--
Should golem wands in/out recharagable?

A+ point... also, big thing. the item "Egg-Shaped Pumice"

it was during classic, kunark and velious, 5-charge INSTA cast version of the regular pumice. Anyone know what it is like on p99, or if it even drops / is in the database? and huge balance issue if this should be part of a red99 server

[yaaaflow]

Thought you guys wanted Red99? It shouldnt be balanced at all, it should be pvp just as it was in 99 no?

[Lasher]

even p99 isnt just like it was in 1999. Things have been altered or left out or competely changed. Is the quilmane spawn like it was 1999?

[yaaaflow]

Fine then, the closest the devs can get it to how it was in 99? none of this "oh egg-shaped pumice shouldn't be in" or spells only doing 2/3rds damage in pvp or any of that junk?

PvP at release was broken as fuck, shouldn't that be the goal of this too?

[Lasher]

Why do you care. The devs balance p99. Ring of the dead on live was clickable by all but a dev made a comment that that would be to powerful for an item to be on p99 that many didnt have on live

[Bombfist]

The entire reason for this thread is to give input on how the server should be, as requested by the devs for our input. Through playing pvp for a while alot of the playerbase knows what's retarded and have suggestions on how vz/tz could have been better.

Give it a rest, I've posted this out of the rant and flame section for specific input on certain issues with pvp and known bugs in game, alot of testing needs to be done to go from AC not working and MR not doing anything on a pvp server, if you think instant cast pumice stones aren't an issue in pvp then you have no place in this thread.

[Foxx]

Fine then, the closest the devs can get it to how it was in 99? none of this "oh egg-shaped pumice shouldn't be in" or spells only doing 2/3rds damage in pvp or any of that junk?

PvP at release was broken as fuck, shouldn't that be the goal of this too?

so much of this game was broken in 99, and fixed for reasons. pathing bugs were all removed, and they arent on p99... if u put in pathing bugs from real everquest, ill have an account of 50s in a week. shit, even 60, I knew a pathing bug in chardok and in city of mist that would allow me to cast and melee mobs while standing still and be never be touched.

anyway, I respect your opinion and all from p99 server who have a concern in red99 and want input. but this thread was in off-topic for a reason, not the troll/flame forum.

[Salty]

-cleric bash

[Isidro]

I'll try and test out some of those issues listed tomorrow. I know fear and charm do not work on other players in a pvp setting on p99. I believe fear does work on players' pets though.

Should be pretty easy to come up with some answers on z-axis stuff, attacking through walls, ranger arrows, and things like that.

[wehrmacht]

-Hit box, how close you need to be to hit smeone or get hit by someone


This was a big issue on TZVZ and made it so you couldn't even hit people running away from you when I played. Don't remember if it was ever fixed.


-Did different races have smaller or bigger hit boxes


I have some experience with games and if it was me doing it, I would create a boundry box around the NPC as a guide that extends in each direction until the character was fully enclosed but no farther. This original boundry box would serve as a collision detection marker. Then I would just define the hit box by making it X amount of units past the collision detection box in each direction. So yea, each race would have the same values for hit box, but the hit box would be based off distance from their collision box in an ideal world.

If you just want to input a flat variable based off the distance of the center of the polygon model, I'm sure you could get someone to load macroquest and log on EQ live and figure out what these values should be using distance commands to check using trial and error.

I'm not really sure what macroquest uses as a base point to determine distance though, if it's the actual center of the character or just some random pivot point or some random spot on the characters head.




-Rog's degree of angle to land a Back stab


edit: I would use 178degrees max and 160 degrees minimum.



-Should pets zone should they not. "pets did not zone with players until the patch July 14th, 2004"


Don't think this is that big of an issue if pets are nerfed down to be their actual HP and attack values during the time period. (no, not original day 1 necro pets that quadded for 100 or whatever). Nobody would play pet casters if they didn't zone.


-Should spells require LoS start and finish of cast,


Yes. In the first expansion, melee damage is gimp so I don't think it's that big of a deal if casters have to deal with line of sight as a trade off for much better burst DPS. Once kunark comes out, there are fast casting wizard draughts and faster mage nukes so it's way less of an issue then. If you remove the "melee better in dungeons and casters better outside" dynamic, then it just wouldn't be EQ either.


-Should bards ench be able to charm poof mage pets


Mez yes, charm possibly, poof no.


-Levitate Z Axis issues


Define hit box based on what I said above and there is no issue. You wouldn't be able to hit infinite Z axis then and that's the way it's supposed to be.


-Fear/Charm/Whirl to you hurl are all spells that need looking at.


Are you trying to claim that whirl till you hurl should be a PvP usable spell and people are just supposed to stand there stunned for like 20 seconds straight? I hope you're joking


-"There was no difference in paralyzing earth landing on 45 mr as there was on 90mr." MR Scaling


During EQ Classic, Kunark, and Velious on live PvP servers, I don't ever remember being rooted with 100 or more MR. The resist system for this PvP server should be done the same way and if casters aren't good enough, just apply negative resist modifiers to only their damage spells.

[Macken]

Melee and spell range should apply to all axiis.

If i can't hit you with my sword when you are standing 10 ft away, I should not be able to magically hit you as you do a 15 ft summersault over my head.

If i am standing over the chasm in the Overthere and you are running below me at the base of the cliff, I should not be able to Sunstrike you from 10,000 ft above you.

Not even sure if this is an issue, but it was on Melee's Paradise aka. VZTZ.

[KilyenaMage]

Did any GMs ask you to make this thread?

Again...the sense of entitlement is truly astounding.

[Macken]

Yes. In the first expansion, melee damage is gimp so I don't think it's that big of a deal if casters have to deal with line of sight as a trade off for much better burst DPS. Once kunark comes out, there are fast casting wizard draughts and faster mage nukes so it's way less of an issue then. If you remove the "melee better in dungeons and casters better outside" dynamic, then it just wouldn't be EQ either.

Smedy has already warned the GM's about this. If you are a GM and read the above hilarity, do not be trolled.


EQ is Melee oriented through Velious and beyond. If you want to be a top pvper, roll melee. Because if you roll a caster, there is no way to be a top pkr past week 3, unless you have played alot...even then... it would be tough.

There is no dungeon that a caster could win a fight in with a LoS check at end of casting. It gets even worse in Kunark, which is why the above troll was over the top. Less is more when trolling Macht.

If you want to get rid of all casters, then you should just do it at the beginning instead of making them figure it out after 6 weeks of exping, then they quit.

All of the melee trolls in this and the other thread about their need to remain OP vs. casters will end the same way VZTZ did. You will have your time in the sun, but in the end, you will be playing alone. And this time, you won't have anyone to buff or port you because we are all melees now.

[Bombfist]

Did any GMs ask you to make this thread?

Again...the sense of entitlement is truly astounding.


The problem is, Project 1999 code isn't ready to handle wide scale pvp. There are numerous issues with the pvp combat at the moment that need to be worked out.. and where to begin I wouldn't even know. That's where you guys come in.. to start making notes on what needs to be fixed in pvp on the current server (via dueling or arena fights).

Kilyena, vacate my thread.

Are you trying to claim that whirl till you hurl should be a PvP usable spell and people are just supposed to stand there stunned for like 20 seconds straight? I hope you're joking

Wehrmact, read the OP.

The post suggests that the spells need looking at since we don't know how they function on P99 code.

Again, we're not asking questions, this is a list of items/suggestions that need testing, i'm not asking for peoples opinion here, we're asking for issues that need testing and then it's up to the devs what they do with the server.

[Bombfist]

I'll try and test out some of those issues listed tomorrow. I know fear and charm do not work on other players in a pvp setting on p99. I believe fear does work on players' pets though.

Should be pretty easy to come up with some answers on z-axis stuff, attacking through walls, ranger arrows, and things like that.

Thanks for the use of your chars Isidro, if you could PM me i'd be up for doing some testing for a few hours if you would be available.

[wehrmacht]

If you want to be a top pvper, roll melee. Because if you roll a caster, there is no way to be a top pkr past week 3, unless you have played alot...even then... it would be tough.

First off, this statement is completely false because anyone that played Sullon Zek from day 1 will remember the top of the scoreboard was nothing but casters until the day the scoreboard shut down. Druids with tracking and Darkenbane wizards with tracking would sneak up on people all day and blow them away with spells. The server came out when Velious was max expansion just like this server.

Classes like monks were completely useless for PvP due to having barely any access to resist gear whatosever and no 2h access either. I think I had like 70 magic resist while fighting in karnors at level 58 and I was in the best guild on the server. There wasn't jacinth jewelery and tstaffs falling out of the sky like on TZVZ. I think a druid could cast damage shield on themselves, spam self heal and kill a h2h monk with no buffs or haste. Sure a monk with Tstaff is overpowered but you can camp one for 6 months straight and not see one on real EQ. Rogue is the same way, terrible for pvp without epic. Even if they get an epic, anyone that isn't retarded and can use a 2h still rapes them.

I think you people underestimate how awful melee damage is with no buffs or haste (which will be the norm for a no bot server). On TZVZ, strength didn't do anything and the max damage multiplier was set to a fixed value of like 4.5 or 5.0. For an unbuffed human, dark elf, etc, that multiplier will be like a 3.0 on this server. So yea, you're already looking at an enormous damage reduction for anyone not playing a raid geared ogre, troll, or barb.


There is no dungeon that a caster could win a fight in with a LoS check at end of casting. It gets even worse in Kunark, which is why the above troll was over the top. Less is more when trolling Macht.

For LoS, casters had no problem whatsoever pvp'ing in Karnors and Sebillis was a nightmare for anyone to PvP in regardless of their class.




All of the melee trolls in this and the other thread about their need to remain OP vs. casters will end the same way VZTZ did. You will have your time in the sun, but in the end, you will be playing alone. And this time, you won't have anyone to buff or port you because we are all melees now.

You do know that epic mage pets could solo warriors in kunark right? And necros cast 2700 damage dots that land basically every time?

There are only 3 offensive casters in game: wiz, mage, and necro

All three of those do fine during Kunark and velious. I'll admit sending an epic mage pet then running away and hiding doesn't sound all that fun but whatever, it gets the job done.

[nilbog]

I'm gonna go ahead and say this now. If you cherry pick content issues that you claim are wrong without providing anything to the contrary in any effort to bolster some NON-related issue .. it's irritating.

even p99 isnt just like it was in 1999. Things have been altered or left out or competely changed. Is the quilmane spawn like it was 1999?

You tell me. Bug report it if you know something I don't.

Why do you care. The devs balance p99. Ring of the dead on live was clickable by all but a dev made a comment that that would be to powerful for an item to be on p99 that many didnt have on live

Why is this in a pvp thread? I'm the only dev that looked into that quest.. and made it possible do at all. Since it couldn't conclusively be deemed clickable from inventory.. it wasn't changed. None of these people owned one on live still? Not a single one.. sounds so common.

Anyways, I abhor... fucking strawman arguments. I love pvp, but this has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[nilbog]

Legitimate PVP bugs need to be fixed. I would still like to eventually do some Best of the Best fights.. and /duels should work properly regardless of server.

Issues changed simply to balance a possible future pvp server.. are off topic, and need their own place.

So.. we need 2 different lists. General PVP bugs, and pvp issues deemed in need of change, for a pvp server to work better.

Please have it consolidated, and outlined into what needs fixed for /duels and botb on p99, and what are deemed possible proprietary (albeit non-classic) changes needed to balance a pvp-only server.

[Lasher]

The intent isnt trying to cherry pick content. Everything is up to the devs final decision. Bombfist and I are just trying to bring issues up that we think need to be considered.

Fear//charm. We arent saying it should or shouldnt be in. What we are saying is the dev need to consider it. 1999 fear and charm worked on pc's. Bard fear worked on pc up into kunark. The Dev on live eq eventually learned that it was a broken feature in pvp and removed. Maybe you will decide to leave it until a certain point or never put it in.

I made those comments because some guy was saying it shouldnt be balanced, it shuld be 1999 and maybe its true but there are a few things that left in game because it was in 1999 would break the game. Start of server you could loot weapons off people eventually that was change. Also start of server if you /consented a person that person could loot all your items.Start of server wolf form made you unkos to most and was usable in dungeons eventually that was nerfed

You can respond with asking me to give you dates to support what i said above but its not the point. With or with out proof of what i said above i think we can all agree there are few issues that we all know that were in 1999 that should be considered being put in because it was eventually taken out because it was deemed broken or an exploit or what ever.

[Bombfist]

Nilbog the aim i have here is to tackle pvp issues that are actually a problem with the current p99 code, if you can read the opening thread those are the issues for the most part i want to test, i've added some questions in there that people have raised int his thread, but the most important part for me is testing issues with AC/resists.

Parsing is what's important and getting actual facts from tests, that's what the OP will be for when i've actually got a chance to do proper testing.

I think lasher is simply replying to people who continually attempt to troll any pvp thread into the RnF bin, his argument is that the aim would be not to make everything 100% like it was on classic, and from a pvp point of view it would be ridiculous to ignore the changes that were made later on, that were obvious improvements.

The opening post will be consolidated into what's been tested and what's outstanding, it's currently in a state of information gathering so i know what needs testing to provide you with as much information as possible.

On a side note alot of the pvp "idea's" would be down to your preference nilbog, or whoever was to head whatever might happen or will, i simply wanted to make a thread to troubleshoot where rogean requested notes on pvp etc, so the most part of this thread will just be parse information along with tested encounters to find obvious pvp flaws, line of sight casting etc.

After i've done some testing, directing your attention to the opening post will eventually end up being productive since too many people from this community find an urge to troll every single thread made about pvp.

[tj218]

It was probably 160 at the max to avoid some kind of side strafing exploit BS'ing. I think 160 would probably be the best value overall..

Bah, I don't have the data, but on live during Kunark and before, I remember joust fights where I (as a Rouge) would land backstabs on the pass. In fact I remember practicing this for hours with a friend to get my timing right. It was always 180 degrees....

[Isidro]

PM'd you, bombfist.

[mimixownzall]

-Hit box, how close you need to be to hit smeone or get hit by someone
-Did different races have smaller or bigger hit boxes
-Rog's degree of angle to land a Back stab
-Being able to shoot arrows out of your ass
-If you had money on your cursor when being Pked your plat would not be able to be looted
-Clerics not getting stun bash till luclin
-I hear mage bolts on p99 are really slow and might able to be out ran
-At one point soe made all resist debuffs do 150% in pvp compared to PVE

These are all issues that need to be considered.Some stuff will need to be decided by community feedback or by the dev. People will try and tell you on live in 1999 that they resisted root with 110mr 80% of the time but its just bull because they are just making up a % that they are comfortable with. I would almost say a resist formula is going to need to be created. VZTZ resist forumla sucked and from what I read about p99 resist on dark blue mobs theirs might needs some work too. Alot of this is going to be need to be tested and tweaked until you hear minimum bitching from casters and melee.

I see the levitate vs Z axis is already being discussed. I think its needs to be compromised where both sides feel its fair. Melee shouldnt have unlimited z axis range but melee should have a certain distance to be able to hit floating casters. One suggestion is take the average distance that an offensive spell is and set that as the z axis range for melee. If a caster can cast on the melee then the melee can hit them. But if the caster is high in the air and just trying to run away i dont think a melee should have a huge z axis range

On live root/snare never landed if you had 100mr or more (on someone close to your level). NEVER. The only root that would land is the talent one mages got with AA's.

Cleric nukes were later ballanced out a bit vs MR to be more lenient. But this wasnt until like 2002 or 03.

[mimixownzall]

Smedy has already warned the GM's about this. If you are a GM and read the above hilarity, do not be trolled.


EQ is Melee oriented through Velious and beyond. If you want to be a top pvper, roll melee. Because if you roll a caster, there is no way to be a top pkr past week 3, unless you have played alot...even then... it would be tough.

There is no dungeon that a caster could win a fight in with a LoS check at end of casting. It gets even worse in Kunark, which is why the above troll was over the top. Less is more when trolling Macht.

If you want to get rid of all casters, then you should just do it at the beginning instead of making them figure it out after 6 weeks of exping, then they quit.

All of the melee trolls in this and the other thread about their need to remain OP vs. casters will end the same way VZTZ did. You will have your time in the sun, but in the end, you will be playing alone. And this time, you won't have anyone to buff or port you because we are all melees now.

Uh... what? Wizards ruled SZ through Velious at least. The top PVPers were wizards. I beg that the 40% rule be removed until Manaburn/Lifeburn (if it ever gets to SoL) like it was on classic. These hard hitting spells are very situational and most of the time can be LoS'd or ran out of range by time it goes off.

Please don't run off casters with retarded resists and the stupid 40% rule.

[wehrmacht]

Please don't run off casters with retarded resists and the stupid 40% rule.

I don't know what you mean by 40% rule but spells did like 66% of normal damage. It isn't like that just to balance against melees but for caster vs caster PvP too. I don't know if you can call it PvP if 2 casters fighting results in someone getting one shoted every time. Necros are throwing around 2700 damage dots in kunark and shamans do 2200 damage bane of nife poison dots. Do you really think there should be no damage reduction and a necro dot or shaman poison dot should 1 shot kill almost every class in the game?

[Bombfist]

Opening post updated with tested information on p99

I won't parse on p99, the data will be too small to be of any value, we need a dev server to parse properly, the tests i can do for now with the characters Isidro kindly put forward is all i can do for now, if someone else has chars they can help with it would be appreciated, thanks again.

[Massive Marc]

Opening post updated with tested information on p99

I won't parse on p99, the data will be too small to be of any value, we need a dev server to parse properly, the tests i can do for now with the characters Isidro kindly put forward is all i can do for now, if someone else has chars they can help with it would be appreciated, thanks again.

Bomb,

Good job on all the work. Small suggestion for this thread.

When you update the main post, can you throw in dates of when you updated ?

[Bombfist]

Bomb,

Good job on all the work. Small suggestion for this thread.

When you update the main post, can you throw in dates of when you updated ?

Done, thanks.

Edit, everyone here is american, i happen to be from England, is the date format ok with you yanks? :)

[Massive Marc]

I think that is just fine man.
Thanks for accepting the input.

[Misto]

nice to see the pvp community actually testing ^^

[Macken]

Not sure if this is the correct time or place, but just in case it is....

First off, this statement is completely false because anyone that played Sullon Zek from day 1 will remember the top of the scoreboard was nothing but casters until the day the scoreboard shut down.



For LoS, casters had no problem whatsoever pvp'ing in Karnors and Sebillis was a nightmare for anyone to PvP in regardless of their class.


Cool story bro. Too bad for you, I happen to know intimately about SZ scoreboard. The only casters anywhere near the top were MQ'ing MB'ing wizards. When MB got nerfed, all the melees rose back up top where they had been before MB came out. For the majority of the board's lifetime and especially at the end, melees made up most of the top 10. And just in case you were wondering, it was an Sk at #1 when the board went down, his name was Iackey and he had over 110,000 points. Bring it bro.

If you are gonna make up crap, at least make it up about something no one else will know about.

Not to constantly call you out but reading your posts, you seem excruciatingly Monk centric. How would you know anything about playing a caster, especially as something as advanced as playing a pvp caster in a dungeon? Casters had no problem with LoS? Are you *#&$ing kidding? During Velious they tried the LoS check to finish a spell...for about 2 weeks... then they promptly changed it back... wonder why that was?

Let's just say melees don't need any more advantage over casters than they already historicly have, especially in a dungeon.

But waiting for you to turn from green to white in lguk at the raster spawn was fun.

[Massive Marc]

^ 4R&F bro.

[wehrmacht]

The only casters anywhere near the top were MQ'ing MB'ing wizards. When MB got nerfed, all the melees rose back up top where they had been before MB came out. For the majority of the board's lifetime and especially at the end, melees made up most of the top 10. And just in case you were wondering, it was an Sk at #1 when the board went down, his name was Iackey and he had over 110,000 points. Bring it bro.

Are you high on crack dude. We're talking about p1999 PvP server here. I obviously wasn't referring to any point on EQ live where manaburn was even in the game since that won't be a feature on a p1999 PvP server.

During the time period this server will represent on Sullon zek, the scoreboard was all Darkenbane casters and a few random people like some druid named "dharma" and "greg".

I don't think you or Xebeken or this Iackey guy that I've never heard of even played on Sullon Zek during the Kunark and Velious time period which is what this server will be.

All your complaints about melee seem based on playing PoP era against fully Vex Thal geared Tides of Wrath melee.

So here I am to tell you that in the real world, if this server was to actually emulate the Kunark era properly, most melee will be useless for a long time and a living hell to play for months.

[Macken]

^ 4R&F bro.

My sister sells Mary Kay. She needs a good secretary. You interested?

[Zephys]

Alright. help me out. Are we getting a red server? I haven't seen any official statements, but everyone seems to be freaking out about it.

[KilyenaMage]

Rexx, you're the best that EverQuest PvP has ever seen.

Your guild, Heresy, was the best PvP GUILD that EverQuest has ever seen.

Everything you say is correct, and from now on I pledge my allegiance to post in every thread you reply to, agreeing with you...calling you big Rexx...talking about your dunking skills...and referring you as the EverQuest PvP master.

Can I PLEASSSEEEEEE join Heresy on the new box now!?!?

[KilyenaMage]

Also...I find it **AMAZING** that someone let Rexx login to their account.

I **STRONGLY** suggest you change your PW after this is all done.

If he wasn't getting something for HIMSELF out of it, I guarantee he would strip your toon and delete it.

[Titanuk]

mad.com

[Bombfist]

A few nice things came from the testing, such as disarm working properly, if you look at the backstab picture from p99 you'll laugh i imagine, we tested disarm with full bags also to make sure the item didn't drop to the ground or something stupid.

If anyone has some items i can test reply here please, that's what this thread is for despite random morons posting nonsense.

[Macken]

Are you high on crack dude. We're talking about p1999 PvP server here. I obviously wasn't referring to any point on EQ live where manaburn was even in the game since that won't be a feature on a p1999 PvP server.

During the time period this server will represent on Sullon zek, the scoreboard was all Darkenbane casters and a few random people like some druid named "dharma" and "greg".

I don't think you or Xebeken or this Iackey guy that I've never heard of even played on Sullon Zek during the Kunark and Velious time period which is what this server will be.

All your complaints about melee seem based on playing PoP era against fully Vex Thal geared Tides of Wrath melee.

So here I am to tell you that in the real world, if this server was to actually emulate the Kunark era properly, most melee will be useless for a long time and a living hell to play for months.

Sorry bro, didn't mean to bring reality into your memory.

Fyi D&G were on the leader boards for all of 3 months or less, didn't realize you were just talking about the first 1/50th of SZ, my bad.

Don't know who this xebekn character is, But Iackey won SZ. Anyone who was anyone knows that.

[Macken]

Also, there is no such thing as SZ during the Kunark time period.

Also, the first 3 months of a server's inception casters will make up the top 10. I assumed everyone already knew this. You have confirmed it as true. I don't want anyone to confuse the first 3 months of the server as a barometer for pvp and make decisions based on fleeting conditions.

Sorry i keep interjecting reality into your false memories. I'll stop now.

[Macken]

Rexx, you're the best that EverQuest PvP has ever seen.

Your guild, Heresy, was the best PvP GUILD that EverQuest has ever seen.

Everything you say is correct, and from now on I pledge my allegiance to post in every thread you reply to, agreeing with you...calling you big Rexx...talking about your dunking skills...and referring you as the EverQuest PvP master.

Can I PLEASSSEEEEEE join Heresy on the new box now!?!?

Blueberry Jelly is mmm mmm good!

[Bombfist]

Does anybody here have an enchanter / mage so we can test whirl and bolts please.

[Misto]

yes. <- mage

go hang yourself

Edit: With 70% more love

[Bombfist]

I'm 70% more aroused.

[Bombfist]

Minor MR testing done, updated - we need some characters to test with, willing to put the work in but access without me levelling up 10 characters is very limited.

[Bombfist]

Tested all resist schools on VZ/TZ - as a cross reference if anything, all schools of magic seem to have the same resist with that code, with root a slightly higher MR check with 72% resist chance.

[Isidro]

So I had some free time today. I pulled up the patch archive and put all the pvp changes that have happened up to OoW together. I did it up to OoW expansion because that's what Titanium goes up to and it seems like most of those patches are in effect on P99. I'll post the changes here so people can see them. Inc wall of text.

September 13, 1999

PVP Changes:
- In order to make PVP combat between spellcasters and melee types more
viable some changes to PVP spell effects have been made. All damage
spells cast in PVP combat will do less damage to the PC than the same
spell would do to an NPC. When a PC is under the effect of a root-type
spell there is a 20% chance that they will break free when a direct
damage spell is cast upon them.

September 28, 1999

- Pet damage inflicted during PvP combat has been slightly reduced.

December 21, 1999

- In addition, it is now possible to cast Cancel Magic on non-grouped
players on the PvP and PvP-teams servers.

February 3, 2000 8:00 am

*PvP-Teams Change*

Customers on the PvP-Teams servers have been plagued by a tactic known
as "Bind Rushing". Casters would bind themselves in a hostile area or
dungeon, and attack everyone of an opposing race in the area. Sooner or
later the caster would die. They would then respawn, memorize a few
spells, then jump back in to attack their wounded opponents.

As a first step in combating this practice and improving life for those
on the PvP-Servers, casters will now respawn with zero mana after being
killed by another player in a duel or open combat.

This code is new for those on Tallon and Vallon Zek. It has been in
place for some time on Rallos Zek and works very well there.

February 23, 2000

- Being killed by another player in a duel will now cause you to re-
spawn with zero mana.

March 29, 2000

- Area Effect "Fear" spells will no longer work in PvP. This affects a
bard song, as well as the Cleric "Wave of Fear" spell.

February 21, 2001 3:00 am

- Due to the recent improvements to "Harmtouch", it is doing much
more damage than it would before and unbalances PvP. As such it will
now do less damage in PvP (68% of PvE, down from 80%). In addition,
Shadowknights on the PvP servers were routinely killing themselves via
non-XP losing means and attacking other players with Harmtouch
immediately upon respawn. In order to address this situation, Harmtouch
is no longer automatically "recharged" by death on the PvP Servers.

May 8, 2001 3:00 am

** PvP changes **

We have made the first of our upcoming changes to the PvP aspects of
EverQuest:

- Consider: /Consider will only have three results when used to
consider a Player Character. The character will show as 'green' if he
is below the range that allows you to attack him. The character will
show as 'white/black' if he is within your ability to attack. And the
character will show as 'red' if he is above your range. This will only
take effect on PvP servers.

- Sanctuary Levels: Characters below level six will not be able to
engage in PvP combat, unless they take part in a Guild War, duel or use
the Arena. This will, obviously, only take place on PvP servers.

- De-Leveling: Characters that lose levels will only retain the combat
skills of a character two levels higher. This means that if a character
of level 10 somehow loses 5 levels, that character will only have
skills that would be available to a 7th level character. This change
will apply to all servers (it has to, code-wise). So the two level
buffer is there to make certain that people that lose levels during
normal gameplay will be minimally affected (hopefully not affected at
all), while those that purposefully lose levels with the intent of
causing other players grief will find themselves at no great advantage.

May 31, 2001 2:00 am

- Resist-debuffs will do 1.5 times their normal value for PvP
encounters. In other words, if the spell did -60MR in PvP before, it
does -90MR in PvP now. PvE (combat versus NPCs) remains unaffected.
- Faction-loss for PvP kills on Vallon and Tallon now only occur
against factions within the hometown of the person killed. In other
words, if you kill an Erudite in Erudin, you will only lose faction
with the factions in Erudin, not the factions in Paineel.
- Turning in the Tomb of Order and Discord will have no effect on
Vallon and Tallon.
- On all PvP servers, only the person who gets the killing-blow in PvP
combat will have looting rights. We would prefer to implement some sort
of "majority damage" logic however this should solve most of the issues
associated with uninvolved players "ninja-looting" the loser in PvP
encounters.

June 27, 2001 3:00 am

** PvP Changes **

- If you go link dead on a PvP server and are killed you can still be
looted.

- When a player becomes invisible (or hides successfully) every other
player that had them targeted will lose their target. This is true for
all servers, but has the greatest implications on PvP servers. The use
of spells that allow you to see through invisibility will prevent you
from losing your target if that target hides or goes invisible.

- Faction hits on Rallos Zek: Killing a person in one of his or her
home cities will cause a faction hit with residents of that city.

July 24, 2001 3:00 am

** Changes to Sullon Zek **

- There are no faction hits for killing half-elves in any city.
- If an Erudite of Paineel is killed in Paineel the killer takes a
faction hit (existing rule).
- If an Erudite of Erudin is killed in Erudin the killer takes a
faction hit (new rule).
- Bards can't cast harmful spells on boats.
- If a character kills a higher level character, the higher level
character will always lose experience. This is in addition to the fact
that any player killed within the + or - 5 level range will lose
experience.
- Goods and Neutrals will now be able to turn in Greater Insignias for
a Magician only summon corpse potion usable only at levels over 45th.
- Characters under level 6 will no longer be immune to PvP in many
adventure zones. Players will be notified when they enter such zones.

August 15, 2001 3:00 am

** Sullon Zek Changes **

- Changed the way resists are calculated when a Player Character casts
a spell on another Player Character on Sullon Zek. Resist modifiers
based on level will now be more smoothly distributed and will allow
lower level characters a slightly better chance to land spells on
higher level characters. At the same time giving lower level characters
a slightly better chance to resist spells cast on them by higher level
characters.
- Characters below 6th level cannot be pick pocketed in any zone.
- Guards have a better chance of aggro'ing a rogue that fails at
picking pockets near guards.

November 7, 2001

** PvP Server Related **

- Guards, when seeing PCs in combat, will now attack the one that they
like the least (the one with the lowest appropriate faction). If all
the PCs involved are highly regarded (have very high faction) the
guards will allow them to resolve their own issues without interfering.

- Guards should also refrain from attacking PCs that are attacked by
pets of any sort.

- Sullon Zek now has an across the board experience bonus of 20%, and
the experience loss on all deaths on Sullon Zek is now 50% less.

December 4, 2001 6:00 am

** PvP Changes **

- PVP looting will now display to the group.

- Empty corpses will no longer disappear when looted by an enemy
player, they will decay at the normal rate for empty corpses.

- Guards in 'guard zones', such as cities, will continue to protect
characters that they find the least offensive (the one with the highest
faction). But guards in outdoor zones will be less likely to join in a
fight. They will only come to the aid of people that they like.
Otherwise they will not get involved in PvP combat.

- Etched Peridot of Nature will be removed from all locations,
including those held by players on their characters or in their banks.
This item was not intended to be available until Shadows of Luclin went
live, and then only in Luclin zones.

December 10, 2001 3:00 am

- AoE fear spells will no longer work versus players on PvP Servers.

January 23, 2002 3:00 am

** PvP **

- It is no longer possible to bandage others of the opposing deity team
on Sullon Zek

July 24, 2002

** PvP **

- Fixed a bug on Tallon and Vallon Zek that made player characters in
non-human illusions immune to ranged attacks.
- It is no longer possible for PC's to fear other PC's at all on any
server. The same was also done for charm.
- Pets can no longer be affected by charm spells. This should fix the
issue that caused charm spells to make pets disappear.
- NPCs who are pets of players and call for help from other NPCs will
have their cries fall on deaf ears.

September 26, 2002 3:00 am

** PvP Servers and Gameplay **

- The recent resist changes have been adjusted for PvP. They will not
be exactly as they were prior to the resist change, but they should be
reasonable now. Please let us know if you feel they need further
adjustment.
- Player characters will no longer lose experience in the Arena areas
on the Sullon Zek server.
- A player character can no longer tell his pet to attack another
player's horse when not on a PvP area or in a duel.
- Kael, Skyshrine, and Thurgadin on Sullon Zek no longer have the
newbie protection code active.
- Players should once again be able to use level-restricted clickable
buffs on the Sullon Zek server.

February 4, 2003

** PvP **

- Fixed a bug with Root and Snare spells that prevented the target
player character from being affected until they zoned.
- Fixed a bug with mesmerization spells being unbreakable by normal
means.

April 8, 2003 3:00 am

** PvP **

- If a player is moving when using archery against a PvP target, they
have a reduced chance to hit their target.
- Archery in Player vs. Player combat in now reduced to 66% damage.
- Direct Damage spells in Player vs. Player combat can only do up to
75% damage of the target's maximum hit points in a single hit. This
modification is done before resists are taken into account. For
example, if a player has 1000 hit points when fully healed, no single
direct damage spell will do more than 750 damage to him in a single
hit.

August 11, 2004


PvP Changes
- Melee attacks have a 50% increased range. This does not affect thrown
weapons or archery.
- All safe zones have been removed save Shadowrest and the Bazaar.
- The maximum damage any one spell can do is now capped at 40% of the
target’s total hit points, down from 75%.
- Archery damage has been increased to 80% of its base damage in PvP,
up from 66%.
- Being stunned while on a horse will now cause the horse to disappear.
This only applies to stuns caused by other players.
- Lowered player melee mitigation, effectively lowering Armor Class by
20%. This will increase the damage potential of melee weapons in PvP.
Originally the targets full armor class was considered.
- Player spells now have a separate duration field for PvP. Individual spells will continue to be tuned during beta.
- Player spells now have a PvP specific resist mod. Spell lines with
resist mods differing from their normal adjusts initially include:
Movement Rate
Root
Enthrall
Mana Drain
Stuns
Direct Damage
Damage over Time
Pet procs/innates
- Added higher level snare spells for rangers/druids with increased
resists mods. This should allow them to land snare spells with similar
frequency to other snare spells. These spells are available on the PvP
merchants for 1 point each.
- Necro and Mage pets have had their PvP resists increased to closer
match the existing Beastlord pet resists.
- Lowered the duration of most snare, Enthrall, and Root spells and
abilities.
- Berserker snare is no longer unresistable.
- Added a set of pumice stones to the PvP merchants that will cast
various forms of dispel magic with a 1.5 second cast, 12 second cast
time.
- Arena deaths will now place you at your bind point, and not in
shadowrest.
- PvP Resurrection effects now last 5 minutes + 1 minute/negative
vitality point. The Max duration is now 15 minutes instead of 25.
- Made further changes to prevent hill ghosting. Please test this and
give feedback.
- Ranged weapons are no longer restricted by the Z axis, allowing
greater freedom of use on varied terrain.
- Snare will now properly slow mounts. The mount will still be faster
then normal running while snared, but will considerably decrease their
movement rate.
- Spells now have a minimum chance of landing of 5%, up from 2%.
- Water will no longer cause you to be immune to people outside of
water and vice versa.
- Zoning with low health will no longer set your hit points equal to
the amount of +HP gear you are wearing.
- Players killed in PvP combat will now spawn in Shadowrest with full
equipment. A naked corpse will remain in the location they died for 3
hours. Note that this effectively removes item loot from Rallos Zek.
With the addition of no drop augments it became rather trivial to
effectively remove item loot from the server anyway, and we felt the
benefits of the new death system outweigh the benefits of an item loot
system.
- Players who are killed in PvP combat will respawn with special
resurrection effects on them. The duration of these effects is variable
dependant on how frequently they die.
- Summon Corpse Potions are now usable by any class/race.

My eyes are pretty tired right now but there are a handful of things that would obviously need to be changed if your aim is for the pvp on p99 to be as close to classic as possible.

A few examples:
- HT should do 80% of the dmg it does in PvE (it might already, i have no way to check)
- Players should be able to fear and charm other PCs in a PvP setting.
- Charming another player's pet should cause it to poof.
- There should be no cap for the % of a targets health that DD spells do. (have to check, but I'm pretty sure there is a cap on p99)
- Melee hitboxes probably need to be reduced, they seem extra big so I'm guessing the 50% increase patch is in effect on p99.

I'll stop there for now. Some feedback from the devs would be nice as I don't know if this is the type of info you are looking for.

[Bombfist]

Not much more i can test without input on what is actually needed/wanted.

We have a coder in Null, interested in this project, who has all of the source from box 2.0, where alot of the community agree the resists were close to what people want.

Null is probably the best coder vz/tz ever saw, and alot will agree it's nice to have his interest in things, we will just have to see where things progress from here.

[Terpuntine]

Not much more i can test without input on what is actually needed/wanted.

We have a coder in Null, interested in this project, who has all of the source from box 2.0, where alot of the community agree the resists were close to what people want.

Null is probably the best coder vz/tz ever saw, and alot will agree it's nice to have his interest in things, we will just have to see where things progress from here.

Agreed, Null was easily one of the best the server ever had. If Null was on board with the new project big things would happen for certain.

*Fingers Crossed*

[Foxx]

null is deffinetly great, and would be great for any server to have him on there side. Bein optimistic with this post and news that Null is interested in helping the out with a future pvp server.

im with terp on this one and crossing my fingers, hoping to hear soon if there is a future or not in emu pvp

[wehrmacht]

where alot of the community agree the resists were close to what people want.


Bullshit, put up a poll about it.

"What resists would you rather have"

1) Resist root 99% of the time with 100-120 MR like normal EQ live during this era but different resists for damage spells

or

2) Resist root 52% of the time with 125MR like TZVZ

Warriors could crippling blow for 1000 damage with an exe axe on TZVZ for a while because Daxum added it. How much stupid TZVZ stuff do you want to add?

[Salty]

Not much more i can test without input on what is actually needed/wanted.

We have a coder in Null, interested in this project, who has all of the source from box 2.0, where alot of the community agree the resists were close to what people want.

Null is probably the best coder vz/tz ever saw, and alot will agree it's nice to have his interest in things, we will just have to see where things progress from here.

Null did good work

[Bombfist]

Bullshit, put up a poll about it.

"What resists would you rather have"

1) Resist root 99% of the time with 100-120 MR like normal EQ live during this era but different resists for damage spells

or

2) Resist root 52% of the time with 125MR like TZVZ

Those aren't the resists numbers from 2.0, stop being a moron, the rest of the world has discovered that talking to you is pointless, leave the thread.

I'm talking to coders, testing code and talking to null about server possibility's, all you do is rant and rave about root.

[wehrmacht]

Those aren't the resists numbers from 2.0, stop being a moron, the rest of the world has discovered that talking to you is pointless, leave the thread.

I'm talking to coders, testing code and talking to null about server possibility's, all you do is rant and rave about root.

This is so stupid it hurts. Repeat after me, TZVZ was a failed server. It's population was like 50-100, it only hit 300 after Salty mass zerg recruited by sending out electronic robo calls. If EQ classic PvP was done normally with small adjustments here and there, you could easily have 500-1000 people but not with TZVZ rules and resists.

You can give 0 explanation whatsoever for why you think crowd control spells should land. 10 out of 14 classes get them. All 3 hybrids that get them are already overpowered for PvP on EQ live. Necros and wizards kill people easily as well. Shaman casts -45 resist malo and 2k+ poison dot, that doesn't look underpowered to me.

What game mechanic needs to be changed that is solved by having 10 classes casting crowd control spells? You can't even name what the hell it is. It doesn't affect casters that much since they can just spam gate if they get rooted and see a zerg coming to kill them. All this stupid change does is make all melees free kills anytime someone wants to zerg rush them spamming root.

There is 0 reason to choose a pure melee at character select screen unless you plan on having a bunch of casters standing around to babysit you the entire time you're logged in with resists like that. The only time I ever saw you in game, you were zerg rushing with like 6 other people and attacking solo nakeds in town then got banned. You were a horrible player on TZVZ and on SZ. Why would anyone listen to someone who's idea of PvP is 7 fully geared people attacking nakeds in town. I played every single day and that's the ONLY time I saw you in game lol. God this is pitiful.

[Bombfist]

This is so stupid it hurts. Repeat after me, TZVZ was the place i continually got stomped and now choose to whine about it. It's population was like 50-100, it only hit 300 after Salty mass zerg recruited by sending out electronic robo calls, we zerged it pretty hard, the guild i was in, <fish bait> would have succeeded if i didn't constantly get rooted. If EQ classic PvP was done normally with small adjustments here and there, you could easily have 500-1000 people but not with TZVZ rules and resists.

You keep posting numbers that you've tested on a server that should be used as a comparison to find the right resist checks, and you mention code from vz/tz 2.0 that i cross referenced like a retard and called it the same thing to raise a poll about. 10 out of 14 classes get them. All 3 hybrids that get them are already overpowered for PvP on EQ live. Necros and wizards kill people easily as well. Shaman casts -45 resist malo and 2k+ poison dot, that doesn't look underpowered to me.

I really hate getting rooted, I'm going to fight to the ends of norrath to stop getting rooted. STOP ROOTING ME.

Fixed*

[Aerist]

This is so stupid it hurts. Repeat after me, TZVZ was a failed server. It's population was like 50-100, it only hit 300 after Salty mass zerg recruited by sending out electronic robo calls. If EQ classic PvP was done normally with small adjustments here and there, you could easily have 500-1000 people but not with TZVZ rules and resists.

You can give 0 explanation whatsoever for why you think crowd control spells should land. 10 out of 14 classes get them. All 3 hybrids that get them are already overpowered for PvP on EQ live. Necros and wizards kill people easily as well. Shaman casts -45 resist malo and 2k+ poison dot, that doesn't look underpowered to me.

What game mechanic needs to be changed that is solved by having 10 classes casting crowd control spells? You can't even name what the hell it is.

Seriously Wehrmact, while I totally get where you are coming from with the wanting it to be more like live, the fact that you just randomly spill out things that have no relevance does us no good for this new server. You didn't even play when Null coding the box, so you don't know that it actually was CLOSER to what you want than what Voidd did.

I DO agree that snare/stun/root's should be hard to land, but they SHOULD have a chance, after debuff classes do their job, IE Tash and Malo.

Your brief few months playing with Fish Bait V Heresy doesn't quite make you an expert on the vz/tz box. Yeah it didn't have a lot of players, so lets focus on getting it right instead of just saying "BLAME HERESY VZTZ WAS BAD MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY"....btw hi mippo

[wehrmacht]

BAD MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY

I think you got it backwards pal. I said 5 billion times, everything should be like normal EQ live unless you can actually give a legitimate reason for why something should be changed and bombfist has not done so.

When you say something should be changed but give no reason why, it's the equivalent of saying: "It would be pretty cool if all the characters were walking around naked with 4 penises, we can get null to code it"

[Aerist]

I understand what you're saying, but you're doing the same thing he is doing. Pointing out that if it was close to live we'd have a higher population with no proof at all. You can't use anything as a real reference considering there is no other emu pvp server around.

We're just trying to work SOMETHING out, everything is up for debate, but just constantly trashing the VZTZ community won't get us anywhere. There are things we def need to fix, and its gonna require BETA testing mainly.

WTB Rogean

[Bombfist]

The 2.0 code had much higher root resist rate aerist, but wehrmact seems to have some sort of reading comprehension failure.

I play a melee, all the tests i've done etc were up for discussion by people of sound mind, constantly ranting about wanting root to have 100% resist with 125MR is pretty useless, wehrmact seems to think he is the voice for the entire community yet i sit in aim talking to 20-30 of the people who want this server to happen discussing these things, testing these things and try to find a point of discussion, it's pretty difficult to discuss anything with somebody who underlines in every single post that he wants root to resist 100% or the server is bad...

As i've posted many times, but again wehrmact ignores most of the post if i don't reply with "Good idea, 100% resist to root" this is a test thread, about discussing and changing the resist code so it isn't the same as vz/tz right now.

The current vz/tz resist code seems to point most resists at the exact same file, the same resist for an MR nuke is the same for a snare / root. As per 2.0, null had things working pretty nicely, and already 4 people? posted about the changes null making being good ones, but in comes white knight wehrmact,

"DID NULL HAVE 100% RESIST TO ROOT? NO? SCUMBAG"

The fact is, root should have a chance to hit, on a personal level, in my opinion, not wehrmacts i think that people should eat a root 20% of the time with 125MR, the number is incredibly easy to reach in classic, and unless you want each spell recoding through each expansion then it starts to get retarded.

Again, Wehrmact, this isn't even under our control, we don't know the actual plans of what the team here are planning even if they are planning an EQ pvp server, if they want it live like, then indeed root will resist to your specifications, the fact is i believe (this was polled) that people want a classic server, that is as balanced as possible.

I don't want this server like the recent vz/tz, it was terrible, that's why i'm putting in effort to show how the resists were there and get the communitys opinion on how it should actually be, all you're doing is posting your sole opinion on what you want.

The coding for a proposed new server might include a merger of some of the old VZ/TZ resist code from 2.0, which we must assume wehrmact is again an expert on, Null is ready to work on the resists and AC etc but again we still don't know what's happening.

think you got it backwards pal. I said 5 billion times, everything should be like normal EQ live unless you can actually give a legitimate reason for why something should be changed and bombfist has not done so.

When you say something should be changed but give no reason why, it's the equivalent of saying: "It would be pretty cool if all the characters were walking around naked with 4 penises, we can get null to code it"

You actually need reasons why some of the retarded terribad things that happened on live need changing, you're a moron, they were changed ON LIVE, because they were STUPID. I'm not going to go through every single change with you and why they were changed, because if you're too dumb to wonder why bards and enchanters couldn't make pets poof any more then there is 0 hope.

Again, to enter some thick skulls if it's atall possible;

ALL OF MY DATA IS FOR CROSS REFERENCE, AND INFORMATION ON THE LAST EMU PVP SERVER.

we do not know what the devs are going to do with this server, all information gathered is, get this, for informational purposes, posted here with backing of the opinion of others, if there are people in the community who feel like they need an explanation for me not agreeing with root landing 100% of the time with 4 items from classic, or level 4 enchanters being able to make pets poof, please feel free to PM me and i'll feel free to not care.

Slam dunk, i'm afk until i wait to speak to a dev in irc, I'm currently speaking with null and waiting for some direction on any possible server, my interest is in a balanced server, not a brain dead classic EQ pvp server, ignoring all changes actually made in future live eq patches because everything was broken, seems counter productive to me, just as actually replying to wehrmact is.

[wehrmacht]

it's pretty difficult to discuss anything with somebody who underlines in every single post that he wants root to resist 100% or the server is bad


Once again. It's an EQ Emulator server. It emulates Everquest.

No disrespect to Null or any of the people that worked on it but TZVZ doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned.

If you want crowd control spells to function different from EQ live Kunark/Velious era, post a valid reason why or I can just keep making you look stupid and incompetent over and over in every post since you're unable to list any reason why that game mechanic should be changed for 10 out of 14 classes.

I repeat, nobody gives a flying fuck about TZVZ. Pretend it doesn't exist when you talk to me concerning Everquest balance.

[Bombfist]

http://fooplot.com/index.php?&type0=0&type1=0&type2=0&type3=0&type4=0&y0=%28190%20*%20x%20/%20%28x%20%2B%20270%29%29-15&y1=%28-1*atan%28x/50%29*430/3.1415%2B208%29&y2=%28-1*atan%28x/50%29*430/3.1415%2B267%29&y3=&y4=&r0=&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=&px0=&px1=&px2=&px3=&px4=&py0=&py1=&py2=&py3=&py4=&smin0=0&smin1=0&smin2=0&smin3=0&smin4=0&smax0=2pi&smax1=2pi&smax2=2pi&smax3=2pi&smax4=2pi&thetamin0=0&thetamin1=0&thetamin2=0&thetamin3=0&thetamin4=0&thetamax0=2pi&thetamax1=2pi&thetamax2=2pi&thetamax3=2pi&thetamax4=2pi&ipw=1&ixmin=0&ixmax=350&iymin=0&iymax=100&igx=100&igy=10&igl=1&igs=0&iax=1&ila=1&xmin=0&xmax=350&ymin=0&ymax=100

The above URL is a link to the graph plot, if you want to mess with it yourself.

http://www.vexthal.com/resists.jpg

For those too lazy to click.

These are the resists from Vz/Tz 2.0 that null kindly sent me.

The black line is your resist %, 100MR gives you -35% chance to resist
135MR about 50%

The blue and red lines are a random value, regarding damage OR ticks / time.

The red line is the lowest possible partial you can hit for, the blue line the highest, these modifier can be changed for each spell seperately.

These % represent your EFFECTIVE resists, not what is showed on your tool tip, each spell had a modifier.

roots get +15 resist and a 45% partial reduction
stun gets a +25
snare gets +35 and 35% partial
blind gets +75
slow gets -10
malo gets -10
whirl gets +100

So, if we take snare as an example, it's at about 55% chance to resist at 100MR and it will last 45-85% of the duration.

Wehrmact, your views are completely valid if you want to emulate live to your memory, that's not what i want to do, I'm pretty sure you're the only one who wants to do that. This isn't the thread for you buddy, you're trying to tell me and everybody else here how everything should be, but you know 0 about anybodys intentions but your own. I have 0 intention of emulating live everquest pvp, it's terrible, everybody knows that but you seem to want to, that's fine friend.

I'll quote null, and remind you that everyone bitched on live about things being unbalanced.

Box 1.0 everyone bitched, box 2.0 everyone bitched, box 3.0 made standing in the yard with a tree trunk pretending it was a ton po doing flying kicks seem like the promised land on everquest pvp.

This thread is for finding a balance, i don't want to emulate live, vacate my thread.

For those that want to discuss the graph feel free, the modifiers are whats up for discussion basically,

roots get +15 resist and a 45% partial reduction
stun gets a +25
snare gets +35 and 35% partial
blind gets +75
slow gets -10
malo gets -10
whirl gets +100

The partial resists are editable for each nuke and every spell in game, the discussion points are the ones above really, you'll see whirl with a 100 modifier, meaning it's going to get resisted 80% of the time with about 150MR and has an RNG partial timer anywhere between the red and blue lines for your effective resists.

[Walk]

isnt egg shaped pumice from pvp merchants aquired through pvp points? correct me if im wrong

[wehrmacht]

So, if we take snare as an example, it's at about 55% chance to resist at 100MR and it will last 45-85% of the duration.

So yea, automatic free kill anytime a couple skill-less noobs wander onto your screen and start spamming ensnare. Way to create a server for people with no talent and completely remove soloing from the game unless you play a caster that can just gate away and escape death every time.

What was your reason for why soloing should be completely removed from EQ PvP again or why any of these stupid crowd control spells should land?

You plan to zerg so you don't care about how anything turns out that doesn't affect you.


Wehrmact, your views are completely valid if you want to emulate live to your memory, that's not what i want to do

Then go make some kind of new video game instead of trying to destroy this one.


I have 0 intention of emulating live everquest pvp


So this is your server now? Can you stop talking like an idiot dude seriously. I hope the devs have enough sense to not listen to the people that want to recreate the failed TZVZ server.

[Null]

It depends on what you are trying to do though. If your goal is nostalgia then sure, tune that thing exactly how EQ PVP was back then and enjoy.

But you are going to be hard pressed to convince (at least a good chunk of people) that EQ PVP was remotely close to balanced. It was an afterthought and largely ignored in patches for years at a time. It didn't need to be balanced to be fun, but think about what it could have been had they invested at least a little time into basic issues.

I don't know if any of you play fighting games, but Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo is considered one of the best competitive fighting games of all time. A few years ago they made Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix with a large amount of minor balance changes that overall made the game more competitive. They didn't go in and give new abilities and they didn't go adding new characters. What they did was took advantage of 15 years of experience on the game to improve it in the spirit of the original.

That is the advantage that we have here, knowledge and the tools to make it better. To me the biggest issue with classic pvp is resists, because I distinctly remember people pissed off (and for good reason) burning through a whole manabar into someone afk and being unable to land anything.

To me, using Identical gear levels, Player A should be able to kill an AFK Player B using melee (for melees) and spells (for casters) or a combination (for hybrids) in a reasonable amount of time or about 1 bar of mana maximum.

I think I sort of got off on a tangent there but yea, I think if the goal is to relive the classic pvp experience then try and recreate things exactly the way that they were. However if your goal is to create a balanced PVP environment then tweaking the resists in some way are all but required.

[Aerist]

So yea, automatic free kill anytime a couple skill-less noobs wander onto your screen and start spamming ensnare. Way to create a server for people with no talent and completely remove soloing from the game unless you play a caster that can just gate away and escape death every time.

What was your reason for why soloing should be completely removed from EQ PvP again or why any of these stupid crowd control spells should land?

You plan to zerg so you don't care about how anything turns out that doesn't affect you.


First off, will you just admit that you are completely upset about the fact that you probably got snared or rooted and a melee train raped you and made you feel inadequate as a player?

Secondly, funny story when one of us got snared or rooted in pvp on 2.0 do you know what we did? WE HEALED, because thats what teamwork was about. Getting rooted or snared doesn't mean death, I'd argue it takes MORE Skill to play with the chance of getting rooted or snared.

Thirdly, Mippo you were in the LARGEST guild on VZ/TZ, I remember easily 55 toons logged in at some point (I believe there is a screenshot). The problem is you played with people who DIDNT know how to pvp so noone actually assisted or healed.

In conclusion, the reason bombfist is saying we're not trying to make it like live is because live was NOT designed for balanced pvp, that is beyond evident if you go to the live website and read the billions of pvp posts.

When one of my guys got rooted or snared, this is what I heard in vent..Example : I'm Snared this is Bombfist, followed by, Heals inc to Bombfist.

Note I was never guilded with Bombfist, just an example

[Bombfist]

You plan to zerg so you don't care about how anything turns out that doesn't affect you.

http://www.vexthal.com/EQ000084.jpg

[Foxx]

lol shiva, mavtank, wermacht, hybrid.... thats some REAL talented players in that screen shot, lololol

[wehrmacht]

First off, will you just admit that you are completely upset about the fact that you probably got snared or rooted and a melee train raped you and made you feel inadequate as a player?

That has nothing to do with it. It's because it changes the entire game dynamic of Everquest PvP. In real EQ PvP, 1 person can kill an infinite number of terrible players. I do not want a communist system where all they have to do is show up with more people and they get an automatic free win due to crowd control spells.

You are destroying EQ PvP completely if you alter that game dynamic. EQ PvP did not reward zergers. All these bullshit suggestions I read on here do nothing but help zerging and lower skilled players. The minor "twitch gaming" skills element of jousting is also removed when all you're gonna be doing is attacking snared and rooted players. You just gut every little bit of skill required from the game.




To me the biggest issue with classic pvp is resists, because I distinctly remember people pissed off (and for good reason) burning through a whole manabar into someone afk and being unable to land anything.

I don't care how you alter damage spell resists in any way, all I care about is altering crowd control spell resists to be different from live because it changes how the game is played completely and makes soloing not even viable.


Thirdly, Mippo

I hope this a joke. There are a million people on this board that will tell you I'm not Mippo. Yes, mippo thought crowd control shouldn't work either. Some people like normal EQ and not TZVZ EQ. I also don't recognize your name.



because thats what teamwork was about.

Is this a bumpersticker quote? Seriously, what the fuck?

EQ live PvP was not a forced grouping server. There are plenty of games out there where you are forced to group to PvP and EQ live was not one of them. You are trying to force *your* play style upon other people with no consideration for anyone else. Grouping and soloing were both viable options in normal EQ rules so don't even try to turn that around on me.

[Aerist]

Looks like I'm gonna have to call out the detectives Werhmippo, Smedy/Cast WRU, need help

[Bombfist]

You are trying to force *your* play style upon other people with no consideration for anyone else.

Pot, kettle, black.

makes soloing not even viable.

I solo'd as a monk on vz/tz and smashed members of your guild 6 people at a time. Your rain man selective memory that can remember exact resist numbers from 10 years ago seems to fail alot.

If I drop a box of toothpicks on the floor do you think you'd be able to remember the countless times you got your shit pushed in and quit? Root was so overpowered on vz/tz, yet you played a class with root and did nothing, no big things, no basketball, just constant death.

I don't even think you're the real rain man bro.

There are a million people on this board

lololol

[wehrmacht]

I solo'd as a monk on vz/tz and smashed members of your guild 6 people at a time.


That's Salty's guild, I'm not taking any responsibility for Fish Bait. That's like trying to blame WW2 on Africa.

[Alawen Everywhere]

In this thread: a handful of guys from the failed VZTZ server try to shout down a guy who actually played on EQ live.

[Aerist]

In this thread: a handful of guys from the failed VZTZ server try to shout down a guy who actually played on EQ live.

I remember you spending hours camping dino spawn on VZTZ bro, glad to see you made it to a good home. I played on live pvp also, I just don't mention it every post, because live pvp was very imbalanced, I think we need a beta server up to get some testing done

[Alawen Everywhere]

I remember you spending hours camping dino spawn on VZTZ bro, glad to see you made it to a good home. I played on live pvp also, I just don't mention it every post, because live pvp was very imbalanced, I think we need a beta server up to get some testing done

You must mean those couple hours I was out there when Big Knuckle came out to teach me a lesson and instead found himself back at his bind point.

You're knocking me for trying to get resist gear? Really?

If you browsed this forum a little bit, you'd discover that I get along with basically no one. I refuse to participate in the god spawn camping and I can't wait for red99. I'd say consider yourself added to my kill list, but I pretty much want to kill anyone I can all the time already, so no change.

[Bombfist]

Man people on these boards are angry, i get a giggle and a small twitch in my nut sack every time wehrmacht posts, and i still feel a little bit of love when he gets trolled into secretly telling me how much he loves my company, but scanning over the other thread and seeing this ;

I seriously hope you are the victim of an act of random violence. Literally. You or your family, whatever monsters created you also deserve severe punishment.

I dunno, all seems a bit pointless.

Relax guys, it's just the internet.

[Foxx]

alawan, me and u get along gr8. we r def pals, cant wait for red box

[Alawen Everywhere]

alawan, me and u get along gr8. we r def pals, cant wait for red box

Cool. You and me against the world, then. Bard and wizard? Two necros? Necro and cleric?

[Foxx]

iono they both sound gr8 ! i like necro and wiz, thats alot of ganking ability rite there + ports. omg win, also druid/necro so good, i like sow its A+++

[AffEcT]

It brings me joy to see Null back on the court.
Yatta!

[Knuckle]

It depends on what you are trying to do though. If your goal is nostalgia then sure, tune that thing exactly how EQ PVP was back then and enjoy.

But you are going to be hard pressed to convince (at least a good chunk of people) that EQ PVP was remotely close to balanced. It was an afterthought and largely ignored in patches for years at a time. It didn't need to be balanced to be fun, but think about what it could have been had they invested at least a little time into basic issues.

I don't know if any of you play fighting games, but Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo is considered one of the best competitive fighting games of all time. A few years ago they made Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix with a large amount of minor balance changes that overall made the game more competitive. They didn't go in and give new abilities and they didn't go adding new characters. What they did was took advantage of 15 years of experience on the game to improve it in the spirit of the original.

That is the advantage that we have here, knowledge and the tools to make it better. To me the biggest issue with classic pvp is resists, because I distinctly remember people pissed off (and for good reason) burning through a whole manabar into someone afk and being unable to land anything.

To me, using Identical gear levels, Player A should be able to kill an AFK Player B using melee (for melees) and spells (for casters) or a combination (for hybrids) in a reasonable amount of time or about 1 bar of mana maximum.

I think I sort of got off on a tangent there but yea, I think if the goal is to relive the classic pvp experience then try and recreate things exactly the way that they were. However if your goal is to create a balanced PVP environment then tweaking the resists in some way are all but required.


How odd, we've been having a throwback month and there has been a large amount of Street Fighter 2 Turbo in the evening on the Sega Genesis. Null, welcome to hell 2.0 buddy!

[Walk It Out]

In this thread: a handful of guys from the failed VZTZ server try to shout down a guy who actually played on EQ live.

my red brothers never judged me, i played on zek up until HoT expansion

[Salty]

http://www.vexthal.com/EQ000084.jpg

that was harsh big Bombfist, lol

[Lazortag]

Back to the original topic: one thing that absolutely must be changed for pvp is changing the level caps for Bard mezzes. I'm fine with keeping them for PvE since the level caps very closely approximate how it actually worked (where certain mobs, usually very high leveled, were just immune to resistable mezzes). But in pvp it's complete horseshit that at level 50 my Bard wasn't able to mez another player the same level as me.

[nalkin]

Back to the original topic: one thing that absolutely must be changed for pvp is changing the level caps for Bard mezzes. I'm fine with keeping them for PvE since the level caps very closely approximate how it actually worked (where certain mobs, usually very high leveled, were just immune to resistable mezzes). But in pvp it's complete horseshit that at level 50 my Bard wasn't able to mez another player the same level as me.

That why you ran from me nub?

[Kimmie]

That why you ran from me nub?

http://i56.tinypic.com/350v3go.png

b, what'd we say about tellin lies?

[naez]

kimmie posting itt

[Alawen Everywhere]

Back to the original topic: one thing that absolutely must be changed for pvp is changing the level caps for Bard mezzes. I'm fine with keeping them for PvE since the level caps very closely approximate how it actually worked (where certain mobs, usually very high leveled, were just immune to resistable mezzes). But in pvp it's complete horseshit that at level 50 my Bard wasn't able to mez another player the same level as me.

ITT: A bard who thinks mez is one of his big PVP weapons.

[naez]

you might as well make fun of a warrior for tanking


like 2 days after my bard finally got ancient mez on live they ninja nerfed the level ranges on mezzes to work in pvp oman I was raged you know how many VT bosses I fukn killed

[Alawen Everywhere]

you might as well make fun of a warrior for tanking


like 2 days after my bard finally got ancient mez on live they ninja nerfed the level ranges on mezzes to work in pvp oman I was raged you know how many VT bosses I fukn killed

I agree. Tanking is similarly relevant to PVP.

[naez]

Bard mez is one of their biggest pvp weapons.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Bard mez is one of their biggest pvp weapons.

Uh, yeah. They just fire up that giant bard nuke and remez, right? It's not like there's a cheap vendor item that nullifies mez or anything.

[naez]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1138

[Alawen Everywhere]

That's an Innoruuk drop, one of eighteen, once a week. Welcome to a real database. Everything you think you know about EQ PVP from playing bad code with bad data and 19 other players is wrong.

[wehrmacht]

I added another possible choice for teams (if the server goes teams) on the long ass page I did at:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31288

Race War using race as selection variable: Probably the best choice since each team gets every class. Some people will whine because one team has troll and ogre tanks. Trolls aren't even good on a PvP server because they have 5 fire resist. Barbs are just as good if not better due to practically the same stats and no gimped fire resist.

Dark Elf Alliance (evil)

Dark Elf
Troll
Iksar
Ogre
Half Elf
Erudite


Human Alliance (good)

Human
Dwarf
Gnome
Halfling
High Elf
Barbarian
Wood Elf

[minakto]

English is poor

Why keep posting identical post in different posts. Appearing overwhelmed and nervous makes you look fool

[Smedy]

I'm strongly against 2 hardcoded teams, it won't work in eq. Also everyone will xteam anyway so the whole point will be screwed up pretty quick.

Also why make everquest like all the failed mmorpg pvp games out there today? Every single shitty "mmorpg pvp" game out there right now is 2 team hardcoded bullshit, and it never works. There's a reason why we stick around to play EQ pvp! Sandbox style is the way to go, let the players make their friends, let the players make their enemies, and let the strongest win. Competitive at the highest level.

[Gongshow]

Wehrmacht, I was just wondering where I could pick up a copy of your ridiculously long and stupid posts in hardback form, so that I can enjoy them when I am not at my computer.

Two years later and you are still whining like a champ, and the server isn't even out yet.

Signed,

Gongshow the Great

PS. FFA

[Lazortag]

Bard mez is one of their biggest pvp weapons.

This is absolutely correct. Alawen is wrong as usual. Even though there are items that easily nullify mez, it's still useful for interrupting spells, so what Alawen is saying is just nonsense. Moreover, just because there's a counter to a good spell doesn't mean that the spell is no longer good. There are still people who forget to dot themselves or don't even know about the item in question. Additionally it's great against people on corpse runs (this isn't a huge point, but I'd still like to be able to prevent someone from gating away if I happen to engage them on their way to their corpse. Is this douchey? Probably. But it's good to still have the option).

Also Alawen, even if you were right, it still wouldn't be a reason to un-classically keep the level cap in for Bard mez in pvp. Keep the cap in for pve all you want, but you can't tell me there's any reason for it to stay in pvp, especially if it's as useless as you claim!

[naez]

That's an Innoruuk drop, one of eighteen, once a week. Welcome to a real database. Everything you think you know about EQ PVP from playing a half dozen or more servers including 2 live ones through many eras over the span of nearly a decade where every bard until the cure aria LoY song and enchanter worth a shit in pvp had that shield until /blockbuff is right.

[Bombfist]

http://www.vexthal.com/ooops.jpg

[Xantille]

bumping this thread for great justice

[naez]

eta :confused:

[Massive Marc]

EDIT: dumb ass.

[Massive Marc]

Edit: apparently I'm lost. send me back to R&F ....

[wehrmacht]

Wehrmacht, I was just wondering where I could pick up a copy of your ridiculously long and stupid posts in hardback form, so that I can enjoy them when I am not at my computer.

Two years later and you are still whining like a champ, and the server isn't even out yet.

Signed,

Gongshow the Great

It's funny how 90% of the raging mad people whining at my posts are all Heresy members. They sit here pretending to be some kind of majority voice for the server when it's just one guild whining to try and receive every variable possible changed to give them the most advantage they can get.

This is exactly why TZVZ was a failure, the GM's listened to them when they zerged the message boards.

[Jigga]

Only person zerging the boards has been you. No one is really even talking about server but every post you feel obligated to bring up Heresy and how they are trying so hard to make the GMs do what they want when really you are the one frantically trying to get the GMs to do what you want
Also i think i have seen 4 or 5 heresy post. Lasher,xant,knuckle,rexx and gongshow.

Xant made two posts about how troll suck in pvp and something about you editing a rage post about bombfist

Gongshow bascially asked why are you still butthurt

Lasher made a few posts about FFA but nothing where hes trying frantically to get gms to do what he wants

Knuckle and rexx are just trolling

So where is this zerg of heresy?

[wehrmacht]

We're trying to make the serer exactly like TZVZ even though through through measure of population, it's been proven that nobody wants to play with that rule set, resists, and other characteristics of that server

Fixed your quote.

[Bombfist]

Originally Posted by Jigga
We're trying to make the serer exactly like TZVZ even though through through measure of population, it's been proven that nobody wants to play with that rule set, resists, and other characteristics of that server
Fixed your quote.

Fixing quotes while angry, priceless.

Edit : I'm not sure where this serer is going, though through through recent studies;

http://www.vexthal.com/wehrmachtlol.gif