SK epic vs other weapons, worth?

[drakkan]

So I recently have been itching to work on my SK's epic...fashion quest is definitely enticing but from a realistic standpoint of the work involved for how often it's wielded, is it worth it? The stats a pretty nice but output wise Narandi's lance is a better ratio and only 20k.

Now obviously sk's in a non raiding scene might benefit from the hp/resists/life tap but how often are high end raid SK's wielding their epics?

Interested in hearing what I might be overlooking, thanks everyone in advance.

[Sonderbeast]

SK's would use it if they ever tanked endgame content.

SK's don't do damage so it doesn't matter what their ratio is.

SK's are more useful as pullers in the end game. You want resists and HP and the epic has those, very worth if you want to be an endgame SK.

[Danth]

SK's don't do damage so it doesn't matter what their ratio is.

MMO-gamer-thinking detected...."If a character isn't the best at something, he can't do it at all." Silly, of course.

...However, that's the mindset you have to be prepared to deal with if you want to do high-end content on P1999 as a hybrid tank. Half the bigger guilds regard you as fluff and won't care what you do, and the other half will passively-aggressively whine at you to play something they like better. Go into it with a thick skin, or pick something else.

Note that Narandi's Lance, like all piercers, performs slightly worse than its ratio would suggest because piercing has a lower skillcap than blunt or slashing. The epic performs somewhat poorly on select raid bosses because P1999 has a non-classic feature where certain raid bosses are flagged as lifetap immune, blocking the proc. High-end, high AC bosses also favor fast weapons since a lot of hits skew towards the lower end of the spectrum...hence you see most high-end knights using 1H weapons most of the time. As a Shadow Knight who primarily solo's or duo's, the epic is extremely effective for me....if I wanted to do high-end raids regularly I'd regard it simply as another weapon or a situational tool. With the relative scarcity of hybrids at the high-end, Pal/SKweapons, at least the 2H examples, from temple veeshan must be able to be acquired cheaply by folks in the guilds that do such content.

Danth

[Snaggles]

I had one back on live with a Lance of Thunder and would often use it on raids just to help with supplemental damage. Yea less overall DPS but survival and tricks are the hybrid's strong area.

The Narandi is great in that you can just buy it and eventually it will be upgraded from 38/45. Hopefully sometime in the next decade :). With the SK epic being very difficult and the lance being the opposite I guess it depends how concerned you are with the bottlenecks.

[Sonderbeast]

SK dps is half that of a warrior

don't worry about it

[elwing]

Getting high dps should always be a target but since your dps will stay low no matter what, losing some dps in favor of a proc that improve your overall survivability is a decent trade... It depend on the proc and the loss of dps, obviously... Also as other stated piercing caps much lower, this has a clear impact on the damage output, making piercing weapon less good than they seems, even when narandi's will be boosted it will probably still have a worst effective dps than your epic...

[Doctor Jeff]

ITT: "hurrrdurrr sks cant do dps you shouldnt even use a weaponnnn"

[Troxx]

I parse most groups I’m in and have for a long time now. At the higher end of content, ranging from 57-60 and including very nice samplings across the board (high end tradables, epics, low raid and NToV/BiS ... I can say one thing:

Many high end players playing high dps classes overrate their own damage output. Average high end rogues may burst or disc/luck out some insane numbers but in general I expect a ballpark of 80-120 dps sustained depending on gear with standard group buffs. Monks? 70-90? Rangers? Less. Warriors? Not that far behind. People with raid BiS or lazy and crappliy geared blokes can always break this molds but it’s what I’ve come to expect.

Where I’m going with is I’ve also parsed well geared SKs and Pals and they, though measurably lower, aren’t as god awful as people think they are. A paladin with the 27/29 hate 1hs can put out a consistent 50-60dps. It’s less than warriors but not by as much as you might think under realistic fighting conditions. NToV weapons yield better results.

People like to strut raid burn parses fully buffed to the gills and burning discs, but 99% of new play doesn’t have avatar, CotP, trueshot, precision, etc_and_so_on in the equation.

Knight dps is anything but non-contributory unless your gear, buffs and weapons suck. Ratio does matter and dps is dps. Well geared knights can put out respectable numbers for an archetype that is expected to suck.

[Octopath]

I parse most groups I’m in and have for a long time now. At the higher end of content, ranging from 57-60 and including very nice samplings across the board (high end tradables, epics, low raid and NToV/BiS ... I can say one thing:

Many high end players playing high dps classes overrate their own damage output. Average high end rogues may burst or disc/luck out some insane numbers but in general I expect a ballpark of 80-120 dps sustained depending on gear with standard group buffs. Monks? 70-90? Rangers? Less. Warriors? Not that far behind. People with raid BiS or lazy and crappliy geared blokes can always break this molds but it’s what I’ve come to expect.

Where I’m going with is I’ve also parsed well geared SKs and Pals and they, though measurably lower, aren’t as god awful as people think they are. A paladin with the 27/29 hate 1hs can put out a consistent 50-60dps. It’s less than warriors but not by as much as you might think under realistic fighting conditions. NToV weapons yield better results.

People like to strut raid burn parses fully buffed to the gills and burning discs, but 99% of new play doesn’t have avatar, CotP, trueshot, precision, etc_and_so_on in the equation.

Knight dps is anything but non-contributory unless your gear, buffs and weapons suck. Ratio does matter and dps is dps. Well geared knights can put out respectable numbers for an archetype that is expected to suck.

Great post. Thanks

[Quizlop]

ITT: "hurrrdurrr sks cant do dps you shouldnt even use a weaponnnn"

Pretty much. Use a Z-Heart in your MH if you think DPS doesn't matter.

[Octopath]

I was curious, how is sk epic vs greenmist?

[24kanthony]

If I'm not using my eipc, it's the nev claw and SoM or the great spear of dawn when the spell Haste and buffs are there. Otherwise, it's pretty much always the epic.

[evilkorn]

It depends on what you want to do. Want to run through the quest for fun/lore/travel fine go for it. If you are going to duo or solo, you still want to have better dps which you said there are better ratio 2 handers and while the proc is neat it probably wont make up for the worse ratio and a fungi is a more consistent heal. I don't use my SK that often but content with Lance and eye/sev shield when I do use him. He's iksar so i'll probably get the greenmist just because even though it's worse than the 25/25 tov 1hander.

[Sonderbeast]

You guys are really trying to defend SK dps? Lol


Next we'll be seeing wizards with Willsappers tanking Vindi.

Back to reality here - like I was saying don't worry about your dps because it's not important to your class. Sk epic is good for everything you need to do including hur durr dps.

[24kanthony]

Well, with my claw I'm doing about 45dps, with epic its 60 to 80 dps, and with the spear it can parse anywhere from 65 to 120 dps so it's worth paying some attention to.

[Sonderbeast]

I was curious, how is sk epic vs greenmist?

Gonna be awesome for Iksar SK's.

When you compare it to Innoruuks curse you can't just look at them side by side. You have to realize you're gonna have a big ass plank in your secondary giving great stats and resists.

Turns out with Atramentous shield it will be basically the same as epic except have better snap aggro and better MR while still giving a good siphon effect. The extra 35 mr from that combo is great for resisting dragon AE while tanking and various magic based robots while pulling.

And good dps 😋

[Sonderbeast]

Well, with my claw I'm doing about 45dps, with epic its 60 to 80 dps, and with the spear it can parse anywhere from 65 to 120 dps so it's worth paying some attention to.

Put up or shut up. You're not doing 120 dps with that spear.

[24kanthony]

Put up or shut up. You're not doing 120 dps with that spear.

Up to that much, that's if rngesus happens to love me while I'm fully buffed and hasted. If I have unlucky rounds with lots of missing, the numbers can drop off fast with the high delay. That's why the dps range is so wide when it's parsed.

[Sonderbeast]

Are you parsing at orc 1?

Doesn't count

[Octopath]

Gonna be awesome for Iksar SK's.

When you compare it to Innoruuks curse you can't just look at them side by side. You have to realize you're gonna have a big ass plank in your secondary giving great stats and resists.

Turns out with Atramentous shield it will be basically the same as epic except have better snap aggro and better MR while still giving a good siphon effect. The extra 35 mr from that combo is great for resisting dragon AE while tanking and various magic based robots while pulling.

And good dps 😋

So is it worth it to make a iksar sk only because of greenmist? I really have no desire to make a iksar besides that (regent is bonus points)

[Sonderbeast]

It's a good weapon but I wouldn't tell you to pick iksar just for that reason. Blood ember greaves and other pieces are still a pretty big deal to help save mana (and 3x fd's) I'd reroll my iksar so if just for those pants.

[24kanthony]

Are you parsing at orc 1?

Doesn't count

Sorry your SK isn't as good as mine.

[Sonderbeast]

Sorry your SK isn't as good as mine.

I can tell you're lying about your parsing so you can cut the crap.

[Octopath]

It's a good weapon but I wouldn't tell you to pick iksar just for that reason. Blood ember greaves and other pieces are still a pretty big deal to help save mana (and 3x fd's) I'd reroll my iksar so if just for those pants.

What do you mean by 3x fd's?

[24kanthony]

It's a 53dmg weapon and let's me land single swings for 296, giving the possibility of landing a double attack and doing almost 600dmg in a round or missing and doing nothing. It's not often that rng is that nice to me but with 41% worn haste, vog, sham buffs, it can and has happened. Sorry you can't accept that.

[Sonderbeast]

at 60 you have your Feign Death spell, Death Peace, and your BE greaves click.

[Octopath]

at 60 you have your Feign Death spell, Death Peace, and your BE greaves click.

Sorry I'm noob to sk, how does that benefit the sk? More chances to cast if one is interrupted?

[Sonderbeast]

It's a 53dmg weapon and let's me land single swings for 296, giving the possibility of landing a double attack and doing almost 600dmg in a round or missing and doing nothing. It's not often that rng is that nice to me but with 41% worn haste, vog, sham buffs, it can and has happened. Sorry you can't accept that.

I have a 53 damage weapon with a better ratio, a better skill cap, 41% worn haste, vog sham buffs and a sexy tail and don't ever hit those numbers unless I'm discing (which you dont have). Sorry I caught you lying lol. Next time you wanna whip your dick out you better have your story straight.

CONCEDE

[Sonderbeast]

Sorry I'm noob to sk, how does that benefit the sk? More chances to cast if one is interrupted?

The casted spells have a long cooldown so having the legs to click instead or in addition really helps with pulling.

[24kanthony]

All I'm hearing is that you aren't able to do what I have and you're upset about it.

[Sonderbeast]

Put up or shut up liar

[Danth]

I knew a player who made an Iksar SK specifically for Greenmist. That was in 2013. Make a character with future content in mind is something you do at your own risk.


Usually when people talk about DPS, they're talking about sustainable DPS over a fairly long period, not bursts over a relative handful of seconds when the RNG happens to grant you numerous high hits in a row.


Danth

[24kanthony]

I
Usually when people talk about DPS, they're talking about sustainable DPS over a fairly long period, not bursts over a relative handful of seconds when the RNG happens to grant you numerous high hits in a row.


For sure. I'd say that on most fights the dps of the spear is around 80. I do get the rare rng blessings that put me over 100 though, no matter how sad that might make Draconite.
I don't think it takes much math to determine that it's well within the range of rng possibility.

[Danth]

Sounds about right to me, using 2H in general tends to be streak-prone. Even duo in western wastes, kill rate (paired with the wife's shaman) can vary by a couple minutes simply due to the whims of the RNG.

Are you using that lance out of preference, or because Lady M refuses to drop Frostwrath more than once in a blue moon? I'd expect more consistent performance with the 1H, albeit with a lower potential maximum.

Danth

[24kanthony]

I have found 3 situations where the spear can be a big help; that's camps like sebilis crypt/emp, duels when the person has ring ds on, and laid back raids like HoT when there's plenty of monks to do the pulling and no green drake around. If we are doing one of those AE wurms, I can stay in the whole fight without any outside heals by blasting lifetaps and letting that spear off between casts. It's a fun toy but its delay and skill cap will really set me back if I'm using it in the wrong situation. I always hope that there is enough for me to do that I should not have it out.

[elwing]

So is it worth it to make a iksar sk only because of greenmist? I really have no desire to make a iksar besides that (regent is bonus points)

Human sk there, selling a full lord of pain MQ for 50k...just saying, lol

[Sonderbeast]

For sure. I'd say that on most fights the dps of the spear is around 80. I do get the rare rng blessings that put me over 100 though, no matter how sad that might make Draconite.
I don't think it takes much math to determine that it's well within the range of rng possibility.

Glad you backed down on your 120 boast. You probably barely get 80, and epic is probably more like 55 on average.

The nerd that sits down at his computer and says 'I'm going to get a bunch of DPS stuff for my SK because that's cool and useful' is deluded. Getting Sevelak spear is fine and cool, but a Nev claw? Seriously?

My original point before you started boasting about your spear and we got on this tangent is that SK dps isn't an important part of the class, so just don't worry about it. Focus on important things for SHADOWKNIGHTS like HP, Mana, resists, good proc's or clickies. So, OP the epic is great, it exceeds everything out there for your class (exept dps :rolleyes:)

[Xaeophi]

I parse most groups I’m in and have for a long time now. At the higher end of content, ranging from 57-60 and including very nice samplings across the board (high end tradables, epics, low raid and NToV/BiS ... I can say one thing:

Many high end players playing high dps classes overrate their own damage output. Average high end rogues may burst or disc/luck out some insane numbers but in general I expect a ballpark of 80-120 dps sustained depending on gear with standard group buffs. Monks? 70-90? Rangers? Less. Warriors? Not that far behind. People with raid BiS or lazy and crappliy geared blokes can always break this molds but it’s what I’ve come to expect.

Where I’m going with is I’ve also parsed well geared SKs and Pals and they, though measurably lower, aren’t as god awful as people think they are. A paladin with the 27/29 hate 1hs can put out a consistent 50-60dps. It’s less than warriors but not by as much as you might think under realistic fighting conditions. NToV weapons yield better results.

People like to strut raid burn parses fully buffed to the gills and burning discs, but 99% of new play doesn’t have avatar, CotP, trueshot, precision, etc_and_so_on in the equation.

Knight dps is anything but non-contributory unless your gear, buffs and weapons suck. Ratio does matter and dps is dps. Well geared knights can put out respectable numbers for an archetype that is expected to suck.

Very few monks can out dps my ranger actually.. Cute assumption though :)

[Troxx]

Very few monks can out dps my ranger actually.. Cute assumption though :)

Very few comparably geared rangers will beat comparably geared monks (BFG trueshot raid burns notwithstanding).

Sorry if I sprained your e-peen. Injuries of the gentleman’s sausage are super cereal and not a joking matter. My humblest of apologies.

Sincerely,

Troxx Tomte, Esquire
Chief Ninja
Lord and Master of the Universe

[aaezil]

Wow some sensitive sks in here seriously inflating their dps peens

[aaezil]

Unless you are 60 sk with ntov weps you do 30 dps... 4 of you equals 1 good rogue.

[elwing]

Doing around 30dps raid buffed with 34%haste at 56 with sky sword... I don't doubt that the 120dps mentioned is completely false but 50-60 dps with lvl60 and post epic weapons seems credible depending on the mob...

[Troxx]

Uhhh ... my level 40 paladin does more than 30 dps on dark blue mobs with 34% haste belt and 30% haste buff quickness and a cheap 30/35 velious claidhmore. Buffless (126 base str) it’s still a consistent 18-25.

We’ll see how he does in his 50s but I’m expecting it to be around 50 sustained in the high 50s with a proper 50-60+ % haste buff, higher skill caps and upward-scaling dmg bonus. Don’t get me wrong ... 50dps is not stellar but as I’ve already said it is far from non-contributory for a class that’s designed to get beat on.

For knights this is all highly content specific. DPS potential on xp group trash is not the same as dps potential on high ac and or high level raid mobs. With lower skill caps knights in particular are going to suffer disproportionately more than other melee.

[elwing]

On raid bosses...

[Troxx]

On raid bosses...

A situation that is only relevant for the upper 1% of Everquest content. Super relevant for the p99 neckbeard for sure though. It’s not content where you would expect a knight to shine.

If p99 actually raided content as it was designed, including the crawl and trash clears, Knight dps contribution would be a bit more relevant. As we all know, however, p99 raid guilds are allergic to trash mobs and are addicted to single pulling raid mobs to the zone line.

OP asked is the SK epic is worth it - not this tangent argument. The stats are excellent and the proc is nice. If I were capable of getting a proper velious raid weapon I’d personally skip it. If not and you can manage it, the epic is very nice. This side bar discussion of “you’ll never be a real dps so disregard ratio” is simply absurd. Dps is dps. Knights are capable of more dps than they are given credit for. Dps classes are frequently given more credit than their performance deserves - especially at the group level.

[Chardy]

I have a 53 damage weapon with a better ratio, a better skill cap, 41% worn haste, vog sham buffs and a sexy tail and don't ever hit those numbers unless I'm discing (which you dont have). Sorry I caught you lying lol. Next time you wanna whip your dick out you better have your story straight.

CONCEDE

Draco, my 56 ogre war consistently hits 317 with the twisted steel while soloing.

My 51 Ogre SK hits upper 280s with spear of dawn. When I'm fighting undead, the 125 per tick DoT makes my dmg output stupid. Swap to my vyemm sledge and it's consistent 130s, with the 218 proc going off 4-5 times per mob. I will say it feels like I miss waaay more on the SK, but that's probably due to a 130 or so difference in dex?

SK isn't a "DPS class" but that doesn't mean you gotta lie down. Dots, procs and stupid ratio weaps make it passable.

just my 2cents

[Sonderbeast]

Draco, my 56 ogre war consistently hits 317 with the twisted steel while soloing.

My 51 Ogre SK hits upper 280s with spear of dawn. When I'm fighting undead, the 125 per tick DoT makes my dmg output stupid. Swap to my vyemm sledge and it's consistent 130s, with the 218 proc going off 4-5 times per mob. I will say it feels like I miss waaay more on the SK, but that's probably due to a 130 or so difference in dex?

SK isn't a "DPS class" but that doesn't mean you gotta lie down. Dots, procs and stupid ratio weaps make it passable.

just my 2cents

You miss more because your offense and weapon skillcaps are lower by level and by class, and you are comparing a piercing weapon to a 2hs. You are going to have more minimum hits and more misses due to those two hardwired aspects.

Idk what your point is about your big hits, thats irrelevant if you're talking about consistent dps. My parse with TSBS on HoT mobs is usually around 60, which is why I rarely use it to dps since Tunare blade and Dagas parse better.:cool:

[Velthak]

Draco is just a special kind of nerd with a slight social disorder. I managed to get my epic sub 60 and combined with a pet, I was able to solo velks lab and KC by myself to 60 without a fungi tunic. Raiding stuff that these dudes are talking about will make you lose that nostalgic feeling that allows you to enjoy this project oh so much. Just...don't do it.

[bigjeff100]

Raiding stuff that these dudes are talking about will make you lose that nostalgic feeling that allows you to enjoy this project oh so much.

[Octopath]

Draco is just a special kind of nerd with a slight social disorder. I managed to get my epic sub 60 and combined with a pet, I was able to solo velks lab and KC by myself to 60 without a fungi tunic. Raiding stuff that these dudes are talking about will make you lose that nostalgic feeling that allows you to enjoy this project oh so much. Just...don't do it.

What race were you if you don't mind me asking?

[Velthak]

Iksar

[Velthak]

Just be prepared to get a taste of this server's armpit by attempting to loot a Soul Leech. Just buy the MQ and save some brain cells.

[Octopath]

Iksar

So if Playing a non iksar, do you think a fungi would be necessary?

[Velthak]

No. The procs for Inny's Curse, Zealot's Incarnadine Sword, and Vampiric Curse all stack. They all share the same spell slot if you manage to get all three going at once. Also, innate iksar regen is really only beneficial during med time. I never tried a fungi in conjunction with the epic proc but it's probably pretty OP. Only benefit to rolling non iksar is having the blood ember greaves, which gives you another FD that's on a different timer. I won't argue the ac/frontal stun immunity debate for what is the best race. Did it suck not being able to use certain gear? Yes. Did it really matter? No. Do you and leave the parsing/min/max for the turd burglars.

[Sonderbeast]

No. The procs for Inny's Curse, Zealot's Incarnadine Sword, and Vampiric Curse all stack. They all share the same spell slot if you manage to get all three going at once. Also, innate iksar regen is really only beneficial during med time. I never tried a fungi in conjunction with the epic proc but it's probably pretty OP. Only benefit to rolling non iksar is having the blood ember greaves, which gives you another FD that's on a different timer. I won't argue the ac/frontal stun immunity debate for what is the best race. Did it suck not being able to use certain gear? Yes. Did it really matter? No. Do you and leave the parsing/min/max for the turd burglars.

In a completely douchey way Velthak finds a way to say exactly what I said 3 pages earlier. Thanks buddy. Nice BP.

[Brut]

Only things better than epic are vulak axe, yeli /lady m swords. Worth it if those are out of reach.

Server is in a permanent state of velious, just get your dps gear, it's still some extra damage on the mobs you hit.

[elwing]

As brut said, through from the pure dps point of view the triplets already drops some upgrade but none are as practical as epic...
Narandi is nowhere near epic, it's dps is much lower, even when it will have the upgraded damage it will still fall behind epic due to the piercing penality... The proc is much worst, the stat are not as good, then there's the resist... But for only 20k it's an interesting pre-epic weapon...

[Rygar]

Here are some actual parsed numbers (consistent control tests) on a level 60 mob in WL (this is in era live data, before Luclin, not P99):
http://web.archive.org/web/20011224091755/http://forums.castersrealm.com:80/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=004872

Note that the mist panther on live back then was a wimp and had low max hit and low ac, and had like TONS of HP so was good to run long parses on.
Test conditions: Level 60 paladin with 255sr and zero item or spell haste vs mist panther in wakening land.

Offensive tests:

Test 1 - Pre-upgrade palladius axe of suck (40/42) no buffs

high 190
average 95
low 24
dpm: 1101
dps: 18
Hit %: 43

Test 2 - Post upgrade Palladius axe of not-near-what-it-was-on-test unbuffed

high 253
average 108
low 41
proc 2 out of 53
dpm: 1635
dps: 27.3
hit %: 53

Test 2 - Palladius axe + avatar

high 299 (max is 325 fyi)
average 163
low 39
proc: 2 of 78
dpm: 2319
dps: 38.7
hit %: 53

Test 3 - Dawncaller (24/22 1hs) no buffs
high 127
average 58
low 15
dpm: 1545
dps: 25.6
hit %: 54


I will say, there isn't many details on the offensive test, the link wasn't working to the original post. Not sure if they were attacking the back vs. tanking the mob (in which case pure DPS / hit % would be higher).

So for argument sake with paladin max haste buffed the DPS numbers above would double. However, on P99 raid mobs with super high AC expect these numbers to be in the toilet.

Funny that ranger with Vulak/Primal weapons and 40% haste is, by my rough calculations (removing the haste... which is actually dividing the DPS by 1.2, not 1.4. 100% haste will turn a 50 delay weapon into a 25 delay weapon), only 7 DPS ahead of a paladin with Vulak Axe (It looked like axe only proc'd 2 out of 70 swings too?).

60 ranger, also with a Vulak weapon.

quote:
40% haste, 1448 atk, 255 str, Tolan's Longsword of the Glade: 15/21, Primal Velium Warsword: 13/20.
Time: 5 minutes

Hit: 353
Miss: 253
Max: 97
Min: 3
Average: 47
Damage: 16,464
Damage Per Min: 3,293
Hit Percent: 58.25%


(that's 54.88 dps)

Obviously disciplines were not in place, but kind of interesting to see. I also found it interesting that the Vulak Axe did not register a single max hit of 325 on that parse (which I assume was like 3+ minutes based on number of hits).

[Kaedain]

Tunare sword is garbage ?? Or just never going to drop ?

[Velthak]

In a completely douchey way Velthak finds a way to say exactly what I said 3 pages earlier. Thanks buddy. Nice BP.

(sorry you take this game too seriously)

[jabic]

I'm very fond of using Innoruuk's Curse, and I have had it for about two-and-a-half years on this box, through a wide swath of gear (getting progressively better as my time as casual scum goes by). I have weapons with better ratios that I will use in certain situations (generally for raids), but time and again I come back to the epic because it checks a lot of boxes in one item (read: Very Well Rounded Item)--resists, good melee and casting stats, relatively good ratio for DPS, some anti-caster properties (2h Bash), hard-to-resist magic damage (Soul Consumption), and some moderately good healing (50 hp/tick from Soul Consumption). I don't run a parser, so take what follows with a grain of salt, of course.

For soloing: The epic shines. Stacking dots and meleeing a mob down with the epic is very efficient (try it before you flame me, please), particularly since Soul Consumption stacks with Boil Blood, Asystole, and Cascading Darkness (215 damage per tick). I think it is a fair question whether the added damage and healing from Soul Consumption reduces downtime as much as a higher DPS weapon would, but anecdotally I find that I need to rest between fights less when using the epic than, say, Rocksmasher. Or, if you have aspirations of soloing mobs like hiero (very doable for a 60 SK without tons of ToV gear--hint: be creative, use some of those oft-ignored spells in your arsenal), who can slow you anyway, having the added Soul Consumption DPS (and heals) should not be shrugged off. For many of the same reasons, the epic can be extremely helpful for other solo camps, like frenzy in Velks, NG bugs in Seb, and king in LGuk.

For duoing: Particularly if you have some solid gear and a shaman buddy (even one without Torpor), Innoruuk's Curse is really nice. Frostreaver's Blessing (or spell regen) plus fungi plus Soul Consumption means that you are regenerating a not-insignificant amount of hp even without lifetapping. Assuming you have dex buff(s) on, you can very often be regenerating 75 hp per tick while standing, plus innate regen (50 hp per tick from Soul Consumption, 15 hp per tick from Fungi, and 10 hp per tick from Frostreaver's Blessing). Bottom line: if you want to be duoing things like 6-necks in WW, BM camp (including trash spiders) in Velks, Lodi, and emperor camp in Seb, Innoruuk's Curse at the very least is very, very helpful. As an aside, toss in BE Greaves and Gauntlets and Crown of Narandi, and you can single pull and tank all day while keeping your mana mostly full in this duo, but I digress.

Raids: Situationally useful. For a mob like Zlexak, for instance, Innoruuk's Curse does stick on him fairly often. If you're doing a good job of dodging the AOEs, wearing a fungi, and have either Frostreaver's Blessing or spell regen on, then Soul Consumption (plus a sprinkling of lifetaps, which also often land on him) will help you need fewer heals and stay up through the fight, while still doing some okay DPS. In many other situations, the +15 MR on the epic is also nice--yes, there are 1h/shield combos that can get you better MR (and, for some, a better ratio), but you still have a weapon that has a solid ratio and an appreciable load of stats at the same time.

So, my answer to the OP's question is that, yes, Innoruuk's Curse is worth it. Is it necessary? No. Does it give you significantly more meaningful choices and opportunities as a SK? Yes, absolutely.

As far as the knight DPS side-conversation, I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole.

Greevtox

[Chardy]

You miss more because your offense and weapon skillcaps are lower by level and by class, and you are comparing a piercing weapon to a 2hs. You are going to have more minimum hits and more misses due to those two hardwired aspects.

Idk what your point is about your big hits, thats irrelevant if you're talking about consistent dps. My parse with TSBS on HoT mobs is usually around 60, which is why I rarely use it to dps since Tunare blade and Dagas parse better.:cool:



Mis-read your post, "numbers" meaning long term DPS as opposed to upper range hits. After I proc primal, I definitely get a consistent upper range hit output on TSBS. I would assume if I keyed my SK, I'd probably see a more consisted 2h dmg output with avatar. I'll have to start parsing, as I'm curious what I could get my SK's DPS up to with Primal, Ntov weaps, aura of battle, and stacking DOTs.


I'm not sure where I'm even going with this...Maybe ill make a DPS cleric next.

[Sonderbeast]

I'm not sure where I'm even going with this...Maybe ill make a DPS cleric next.

you're catching on

[Snaggles]

I got my epic on live around Luclin. Ended up picking a Lance if Thunder too. I remember using the epic a lot on raids to help with the supplemental healing (AE’s, occasional hit, etc). Frankly didn’t parse the two though.

It’s still a very viable weapon on P99. Maybe not “the best” but for looks, stats, and self-healing it’s pretty hard to beat. Prob is it’s a time/money sink and possible pain in the ass for people in high end guilds. For filthy casuals like me it’s not possible. You can buy a Reaver from 12-15k and I saw a Narandi on sale recently for 15k. Some people have the option of just looting something on par. I guess it really depends on your capacity to complete a difficult epic quest and how much you want it.

Discounting a sk’s dps completely is a slippery slope because you gear like a toolbox. Since knights aren’t employed to DPS it’s also not worth debating them compared to proper classes. Apples to apples a NTOV monk or rogue will do way more damage and even have the advantage of not facing the mob. We didn’t find some type of 20 year loophole where a class with inferior skill caps is actually a better dps class.

[elwing]

I would be annoyed if I had to choose between my epic and a lance of thunder... Despite the piercing penality its dps is probably better than epic, but stat, resist and proc wise it's much worst...

[drakkan]

I appreciate the conversation about this, a lot of good information. I killed Rharzar and now looking for decrepit hide MQ. Gbank has a leech I believe but the hole kill is going to be annoying to get a group down there - most of my free time is weekends and we know what top tier guilds do on the weekend on this server. The other hurdle is the sky drop because my guild doesn't do it anymore, bigger fish to fry - I guess I'll be looking for another MQ on that too.

[Snaggles]

I would be annoyed if I had to choose between my epic and a lance of thunder... Despite the piercing penality its dps is probably better than epic, but stat, resist and proc wise it's much worst...

I had a Eye of the Rigtorgn and Soul Defiler too. Mostly trying to illustrate my odd little anecdote still have the epic some validity even past Kunark. It’s a good weapon and definitely useful but that’s a long and difficult quest (for most) on this server.

[Brut]

I appreciate the conversation about this, a lot of good information. I killed Rharzar and now looking for decrepit hide MQ. Gbank has a leech I believe but the hole kill is going to be annoying to get a group down there - most of my free time is weekends and we know what top tier guilds do on the weekend on this server. The other hurdle is the sky drop because my guild doesn't do it anymore, bigger fish to fry - I guess I'll be looking for another MQ on that too.

Solo'd the mimic part back in Kunark, duo'd mummy with a shaman. Worst part about the Hole is getting the ghost to spawns.

[Troxx]

Per p99 wiki 2hpierce caps at same skill level as 2hs and 2hb. Unless these values are wrong there seems to be no draw back to using a 2hp weapon other than the retarded animation of the swing.

[Crede]

Per p99 wiki 2hpierce caps at same skill level as 2hs and 2hb. Unless these values are wrong there seems to be no draw back to using a 2hp weapon other than the retarded animation of the swing.

Isn't SK/Pally piercing capped at 210 in lieu of 225 until the 2h bonus patch drops?

[Troxx]

I don't know, wiki may be wrong is why i ask.

[elwing]

Pally cap offense 5point lower than sk but got the same piercing cap as other weapon, sk got a much lower piercing cap on p99...
To summarize, sk are better with all blunt and slash weapon, pally are better with piercing...
Bottom line, let a pally guildie loot that lance of thunder...

[24kanthony]

Isn't SK/Pally piercing capped at 210 in lieu of 225 until the 2h bonus patch drops?

Correct, SK cap is 210.

[drakkan]

Now the real question - who's coming down to clear crypt for my Dark Shroud turn in;)

I've excited about getting this epic done - thanks for everyone's input on this.

[Rygar]

I used to sell 'ghost popping services' for Ghost of Glohnor, but am no longer an active player. It is same as anyone can imagine... I've had him pop after 1 cycle of fallen erudites (~22mins), I've not had him pop for an entire day.

I'm not sure your level or what alts you have, but I could keep the 5 PHs down for entire cycle with my 60 epic monk (no fungi, just reinvig velious BP).

A necro or enchanter can easily keep all 6 clear (one is in the opposite graveyard). Trick is to /target it and lull until aggro resist. Just be careful as there is a roaming rock golem that will assist, have to wall look and make sure he is pathed out of undead city.

[Danth]

As a side note, you can safely log in and out inside the tunnel leading to Dartain's room, so if you have a set group to go down there you can potentially take a break if you get a run with no spawn and try again another day.

Danth

[Rygar]

Forgot to mention, for now Dartain the Lost is flagged as undead, so need ITU to walk by his area. But after patch, i think regular invis will work. There may also be an additional fallen erudite up top in the west graveyard near crypt if nilbog / telin believed in the map i linked.

Those skeletons are actually excellent solo exp for any class that can handle them (terrible loot though). Careful as they are on MinionsofUnderfoot faction, don't fight them if you want to keep hole faction. Golems and elementals will assist, but ghosts don't give a shit.

I won't say how, but kindle can also be pulled to crypt solo, used for pet or exp.

After next patch, if they fix ghost faction (some are supposed to be indifferent up top), it will be cake to pull her and even exp up in tower.

[Dolalin]

"A tremendous shield"... lol. I love item names in eq.

[fzzzt]

I spent 55-60 in hole parsing Narandi's Lance vs Reaver (which somehow works on those mobs) and they were comparable, both in the 40s DPS. The lance procced probably every fight but sometimes not until after the mob was half dead (with dex gear on). Reaver is, well, Reaver.

Ultimately, my SK is fun to play, so I play it.

[Raev]

BRING IT XAEOPHI

Also, I think both Knight classes are hugely underrated here. I bet SKs are roughly equal to Warriors both on raids (+15-20 dps from lifetaps if you don't mind medding up afterwards) and for XP (+15-20 dps from the 44th necromancer pet, and don't forget Banshee Aura & Vampiric Embrace taps chipping in). Once the 2H upgrade comes out I guess SKs are closing in on Monks. On TAKP my Monk (17/19+15/18, 3xAOB) would occasionally lose to Rocksmasher SKs nuking hard with a pet.

[Sonderbeast]

*sensible chuckle*

[drakkan]

Anyways, I completed my epic last night at lvl 53. 2HS skill is only 130 or so, should hit harder and most consistent within a few days. The proc is so nice! It also looks insanely bad ass. Thanks for the replies to the thread!

[stebbins99]

Congrats on your epic!!

[Wickedbane]

Congratulations!

[aaezil]

BRING IT XAEOPHI

Also, I think both Knight classes are hugely underrated here. I bet SKs are roughly equal to Warriors both on raids (+15-20 dps from lifetaps if you don't mind medding up afterwards) and for XP (+15-20 dps from the 44th necromancer pet, and don't forget Banshee Aura & Vampiric Embrace taps chipping in). Once the 2H upgrade comes out I guess SKs are closing in on Monks. On TAKP my Monk (17/19+15/18, 3xAOB) would occasionally lose to Rocksmasher SKs nuking hard with a pet.

Sorry knights parse about 15-20 dps below warriors on this box (given both 60, both have good weps/haste/buffs)

Known verifiable information people...

[Quizlop]

BRING IT XAEOPHI

Also, I think both Knight classes are hugely underrated here. I bet SKs are roughly equal to Warriors both on raids (+15-20 dps from lifetaps if you don't mind medding up afterwards) and for XP (+15-20 dps from the 44th necromancer pet, and don't forget Banshee Aura & Vampiric Embrace taps chipping in). Once the 2H upgrade comes out I guess SKs are closing in on Monks. On TAKP my Monk (17/19+15/18, 3xAOB) would occasionally lose to Rocksmasher SKs nuking hard with a pet.

I don't know about those numbers, but I am pretty sure that Lifetaps have a (non-classic) much higher resist rate here than on TAKP, making them not terribly useful against raid mobs.

[Octopath]

Anyways, I completed my epic last night at lvl 53. 2HS skill is only 130 or so, should hit harder and most consistent within a few days. The proc is so nice! It also looks insanely bad ass. Thanks for the replies to the thread!

Congrats on the epic! Did you mq any of it? Thoughts on the quest? Thanks

[Jimjam]

Sorry knights parse about 15-20 dps below warriors on this box (given both 60, both have good weps/haste/buffs)

Known verifiable information people...

Triple attacking with a strong primary seems better to a few extra life taps to me, but my sk (my first toon!) hasn't made 60 yet.

[Raev]

Sorry knights parse about 15-20 dps below warriors on this box

Isn't that exactly what I said? Remember that unless the SK does the parse their lifetap damage won't show up. And I imagine that most decent SKs are not inclined to time their lifetaps between swings just so their 100 man zerg raid can kill a dragon 0.01% faster anyway and instead are busy helping with the pull. But they could if they wanted to!

I am pretty sure that Lifetaps have a (non-classic) much higher resist rate here than on TAKP

TAKP has the late-Velious immunities patch. I was quite surprised the first time I saw an Enchanter nuking Lord Yelinak! So SKs won't be able to tap Kael bosses and such yet. But I would expect that if Shaman slow lands 10% or so on TOV dragons after tash/malo that SK/Necro taps should land nearly 100%. I haven't done it, though, so perhaps a real SK will prove me wrong.

[Danth]

Isn't that exactly what I said? Remember that unless the SK does the parse their lifetap damage won't show up. And I imagine that most decent SKs are not inclined to time their lifetaps between swings just so their 100 man zerg raid can kill a dragon 0.01% faster anyway and instead are busy helping with the pull. But they could if they wanted to!

Not just that, but if folks would remember that the game includes more than just raid bosses, Shadow Knight damage-over-time spells, if stacked up, add about 30 DPS just on their own. It's not sustainable long term, but gives the class decent moderate-duration burst if needed. No, it's not a "DPS class", but it's still a handy capability to have, when needed.

Danth

[drakkan]

Congrats on the epic! Did you mq any of it? Thoughts on the quest? Thanks

I MQ'd the decrepit hide for 10k and then got the leech from my guild bank (the piece I was waiting on for a few weeks). We had started doing sky again the last 3 weeks, consistently, and got my abrogation blade which I was planning to MQ but turns out I didn't have to. I imagine it would be a bit more nerving trying to double MQ that step with the leech and the abrogation blade, so that was nice I didn't need to.

The quest is definitely manageable. It definitely takes a good bit of help from some people. I got the key off a mimic after requesting a dock group in the hole to pull them. Once I had the mimic key, my guild cleared to the dude in the castle at the hole, which is a pretty short venture into the hole. The tank was a 60 ToV warrior, so it was a cake walk. The crypt part was a bit annoying, I got a group of guildies down there (we jumped into the hole zone in) (shaman, sk, enc, and another dps). We did probably 5 cycles and on the last one before our healer had to leave, he popped, did the turn in and killed the dude. I'll need to do this piece again for my earring and chest piece that I'd like to have as gear.

The leech would not have been as smooth without a high end guild, so my experience with this is a bit uncommon for the average person completing this quest. I also needed to bring out a crew for the final fight. We did it with another 60 warrior, full tov gear, 2 shamans, bard, 3 rogues, a ranger, a monk, a druid for spot heals, only 1 enchanter (he was spamming rune and died when Lhnrac had 50% health, so I was a bit nervous but our tank was a boss) and a cleric..yea. It ended up being a bit overkill but I didn't want to have to do a CR with the entire crew of people that came out to help. A warrior using evasive disc seems to be the way to go so that the mob has less of a chance to perform the 500 dmg proc.

So there's a lot of elements, especially at 53, that I needed help with from guildies or a group, every encounter pretty much requires a group to ensure your success but if you have the right class makeup, a bunch of the fights can prob be duoed or trioed. The quest is pretty hard, or at least time consuming. There's definitely bottle necks, like the decrepit hide, sky sword and the leech. If you don't have a great guild, this epic is very expensive or possibly not within reach. The two hole parts are very doable, just the zone is always pretty dead. If the hole was busy and easy to get groups, that would of been a breeze

The quest was fun because if it's difficulty and the sword is awesome.

[Issar]

Congrats man!

[Octopath]

I MQ'd the decrepit hide for 10k and then got the leech from my guild bank (the piece I was waiting on for a few weeks). We had started doing sky again the last 3 weeks, consistently, and got my abrogation blade which I was planning to MQ but turns out I didn't have to. I imagine it would be a bit more nerving trying to double MQ that step with the leech and the abrogation blade, so that was nice I didn't need to.

The quest is definitely manageable. It definitely takes a good bit of help from some people. I got the key off a mimic after requesting a dock group in the hole to pull them. Once I had the mimic key, my guild cleared to the dude in the castle at the hole, which is a pretty short venture into the hole. The tank was a 60 ToV warrior, so it was a cake walk. The crypt part was a bit annoying, I got a group of guildies down there (we jumped into the hole zone in) (shaman, sk, enc, and another dps). We did probably 5 cycles and on the last one before our healer had to leave, he popped, did the turn in and killed the dude. I'll need to do this piece again for my earring and chest piece that I'd like to have as gear.

The leech would not have been as smooth without a high end guild, so my experience with this is a bit uncommon for the average person completing this quest. I also needed to bring out a crew for the final fight. We did it with another 60 warrior, full tov gear, 2 shamans, bard, 3 rogues, a ranger, a monk, a druid for spot heals, only 1 enchanter (he was spamming rune and died when Lhnrac had 50% health, so I was a bit nervous but our tank was a boss) and a cleric..yea. It ended up being a bit overkill but I didn't want to have to do a CR with the entire crew of people that came out to help. A warrior using evasive disc seems to be the way to go so that the mob has less of a chance to perform the 500 dmg proc.

So there's a lot of elements, especially at 53, that I needed help with from guildies or a group, every encounter pretty much requires a group to ensure your success but if you have the right class makeup, a bunch of the fights can prob be duoed or trioed. The quest is pretty hard, or at least time consuming. There's definitely bottle necks, like the decrepit hide, sky sword and the leech. If you don't have a great guild, this epic is very expensive or possibly not within reach. The two hole parts are very doable, just the zone is always pretty dead. If the hole was busy and easy to get groups, that would of been a breeze

The quest was fun because if it's difficulty and the sword is awesome.

Yikes yeah from a casual player who won’t be able to raid much, this is pretty discouraging. Could I pay to mq some of this stuff? I know the leech is at 100k alone.

[Legidias]

SK epic is the most MQ friendly epic in game. You can pay for entire thing to just loot epic at the end off final mob.

[Octopath]

SK epic is the most MQ friendly epic in game. You can pay for entire thing to just loot epic at the end off final mob.

Awesome! I better get to porting on my Druid. I’ve got some cash to save

[drakkan]

SK epic is the most MQ friendly epic in game. You can pay for entire thing to just loot epic at the end off final mob.

Yea, technically you could Mq the last fight and literally loot your epic. I feel like over the years I’ve seen a few people do that in ec tunnel broadcasting it but I believe it was 2-300k. I think finding that would be difficult and rather mq’ing a lot of main parts would be more reasonable, such as, decrepit hide for 10k, abrogation blade 2k, and leech for 80-100k. The other parts I think are doable without a guild. Speaking of the hole not being busy, last night /who all hole came back with the list to be cut short there were too many people!

[Legidias]

Yeah, hole busy till monday

[White_knight]

If I had a ikky sk with epic fungi and 10th ring I would never log out.

[drakkan]

Iksar 2hs animation is such trash. I’d be embarrassed to swing the epic lol.