Class(es) that get most/least mileage from BiS

[commongood]

Like the title says, which classes do you think benefit most from "BiS" end game gear. Looking at my necro I can see that of course it would be beneficial to my character, be that while raiding or otherwise, to have an additional 7-900 mana/hp but it actually feels like it equates to not that much. It's maybe 2 extra twitches I could fire off during a hard encounter. Of course resists help to survive AoEs but still... being a purecaster it just doesn't feel that impactful. More of a prestige thing.

[ScaringChildren]

Necros probably benefit most from items that give hp regen.

Melees usually benefit the most from items.

[Cecily]

Off the top of my head, I’d say there’s no class that’s more than +25% effective with BIS over some random newly 60 with an entry-level raiding kit. It’s more efficient to recruit a new person and get +75% of a person than to make one your old persons +25%. You can see this strategy (zerging) employed by every raiding guild on this server, ever, up until such a time when they get enough +25% people to do encounters with less people. This new strategy is called skill. :rolleyes:

[zodium]

I have no frame of reference for other classes, so I can't tell if it's the most, but the power difference between your average compost green-armored pushover and a proper purple, fully clickied up Druid is so vast--both in terms of encounters that can be attempted or meaningfully contributed to, and how much can be contributed--that they may as well be different classes.

[Cecily]

Agreed. 4 PoTGs instead of 3.

[Ella`Ella]

What's more impactful than gear is a player that actually knows mechanics and their class.

Taking it to the next level is a player that also knows how their class complements/works with other classes in their raid group.

I'll take that player in banded over half the people in BiS.

[zodium]

If your Druid can cast 4 POTGs in a row, you wasted a lot of DKP gearing them extremely wrong. :o

lol if your druid has more mana than HP, just lol

[Cecily]

Don’t worry, she’s got a turtle belt for +atk.

[Tecmos Deception]

I didn't read the OP as talking strictly about raiding. And BIS gear can make an incredibly amount of difference doing other stuff, like powerleveling friends, handling tougher camps with only 1-3 people, being a showoff (tunnelfashion epeen measuring aside, you know it's fun sometimes), etc. I think most of the time it's clickies and procs and worn effects that make the bigger difference, rather than just raw stats, unless maybe you're a pure melee class.

[Pringles]

BiS Shaman and Enchanter get the most mileage if you take them out and actually play non-raid content.

Gatmanno just mad he will never be Gatmanno the Pirate. :)

[Jan Jensen]

Given this era's simplistic content, Warrior is the only answer.

Given this server's grotesque raiding, monk makes for a worthy runner-up.

[Rygar]

For casters, guessing that wizards technically benefit the most from BiS (more mana + FT15 + epic + buffs = more damage). I didn't do the math, not sure if they can squeeze off an extra nuke or two.

Clerics as well, extra healing.

Sadly, BiS is messed up on P99. There is supposed to be a mana cap for all classes (50% of +mana items relevant to your base mana), allegedly Flowing Thought should not stack (hence extremely minimal benefit during an encounter), and resist system should basically give very limited benefit to 150 vs 255 resist.

Melee of course most benefit from BiS, but mainly only weapons and +atk items. So i would argue rogue has best damage increase with their weapons. Monk close 2nd, maybe first if triple attack stays.

[Cen]

The bard and cleric epics of course change them into almost new classes in terms of mechanics. The mage as a runner up to the two obvious gets a massive dps increase there.

[ScaringChildren]

For casters, guessing that wizards technically benefit the most from BiS (more mana + FT15 + epic + buffs = more damage). I didn't do the math, not sure if they can squeeze off an extra nuke or two.

Clerics as well, extra healing.

Sadly, BiS is messed up on P99. There is supposed to be a mana cap for all classes (50% of +mana items relevant to your base mana), allegedly Flowing Thought should not stack (hence extremely minimal benefit during an encounter), and resist system should basically give very limited benefit to 150 vs 255 resist.

Melee of course most benefit from BiS, but mainly only weapons and +atk items. So i would argue rogue has best damage increase with their weapons. Monk close 2nd, maybe first if triple attack stays.

Isn't the wizard epic buff a 3 mana per tick?

Doesn't seem that helpful to me. It really should be like 35 mana per tick like Necro Demi Lich or something.

[Erati]

the power difference between your average compost green-armored pushover and a proper purple, fully clickied up Druid is so vast--both in terms of encounters that can be attempted or meaningfully contributed to, and how much can be contributed--that they may as well be different classes.

this ^ Druid is night and day.

also

Don’t worry, she’s got a turtle belt for +atk.

don't underestimate Wyntir, she has already defeated me once :(

Rematch one day? :D

[Arkanjil]

I would say a warrior ranks up there pretty high. A starter 60 war could have somewhere around 5400-5800hp - 1000-1200ac - 21-36% haste. Once you get BiS, you’re gonna have like 6875hp and 1600+ ac, as well as ~240 MR with flower. That’s a HUGE difference in mitigation and lasting power on both raids and group content. Assuming BiS also, you’ll have a wealth of clickies to enhance your power with as well.

[Erati]

I would say a warrior ranks up there pretty high. A starter 60 war could have somewhere around 5400-5800hp - 1000-1200ac - 21-36% haste. Once you get BiS, you’re gonna have like 6875hp and 1600+ ac, as well as ~240 MR with flower. That’s a HUGE difference in mitigation and lasting power on both raids and group content. Assuming BiS also, you’ll have a wealth of clickies to enhance your power with as well.

But at the end of the day you still require healing and thusly the milage from BIS can only take you as far as your healer pals can.

The solo artist classes are the ones that truly gain the most from pushing their characters over the top with raid gear and clickies. Suddenly they can handle nasty charm breaks or power leveling insane packs of mobs because they have such high hp and mitigation that basic group gear doesn't provide in this era.

[branamil]

Think in terms of content unlocking.

INT caster. You can still do the same things if you had 2nd or 3rd BiS with some luck. Least benefit from getting BiS.

pallies and SKs and rangers means you can offtank things for a few seconds longer and maybe solo some slightly harder quest mobs.

BiS for bard is pretty useless besides instruments. Really only resists matter but you can max those without BiS. Your dps and HP will never be high enough to change anything.

BiS for cleric just means you can cast like 4 more complete Heals than the next guy. Whoopee

Rogue - you do like 20 dps more than the next guy. Still can't solo anything.

Shamans and monks - unlocks some top tier solo content which is pretty obnoxious. Probably the most or tied for most benefit from BiS.

Warriors - pretty much the entire game revolves around warriors and would be impossible without them. Especially AOW, vyemm, tunare, etc. benefits the most from BiS. You can also solo some surprising things with a soulfire probably.

[Cecily]

Velious was beat in Kunark gear, btw.

[fiveeauxfour]

BIS monk gets pretty strong. Damage output and tankiness gets crazy, especially with discs rolling. It's like playing a different class when you get some top tier gear.

Necro vp staff also changes the class substantially.

Least milage would probably be the int casters. Though they do get access to the clicky robes and larger mana pools, the classes still play the same, it just allows players to unclench their assholes when playing.

[bigjeff100]

If your Druid can cast 4 POTGs in a row, you wasted a lot of DKP gearing them extremely wrong. :o

lol if your druid has more mana than HP, just lol

That's me!!! I'm that guy haha!

[kjs86z]

Its more about having clickies vs. not having clickies where you start to see insane powerspikes.

Its probably warrior for raids then shaman / monk / enc for solo content capabilities (see Kelz soloing spore king, etc).

Still, I stress, you could be in crap gear with every clicky in the world and be far more effective than an equipped-only full BiS with empty bags.

[Wonkie]

rogue needs epic and primal then its just pointless hpquest

[Cecily]

If mob hp > 0 continue to backstab. The primal and Vyemm’s Fang are really just so everyone else can get on with their day 2-3 seconds sooner. You owe it to yourself and the rest of your guild to put in years of raiding to make that happen.

[Wikipedia]

I mean in terms of an item's stat budget, Necro and Shaman are the main two that can get genuine demonstrable use of a +100hp/+100mana Vulak item or whatever in practically every situation, especially on non-aoe bosses where other classes can get zero value from HP.

That said you could argue that both those classes have limits in terms of usefulness, i.e. shamans can dump extra mana into nukes but on velious content the only nuke that lands well on bosses only does like 2 DPM max so yeah.

[Nexii]

Warrior gets the most benefit.

[aaezil]

Its far less benefit than say just 1 extra friend. Thats how little it matters. (Sorry you all care and fight over it so much)

[Nixtar]

Its far less benefit than say just 1 extra friend. Thats how little it matters. (Sorry you all care and fight over it so much)

How about if your friend is rocking dem BiS slots? That's like BFFBiS!

[enjchanter]

I want to say that shaman and enchanter are probably the top contenders for best BIS mileage. An enchanter can solo alot of content without a surplus of gear but getting bis makes it less about luck. With an Aego and my 10th ring, my enchanter is pretty tanky and survived just fine getting ran over by a train in HS and my largish mana pool allows me to man handle adds and makes me much more capable of using mana hog spells like rapture and boltrans in groups. Being closer to bis on my enchanter also allows me to maintain max charisma while still having good stats which lower tier enchanters will struggle with.

Part of me wants to say necro because logically they benefit alot from extra gear like a shaman would except when I think about what content you will unlock as a necro having BIS I cant think of much (I'm still trying to collect a solid strat to solo emp chottal on my necro with strings and clickies)

I say shamans are a contender because while I have not played one, I think a shaman benefits in roughly the same way but are not limited like a necro.

In essence, I think content unlocking is where the answer lies because a top tier rogue probably cant solo anything worth while, same with a warrior, same with a cleric and so forth.

*deposits 2 pennies into opinion-machine*

[ScaringChildren]

With every piece of gear I loot, it's one more "SEE! I DID DO SOMETHING WITH MY LIFE, DAD!!"

[Oleris]

shaman is the easy choice here.
Enchanters can survive a bit more if their pet breaks.
Necromancers with soulwell + more hp/mana can kill nonstop.

[mickmoranis]

Necros probably benefit most from a prenerf COS it's easily a 60k item

could'nt resist :shrug emoji:

[mickmoranis]

as far as op's question, that monk that has BIS shit and posts videos of him soloing everything kinda implies to me that monk BIS is the most powerful character in classic EQ

https://youtu.be/dwH5myJ6CIk?t=2

Altho Im sure a warrior could do the same, but having the utility of a monk makes them able to do more? What about SK?

[Siberious]

BIS monk gets pretty strong. Damage output and tankiness gets crazy, especially with discs rolling. It's like playing a different class when you get some top tier gear.

Necro vp staff also changes the class substantially.

Least milage would probably be the int casters. Though they do get access to the clicky robes and larger mana pools, the classes still play the same, it just allows players to unclench their assholes when playing.

Can you provide some examples of the substantial change in necromancer with VP staff? I have VP staff and it doesn't enable me to do any new content. It's sometimes nice solo when I'm lom and get adds. I think the necro epic is more powerful due to not losing Mana to snare resists while adding more free dmg. Vexing is better in almost all cases than VP staff and Vexing is resisted much less than snares.

I do love clickies though and the VP staff is damn fun.

P.S. I don't consider using HEBs combined with VP staff to speed up medding when I die solo/group/raid wipe as a substantial change. Getting a clicky Regen from a druid and afking or just afking when solo is less work and just as effective.

[Atmas]

In a lot of cases having some particular clickies both in general and class specific really makes a significant difference.

In terms of straight stats I think at this point in the timeline melees get more bang for the buck. On my Paladin I've gotten geared enough to be able to tank a lot of the harder end game content. Having a decent mana pool allows me to heal other melee through a lot of fights. Clickies like flowers, strings, beads, sow sword, etc give a lot of utility and survivability.

[ScaringChildren]

could'nt resist :shrug emoji:

I wanted one so bad, then I got one the other day for 16k + some trades.

Now I want a Soulwell staff.

That staff seems like it would be a game changer.

[Solist]

From a class doing the class job in purely 1+1=2 sense... Monk by far. The way mend scales with gear is fairly broken. Warriors are a very close 2nd however. Nothing scales like warrior/monk mitigation thanks to broken lack of AC softcap here.

For a class to radically change its potential I'd agree with Gats that it's druids. No one class totally changes the potential of what is possible like a druid geared properly.

The least scaling class would likely be wizard. Nothing matters to a wizard except shissar elementalist's cane in raid scene or rend robe out of raid. Without those items you're about 4 or 4.5dps different when EC geared vs absolute BIS and max possible FT.

Everything else is just more survivability really. Enchanters in full BiS survive more often on breaks, they gain exactly zero power. Some HP regen etc yes with 10th ring etc. Shamans are much the same, you slowly pick up a few more mobs you can kill outright at peak turtle/defensive play efficiency and DS pots with max velious AC. A shaman in velious gear just kills stuff faster than one in kunark gear as you can afford to let torp drop for a tick per minute incrementally more often with every 50-60 worn AC increase.

Everything else is just par for the course really, your potential doesnt change, you just get better at what you've always been able to do.

Classes without their VP game changers vs with is the real discussion. VP is the defining zone for most classes.

[commongood]

Can you provide some examples of the substantial change in necromancer with VP staff? I have VP staff and it doesn't enable me to do any new content. It's sometimes nice solo when I'm lom and get adds. I think the necro epic is more powerful due to not losing Mana to snare resists while adding more free dmg. Vexing is better in almost all cases than VP staff and Vexing is resisted much less than snares.

I do love clickies though and the VP staff is damn fun.

P.S. I don't consider using HEBs combined with VP staff to speed up medding when I die solo/group/raid wipe as a substantial change. Getting a clicky Regen from a druid and afking or just afking when solo is less work and just as effective.

I get where you're coming from. Getting the VP staff was somewhat less "ZOMG" than I had envisioned. If we're talking about soloing hard to do stuff then Vexing is a MUST and Soulwell won't cut it. Like when you're Deflux tanking unslowed lvl 55 mobs the 122 heal per tick of Vexing is unbeatable and the scaling of Soulwell makes it a non-starter.

Where I've found the most use for VP staff has been when trying to be more effective on raids. Like when on an encounter where you can't really sit down then it's very nice to use the stick for free healing on yourself while twitching away. Then it does very much matter that you aren't spending ~500 mana on a Vexing. It's also nice with Manna Robe though that interaction is very min/max'ing.

Same when soloing trivial stuff it just makes you more effecient.

[Danth]

Altho Im sure a warrior could do the same, but having the utility of a monk makes them able to do more? What about SK?

A Shadow Knight benefits from high-end gearing, obviously--but a Monk benefits more. Shadow Knights can reach or exceed the AC (soft)cap with readily-acquired mid-range equipment. Monks are a leather class with generally low AC on most of their lower- and mid-range equipment. However, for some reason they get a very high AC cap, so with high-end gearing they can sort of break class balance and become a character that does Rogue-level damage while having better overall damage reduction than anything but a Warrior using his discipline. Hence why their AC cap (and, I believe, return from AC as well) was in time severely nerfed--but nerfed during Luclin, not Velious, so it's outside P1999's scope.

Danth

[Pringles]

Monk avoidance actually outclassed even warriors discs and the AC hardcap(there was a hardcap no softcap during velious) was easily reached hence Furor's massive bitchfest lol

[Maschenny]

I've seen three mentions here of the druid class being radically different if geared properly. Can someone explain this with some specific examples?

[Maschenny]

But, Gatmanno specifically mentioned HP>Mana as being the pivotal difference between a druid that is geared appropriately and inappropriately. What kind of huge difference can this make?

[Nexii]

Es legs or robe for free heals, tunare gloves for free DS, epic for dot and snare, SS wrist for extra dot, warden symbol of tunare for root. I'm sure I'm missing stuff

SS BP + Fungi = 30 hp/tick
With manastone that's 10 mana/tick whether sitting or not, thats almost on par with C2

[Erati]

But, Gatmanno specifically mentioned HP>Mana as being the pivotal difference between a druid that is geared appropriately and inappropriately. What kind of huge difference can this make?

HP and AC from raid gear means a Druid can become not as squishy as your typical cookie cutter EC geared one. Having more HP means when you have a charm break ( which is what all high end solo ing turns into for most ) you won't get waffle stomped into the ground by your hasted pet and can channel a recharm.

I have had to channel recharms while tanking 22 or A4 hobbits countless times and its because of the oodles of extra HP and AC I have from raid gear, I'm able to manage the situation. Without the extra stats, your margin for error shrinks considerably and you have to re-consider even attempting some encounters solo because it basically turns into an RNG crapshoot whether your charm will break or not.

So in a nutshell, a raid geared BIS druid can approach a wide variety of difficult encounters with solo success that a normal druid couldn't even consider as a possibility.

[Maschenny]

Ahh, that clears it up! Thank you.

[blobsnarf]

I've seen three mentions here of the druid class being radically different if geared properly. Can someone explain this with some specific examples?

Druids have the ability to charm mid to high-dps pets in a handful of zones or play enchanter with puppet strings. By raid gearing your druid you can mimic what an enchanter with 10k in droppables can do. It truly is amazing.

[zodium]

Druids can reach roughly 5k HP and 1200AC with full buffs, and using Ro's Sundering and Fixation they can generate more aggro than probably any other class.

This lets you play tank on encounters like Fear golems, Lodizal, Ragefire, some Sky bosses, fake Faydedar, King, etc. It turns you into a puller by allowing you to bomb in, Ensnare a select mob (e.g., King Tranix or a DN weapon rat), haul ass back out and Egress, then come back for the kill--often faster than an FD class could do it. Crowd control using mobility becomes trivial even in tighter spaces or for summoning mobs, or you can just offtank them while self healing. DS pots + Druid damage shield are fairly great DPS.

Strings further increase your monstrous potential by leveraging your 70% pet haste and damage shield, or, at least in Velious, you can just charm one of the mammals that exist in most zones, both of which combine amazingly with a Spring Robe for mana- and aggro-free half Torpor. (Strings and Spring Robe are the most important clickies, IMO). And, thanks to your immense survivability, you don't particularly need to fear charm breaks. Most often, you can simply facetank a mob that would vaporize an Enchanter until it's recharmed.

This is all on top of the "normal" class abilities, which you can do at the same time as these things. And while I did my best here, it's hard to capture all the benefits in a generalized sense. You definitely need to understand how you can use all your abilities on a per encounter basis to realize them. But, to put it shortly: Druids were designed to be a jack of all trades class. With appropriate Velious gear, they can be turned into a master of all trades, though what's "appropriate" requires going a bit off the beaten path.

[Erati]

They are prob still the worst VP class tho

I have brought my druid to VP like three times total and two of those was to loot an item lol.

[Maschenny]

Lastly, do you know the whereabouts of these known pirates?

[Baylan295]

They are prob still the worst VP class tho

This raises a good question. What does a Druid do in VP?

[icedwards]

This raises a good question. What does a Druid do in VP?

"sow plz"

[Erati]

This raises a good question. What does a Druid do in VP?

PoTG and look really really cool.

[Baylan295]

PoTG and look really really cool.

The inability to HB and the short duration of the fights makes me say no thanks to PoTG.

SoW is ok. But I have Shadowknight friends for that (SoW Sword FTW).

[Supaskillz]

I am confused that most of the responses are for casters. Melee classes benefit in every situation with BiS gear whether its raid group or solo.

Most casters get minimal benefit on raids with BiS gear and really only notice the value of their BiS gear when soloing at the very boundaries of what they can do, by allowing them to live through a situation where they otherwise might die (like druids soloing 22 while my shitty geared shaman is laughing and soloing it with ease).

Give my rogue BIS and my dps will go up probably 20% or more. That is a pretty big deal since that is his one and only job.

[Erati]

Potg kinda useless in there tho longest fight I've had and won was 90sec hosh, and that's a super long one. Look really cool I agree.

PoTG is for all that recovery mana regeneration after wipes when every single person needs cleric buffs again and there's only 2 clerics because no one wants to park or bring their cleric to VP.

You then click off POTG right before the fight and use HB.

[Erati]

Give my rogue BIS and my dps will go up probably 20% or more. That is a pretty big deal since that is his one and only job.

Rogues deal damage with or without BIS gear, so with acquiring BIS gear it doesn't really change what they do or capable of doing, they just become slightly more efficient.

There's a big difference in gear making your class slightly more efficient and gear allowing your class to take on encounters it couldn't previously consider.

[evilkorn]

Rogues deal damage with or without BIS gear, so with acquiring BIS gear it doesn't really change what they do or capable of doing, they just become slightly more efficient.

There's a big difference in gear making your class slightly more efficient and gear allowing your class to take on encounters it couldn't previously consider.

What'd Stab-bot-ani end up with? Still using Hsagra?

[Erati]

What'd Stab-bot-ani end up with? Still using Hsagra?

Dozer dagger and Ragebringer

[Asteria]

From a class doing the class job in purely 1+1=2 sense... Monk by far. The way mend scales with gear is fairly broken. Warriors are a very close 2nd however. Nothing scales like warrior/monk mitigation thanks to broken lack of AC softcap here.


My favorite post that I read here so far but there are some very good ones from other authors too. I think pickup style groups will generally notice the added power of a BiS equipped toon the most when that class is tanking or perhaps doing very difficult or pummeling pulls on a regular basis. I suppose a monk could be a good group tank here on P99 with high aggro proc weapons? The defense of monks is apparently a much different story on TakP server.... ;):p