Eye of Zomm

[Rais]

Not agroing KoS mobs.

[Ropethunder]

Haynar-Src-Eye of Zomm's will now aggro mobs, based on the caster's faction.

Doesn't this defeat the purpose of Eye of Zomm as a scouting tool? Where would it ever be used now?

[kanras]

It's classic behavior.

[nilbog]

When the eye gets near any mob that would agro on it, the mob attacks the eye. Since it only has a couple of hit points, and zero AC it dies VERY quickly. And of course, just like a pet you also then inherit the agro (ie, you are added to the mobs hate list).
http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8629

That's a good guide for eye of zomm.

[Ropethunder]

Your link describes Zomm spawned by "Holgresh Elder Beads" as a pulling tool. Considering this item came out in Luclin and mages can't FD, then your link does not describe a guide for classic use of Zomm.

I believe the original intention was for it be a scouting tool and it has worked well in this limited capacity being non-aggro.

There are some times that have been implemented differently here because it is overpowered or "makes sense" such as rune swords not proccing and boats sailing backwards. Despite not being purely classic, Zomm works best as a non-aggressive scouting tool and it also "makes sense".

Please reconsider reverting this change.

[nilbog]

Your link describes Zomm spawned by "Holgresh Elder Beads" as a pulling tool. Considering this item came out in Luclin and mages can't FD, then your link does not describe a guide for classic use of Zomm.

I believe the original intention was for it be a scouting tool and it has worked well in this limited capacity being non-aggro.

There are some times that have been implemented differently here because it is overpowered or "makes sense" such as rune swords not proccing and boats sailing backwards. Despite not being purely classic, Zomm works best as a non-aggressive scouting tool and it also "makes sense".

Please reconsider reverting this change.

?? Holgresh elder beads came out in Velious from the flying monkey caves in wakening lands. That article is from 2001, which is before Luclin.

The eye of zomm is actually better the way it is now. It means you can pull with it, and people CAN'T send it on non-risk 30 second invite missions for coth in kos dungeons. I played a magician on live for a long time. I can tell you when TOV raid time came around, I was sending the eye to invite people for coth. In dungeon situations, a non-aggro eye completely trivializes some areas.

I'd like to hear more people speak about this. I assumed this was the common and classic interpretation of eye of zomm.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I distinctly remember pulling in Hate using bind sight on an eye of zomm to target mobs in buildings to harmony them first. The eye did not pull aggro. I don't think I started doing planar raids until during Kunark though, so I can't give a timeframe.

[Ropethunder]

?? Holgresh elder beads came out in Velious from the flying monkey caves in wakening lands. That article is from 2001, which is before Luclin.

Zam said it was Luclin. I was mistaken.

However, using Zomm as a pulling tool is good for "other" classes diminishes its utility for magicians and wizards who by design can be extremely vulnerable in situations where there might be several mobs around a corner.

Despite how it might be useful for "pulling" I highly doubt this was its intended purpose. Especially considering the elder beads did not come out until Velious.

Some things don't make sense even in classic. I argue that this is one of them.

I understand that they may have been KOS in pure classic (I do not remember) but it's frustrating that it takes away from the classes who were intended to get the spell in the first place.

Places where Zomm is useful as non-aggro:

* Scouting
* Tapping for necros
* /assist for targeting, splitting

Places where Zomm is useful as aggro:

* Tapping for necros
* Pulling for melees only

Zomm becomes a tool for melees and removes the desire for groups wanting classes that can cast it in Classic and Velious for scouting and splitting.

The only reason it's even being considered for pulling is because of these elder beads. :(

For example, using it in Chardok was great because we could peek inside the castle to check for roaming adds for when we pulled one of the guys on top of the fort entrance. That's good utility and emphasizes the strong points provided by unique spells like this.

[Rais]

Going back on topic, eye of zomm isn't causing agro to KoS mobs.lol

Eye of Zomm always always KoS to Kos mobs. It changed after luclin if I recall.

[Ropethunder]

I have a question about the elder beads. According to Zam:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5552

The item is ALL/ALL. But the screenshot says it's caster only.

[Haynar]

Going back on topic, eye of zomm isn't causing agro to KoS mobs.lol

Eye of Zomm always always KoS to Kos mobs. It changed after luclin if I recall.

You are correct, it was not always aggro on all mobs. It was on some, like guards that would aggro on any mob kos that goes by. Patch put together to make the rest of the mobs hate eye's too.

Thanks,

H

[Ropethunder]

Despite being classic, this mechanic doesn't make sense. It's very clear that Rais wants this for his monk but it ruins eyes for the people who actually get to cast it.

Eyes now become only useful for tapping and for melee pulling. Melee pulling.. in Velious??

Zomm was most likely provided as a way to scout. Not as a pulling tool. :(

[Rais]

Haynar-Src-Eye of Zomm's will now aggro mobs, based on the caster's faction.

This is suppose to have the Eye of Zomm agro a KoS npc agro the eye , and then to myself, is this correct? Not just guards and such, but say stuff in lguk or even skyfire?

If so, Eye of Zomm isn't agroing npcs who are Kos to me.



This is how Eye of Zomm was made to be. It even was in the spell description when EQ came out. It was a casters way of scouting, but was only changed later due to Necro Life tapping, and pulling Phini to zone in. Then it was made non kos.

As for monks pulling with eye of zomm, yes I do want it. But camping Stone Spider in Solb for a lore item with 5 charges isn't going to break the mechanics of the game.

It's one hell of a tool for a wizard to use in groups.

[Ropethunder]

This is how Eye of Zomm was made to be.

How could Zomm, a spell designed to benefit casters, be "made to be" purely a monk/FD pulling tool which isn't even viable until Velious?

Changing Zomm to benefit only monks/FD classes is backwards. Please don't break my precious Zomm. :(

If it becomes KOS how can it possibly be of use to mages or wizards?

[Boomlaor]

Intended? I don't know what the original devs who made the spell intended, though I suspect they intended it to be useful for scouting. I DO, however, know how eye of zomm worked in classic, for my wizard. It had the same faction I did, and if mobs were KoS to me they would agro my eye and then me after killing it. It wasn't very useful for scouting in classic.

[Rais]

It took the casters faction in consideration. If it came across a agro npc, that was one of the risks. Yes, it was how eye of zomm was intended. It was a tool to be used by casters, with risk.

Yes it was intended this way. The only reason they changed it was Uber Encounters that could be trivialized by using the eye of zomm during Velious.

[nilbog]

How could Zomm, a spell designed to benefit casters, be "made to be" purely a monk/FD pulling tool which isn't even viable until Velious?

Changing Zomm to benefit only monks/FD classes is backwards. Please don't break my precious Zomm. :(

If it becomes KOS how can it possibly be of use to mages or wizards?

It's not to purely benefit melee. I used the eye on my mage on many occasions.

This is the reason they made Eye of Tallon eye cast invis on itself. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1720 So, if you were in a kos area where the npcs didn't see through invis, it wouldn't die.

As a mage or wizard, you guys get a spell for free that later people will pay 100k+ for Holgresh Elder Beads just to have the same.

As a mage, you can use it to pull. If you get a single, great, send your earth pet with a target. If you're a wizard, you can pull multiple npcs with it for AE without ever having to move. Some of these strategies are discussed on caster pages.

Most importantly, it wasn't changed until 2002. :x

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums//showthread.php?t=6049

[guineapig]

This is why the bind sight line of spells were always better as a pure scouting tool on live then Eye.

But yeah, there are all sorts of neat eye tricks that you can try now, that you couldn't do before.

[Odeseus]

Back to the original point, KoS NPCs are not attacking the eye, at least they weren't yesterday. I tried to pull seafuries with it and no luck. They completely ignored the eye. Figured it'd be easier using eye to pull so that I could med while looking for a fury.

[Ropethunder]

I would argue that allowing FD classes to pull safely from a distance is extremely imbalanced and is the reason the beads were removed and the eyes made non-aggro.

This is why Rais wants it.. as he said, to safely pull the Stone Spider in Solb, it trivializes pulling Phini, and I'm sure there are even more pulls that can now be done completely risk free.

Zomm-pull DT mobs?

[Haynar]

Zomm-pull DT mobs?
Let me know how this works for ya. If the zomm will eat the DT, we can surely fix it. I don't have time to test this, so if you could test it for me, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

H

[Ropethunder]

The only aggro-pullable DT mobs I know of are on keyed Sky islands.

[Odeseus]

Can't test it if it isn't working right the begin with. Tested it an hour ago or so with an ice giant. Had the eye sit right under the IG and.......no agro. Nothing at all. Ran eye around IG and still nothing.

Has anyone actually seen the eye agro anything?

[kanras]

Haynar's changes haven't been patched to the server yet.

[Odeseus]

TY Kan. Didn't know. Will keep an eye out for the next patch message!

[Koota]

From what I recall post Kunark, the Eye itself would take on the caster's faction and would be KOS if the caster was. However, the caster would not take aggro, simply the eye would be killed.

This was later changed at some point, although I can not remember when. As it stands in live, and even years prior, it doesn't generate any aggro what so ever.

Im leaving work, so ill look for reference links when I get home. But this shouldnt be aggroing the caster. Not the mage/wizard line in Kunark, anyway

[Pudge]

?? Holgresh elder beads came out in Velious from the flying monkey caves in wakening lands. That article is from 2001, which is before Luclin.

The eye of zomm is actually better the way it is now. It means you can pull with it, and people CAN'T send it on non-risk 30 second invite missions for coth in kos dungeons. I played a magician on live for a long time. I can tell you when TOV raid time came around, I was sending the eye to invite people for coth. In dungeon situations, a non-aggro eye completely trivializes some areas.

I'd like to hear more people speak about this. I assumed this was the common and classic interpretation of eye of zomm.

eye should not agro.. and the way it was on vztz, you needed to actually have line of sight (from your character) to invite someone to group. just having their target is not good enough, because ppl can use MQ to target ppl across the zone without ever seeing them.

dont know how you guys do it on p99 but wanted to give some input

[abzirian]

# Haynar-Src-Eye of Zomm's will now aggro mobs, based on the caster's faction.

Not true to form.

Even in classic, Eye of Zomm would never, ever aggro anything. It was used purely for scouting


__________________________________________________ __

# Haynar-Src-When using an Eye of Zomm, you will now have to click doors to open them. They will no longer open automatically.

This is correct.

[Loly Taa]

From what I recall post Kunark, the Eye itself would take on the caster's faction and would be KOS if the caster was. However, the caster would not take aggro, simply the eye would be killed.

This was later changed at some point, although I can not remember when. As it stands in live, and even years prior, it doesn't generate any aggro what so ever.

Im leaving work, so ill look for reference links when I get home. But this shouldnt be aggroing the caster. Not the mage/wizard line in Kunark, anyway

This is how I remember it too, because of this classes like Clerics with Holgresh Elder Beads could single pull things with the eye by just dragging mobs further and further summoning eyes one by one, the mob would run further and further to kill the eye each time. (But it would not chain aggro the caster of the eye)

[nilbog]

Guys.. you can say its incorrect all you want.

Start posting links supporting your opinion, because I sure can.

[Sephrana]

My memories of how the Eye worked are sketchy at best. I didn't have access to it until I got my singing steel helm after kunark was released. I do remember mobs killing it so I have to assume it was KOS.

I agree with the person who said bind sight is far more useful for scouting (is bind sight working on corpses yet? Guess I should log in and test that :P....because...you should be able to bind to a corpse - just bc it has dead eyes doesn't mean it doesn't have eyes to bind to! /derail)

I have used bind sight to successfully invite for cross zone COTH, to watch mobs path, scouting purposes, etc, etc.... BS was always far more useful than EOZ.

My opinion: There are undesired effects either way.

Non-Kos Eye of Zomm: too easy for cross zone COTH invites..... this can be achieved with bind sight anyway and I don't see why this is of particularly horrible consequence. it isn't an exploit and actually uses the spell in a useful, relatively non-detrimental way.

Kos EYE of Zomm: can pull using eye of zomm. could create situations as have already been mentioned - pulling stone spider to zone in (sol b), pulling phinny to zone in (kedge) (though that's sheer laziness. walk your ass back to the mob IMO)

How should it work? If you see a frog shaman's pet wandering around aren't you going to kill it? Very likely - yes. Because you know it's not a players pet or a "friendly" unless it's the pet of some faction that is not KOS for you (you aren't going to ruin faction in your hometown unless you are dumb :P )

So it makes sense that if a frog warrior in sebilis sees my eye of zomm wandering around he's gonna kill that eye then come looking for me before I go looking for him. It's self preservation.

I feel like it is inconsequential either way because this is a small thing....but we all know there are always going to be people who feel very passionately on both sides :)

I think the real question is - which way is more game breaking?

[Mateo]

I started EQ in early 2001 and Wizard was my main. I know for a fact that the Eye of Zomm took the caster's faction and when the eye was killed the mob agroed the caster. I used the eye to pull for groups when I was bored. This was changed later IIR, sometime in Luclin era I believe, and the eye was made non-agro.

My opinion is the spell is from Dungeons and Dragons and is a clairvoyance type of spell meant to summon an incorporeal/invisible eye to be used for scouting. However, I don't think the devs are trying to make this server how we want it to be, but to recreate EQ how it was. To me I prefer the eye to be non-kos and to be used for scouting. This makes the most sense to me and is open to less abuse, but that is not how the spell was to begin with, nor at this timeline in EQ.

[TheBlob]

So if it was made non-Kos in 2002, does that mean we are going to see the change or not?

[Lazortag]

I much rather prefer the eye being KOS and hope it stays that way, it makes Bards excellent pullers with their singing steel helm.

[stormlord]

Just have to say that I thought the eye was used for scouting? When it aggroed some sh** I was like WTF.

It may be classic for it to aggro, but god I hate it this way. I thought it would be cool to go to some zones that're higher than me and just sit back and watch others play without any danger to myself. Kind of like the man on the moon watches people at night. But my dream of doing this was shattered when it got aggro.

Be cool if there had been two eyes. One that aggroes and one that doesn't. I like to make those kinds of choices. Maybe they could have had certain limitations. Oh well, whatever.

[Danyelle]

I have a question about the elder beads. According to Zam:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5552

The item is ALL/ALL. But the screenshot says it's caster only.

The item (as I recall) used to be Mage, Necro, Wizard and Enchanter only. It was eventually reverted to all/all. The Alla page seems to support this. (The first screenshot that shows it caster only is a very obviously Velious era screenshot. Or at the least around that era. There is a third screenshot tacked onto the end using the new item windows from TSS+ that shows it ALL/ALL. Alla always uses the most recent information, being based on Live and all, so it would seem the ALL/ALL was a later change. The item stopped dropping long ago anyway, it is now only able to be won in the Shadow Haven Casino)

Note that this is only for who can WEAR the item. As I remember very vividly that the item could be put into a general inventory slot and clicked by any class just as the original LGuk DE mask could. Early posts on that page also support this.

As for the argument that Eye shouldn't aggro. Yeah I hate it too. Hell i hate that pets don't zone with you here either. For all that it ruined there were quite a few good changes modern EQ has made as well. But this is Classic after all... Gotta deal with what you're given I guess