What if you don't want to be an Evil Shaman?

[Rathiel72]

I see all these tips for the other 3 races but what about us homely Barbarians? Doesn't anyone have any tips or tricks for us?

[enjchanter]

Well the main benefit is you dont have to be fat and ugly as a barbarian

I dont have a shaman so I dont have much good advice but I'll tell you this

I made an erudite cleric and never had an issue if that's any consolation

[Shodo]

Barbarian Spiritist Hammer at 30 is a pretty fun benefit for barb shamans, and not too expensive. Procs the same nuke that jbb casts.

[loramin]

Super mega double bonus points for maintaining bearhat throughout entire career.

This.

Also, check out the wiki's Per-Level Hunting Guide (link in my signature). It has places for every race of Shaman (or any other soloing class) to hunt. You don't really need tips or tricks beyond that: just go explore and you'll figure everything out.

[DinoTriz]

I wish Iksars didn't look retarded and could wear plate.

I'm not into fatties either. You can't see mobs in front of you.

No thanks. No amount of frontal stun immunity or regen will make up for that.

[Teppler]

You’ll level faster but you’ll miss out on some cool benefits.

Trolls get Regen which really won’t kick into high gear until 50s. One thing that is highly underrated about them though is their options for clickies. Make sure you’re the right deity for snare necklace! That’s one item I wish I had.

Ogres get the stun immunity which won’t matter long term unless you intend to solo a lot after 60.

Race will make a difference to some degree. There is not some mob or camp that becomes available due to being a certain a race of shaman though.

[loramin]

Ogres get the stun immunity which won’t matter long term unless you intend to solo a lot after 60.

This except I solo a lot after 60 and I still don't miss FSI. Have I been stunned from the front? A few times I'm sure, but they were so inconsequential I don't even remember them. I've certainly never died because I got stunned, either while facing the mob or otherwise.

To me FSI really matters for the Shaman who want to take on the hard stuff, like the Solo Artist Challenge. Even for them it's not a huge lifesaver ... but when you're dealing with mobs that can kill you even when you do everything right, even a small lifesaver matters.

[Troxx]

FSI is hugely overrated by the p99 folk.

[Foxplay]

YoloTorporLoL Don'tCare

Yup pretty much describes ogre torpor shaman gameplay perfectly

[Jimjam]

Racial regen and FSI won't save you every time. Barbarian will be higher level than an equivalently XPed other shaman, which is a bigger boost than any other racial. Barbie will be 60 (539,119,876 xp) while the iksar/ troll are barely out of 58 (538,509,120). They will also recover xp debt from death better than others.

If you decide to sell sacrifices restoring the lost do will be faster on the barbarian too. Many a shaman has sold his soul for torpor/epic!

But that is just a footnote. It is all about them polar bears!

[Triiz]

The "most accomplished" solo artist challenge Shaman was a Barbarian.

[Baler]

at 60 with torp and all other spells, in raid gear. Barb shm is just as good. You just don't have racial regen or frontal stupid immunity.

[loramin]

The "most accomplished" solo artist challenge Shaman was a Barbarian.

Right, well I didn't mean FSI was necessary for solo artists, I just meant they would have the most chance of noticing/caring about it. But I'm glad to hear that FSI is not necessary even to solo the absolute highest level mobs.

[clevergirl]

Barbarians have one of the best leveling spots in game, and as a shaman they can power up insanely quickly through blackburrow, and the Karanas, then back into Everfrost and Perma, all the while not laying a finger on anything questworthy.

[fortior]

Plus you can actually vendor your shit without jumping through hoops. Play exclusively Iksar for a while and switching to a goodly race will be like relaxing in a warm bath

go for it OP

[Rathiel72]

Barbarians have one of the best leveling spots in game, and as a shaman they can power up insanely quickly through blackburrow, and the Karanas, then back into Everfrost and Perma, all the while not laying a finger on anything questworthy.
I'm really new to the game so I guess I will have to figure out where those places are but thanks for your replies.

[derpcake2]

at 60 with torp and all other spells, in raid gear. Barb shm is just as good. You just don't have racial regen or frontal stupid immunity.

its not "just as good" when they miss out on benefits they cannot compensate for

when soloing WW dragons and the likes, FSI is a huge benefit, torpor has a long cast time and getting stunned in the last half second of casting it is very bad for resources

troll regen is very strong since good shamans are never at full mana, though it doesn't have the situational awesomeness FSI has

slam is a great ability, it might not always stop a gater, but when it does it probably saved your ass straight up

gearing a character is all about stacking things that don't matter a lot, a newbie char in cloth is a lot stronger then a naked one, even though the indivual pieces do very little

[loramin]

gearing a character is all about stacking things that don't matter a lot, a newbie char in cloth is a lot stronger then a naked one, even though the indivual pieces do very little

Not to be contrary, but is that actually true? My subjective sense is that a suit of cloth doesn't make a big difference over being naked.

Has anyone ever parsed this?

[fortior]

Doesn't a stunning hit still interrupt spellcasting even with FSI?

[Snaggles]

Go with what you like the look of the most. Class & Level > everything else. It just so happens if you like the look of the Barbarian you also get an exp advantage over the other races.

Doesn't a stunning hit still interrupt spellcasting even with FSI?

If the spell is interrupted by push-back, yes. Ogres are the only race that can't be bashed/slammed from the front and interrupted. They can effectively find a corner and keep casting.

[Phenyo]

Fashion > fsi

[clevergirl]

Not to be contrary, but is that actually true? My subjective sense is that a suit of cloth doesn't make a big difference over being naked.

Has anyone ever parsed this?

I don't think so. It feels right though. The difference gets smaller and smaller the higher level you get I think.

I think a cloth caster at lvl 60 it pretty much almost doesn't matter what you wear, mobs above level 40 will hurt badly.

But at lvl 1 it makes a big enough difference to be nice.

By lvl 60, either you can manage to kite without mana, or you have a ton of +int gear and it just helps with a big buffer and pace.

I think for warriors stuff like AC matters more, so they will still notice at lvl 60 a difference of say, 100ac, from buffs, and yeah, that's been pretty much parsed I think.

Gear is important to shamans, but barbarian shamans start with a pretty high wisdom. And that stat matters the most! <3

[loramin]

Loramin should really take the time to put together an official good guy shaman guide.

Someday I might write an actual guide, but for now the next best thing is to go to http://wiki.project1999.com/Per-Level_Hunting_Guide and click the "Shaman" filter at the top.

It's not quite a guide because it gives you options instead of saying "go here at level X, then go here at level Y", and also the Shaman-recommended places don't start until level 20. But if you're a Barbarian Shaman I guarantee you can find a leveling path there because I wrote the guide as I was leveling Loramin, so it contains all the places I used.

Gear is important to shamans, but barbarian shamans start with a pretty high wisdom. And that stat matters the most! <3

Actually, the conventional wisdom is that Stamina > Wisdom. Wisdom only gives a Shaman mana, but Stamina gives a Shaman HP, which keeps them alive and can be converted to mana using Cannibalize.

But Wisdom is certainly handy too (and better than Stamina for tradeskills, if you're into that sort of thing): Barbarian pride!

[Jimjam]

You do know shaman can convert mana into hp (and other effects!) too, Lora? ;)

[loramin]

You do know shaman can convert mana into hp (and other effects!) too, Lora? ;)

Indeed, that's very true ... when you have time and things are going smoothly. But here's the thing: higher stats don't matter the 95-99% of the time that things are going smoothly. The only time higher max stats do matter is when the shit hits the fan, and when it does a little extra HP can mean being able to run for your life. A little extra mana with no HP just means you die.

The Wiki debunks this.

It's actually Wisdom > Stamina.

The wiki does no such thing. What the wiki actually says is:

For pure Mana consideration, a higher WIS *dramatically* beats out over a higher STA

(Emphasis mine.) And that's true: for pure max mana Wisdom is clearly better.

But again, it's not about how the numbers crunch under ideal situations. Under ideal situations a Shaman with 150 Wisdom or Stamina is functionally identical to a Shaman with 250 Wisdom or Stamina. The only time higher max stats matter in EQ is when they give you a buffer, like when you accidentally pull two mobs instead of one and the extra HP from higher Stamina gives you a buffer that lets you survive.

You can max stamina via buffs. No meaningful wisdom buffs exist

No meaningful wisdom buffs? Enlightenment gives 22, and Form of the Great Bear gives another 10. Now of course Riotous Health gives 50 Stamina, but still 32 Wisdom is far from meaningless.

Personally self-buffed I have 225 Wisdom and 223 Stamina. I've played here for four years and I've raided (though not at the A/A level). You can see my gear in my Magelo (link in signature): it's not terrible, but it's certianly not maxxed either.

If you're in Aftermath or Tempest or whatever and/or if you're getting raid buffed then sure, maxing Stamina (and probably Wisdom too) isn't that hard. But non-top-tier raiders won't be hitting their maxes when soloing/grouping for a long time ... if ever.

[kruptcy]

The only time higher max stats matter in EQ is when they give you a buffer, like when you accidentally pull two mobs instead of one and the extra HP from higher Stamina gives you a buffer that lets you survive.

I love this comment as max hp and max mana are such misunderstood stats from a functional standpoint.

[Lojik]

Sometimes that little bit of extra mana can save you just like that little bit of hp could save you. With so many ways to convert hp to mana and vice versa, I think the main considerations are returns from+stats and which is harder to max. You get way more mana per wis than you get hp per sta and get sta buffs like others have said.

Also the cazic clickie neck gets seriously overlooked. Lots of fun to have leveling up, and with the Warrens out its a relatively easy faction grind and easy quest to boot.

[Jimjam]

Agreed some times you need that mana for a root or a gate and you don't have time to canni and then cast another spell.

I think this changes once the shaman can torpor. Once my live shaman could hot he basically gave up on dieing. I haven't actually made it to 60 on a p99 shaman but I guess it is largely the same (wandering Krups excepted, of course).

[Rathiel72]

Look who figured out how to create a signature lol

[kruptcy]

I don't understand the thinking that higher stats mean nothing. With higher Stam/Wis I can take on mobs that are higher level, hit harder, I can cast more nukes/dots allowing me to kill faster.

Assuming we're all fighting blue mobs that we have no problem with then I would agree. While leveling I do not always go that route, sure once you're 50+ it makes sense but you should clarify that instead of stating it is always the case that higher stats don't mean anything unless you pull two mobs.

An extra 100 hp is completely meaningless unless you dip below 100 hp during a fight. Similarly an extra 100 mana is meaningless unless you dip below 100 mana during a fight. These marginal increases to a large pool are pretty insignificant.

The question is really which of these largely insignificant is more likely to save your life? I am not very good at this game so I know the answer for me would be hp.

[kruptcy]

Hey I'm not arguing with you :)

[loramin]

That comes from a page on the wiki specifically about the WIS vs STA debate.

The end result is in big red font that WIS is dramatically better than STA.

So again, the wiki debunks your theory.

Look Dino I like your posts in general, but I feel like the big red letters on that page are getting in the way of your basic reading comprehension here. Try to look past them and understand that the wiki "debunks" nothing about what I've said.

Wisdom = more mana than Stamina. Everyone agrees on this, including both myself and the author of that wiki page. And it's good to have both more Stamina and more Wisdom if you can. Again, everyone agrees with this: I don't think anyone is saying to max your Stamina and leave your Wisdom at 120, or vice versa.

But when you are deciding whether to get a little more Stamina or a little more Wisdom (either at creation or when choosing items), "more mana" is not the only thing that decides whether a stat is better or not. All that wiki page says is that Wisdom gives more mana than Stamina; it says nothing about whether mana is better than HP, ie. whether being able to cast one more spell is worth a greater chance of not being alive to cast that spell.

To actually decide which stat is better you have to decide (as the wiser people in this thread have noted) which do you want just a little bit more of when things go wrong? Not which stat is better in an abstract sense, not which one gives you the bigger number to brag about, but which stat is it better to have a little bit more of in situations when you have more mobs than you expect, or accidentally agro a mob after you've just finished a fight, or something like that.

Even then it's subjective: no one can prove that HP or Mana is categorically better than the other because they are both useful. But personally I'd rather be alive and able to drink a healing potion, or click a WC cap, or run a away a bit so I can cannibalize for some mana, or drop down off an edge so the mobs take a moment to run to me (so I can med or cann and then gate out), or run to the zone line, etc., than have the mana for an extra root but be dead and not be able to do any of those things.

If someone thinks they already have enough HP to stay alive in bad situations, and focuses on mana instead, I certainly can't prove them wrong, because I can't predict exactly how many HP you'll need to stay alive in every possible shitty situation. But on average I think having a bit more HP in a crunch is better than having a bit more mana, and for what it's worth the vast, vast majority of Shaman in the classic era agreed*.


* Although as we all know, people in classic weren't always right about things, so take that with the necessary grains of salt.

[loramin]

Drop it.

You're wrong.

That's a good, rational argument, which totally supports your opinion with solid evidence.

Glad we had this talk.

[loramin]

You have access to all my evidence that proves me correct.

You just choose to plug your ears and not listen.

You can dream up all the mental gymnastics you want, but you are still wrong.

Get over it.

Ok first off, calm down: this is a discussion about micro-optimizing stats on a 19-year old elf simulator: I'm not plugging my ears or doing mental gymnastics, I'm stating an opinion and backing it up. That's generally how discussions work: one person states an opinion with evidence, another states a contrary opinion with counter-evidence, the first admits the other's evidence is convincing, or else they present their own counter-evidence, and so on. Clearly our evidence hasn't convinced each other yet.

Second, I'm happy to stop here; this isn't a Lincoln-Douglass debate, it's a discussion on which item someone might want to buy next, and I certainly think I've explained my take sufficiently. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because saying "BUT MY OPINION IS IN BIG RED TEXT ON A FAN-EDITED WIKI" isn't going to be the evidence that convinces me.

[loramin]

Ok, I know I said I'd stop, but I just had one more thought that actually supports your view.

For soloing Shaman I maintain that Stamina > Wisdom, but for Shaman who primarily group I think it might be the other way around. In a group surviving when your group dies doesn't help, so mana > HP in that sense, plus you usually have a healer, making HP even less important. Plus, at higher levels when you die even death is less of a big deal, as your Rogue can drag your corpse and your Cleric can rez you.

So it still depends heavily on unpredictable circumstances, but the more I think about it the more I think the circumstances of groups might favor Wisdom. But when soloing not dying > all.

[Gumbo]

Downfall of playing a Barbarian Shaman is having to run all the way back to Halas for spells at times...

Downfalls of playing a Shaman is spending 100K for Torpor and another 75-90K for a Tear for your epic.

[MagpieRockyl]

Why is Dino mad?

[icedwards]

Why is Dino mad?

Economic anxiety

[Gumbo]

I've been thinking about this and I think my plan is to just load up on spells and fill my bank with them. Not a huge deal but also another call to adventure in EQ so a trip to Halas isn't that bad even so.

This is good if you plan on playing your character as a Twink and supplying him/her with unlimited money to buy all these spells.

[Phenyo]

I've been thinking about this and I think my plan is to just load up on spells and fill my bank with them. Not a huge deal but also another call to adventure in EQ so a trip to Halas isn't that bad even so.

I made the trip twice throughout leveling and used this method of banking/inventory for all spells. The run is classic as heck tbh. Be sure to stop off at the barb village to pick up pet spells!

This is good if you plan on playing your character as a Twink and supplying him/her with unlimited money to buy all these spells.

It's only a few hundred plat for 1-49. Even an ALS style shaman could make enough via gargoyle eyes in oot or something.

[Wilhelm]

Wisdom till 200 then stamina.

[clevergirl]

Thank you guys for coming to my defense against the Loramin's allegation that I don't know what I'm talking about because "girl" is in my avatars name.

Wisdom is very important. It should be everyone's primary stat :D

Stamina is also nice too, obviously! ;)

[clevergirl]

Anyway, if Stamina was the most important stat, everyone would want a troll with max STA for their sham, which is obviously not the best choice. Because HP regen > 20 points of STA when root rotting and canni-i-ing. (which is not the only way to play a sham, obviously) :D

[clevergirl]

I'd play a Troll Shaman but they look like they have a full diaper.

I can't take myself seriously if I have a dirty diaper

Bearform! Win.

[loramin]

Thank you guys for coming to my defense against the Loramin's allegation that I don't know what I'm talking about because "girl" is in my avatars name.

WTF? "Stamina > Wisdom" has been the standard since 2001, way back when I read The Shaman's Crucible as religiously as I now read this forum. All I did was repeat it, which I would do to any shaman of any gender: there was absolutely no "mansplaining" or anything else to do with your chromosomes involved!

I think someone has a persecution complex ...

Also:

Because HP regen > 20 points of STA when root rotting and canni-i-ing. (which is not the only way to play a sham, obviously) :D

IMHO even just 1 point of regen > 20 points of stamina. As I keep repeating, maximums don't do anything except save your bacon when things go south (and if you play well you'll either avoid those situations or get out of them without needing the extra buffer of higher maximums). Regen on the other hand reduces downtime, at least when soloing: that translates into faster leveling.

I tend to think it helps more than higher maximums in groups too, as even 1 HP regen eventually leads to another spell you can cast to help your group.

[clevergirl]

I wind up sitting around AFK a lot anyway. So even that is not a big deal in the end. I agree with both perspectives. I think it comes down to what you prefer for your playstyle.

I prefer to just have more mana most of the time, that way, if I never fill up on mana, I'm always netting a gain as much as possible. But, that almost never, ever happens anyway. So... given 500mana or 500hp... I think definitely, in group scenarios (which is my playstyle) 500 mana buffer wins. It makes that big splitting pull not a big deal sometimes, it's a few extra roots, or a re-slow on that final mob. And I think that's what EQ is about. Getting a rythm and a bit of strategy.

Of course +80hp rings before level 20 are like, amazing tho :D

[Teppler]

During fights I run AC gear & my fungi.

If I have time to med before a challenging fight, I use specific gear that will push my wisdom above 200 and maximize my +mana.

[Rathiel72]

I'd play a Troll Shaman but they look like they have a full diaper.

I can't take myself seriously if I have a dirty diaper
ROFLMAO!

[Teppler]

You know there is a perk to having a very high HP pool and that it's you get the most out of your Torpors.

When you have a significantly lower HP pool then torpor often hits you at 100%.

With a higher pool you can get lower hp, more safely, and get more efficiency out of your torpors.

[fortior]

I think that when you're a level 60 shaman with Torpor you shouldn't care about this 'issue'

[Teppler]

I think that when you're a level 60 shaman with Torpor you shouldn't care about this 'issue'

You can stop at a lot of places with Shaman and call it a day. Frankly, you don't even need torpor to be one of the most powerful classes, solo or group.

[fortior]

Iksar best. Bad faction can be a hindrance, but on the other hand, if everyone already hates you you can grind on guards/treants/etc without messing anything up

[fortior]

Not to hijack, but I managed to claw my way up to level 35.4 as an Iksar shaman, but the grind is getting to me. Is the best (or least sanity-wrecking) soloing method just killing hags in Unrest or ganking SK gnolls/delivering their scrolls? For grouping I do KC wall/SolA which works nicely.

[Tethler]

Not to hijack, but I managed to claw my way up to level 35.4 as an Iksar shaman, but the grind is getting to me. Is the best (or least sanity-wrecking) soloing method just killing hags in Unrest or ganking SK gnolls/delivering their scrolls? For grouping I do KC wall/SolA which works nicely.

Find a melee and duo the gnomes in SolA. Maybe soloable, but I seem to remember them having really high MR. Not 100% sure on that. Either way, fantastic xp into the 40s as long as you don't mind decimating your gnome faction, which as an Iksar, I'd imagine is already kos.

[fortior]

Hmm, I do hate gnomes. I was there a day or two ago with a twinked SK, it was nice.

[loramin]

Not to hijack, but I managed to claw my way up to level 35.4 as an Iksar shaman, but the grind is getting to me. Is the best (or least sanity-wrecking) soloing method just killing hags in Unrest or ganking SK gnolls/delivering their scrolls? For grouping I do KC wall/SolA which works nicely.

Personally I did a lot of SK gnolls (and centaurs, aviaks, elephants, lions ... I <3 South Karana). But if you don't like it and SolA doesn't work out (or you can't find a duo partner) check out the Per-Level Hunting Guide; there's a link in my signature.

It's basically just a page with over a hundred different ideas for places to solo/duo/trio, and the vast majority of them are Shaman-doable.

[Rathiel72]

Not to hijack, but I managed to claw my way up to level 35.4 as an Iksar shaman, but the grind is getting to me. Is the best (or least sanity-wrecking) soloing method just killing hags in Unrest or ganking SK gnolls/delivering their scrolls? For grouping I do KC wall/SolA which works nicely.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Sesserdrix%27s_All_in_One_Necromancer_Strategy_Gui de

[Rathiel72]

I tend to agree, although they can't use a JBB and Iksar armor graphics look like poo
I can't always follow the crowd on so and so is best for that class. Whatever game I'm playing (style of game) I have a vision in my mind of each class and if there isn't a race that matches up well or I just can't stand then I don't play them. The roleplay in my mind has to sit right. If I play a nature based hunter type then I am playing some type of Elf, a gun toting hunter would be a dwarf, I just have to be able to visualize my Character and in this instance no matter how hard I tried I couldn't see myself playing a Shaman as any of the evil races, but Barb worked because of my extensive reading and my personal thought processes on it. I have nothing against Iskar as I have a Necro one (because it made since in my mind not because everyone said to) because Necromancer SCREAMS Evil. So you see my dilemma. If it doesn't work in my mind I have to do something else or not do it at all. LOL Welcome to my twisted mind.

[fortior]

Personally I did a lot of SK gnolls (and centaurs, aviaks, elephants, lions ... I <3 South Karana). But if you don't like it and SolA doesn't work out (or you can't find a duo partner) check out the Per-Level Hunting Guide; there's a link in my signature.

It's basically just a page with over a hundred different ideas for places to solo/duo/trio, and the vast majority of them are Shaman-doable.

Yeah, I have that page bookmarked, but I ended up going with the Evil Shaman Solo Guide's suggestion of camping the guards over at the NK/SK zoneline. Mostly since gnolls were camped by level 40s (???) so I just got a bunch of xp over there. Pretty quick and easy!

[loramin]

Yeah, I have that page bookmarked, but I ended up going with the Evil Shaman Solo Guide's suggestion of camping the guards over at the NK/SK zoneline. Mostly since gnolls were camped by level 40s (???) so I just got a bunch of xp over there. Pretty quick and easy!

Good to know. I thought I added all of the places in that guide years ago, but I guess I missed some.


/em adds thread to the overflowing folder of bookmarked threads that have something I need to add to the guide ...