ZEM Listings

[Fingurs]

It seems that they are no longer up to date (in wiki). Has anyone else by any chance started one themselves? Needs help contributing to one?

Just got back after a year off and wanted to figure out what is what. Last year the ZEM modifier led me to zones I would've skipped entirely and made the experience even more memorable.

Thanks in advance if anyone knows or can help.

[loramin]

No; that's the short, unfortunate answer. Here's the problem: only two groups of people know the ZEMs. One group is the devs, and (keeping to the classic spirit) they refuse to release them.

The other group are players who are certifiably insane, because you'd have to be to figure out a ZEM without hacking P99 or being a dev. To do so you'd have to have character A solo (at least) one level, while staying entirely in a single zone, and always killing mobs of the exact same level. Then you'd have to have an identical character B do the same thing, with the same exact level of mobs, in another zone. Both would have to keep track of exactly how many of those "exactly the same level" mobs each one killed.

Once you did that you could divide one mob kill count by the other to determine the relative ZEM of those two zones to each other, but that still wouldn't give you either zone's ZEM. To get that you'd have to repeat the experiment across enough zones that you could be certain a subset of those zones were baseline zones (ie. ZEM 75 / 100% XP). Only once you had that could you finally start determining a zone's ZEM by comparing it's relative ZEM to the baseline zones.

... but of course almost no one has the patience to kill only mobs of a certain level in a single zone for even a single level, let alone to do the same thing for many different pairs of characters (for many levels worth of leveling) across many zones, especially at higher levels. Even just doing one relatively low-level character for one level is super difficult because most mobs have level ranges, and when you're leveling you don't want to fight white cons (ie. the only mobs whose level you can be certain of). To kill blue mobs of the same level consistently you'd need another slightly lower character sitting next to you conning everything.

On the positive side, I did file this bug (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288909&highlight=loramin), and hypothetically IF (big if) it ever gets resolved we might at least get some clues.

P.S. In case anyone is thinking "what if I used ShowEQ?", even a cheater who could see the exact XP awarded for each mob could only speed things up so much: they'd still have to do the same process, they just wouldn't need a full level worth of killing. But even that increase wouldn't make things all that much faster, and your progress would slow down a ton the moment you got banned.

[7thGate]

It wouldn't be quite as complicated as that. I did some testing with relative XP for gnoll fangs in Halas vs. Qeynos by taking screenshots and counting the number of pixels of blue on the XP bar before and after turnins (turns out its the same on a per-fang basis, as long as you are high enough level to avoid hitting the per-turnin cap in Halas). You could do a few kills, then use the XP movement to project with reasonable accuracy the amount you would need to level. Assuming the XP formulas to level listed in the wiki are accurate, you don't even need to compare to anywhere else to solve for the ZEM.

[loramin]

It wouldn't be quite as complicated as that. I did some testing with relative XP for gnoll fangs in Halas vs. Qeynos by taking screenshots and counting the number of pixels of blue on the XP bar before and after turnins (turns out its the same on a per-fang basis, as long as you are high enough level to avoid hitting the per-turnin cap in Halas). You could do a few kills, then use the XP movement to project with reasonable accuracy the amount you would need to level. Assuming the XP formulas to level listed in the wiki are accurate, you don't even need to compare to anywhere else to solve for the ZEM.

That's basically the ShowEQ way, just with less specificity (I don't know how many decimal places of XP ShowEQ shows, but it's probably more specific than the pixel count). You can figure out "this zone is better than that zone" fairly quickly that way, but to get the actual percentage you need some decent numbers (eg. killing 10 in one zone and 11 in another could mean a relative ZEM of 90% ... or it could mean one of 85.6% or 94.4%; you'd have to kill more to find out). And again, quests make it seem easy: the hard part is just killing mobs of the exact same level long enough in two different zones.

Even if you assume (based on the wiki) that certain zones are baseline, you still have to kill X mobs of Y level in both a baseline zone and another zone (where X is however many it takes to determine the percentage; too lazy to do the math so that's why I said "a level or more", but in retrospect X is probably smaller than that).

Let's say you want to figure out the ZEM of Kedge (a popular ZEM question zone). You and a slightly lower character both need to go there, then the lower level character needs to find an even con mob, then you need to kill it without killing any other mob. That's like ten minutes right there IF you can pacify the mobs around your mob; if not you might need a third friend to kill the off-level mobs. Then you need to repeat that X times, then you'd need to do the same in a zone you assume to be ZEM 75 ... which also has mobs the same level as your friend.

[loramin]

does p99 obscure this? it was easily detectable in-era

not classic!

I thought in-era people used ShowEQ (which was used, but also banned classically)? If not I don't see how they could do it without some variant of what I just described (which admittedly with 7thGate's pixel idea wouldn't be quite as bad.)

[kgallowaypa]

The other group are players who are certifiably insane, because you'd have to be to figure out a ZEM without hacking P99 or being a dev. To do so you'd have to have character A solo (at least) one level, while staying entirely in a single zone, and always killing mobs of the exact same level. Then you'd have to have an identical character B do the same thing, with the same exact level of mobs, in another zone. Both would have to keep track of exactly how many of those "exactly the same level" mobs each one killed.

If someone actually did that...just thinking about the perspective, it would be like prasing rogaen as a god and anything he touches...almost unhealthy to a person who does such things when a dev can just 'leak' the ZEM.

[skarlorn]

ZEMs lead to terrible player behavior like thinking your only xp routes are thru HHK goblins and Mistmoore

I recently came across the usual scene in HHK. One party killing all of basement and a bunch of people sitting there, waiting on a list. There was a cleric, enchanter, and tank. How fucking dumb do you have to be to wait for an hour or two, getting 0 xp, for a spot in a good group instead of forming up with the people around you and go xp elsewhere? I ended up taking those scrubs into sol a and we had a neverending stream of goblin scum to kill. But if Sol A had been full, i assure you i could have found another xp spot and gotten there within 10 mins

forget about ZEMs you'll see a lot more of the game

[loramin]

Figuring out a rough ZEM isn't too hard. Maximum xp gained is 10% per kill. However this 10% is modified by ZEM if the ZEM is higher/lower than the base. So you need two insane people one on a lvl 1 and another on a fd class.

Clever approach, way to apply your understanding of EQ mechanics! I still think it's more work than most people would be willing to do, but at least all these suggestions are getting us out of the "certifiably insane" level of effort and into just the "pain in the butt" level.

[Jetlag]

Caiu is a despicable player. He's also wrong. Last time I checked, it's 11% cap, regardless of ZEM. It's been that way since the 2013 patch that nerfed power leveling.

Also, I participated in Loramin's insane approach and applied it to popular zones: Nagafen's Lair, Kedge, HHK, SK, Guk, and a few others. It works best with 3 or 4 people to ensure consistent data. Hence, I can't share the specifics without their permission.

I can say, the spread was much lower between traditional baseline zones vs places like Kedge (especially since the ZEM nerf). One thing is certain, HHK is game-breakingly massive.

[Lobus]

I'm down to help with the lvl 1 since I don't have a high enough level FD class. At a certain mob level I would wonder how the lvl 1 would do enough dmg to get the xp. I'm guessing a class that could use a clicky nuke would have the best chance? Snare/root the fleeing mob and just click click click till you get lucky enough to land the killing blow?

[Fingurs]

ZEMs lead to terrible player behavior like thinking your only xp routes are thru HHK goblins and Mistmoore

I recently came across the usual scene in HHK. One party killing all of basement and a bunch of people sitting there, waiting on a list. There was a cleric, enchanter, and tank. How fucking dumb do you have to be to wait for an hour or two, getting 0 xp, for a spot in a good group instead of forming up with the people around you and go xp elsewhere? I ended up taking those scrubs into sol a and we had a neverending stream of goblin scum to kill. But if Sol A had been full, i assure you i could have found another xp spot and gotten there within 10 mins

forget about ZEMs you'll see a lot more of the game



I agree with you that the waiting list thing is terrible. However, the reason why this is (which was later fixed) is not because of the modifier, but more effectiveness. Velious mobs (as you know) have a LOT more HPs.

If this was ever balanced across, then you would see far more diversity.

Last year, Kedge had a massive ZEM modifier. My group and I had the zone to ourselves for 3 1/2 weeks. No one regularly dared to enter, despite the modifier. So I would say that ZEM modifiers for less traveled zone is a GREAT motivator.

I did the same with Kaesora. Beautiful zone, almost always empty.

[SDWV]

What's the Qeynos Aqueduct ZEM?

[Arkanjil]

I really enjoy trying out obscure zones on my alts. Playing in the Warren’s, gorge of king xorbb, runneye, permafrost, rathe mountains, etc has been a blast. I don’t really care about the ZEM.

I’m actually really wanting to try and level an iksar monk or SK all the way to 60 without ever leaving Kunark.

[Issar]

I’m actually really wanting to try and level an iksar monk or SK all the way to 60 without ever leaving Kunark.

I've seen much of the rest of the world. It is brutal and cruel and dark, Kunark is the light.

[katrik]

I've seen much of the rest of the world. It is brutal and cruel and dark, Kunark is the light.

Unexpected Gladiator.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Don't listen to skarlorn, he just wants all that juicy ZEM experience for himself

[Foxplay]

Try not to worry too much about ZEM. Just kill more merbs make sure they are blue... If ya don't like the exp after a few hours then try a different spot / zone

[bhs13501]

wish more ppl did better about forming groups and crawling through some of the empty beautiful obscure zones. its just down syndrome afk hellen keller-esc pickup group slogfest atm

alot of fun and variety to be had. wish the "zem" or whatever the fuck else would rotate or there was some other influence or initiative to move around norrath.

you only get to level up on your toon once, so choosing the path and the company is sacred and very important. frown when ppl recommend the typical leveling path, and i hate that its a thing

[Foxplay]

you only get to level up on your toon once, so choosing the path and the company is sacred and very important. frown when ppl recommend the typical leveling path, and i hate that its a thing

Contact a necromancer they can help you level up the same toon multiple times and make a profit doing so ;)

[bhs13501]

Contact a necromancer they can help you level up the same toon multiple times and make a profit doing so ;)

i hear ya, but ide much rather roll another class I havent experienced yet. maybe kill two stones with bard for pl/sacs!

[Bboboo]

I go by my own ZEM which is most amount of mobs killed as efficiently/quickly as possible.

If the zone had a high exp mod then that's just icing on the cake. Also only duo.

[Foxplay]

I go by my own ZEM which is most amount of mobs killed as efficiently/quickly as possible.

If the zone had a high exp mod then that's just icing on the cake. Also only duo.

This all the way is the key to grinding out the levels. Except don't hard limit yourself to only duo - time spent not killing waiting for a partner isn't getting you exp, and some partners can't carry their weight depending on class combination

Alot of people want to focus on ZEM but fail to realize there is other factors to consider

1) what is the respawn and how many mobs are available?

High ZEM don't mean anything if there is just a few mobs to kill and it's a 30min respawn. Places with high density and short respawn can net more exp for high kill rate charm classes or any duos that work efficient

2) How popular is the area?

Again if the place is crowded with people constantly camped or tripping over each other ZEM Don't matter, could get more exp somewhere that has more camps or spawns without fighting other players for spawns

3) What is it worth?

Something not all players need to consider exping if your only goal is exp. But it might be worth considering, perhaps take a camp or zone with a bit less exp if it has some named or drops that can make you plat while you level.

4) Safety and Accessibility.

Last to think about but can definitely be important. How hard is it to get to the area? Is it 1 zone away from a port or 5. Is it keyed? How bad is a CR? How hard would it be to get a cleric to come rez you if you die? Are you ok with eating a death or paying a cleric for their time?

This can definitely affect exp. If you screw up alot or are getting in over your head and dieing alot then even the best ZEM won't save you

[Bboboo]

Usually why I don't play on double exp weekends.

Not classic
Don't want to deal with the immersion
Not really double exp if every mob is killed within seconds of spawning

[Oleris]

They need to bump KC up 30% :D:D:D:D:D

[Pope Hat]

I really enjoy trying out obscure zones on my alts. Playing in the Warren’s, gorge of king xorbb, runneye, permafrost, rathe mountains, etc has been a blast. I don’t really care about the ZEM.

I’m actually really wanting to try and level an iksar monk or SK all the way to 60 without ever leaving Kunark.

I'm doing this now on an Iksar necro in ALS. Only level 16 but a lot of fun so far. I never let the ZEM dictate where I am going to go, but that Kurns exp is mighty tasty =D

[Fingurs]

I really enjoy trying out obscure zones on my alts. Playing in the Warren’s, gorge of king xorbb, runneye, permafrost, rathe mountains, etc has been a blast. I don’t really care about the ZEM.

I’m actually really wanting to try and level an iksar monk or SK all the way to 60 without ever leaving Kunark.

Without leaving Kunark? Isn't that literally the best way? lol.

[Fingurs]

Try not to worry too much about ZEM. Just kill more merbs make sure they are blue... If ya don't like the exp after a few hours then try a different spot / zone

Unfortunately the entire point of my thread is because I like knowing ZEMs. I like min-maxing. Its the way I enjoy gaming.

[Quinas]

Unfortunately the entire point of my thread is because I like knowing ZEMs. I like min-maxing. Its the way I enjoy gaming.

Welcome to the Forums, where a derail is just a Submit Reply button away.

[Valrok]

I thought in-era people used ShowEQ (which was used, but also banned classically)? If not I don't see how they could do it without some variant of what I just described (which admittedly with 7thGate's pixel idea wouldn't be quite as bad.)

ShowEQ was not banned as it wasn't able to be banned if used correctly. Packet sniffing across a network is not something an EQ client would have access to nor would the staff back then.

Now, if you are using the new stuff...well that is another story, I am pretty sure all that nonsense injects and is clearly detectable.

[fastboy21]

ShowEQ was not banned as it wasn't able to be banned if used correctly. Packet sniffing across a network is not something an EQ client would have access to nor would the staff back then.

Now, if you are using the new stuff...well that is another story, I am pretty sure all that nonsense injects and is clearly detectable.

In theory (it may be illegal and/or unethical) they can most certainly detect if you are running ShowEQ.

They can certainly test you in-game (live in era or now) by watching how you play. Most folks who get caught using the program are caught because of unusual behavior as they impossibly track mobs and magically run across entire zones in a bee line for a random spawn they couldn't have known was there, etc.

Sometimes folks just stupidly talk using it by bragging in chat channels.

Using ShowEQ was against the rules and could result in disciplinary actions.

[Valrok]

In theory (it may be illegal and/or unethical) they can most certainly detect if you are running ShowEQ.

They can certainly test you in-game (live in era or now) by watching how you play. Most folks who get caught using the program are caught because of unusual behavior as they impossibly track mobs and magically run across entire zones in a bee line for a random spawn they couldn't have known was there, etc.

Sometimes folks just stupidly talk using it by bragging in chat channels.

Using ShowEQ was against the rules and could result in disciplinary actions.

Yep, didn't think of that

[Tuurin]

Actually I don't think the "cookie-cutter" is related to ZEM specifically. I think it's literally just the easiest path. MM-COM-KC are all outdoor dungeons (harmony/sow) that are easy to get to (ports close) and easy to navigate. No oddball keys, entrance/exit issues, not a lot of PoS casters/dispellers in any of them, etc.

I think that if suddenly Droga had a 20% exp bonus over COM, there still wouldn't be a whole lot of PUG action there since it's a PitA to get to, once you're past the entrance you basically have to port or gate out, no SoW, no Harmony pulling, TONS of sk's and caster mobs, etc.

[Tuljin]

A little while ago I went to Kedge with a mid 50s duo enc-cle and killed mermaids. We were both very excited about the ZEM but after a while of playing we realized it was nerfed. I thought it was "just me" but I asked around and apparently there have been some grumblings about an old world ZEM nerf (something like this)

Kedge is a ton of fun to play but its an example of "not being worth it" due to having to schlep out there. I don't mind the danger and wonky mob pathing part of it at all, its just that it already takes an hour for ppl to get their shit together to get some grindage going without the long schlep. Now that the ZEM is nerfed its really "not worth it."

The best way to "collect data" is to just go kill mobs for a period of time and find out the ZEM for yourself. The precise calculation is difficult but what's -not- difficult (if youre not a nub) is going to the zone and killing mobs for a couple hours. My friend and I went and tried Kedge, had some fun and some laughs, but when we realized the rate was slower than other places we didnt go back.

If you are grinding thru your 50s you have plenty of time to visit pretty much every single high level zone if you want and figure out ZEMs. Its a similar concept in the leveling zones but again, its a matter of nubs being nubs and not being able to survive difficult content and a lot of mid-level zones not being difficult to get to.

At this point I've pretty much figured out where the crack XP is and if its a night where a zone is totally packed and I have to go somewhere else I have my next choice zones already figured out. I don't particularly want to share my non-scientifically gathered data but its become server gossip/knowledge that Kedge is nerfed.

I like the sentiment of many of the nerds who posted here - if you want to figure it out, just go play. You'll find out the ZEM of a zone in a solid two-hour grind sesh.

[skarlorn]

Welcome to the Forums, where a derail is just a Submit Reply button away.

welcome to the Forums where you put an idea to the public and then the public does whatever it wants

[Tuljin]

I never understood the belief that kedge is some long haul out of the way dungeon. It’s literslly a 2-3 minute run from a Druid ring. A low level Druid ring at that.

Same here dude, there are many dungeons that fall into this category of "a pain in the ass to get to but actually not really" hahaha. Karnor's Castle is a longer run than many zones and shit XP yet people go there all the time without question. Hole is a very short run from Tox port yet people don't want to go (dangerous and difficult zone with better XP and better drops than KC) the list goes on man

[skarlorn]

Kedge just scares people off cause they struggle with the vertical axis of the map and the constant need to consume Gillyweed

[Bboboo]

Hole is a very short run from Tox port yet people don't want to go (dangerous and difficult zone with better XP and better drops than KC) the list goes on man

The Hole dungeon crawls some of the most fun I've had on this server.

[d3r14k]

Kedge just scares people off cause they struggle with the vertical axis of the map and the constant need to consume Gillyweed

Can confirm this: I am terrified of Kedge. Been in there a couple times but I don't like to do it without a cleric on standby for rezzes.

1) The little fish that don't have names above their heads are difficult to target and always seem to give me a problem. They only hit for 1 - 5 damage but they love swarming and interrupting your spells.

2) The pathing in Kedge is weird.

3) Random see-invis mobs.

4) The vertical axis definitely throws me off. In theory it shouldn't be too hard, especially since there's a sweet 3D map on the Wiki of the zone.

In before someone tells me Kedge is easy and I'm a noob. A couple more visits will probably make me feel a lot better about it but I can 100% see why people don't like it.

[skarlorn]

The little fish are a clerics nightmare. They aggro when you sit. I used to crawl kedge and distinctly remember my cleric friend getting eaten alive because he didn't carry a melee weapon to deal with the pesky feesh