Bard / Monk capabilities

[mrG9three]

I have yet to make it to end game, and am wondering which of these two classes would have more options/ease from 50-60 .. I have both at 20 right now and while the tool kit the bard has is appealing it's solo style seems difficult .. Anyhow, which would be a greater success at higher level?? Bard or Monk

[Pyrion]

Monks solo capabilities get weaker with levels since you will need heals for higher level mobs. Together with a shaman you will totally rock though.

Bards are just gods. If you have the impression that bard soloing means just swarming that's totally wrong. My bard never did that. There are so many other options. You can charm kill (like a chanter), fear kite (like an SK but with much better dots) or even aggro kite. If you have a partner with root you can root rott, better than any other class. The higher level bard dots are pretty insane when played with a good instrument.

The only problem with bards is that you need to be very very active. It can wear you out, and this is a serious warning. You need those /stopsong /cast x macros and maybe some more. Swapping instruments and melee weapons can be a pain, but at later levels you probably won't melee much anymore.

[XeroKill]

Bard 100%

Everything Pyrion said is completely on point and then add to the fact that there are a million Monks in the raid scene and though their DPS stacks up nicely, there can only be so many pullers and pulling is the only other thing they do besides punching. On the other hand, there are NEVER enough Bards to go around. You are infinitely more useful to a group or raid as a bard, and your ability to solo is second only to the top tier solo classes of Enchanters, Necromancers and Shamans, and even then it is comparable with pros and cons to each.

Bards truly are a jack of all trades and master of most.

[Legidias]

If you have a root partner its great. You can stack about 6 dots (due to server tick) with single target / AE dots going.

But yeah, bard 100% has waaaaaaaay more options than monk.

I would actually somewhat disagree with the monk to bard ratio in raids though. Bards will always be useful in a raid, but there really isnt an "only so many pullers" if you go to the higher end, as big pulls can require ~18 monks to do.

Even in like PoH or PoF, monks perish on a pull pretty often so having a "fresh" monk to pull while previous waits on rez sickness makes the process smoother.

This end game scenario heavily depends on your confidence in splitting / pulling though.

[Troxx]

Very few classes will level faster and easier than bard even if you refuse to aoe dot kite. From 50-60 I can't think of a single group my monk or bard was in that could match the xp rate of my bard solo.

Monks and bards are simply too different to fairly compare against each other.

[Legidias]

Yeah, even if kill speed might be slower, a decent bard kite would be 0 downtime resulting in more xp / hour overall. The monk miiight be able to kill a mob faster, but they would probably finish a fight at what, 40%? or lower HP which then takes forever to get back up enough to fight again.

For a bard, you can charm kite till mana nearly gone, then just fear kite until its back up.

[Spyder73]

Eh there is a lot of Bard love in this thread but the truth is a Bard is not a min/max class and a Monk is. Necromancers 55+ can almost solo heal a group while simultaneously adding in DPS equivalent to a rogue, yet P99 will pick a rog for their last spot 9 times out of 10.

Unfortunately the Bard is the same. The reason being there are a lot of sh!ty Bard/Necro's and the server has made its mind up about these classes years ago and group think makes people unable to see past this.

The truth is you will have infinitely more ease/options as a Monk. Notice how much of what people are basing their Bard recommendations on are based on the Solo game, that's because any Bard who ever reached 60 did most of it Solo because they were unable to find a group.

Bards add a ton and I find them really fun but they are not a DPS class, they are not a CC class, they are not a healing class, they are not really anything besides group augmentation which asides from Cantina other classes can all do better.

50+ Bards fall apart due to the level restrictions of their songs. Charm stops working, mez stops working, their haste/slows starts to get outpaced from shamans/chanters. its a great class and a lot of fun but to say a Bard has an easier time is just not true. How many bards do you see at cash camps like Fungi King? 0. Its a shaman/chanter/monk/cleric locking it down. How many times do you see 'group seeking Bard' in Seb/HS? Almost none because they can't Feign Death and 1 crit lul resist brings and entire room of monsters to wipe the group plus the fact they can no longer CC any mob over level...52?

The truth of this is also simply in the numbers. How many more Monks are there compared to Bards? There is a reason for this.

[citizen1080]

Eh there is a lot of Bard love in this thread but the truth is a Bard is not a min/max class and a Monk is. Necromancers 55+ can almost solo heal a group while simultaneously adding in DPS equivalent to a rogue, yet P99 will pick a rog for their last spot 9 times out of 10.

Unfortunately the Bard is the same. The reason being there are a lot of sh!ty Bard/Necro's and the server has made its mind up about these classes years ago and group think makes people unable to see past this.

The truth is you will have infinitely more ease/options as a Monk. Notice how much of what people are basing their Bard recommendations on are based on the Solo game, that's because any Bard who ever reached 60 did most of it Solo because they were unable to find a group.

Bards add a ton and I find them really fun but they are not a DPS class, they are not a CC class, they are not a healing class, they are not really anything besides group augmentation which asides from Cantina other classes can all do better.

50+ Bards fall apart due to the level restrictions of their songs. Charm stops working, mez stops working, their haste/slows starts to get outpaced from shamans/chanters. its a great class and a lot of fun but to say a Bard has an easier time is just not true. How many bards do you see at cash camps like Fungi King? 0. Its a shaman/chanter/monk/cleric locking it down. How many times do you see 'group seeking Bard' in Seb/HS? Almost none because they can't Feign Death and 1 crit lul resist brings and entire room of monsters to wipe the group plus the fact they can no longer CC any mob over level...52?

The truth of this is also simply in the numbers. How many more Monks are there compared to Bards? There is a reason for this.

This is 99% false. The ONLY camp that comes to mind that bard is not an ideal pick is King, due to the extremely high mez resists on the shrooms. I have never had an issue getting groups as a bard, they just bring too much utility to a group to be passed up. The only downside to bards is they do not stack well. A group can easily have 2 monks and do well, double bards is shooting yourself in the foot as songs don't stack and there really isn't 6-8 songs that need to be played for a group that won't block one another. An enchanter in the group will somewhat lower your appeal as a bard, but you still bring way more to the group than a monk. I have both at lvl 60 and enjoy both. You really can't go wrong either way. But if you want a class that is always in demand for groups and raids, and can get solo xp faster than any other class in game, Go Bard.

As for why there are more monk than bards, its a much easier class to play sans high end pulling situations like king or raids.

[Legidias]

How exactly is a monk a min/max class? Niche for sure, but min/max? no. Warriors and rangers can both out dps monks on the raid scene, and both are better tanks as well. Pulling is what theyre good at, but even then, technically SK's can do it better with more health, snares and spells to help.

In seb, xping (~55), I would be in group, pulling, tanking, slowing, hasting, CCing, and mana regening at the same time. From my own perspective and the groups, not needing a dedicated tank / CC and just having a healer / DPS means you kill mobs insanely fast. To say a bard isn't wanted in a group (to the extent of necro being unwanted) is insane.

Bard gives more mana regen than an enchanter at that point, which by itself is already pretty good enough for minimal group needs.

50+ bards are exponentially better due to the variations of songs they have. Group overpulled? charm one mob = 2 CC'd, mez one, and highsun anything else to let group get out in time. One of my favorite strats is to have AE aggro (slow/snare) ready in case of overpull, and use that in conjuction with frontal melee immunity disc. Barring spell casters, this can hold off 25 mobs at once buying valuable time. The vast majority of XP mobs even at 59 are still charmable and mezzable (seb, etc).

Bards are awesome at king camp... You can trio it with a cleric and monk (given everyone is 60 and like thurg+ geared).

There are more monks because monks are easier. You would be a fool to think otherwise. Bards need to be on top of their songs and switch out / know when to apply what. They have to know how to fulfill different roles, be it tank, mana regen, puller, CC'er, etc. Monks have 1.5 panic buttons to save themselves in any situation from death, and are generally only tasked with either pulling or dps.

edit* Also, if you wanna talk min/max, bards where its at. You need bards to max out resists and ATK.

[Spyder73]

Warrior/Shaman/Cleric/Enchanter/Rogue/Monk

Please explain where the Bard fits into this group comp which is the min/max group comp that a very high percentage of people aim for.

In no situation is a Bard ideal, Bards are ideal in non-ideal situations. People don't like intentionally forming their group to be non-ideal 50+

I don't want you guys thinking I am saying bards are worthless, they are not and properly played extremely powerful. Problem is 3/4th of the time they are not properly played and a sh!t Bard is worse than just having the group slot blank. Risk/reward is low

You guys are leading this guy to believe the road to being a Bard is easier than it is.

[Legidias]

For xp? Ideal is Bard + cleric (or shammy) + 4 rogues. If theres a good charmable mob, you can sub in an enchanter, but you really wont get any better xp than this set up as its primed for maximum kill speed. The group you proposed is like the general "seems good" group, which is basically the opposite from min/max.

I dunno what era you're from, but you got some overlaps in there. Most groups would only want to pick 2 from the cleric / shammy / enchanter classes and not all 3 as they are kinda redundant if you have all of them when you can fill in that slot with DPS or better utility.

Any class is shit if not played properly. A cleric not healing right? dead group. An enchanter not charming / mezzing right? dead group. A tank not holding aggro right? dead group. A monk not pulling right? dead group.

And as I stated in previous post, if nothing else of any of your considerations, bards are the ultimate insurance policy. Grab aggro of 25 mobs and not get killed without heals for 10 secs is a game changer in both group and raid.

[Spyder73]

So for XP groups you are claiming that from 50-60 Bards are good tanks? Ok bud

[Legidias]

Yes.

You do not seem to understand the meaning of "min/max" very well. It doesnt mean to kill stuff in safety, taking your time, as your group was set up to do. It means aiming towards one thing to the maximum, disregarding other factors. Is a bard the BEST damage mitigation tank? hell no. But for xp group you dont need warriors discing everything.

What the bard tank does, is allow the group as a whole to focus on kill speed, maximizing xp / time. Yes there's inherent risk, but thats part of min/max. If you want to be the best tank, you're gonna give up on some DPS. If you want max DPS, you're gonna have to give up on some survivability.

I would even say, a bard is the best part of a goup for max dps the moment it has selo's consonant chain song in your mid-20's. Go anywhere outdoors, grab some DPS group members. You can just snare kite it around while your DPS bash it. It wont lose aggro cause selo's chain is basically the best aggro in the game. You dont take any mana to use it, and no one in the group takes damage. You can keep killing as long as you have energy to be at the keyboard.

[Spyder73]

Bards are one of the worst DPS classes in the game so not sure what you are getting at. And despite you just saying they can tank the reality is they can not tank well 50+ even in sh!t spots like KC. What made them good below 50 is a detriment post 50 (IE Snare/Slow argoing)

[SiouxNation]

A well played bard is without a doubt an extremely valuable tool. A monk has a low ceiling for plays to be made. As laid out here, bard charm plus mezzing is where they shine. Bard is the highest skill cap class in this game, and it’s not even close.

The problem with bards is so many bad ones play here. Anytime I try and give tips to a bad bard they usually just tell me to stop telling them how to play. Meanwhile we’re at ledge in FM and they are standing still playing three songs and not attacking.

If you play bard use your abilities and push the limits, lead and form groups and you will make a name for yourself and have a ton of fun in the process.

[Legidias]

Spyder you still arent understanding what I am saying. Bards as a class by themselves are not the BEST DPS or BEST mitigation. What they do, is allow the group to have the MAXIMUM possible DPS combination. If you have a warrior (or knight) tank, then you will need a second slot filled by slow / haste / cc which again lowers DPS by a significatn amount.

I could tank Kael arena at 58 in thurg gear. Tanking isnt that hard. If you have somewhat decent gear and not leather, KC is a joke to tank in the setup Ive given since mobs die so fast. I even once had a group of me, a monk, and 2 rogues. We would pull mobs into RCY, and I could fear / snare them and the mob would die before getting to the exit door of RCY (roughly 20-30sec kill time). Again, the point of a min/max xp group isnt safety. Its killing speed. With 4 rogues, mobs die so fast you barely take damage. The group composition isnt to tank a mob for ages without taking damage. Its maxed out DPS which means more xp, less damage taken.

[Spyder73]

I'm really not trying to get into a fight with you guys about Bards. I have a 52 Bard I use as a Naggy alt and I love playing him. I am just trying to be realistic about what OP can expect.

There are way too many bad Bards compared to other classes is the main problem, plus I think the XP penalty stigma is just ingrained in some old schoolers.

Example, a Bard who doesn't know how to break his Charms will very quickly have the group asking him to stop charming because it is a nuisance and not a positive to be staring at a mob trying to attack it for 6 seconds wondering wtf is going on. Example, a bard who continues to Mez sh!t when we have an enchanter will very quickly be asked to STOP mezing sh!t because their mez is inferior by A LOT. Example, certain camps your songs become useless due to mob level. Example, Bard refuses to add melee damage and thinks he should just play Cantina with his lute on. Example, Bard will only melee and forgets to keep pumping mana while in combat so he can add in a sh!ty damage shield or some other nonsense. Example, Bard will immediately start Slowing and pulling agro draining healers mana pools because he cant figure out when to cast Slow properly

The examples of bad (and fairly common/easy) mistakes for a Bard is enormous in comparison. A monk does solid DPS and about the only thing they can screw up is pulling too many mobs, dying, or pulling too slowly.

EVEN SO, A perfectly played monk IMO is more desirable on P99 than a perfectly played Bard due to DPS disparity between the 2. DPS is king on P99

[Legidias]

That's fair. Thats also the same reason why theres more monks. They're easier to play. Bards do as much as the effort put into them. Monks more or less are the same across the board.

Besides min/max though, theres the options that a bard has that monks simply dont. As you said, maybe some camps dont suit a bard at some level. Good news is, bards at any level can have a plethora of places to hunt at, whereas monks will probably tend to specific zones and are limited by that.

Going back to OP, if he's worried about soloing / xp at all, theres no question that a bard is better for xp gain. Monks can solo all the way to 51 without a fungi (I just had some crescent gear / black panther and a peacebringer), but it will by far take longer than a bard in cloth gear. I solo'd my monk (also my vox/naggy alt) almost all the way to 51, but it was definitely more annoying than doing so on bard.

[SiouxNation]

So your main argument against bards is that they have more opportunities to mess things up. Doesn’t that mean they inversely have more opportunities to make group changing plays? Every example you cited as a weakness is a benefit that can be gained through correct play.

Meanwhile you claim monks can’t screw things up that bad, to me that means they can’t add all that much. Personally I would prefer to have a properly played rogue and bard vs a monk and a bard.

Bard utility can’t be dismissed simply by saying it could go bad if played incorrectly. That is way to easy to dismantle

[Spyder73]

My main argument is people are going to shun OP from 50-60 because of all the other slap asses that came before him for pick up groups if he is playing a Bard and as a monk will be welcomed with open arms into the 'melee meat grinder' mentality that every HS/Seb/Velk/*insert any other 50+ zone* has on the P99 server.

Everything you are saying is true for Necromancer also, try getting in a pick up group as a Necromancer and tell me how it went.

[Spyder73]

This not even mentioning that the Bard Epic (while much easier these days) is still essentially unobtainable outside of Aftermath/Awakened and Monk Epics are completed nearly every single day.

[Legidias]

I will mention though that as my bard moved up through 40's and 50's, I got a lot of tells of come to XX zone for YY camp (HS, seb, KC, etc.) and have not gotten any of those even once on my monk.

[SiouxNation]

Be the change you wish to see. Resist the status quo.

[citizen1080]

Here's a perk that spyder can't debate. I did 59-60 in about 8 hours solo on my bard. Or you can spend weeks or months on the monk. What is your time worth?

[Wfrench1234]

You’re all forgetting one universal mantra in games like this. Take the player, not the class. A well played anything in the hands of a skilled player will outperform someone who is lazy about learning the ins and outs of their class. If the OP is the former not the latter, either class would be great and a boon to all they group with.

[Terrel]

I'm bard!

I'm halfway decent at it; probably not the best.

One point I haven't seen emphasized in this thread is that bards have soooo many different ways to make a group better.

Legidias mentioned the fear kite approach in KC. Works great! There are LOTS of other ways bards can make strong contributions to groups.

Don't dismiss the Cantana line. Yes, some lazy bards will simply play that and afk. But it's soooooo helpful, that groups are often ok with that. In the hands of a decently played bard, you can add Niv's melody, ...super regen between those two songs. I've done KC with no healer and we were fine. But wait, there's more!

No chanter or shammy? Add haste! You're right that it's not as good as the other 2 classes, but 45% haste is nothing to sneer at, either. While helping the group super regen!

Have a chanter or shammy? Great! endless mana & regen, PLUS you can add a nice 21 (or so) damage shield at the same you're adding 60 attack and 40 str! (Thanks McVaxius' Rousing Rondo) That's 3 songs....you get to add a 4th....

Mana free snare to stop runners? Another stackable damage shield? Resist buffs against casters? DoT's?

Or charm another mob? Great DPS, and with super regen going, when it breaks, you'll regen the health back in no time...no heals needed.

Chanter getting beat on? Mez or snare his protagonist to give him a minute to breath.

Chanter leaves the group? no problem. You've got the mezzes. They dont' last as long, true, but keeping 3 mobs on ice while playing Cantana is easy peasy. 4, too, but I may be sweating slightly :>

We havent' even gotten into pulling!

Someone mentioned melee'ing earlier in the thread. Post 30's, you're usually more useful to your group if you're NOT melee'ing. The instrument bonuses outweigh the weak melee DPS. I did say "usually". Depending upon group makeup and song choice, adding your paltry melee damage might be the best option. Caveat: once you have your epic, might as well melee as much as you can, since the need to switch instruments isn't (usually) important.

Bards have tons of options and ways to play :)

[mefdinkins]

I have a level 60 monk and bard. I solo'ed completely 1-60 on bard and monk. Neither are all star geared but they both have decent HP, Resists, NTOV items, and their epics.

For solo'ing both are pretty easy to 60 compared to the path some other classes would have to take.

Each one has amazing tools. Bard is more of a support class and reliant on others to do next level shit. Monk is more reliant on gear to do next level shit.

Figure out what matters most to you in game. Is it grouping in Seb which a lot of the people are talking about in this thread; or is it raiding, solo content, finishing quests with your buddies? Then choose the class that will allow you to have the play style you like most.

[mefdinkins]

Here's a perk that spyder can't debate. I did 59-60 in about 8 hours solo on my bard. Or you can spend weeks or months on the monk. What is your time worth?

Was that before 25 mob nerf? I charm killed on bard and solo'ed on monk 59-60 both took me a week or two, didn't pull out a stop watch though.

[citizen1080]

Was that before 25 mob nerf? I charm killed on bard and solo'ed on monk 59-60 both took me a week or two, didn't pull out a stop watch though.

Nope that was post 25 mob limit

[Legidias]

Leash is more annoying than 25 mob limit =/

[mrG9three]

Hey guys, read through all the responses and while monk is fun (and easier) i think that i will press forward on bard and try to learn kiting. Wish me luck lmao x_x

[SiouxNation]

Hey guys, read through all the responses and while monk is fun (and easier) i think that i will press forward on bard and try to learn kiting. Wish me luck lmao x_x

Enjoy, you will.

[Qtip]

Hey guys, read through all the responses and while monk is fun (and easier) i think that i will press forward on bard and try to learn kiting. Wish me luck lmao x_x

God bless your wrist.

Bard was fun when you could 60-70 mob kites in Fv.

[mrG9three]

Well so far i have lost 30% exp in overthere, going to try binding in field of bone and keep at it.. Just hoping i dont go back to 19 at this point heh

[citizen1080]

Well so far i have lost 30% exp in overthere, going to try binding in field of bone and keep at it.. Just hoping i dont go back to 19 at this point heh

Gonna be a learning curve with each new area you kite in. Worth having a cleric there with ya at least while learning to rez you after deaths. It's not easy. But well worth it.

[mrG9three]

im practicing 1 - 2 mobs at a time and realizing this is not going to be easy as i'd hoped for sure haha

[mefdinkins]

im practicing 1 - 2 mobs at a time and realizing this is not going to be easy as i'd hoped for sure haha

There's a lot of different tactics, I ended up getting jboots because the speed was consistent 35% over the full duration. Some people kite without movement speed, some kite with sow on (which has it's own pros and cons). I died a few times but back in the days you could kite 100 things it was quicker to just do another pull than try to get a res.

Once you get it down, you'll be good. There's also some youtube videos and guides on the forums? You should check those out.

[branamil]

God bless your wrist.

Bard was fun when you could 60-70 mob kites in Fv.

You still can, they just die 25 at a time =]

[fastboy21]

Even if you never use the AE to powerlvl yourself or others it is worth learning the mechanics and the coordination for it. For me, I find that I have to strafe a lot (even with selos) to avoid getting hit...which took me a while to get down.

You can use your AE snare to CC pretty much unlimited mobs in KC and other camps. Its a bit dicky and lots of grps won't want you to do it, but its actually a good technique if you can do it reliably. Just another tool in your bag of tricks. Unlike most EQ classes/abilities you actually need some real life twitch coordination to pull it off.

[Hyperbole]

If you're using any kind of speed buff you're doing it wrong.

[mrG9three]

Is that true that the speed buff throws it off?? I parked the bard and gave up for now, figuring my poor internet is going to prevent me from being a decent swarm kiter.. Usually sitting at 1000ms

[Legidias]

No, because theres several different ways to do AE kites (also, don't take advice from anyone who calls it "swarm" kiting).

Non speed buff strafe.
SoW
Jboots
Sow / JBoots with a specific weight to get a specific speed
Selos

Speed buff strafe
Speed buff oval
Speed buff tap circle
Speed buff random pattern n shit

Everyone has their preferred pattern that works for them. I like tap circles myself. Many others do strafe. w/e

[mefdinkins]

I wouldn't want to AE kite w/ 1000 ms ping

[citizen1080]

I wouldn't want to AE kite w/ 1000 ms ping

This

[mrG9three]

I wouldn't want to AE kite w/ 1000 ms ping

I play on an hp pavillion laptop i got a while back when taking classes.. Looks like i'll be needing to upgrade heh

[Fazlazen]

Eh there is a lot of Bard love in this thread but the truth is a Bard is not a min/max class and a Monk is. Necromancers 55+ can almost solo heal a group while simultaneously adding in DPS equivalent to a rogue, yet P99 will pick a rog for their last spot 9 times out of 10.

Unfortunately the Bard is the same. The reason being there are a lot of sh!ty Bard/Necro's and the server has made its mind up about these classes years ago and group think makes people unable to see past this.

The truth is you will have infinitely more ease/options as a Monk. Notice how much of what people are basing their Bard recommendations on are based on the Solo game, that's because any Bard who ever reached 60 did most of it Solo because they were unable to find a group.

Bards add a ton and I find them really fun but they are not a DPS class, they are not a CC class, they are not a healing class, they are not really anything besides group augmentation which asides from Cantina other classes can all do better.

50+ Bards fall apart due to the level restrictions of their songs. Charm stops working, mez stops working, their haste/slows starts to get outpaced from shamans/chanters. its a great class and a lot of fun but to say a Bard has an easier time is just not true. How many bards do you see at cash camps like Fungi King? 0. Its a shaman/chanter/monk/cleric locking it down. How many times do you see 'group seeking Bard' in Seb/HS? Almost none because they can't Feign Death and 1 crit lul resist brings and entire room of monsters to wipe the group plus the fact they can no longer CC any mob over level...52?

The truth of this is also simply in the numbers. How many more Monks are there compared to Bards? There is a reason for this.

please stop posting...

[Spyder73]

Bards are not a min/max class. Not sure why what I am posting here is controversial. Bards utility falls off hard due to song level restrictions in the higher levels. If you want to run in circles on the verge of death for hours at a time I am sure Bard is a fine class to play.

[booleansphinx]

Well so far i have lost 30% exp in overthere, going to try binding in field of bone and keep at it.. Just hoping i dont go back to 19 at this point heh

Don't get too caught up on kiting in a "circle"

When I kite, I put my camera over my character's head (like a top-down view) as I am casting the DOT. You will be able to see the monsters in the corner of your screen earlier (before they are even in range of the level 2 dot).

When there's around 1/3 to 1/2 of the casting time remaining on the song, I begin turning into the mobs. The mobs start at the edge of the screen and end up a bit closer, just as the song finishes. If I run out of range of motion in my wrist before the song finishes it usually means the song will miss because as long as you're not turning you're getting further away from the monsters.

[Dreenk317]

Bards are one of the worst DPS classes in the game so not sure what you are getting at. And despite you just saying they can tank the reality is they can not tank well 50+ even in sh!t spots like KC. What made them good below 50 is a detriment post 50 (IE Snare/Slow argoing)

I have personally been in groups featuring a bard as the main tank in the following camps, multiple times, with great success. Seb C/E (yes tanked emp), Seb King camp, Seb disco, KC hands room, Kael plate house and arena. And PoM puppets (tanked all but bristlebane).

Bards make great tanks, same defensive table as warriors, unlike rangers...

In fact, unless I'm killing something that needs defensive, I'd take a bard tank over an equal level warrior tank every time in an exp grind. The only caveat is the bard has to know what they are doing. Where as warriors just have to hit there target key, attack, and taunt every so often :p

[Spyder73]

I have personally been in groups featuring a bard as the main tank in the following camps, multiple times, with great success. Seb C/E (yes tanked emp), Seb King camp, Seb disco, KC hands room, Kael plate house and arena. And PoM puppets (tanked all but bristlebane).

Bards make great tanks, same defensive table as warriors, unlike rangers...

In fact, unless I'm killing something that needs defensive, I'd take a bard tank over an equal level warrior tank every time in an exp grind. The only caveat is the bard has to know what they are doing. Where as warriors just have to hit there target key, attack, and taunt every so often :p

TLDR - With Shaman slow any class in the game (including casters) are capable of tanking.

[Raev]

I think Bards are being painted a bit idyllically in this thread. Somehow everyone treats a good bard like a religious experience. So let me point out some of the Bard negatives that are being swept under the rug.

Problem 1: you can't chat. A mediocre Bard is clicking to sing a new song every 3 seconds. A good bard is doing that plus targeting for charm/mez, positioning for melee, running around pulling, and using the Breath of Harmony. That doesn't leave a lot of time for chatting in a theoretically social game. Unless. You. Like. Typing. One. Word. At. A. Time. And. Elevated. Cortisol.

Problem 2: Bard tanking is better in theory than practice IMO. When you are getting your face bashed in, it's hard to keep up more than 3 songs. So you are singing 30% slow, cantata, and one mez or charm or damage shield. Is this really a huge win vs the superior mitigation and DPS of a Warrior? Worse, when the tanking bard goes to pull the group totally stops (ok, I know about the SS hat, but you can't lull and such).

Problem 3: Bards really struggle vs higher level content. Pacifying in Siren's Grotto is a great way to raise your heart rate. Forget about charm - that caps at 51. And you'll have quite a few mobs that are immune to mez, and it won't be easy to tell since most things resist kind of hard. In comparison, Monk FD works on mobs of all levels.

Problem 4: Monks shine in small groups, like MNK/NEC/SHM or MNK/CLR/ENC, where they can dps, tank, and pull. Bards, despite being a hybrid class, are paradoxically somewhat weaker in smaller groups because their songs hit half as many players. Smaller groups mean more loot and fewer camp disputes (The Bard/RogueX4/Cleric group in RCY sounds like a great way to get a flamewar going in OOC) and are also just more fun.

I think it's also important to remember that this is a very mature server. KC was tuned for group of 52s where the warrior has two yaks, FBSS, and crafted armor and so on. So yeah, a Bard with a full group of Velious geared 60s can clobber the spore king camp. Who can't? Even without invis pulling, this was an easy trio in Kunark gear MNK/CLR/ENC. The only challenging dungeons at this point are SG, Kael Arena (only if you do the protectors and guardians) and to some extent DN. Put 1-4 together and I don't think Bards outshine Monks, Warriors, Clerics, Shaman, etc in those areas.

Anyway, that was the negative picture of Bards. And in general I think hybrids on P99 are underrated and pure melee are overrated. Now that sneak has been nerfed into the ground I don't think Monks are really better 1-60. The problem is that Velious raid gear allows them to replace 6AC slots with 60AC slots and suddenly a raid monk has the durability of a raid knight or a HOT/Epic Warrior, which is way too good for anything that isn't the Temple of Veeshan.

[Fazlazen]

You have spewed so much bullshit in the thread, spyder73, it is hard to get behind you on anything you say. First, let’s get something straight, bard mezz can mezz anything an enchanter can mezz (sans rapture), which nobody uses in group settings anyways.

Bard can tank just fine when it is group content. They get a slow up to 35%, which make it so they barely take damage. They are much better pullers than any other class in group content, with SS helm, pacify, charm and mezz. That is even monks. When a good bard joins a group, a monk is nothing more than a poor mans rogue.

They can assume the combined roles of tank, cc and puller without ever leaving the camp.

They are by far the best grouping class for group exp content, when in the Right hands.

[Saludeen]

Spyder knows whats up

[skarlorn]

Yeah I actually agree with Spyder largely. You'll have an easier time on monk. I will say that a great bard IS a religious experience, especially at lower levels. But 9 times out of ten I'll take a chanter over a bard because their impact is more stable, sustainable, and scales better at level 60.

[enjchanter]

Everything you are saying is true for Necromancer also, try getting in a pick up group as a Necromancer and tell me how it went.

This is so true and I hate it. Necros are an amazing class that fuels a group in so many ways self sustaining and topping it if with a pocket rogue , I mean CMOM GUYS

[putrid_plum]

I echo the necro group hate, I played one to 45 and just gave up because you can't get groups no matter how useful you are. There's some sort of stigma against necros in a group setting or something on P99. If you want to just solo then sure necro is a great class for you but don't expect to ever find any sort of pickup group!

[fastboy21]

I echo the necro group hate, I played one to 45 and just gave up because you can't get groups no matter how useful you are. There's some sort of stigma against necros in a group setting or something on P99. If you want to just solo then sure necro is a great class for you but don't expect to ever find any sort of pickup group!

I recently leveled my necro to 60 in KC...I only solo'd while LFG. I had no issues getting a spot. Not only is grping on a necro fun, but it is actually quite OP.

In undead zones you are charming (and dps'ing) like a chanter. you can heal and cc.

Only a fool wouldn't want you in a DPS spot in a KC grp. Honestly, the biggest issue I had grping was that I often found myself thinking about how much more exp I could get if I dropped and went solo. Grping is more fun (for me) at least though.

I will add that I hate necros who play their necro like a mage. You are expected to do much more than hit pet attack on your summoned pet. I have been kicking necros in PUGs that refuse to play properly recently. There is no shortage of them in KC, and they make it harder for the good ones.

[Jimjam]

I loved duoing with necromancers while playing on my ranger at hands. I'm sure even despite me providing tank/regen/slows/pulls/dps/no pet penalty I was slowing the necromancers xp.

The only reason not to invite a necro is out of selfless consideration for the necro's xp rate.

[TheFishyOne]

If you’re looking to get this toon to endgame, just ask yourself, “Do I wanna do the train up, or the tag out?”