Some of you got your wish

[Mead]

http://www.philly.com/philly/health/addiction/safe-injection-sites-overdose-deaths-opioids-philadelphia-officials-support-20180123.html

Yikes

[Cecily]

http://www.philly.com/philly/health/addiction/safe-injection-sites-overdose-deaths-opioids-philadelphia-officials-support-20180123.html

Yikes

So you'd rather them just die in the privacy of their own homes? This is a fucking good thing.

[Cecily]

Oh that's just what I say to any link I don't click.

[Lhancelot]

As with all topics like this there are many perspectives and disagreement is inevitable.

One perspective is Philly is enabling the drug addicts and interfering with natural selection all the while costing tax payers the bill to do so.

Another perspective is Philly is doing the morally right thing and removing some of the dangers the drug addicts face on a daily basis not just for the drug addicts personally but for the city as inevitably it pays the price of these drug addicts when they overdose and need medical assistance etc. (They don't always die.) Giving them safer methods to do their drugs means a safer city all around.

I mean it's more complicated than just these points but this is how I see most people viewing this.

I am assuming Philly is considering how some European countries manage their own crisis of drug addiction as it reminds me of what I have read them doing in the past.

I feel bad for drug addicts so I tend to go with the second reasoning and think what Philly is doing is trailblazing in the history of the USA as we never had a city, let alone a major city try something like this.

Will it work? I don't know. I do see other perspectives though and can't fault them for their logic.

[Pokesan]

oh no now philly will be trash

[Mead]

^hehehe

id like to utilize this garbage thread to apologize for my pugnacity this too-early morn. drugs kicking in. i will take it ez on yall now.

Don't worry, you can't hurt my feels bj

Try not to ascend so quick again

[Lhancelot]

Don't worry, you can't hurt my feels bj

Try not to ascend so quick again

https://i.imgur.com/wBoXEX6.gif

[SiouxNation]

Philly is a hellscape town with garbage citizens.

[Spyder73]

oh no now philly will be trash

Philly is a hellscape town with garbage citizens.

Lets open pedophilia safe sites next so that child molester's have a safe space to touch manikins and midgets dressed up as children while we are at it.

Heroic addicts are responsible for massive amounts of crime and robbery and the best rehab for a heroin addict is about 2 years in prison where they can dry out and get a grip on their life.

SOURCE: My brother was a heroic addict for 2 or 3 years and jail is what finally cleaned him up

[Lhancelot]

SOURCE: My brother was a heroic addict for 2 or 3 years and jail is what finally cleaned him up

Well if this logic works then by all means we should build more jails right?

Fact is we have more correctional facilities in the USA than ever and more heroin addicts than ever so jails are not the answer.

Going to jail might have been a turning point for your brother but for the majority of jail bound addicts it doesn't aid them in stopping their drug habits long term, it's just a temporary stopping point until they get out again.

Recidivism is real and for a large portion of drug addicts they need more than jail.

[Cecily]

Why hasn't anyone thought of locking them up? Congrats Wu'Tang. You just stopped the opioid epidemic.

[Lulz~Sect]

I’d be dead if cocaine was free
Not sure I agree with enabling via free drug paraphernalia

[Spyder73]

You two seem to have a flawed perception of how this works in real life.

#1 - Most of them don't actually want help until they are in trouble with the law or have f#cked over family members to the point where they are outcasts, even then this is a ruse. This leads them to robbery to support their drug habbit which eventually leads them to jail. They almost never go to jail for actual drugs, its the sh!ty things they do to get drugs that gets them locked up. Creating rehab facilities does not help these people and I would wager MOST heroin addicts are somewhere in this cycle. The people who WANT help can find it readily available, problem is most of them just flat out like getting high and have no intention of getting 'well'

#2 you think them dying off is a problem, I do not. I do however find it to be a problem to condone use of the worst drug in the world (Meth vs Heroin I guess is a valid debate)

#3 I am not for more jail, but I am also not for having dangerous drug addicts who do not actually want to get well having safe injection zones because I fundamentally disagree that they have a 'problem' and I tend to think they are lazy and self entitled children who need to be locked away until they are clean.

[Spyder73]

I’d be dead of cocaine was free
Not sure I agree with enabling via free drug paraphernalia

+1

[loramin]

Why hasn't anyone thought of locking them up? Congrats Wu'Tang. You just stopped the opioid epidemic.

[Cecily]

You two seem to have a flawed perception of how this works in real life.

I think I'm very well acquainted.


https://i.imgur.com/Uo4zste.jpg
Miss Whitney Nicole Brooks, 22 of Frederick, MD., died Friday, December 25, 2009

https://i.imgur.com/aVWwFBl.jpg
Scott Robert Tooley, 27, of Frederick passed away suddenly at his home on March 5, 2011.

[Spyder73]

Then you realize that neither one of your friends would have voluntarily gone to rehab, or am I wrong on that also? Involuntary rehab is called jail.

I have had friends who OD'd and either it came as a surprise because they were not 'junkies' or it was a 'yea that sounds about right' because they had huge problems and would not accept help

[Lulz~Sect]

This could happen to any party people in my neighborhood TBH
Just takes a bad batch (this actually happened recently in Bushwick)
The only solution is to not use

RIP

[Cecily]

Then you realize that neither one of your friends would have voluntarily gone to rehab, or am I wrong on that also? Involuntary rehab is called jail.

I have had friends who OD'd and either it came as a surprise because they were not 'junkies' or it was a 'yea that sounds about right' because they had huge problems and would not accept help

I hope you suffer a horrible accident and get addicted to pain meds. Then I hope the doctor notices your drug seeking behavior and cuts you off like the worthless drug addict you are. But hey you have a decent job and know a guy who sells pills so whatever. Then your money runs low and you have to seek other alternatives. Then I hope you end up in a ditch chocking on your own vomit from a fentanyl overdose, doesnt take much! Fuck you.

[Cecily]

They were both clean for over a year, btw. Rehab isn't the magic solution you think it is. Addiction leaves long term psychological scars.
And sending SICK people to jail is fucking idiotic. It's real easy to point the finger at the addicts, when it's Big Pharma and doctors and law makers to blame for much/most of this.

[SiouxNation]

As someone who has struggled with addiction it isn’t about the product it’s about the person. If people don’t want to change they won’t, forced rehab doesn’t do anything for anyone.

I think most of us have known or know someone struggling with addiction. That isn’t unique to you Cecily, it’s terible losing loved ones but you have to put some responsibility on the ones ingesting the poison.

[Spyder73]

Not really sure why this is a controversial take I have. I have had opioid addicts in my life for about as long as I can remember and I have absolutely 0 tolerance for them now because of what I have seen and gone through. If they are not interested in cold turkey not using, i'm not interested in them being in my life

I am not belittling your friends Cecily, bad shit happens to good people all the time. My only point to this thread is governmentally funded and sanctioned shoot-up centers are an awful idea.

And I completely disagree with you about jail. I think jail is exactly where 'sick' people belong because its the only chance for them to actually clean out and not fall back into their habits. Agree to disagree if we must but I have never seen someone come out of rehab successfully and I have seen several come out of jail saying "as much as that sucked it was the best thing for me"

[Cecily]

If those centers stop one person from dying, it's worth the money. If they stop one mom from getting the news her kid ODed. If they stop one friend from having a decade long void in their soul. This is precisely what I want to do with my life. I want to help stop pointless death. I want to give people a chance to recover. I don't believe anyone is irredeemable until it's too late.

[Spyder73]

It sounds like you have more faith in people than I do. I am admittedly extremely biased on this issue for a multitude of reasons. I see these centers causing more pain than they cure

[skarlorn]

Heroin will ruin your life and you will never fully recover. Last year I got some nice morphine and I will say that coming off that shit made for a nasty week or two. After my final surgery, I refused any morphine just b/c it's so hard.

Sometimes, I do think it would be better for long-term heroin addicts to die.

:(

[Lulz~Sect]

**I personally find Plebbit terrible but it still gives hope/help to many

How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14805145

[skarlorn]

opium is my proof that i need the state or legal obligation to a patriarchal household to survive

i worry about you sometimes bud!

[Lemonhead]

Almost every single long term opiate addict would give anything to not be an opiate addict. It has little to do with willpower once you go over the rainbow and into the darkness.

[JurisDictum]

When I was 24 -- I was arrested for "unlawful manufacture of marijuana"

This is what I looked like when I was 24:

9424

This was a Class A felony...and even though I was unlikely to get the book thrown at me ... If I was convicted I'd get AT LEAST 3 months in prison...that assumes they would let me out for good behavior.

So I'm thinking "wow I might actually get raped." I'm somewhere between 6'2'' and 6'3''...But I was skinny as shit and kind of a gaming nerd shut in. I was at very least -- in for an ass kicking.

When I got off on home detention..the 40 year old woman helping process the money looked at me right side-wise as I was leaving and said

"I'm glade it worked out"

And I am too. Because no matter how much pot I grew...I really wasn't prison material.

So anyway you can't expunge class A felonies...Recently its now been considered class C so I'm waiting on an expungement to go through (which costed $1300).

My arrest and conviction for growing pot has had zero positive impact on me, my family or society at large. In fact, it made shit a lot worse for me and them. I did stop smoking pot temporarily...because I really didn't want my 3 years probation expanded any further.

Then I sparked up when I got the letter in the mail that I was no longer on probation.

Some of the guys I know are now millionaires because they didn't have someone rat them out and ruin their god damn business a few years before it was all god damn legal anyway.

Once you been through that...you don't like cops anymore. It's not really rational -- its just how it goes. You don't feel like you owe society a god damn thing. You don't care about normal conservative people as much anymore -- because those idiots passed the laws put in jail and did zero good for society.

I pay lot less tax now then I did I might add. Buy a lot less stuff. And have a great deal less faith in capitalism. I don't know any wealthy people that didn't:

A) come from wealth

B) try to break the rules to get ahead like I did

Maybe they are out there...good for them...whatever. Its clearly not that common or to be expected. I hear claims all the time about "this guy had nothing"...you'll find when you look into it that they had a great deal going for them even if they didn't come from an upper class family.

Which is fine...we can't all be winners. But maybe society doesn't need to treat the middle/working class like their losers. Or they might just do something stupid.

[skarlorn]

When I was 24 -- I was arrested for "unlawful manufacture of marijuana"

This is what I looked like when I was 24:

9424

This was a Class A felony...and even though I was unlikely to get the book thrown at me ... If I was convicted I'd get AT LEAST 3 months in prison...that assumes they would let me out for good behavior.

So I'm thinking "wow I might actually get raped." I'm somewhere between 6'2'' and 6'3''...But I was skinny as shit and kind of a computer nerd shut in. I was at very least -- in for an ass kicking.

When I got off on home detention..the 40 year old woman helping process the money looked at me right side-wise as I was leaving and said

"I'm glade it worked out"

And I am too. Because no matter how much pot I grew...I really wasn't prison material.

So anyway you can't expunge class A felonies...Recently its now been considered class C so I'm waiting on an expungement to go through (which costed $1300).

My arrest and conviction for growing pot has had zero positive impact on me, my family or society at large. In fact, it made shit a lot worse for me and them. I did stop smoking pot temporarily...because I really didn't want my 3 years probation expanded any further.

Then I sparked up when I got the letter in the mail that I was no longer on probation.

Some of the guys I know are now millionaires because they didn't have someone rat them out and ruin their god damn business a few years before it was all god damn legal anyway.

Once you been through that...you don't like cops anymore. It's not really rational -- its just how it goes. You don't feel like you owe society a god damn thing. You don't care about normal conservative people as much anymore -- because those idiots passed the laws put in jail and did zero good for society.

I pay lot less tax now then I did I might add. Buy a lot less stuff. And have a great deal less faith in capitalism. I don't know any wealthy people that didn't:

A) come from wealth

B) try to break the rules to get ahead like I did

Maybe they are out there...good for them...whatever. Its clearly not that common or to be expected. I hear claims all the time about "this guy had nothing"...you'll find when you look into it that they had a great deal going for them even if they didn't come from an upper class family.

Which is fine...we can't all be winners. But maybe society doesn't need to treat the middle/working class like their losers. Or they might just do something stupid.

great post even if it seems a bit out of context, honestly deserves it's own thread dude!

[Patriam1066]

Is everyone on this forum an autistic white millennial above 6' in height?

[JurisDictum]

Their probably drugging our food to make us taller and more gay.

Seriously...I don't remember Kale...Where did this shit come from? The wiki says the middle ages. Bullshit..the ivented that stuff. It's too perfect for a vegetable. Light, full of protein, no gas issues. Fucking Bullshit GMO

[Ahldagor]

Maye they don't want city services having to drive all over for corpses?

Seriously tho', opium and its derivatives are more addictive than anything on the planet. Too much money being made for sensical regulation tho'.

[Pokesan]

Is everyone on this forum an autistic white millennial above 6' in height?

no im 5'10"

[Lulz~Sect]

https://i.imgur.com/alPqq7r.jpg

[JurisDictum]

I don't really think one drug is far more addictive than another. It's more like people that like heroine get into a more hopeless cycle than people that like pot or beer.

It doesn't take very long to get addicted to alcohol. Low grade alcoholism is common -- where they don't drink a lot bit they need that drink in the evening.

People addict to all kinds of things. Games, gambling...the physiological elements are kind of the minor part...you just need to dry out and that part goes away in a few weeks.

Its the reason people like living on a certain drug -- that's the hard addiction part. And its very much a psychology/environment game.

Heroine doesn't turn people into heroine addicts -- it turns heroine addicts into shit.

[skarlorn]

nnnno dude heroin is actually more addictive.

[Mead]

The affects on the brain of opioids / dependency are already well documented in medicine.

[maskedmelon]

subsidizing the behavior perpetuates the misery of the addicts, their families and all those around them. promoting suffering for the chance at placating one's own conscience in a good deed is inhumane. most empaths cant see the reason behind their feelings and most people endeavoring to cultivate their own empathy simply affect the thoughtless stance of the empath :c don't make others suffer so you can feel righteous.

the idea that addicts are bad people for not choosing to end their addictions is simple idiocy rooted in a virgin ignorance of the nature of addiction. people don't choose addiction aamymore than they choose frustration or incomprehension. it happens. there are steps to avoid dangerous situations, but they are not always foreseeable and it is uncomfortable acknowledging one's own inherent disadvantages.

i am immensely grateful to have people in my life willing to swat me if I stray and equally thankful to have received a personality amenable to correction. not everyone has that. i know if i didn't I'd be on a darker path. I could be on a brighter one too, but the odds are not favorable. at present the worst i have to deal with is F5'ing this damn forum ^^; THOUGH, i have done a pretty darn good job of abstaining... today :o

the most powerful thing you can give someone who suffers addiction or depression is a reason. the need to be needed is an essential part of being human.

[skarlorn]

subsidizing the behavior perpetuates the misery of the addicts, their families and all those around them. promoting suffering for the chance at placating one's own conscience in a good deed is inhumane. most empaths cant see the reason behind their feelings and most people endeavoring to cultivate their own empathy simply affect the thoughtless stance of the empath :c don't make others suffer so you can feel righteous.

the idea that addicts are bad people for not choosing to end their addictions is simple idiocy rooted in a virgin ignorance of the nature of addiction. people don't choose addiction aamymore than they choose frustration or incomprehension. it happens. there are steps to avoid dangerous situations, but they are not always foreseeable and it is uncomfortable acknowledging one's own inherent disadvantages.

i am immensely grateful to have people in my life willing to swat me if I stray and equally thankful to have received a personality amenable to correction. not everyone has that. i know if i didn't I'd be on a darker path. I could be on a brighter one too, but the odds are not favorable. at present the worst i have to deal with is F5'ing this damn forum ^^; THOUGH, i have done a pretty darn good job of abstaining... today :o

the most powerful thing you can give someone who suffers addiction or depression is a reason. the need to be needed is an essential part of being human.

agreed this is what i wanted to say
thank you for this brilliant post, dear :o

[Ket]

Normally, I read posts on this forum and conclude that 99% of the people here are pieces of shit - but this thread is actually kinda nice.

So, maybe 99% of the people here are only pieces of shit 57% of the time. The rest of the time, ya'll ain't so bad.

[skarlorn]

Hey guys,

my graphic designer's son is a heroin addict. Last week he stole all of her money from the bank. Then he emptied her non-profit accounts. Afterwards, he tried to hang himself in her basement. She had to cut him down.

Today, he had to have his thumb amputated because his compromised immune system cannot fight off the STAF infection he gave himself. Pain medicine was ineffective because of his heroin abuse. They had to manually hold him down and amputate the thumb while he was conscious.

heroin is not a joke.

[Baler]

^That is some heavy shit. you didn't need to share that with us. If anyone knows someone suffering from addiction help them get better. :(

[Cecily]

subsidizing the behavior perpetuates the misery of the addicts, their families and all those around them. promoting suffering for the chance at placating one's own conscience in a good deed is inhumane. most empaths cant see the reason behind their feelings and most people endeavoring to cultivate their own empathy simply affect the thoughtless stance of the empath :c don't make others suffer so you can feel righteous.

Maybe you lack the empathy to see the thought behind it. Deferment of death means a chance for recovery. Death forfeits that. It's very simple.

[Lemonhead]

have you ever done heroin or are you LARPing its pretty addictive man. if you don't think a chemical can be addictive go snort some MXE and get back to me lol. habitual and chemical addictions are not the same, though both can simultaneously exist. idk wake me up when people start getting pot dependency withdrawls.

I've never done H, but opiates in general are a whole different animal. It is because they mimic the natural chemical(s) related to reward so well (most drugs do this to some degree). Our body naturally pumps us with this stuff when we do something good, like make more humans.

Then this is coupled with the way the body reacts when it's taken away (dependence).

Not everyone will be susceptible to an opiate addiction equally. I find those with anxiety and depression especially will LOVE the way an opiate feels. It's like they are reborn into someone new, and many will prefer therapeutic doses and you'll never know. That's a sign they are lacking chemically somewhere in the brain, and the opiate is filling it. Most opiate addicts aren't "junkies" btw.

Of course, this doesn't last as the body fights against it's reward system being broken down. The reward system in the brain is a big part of what we are and how we got here. It's a battle against millions of years of evolution.

The dependency feeds the underlying depression, the pathways become more and more locked into "I need this to be happy." It's a vicious circle, and you Literally develop a second voice that is more convincing than fricken God. And it's because you've replaced the essence of what being human is with this little pill. And you will never love anything again quite like it, especially yourself. So, don't do it. =)

If you like that shit and do it every once in a while, you are living every addicts story. You think you have absolute control, but things can change, something goes wrong, you gain easy access. Anyways, this is getting long and rambling and I could write about this all day. And yes, this does describe a lot of addictions, but opiates are just so fricken good at it.

[Mead]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4955026/

[Lhancelot]

I hope you suffer a horrible accident and get addicted to pain meds. Then I hope the doctor notices your drug seeking behavior and cuts you off like the worthless drug addict you are. But hey you have a decent job and know a guy who sells pills so whatever. Then your money runs low and you have to seek other alternatives. Then I hope you end up in a ditch chocking on your own vomit from a fentanyl overdose, doesnt take much! Fuck you.

This is the route it takes so often. Go to a jail, ask people how they began heroin, and almost every time you get "I started on pills."

Heroin is quite cheap in comparison naturally if the pill supply is cut off an addict is going to find a solution to their addiction.

Spyder, you can't take one example of your brother getting off drugs from going to jail as proof jail is good for people. Just be thankful, you are fortunate and so is he.

Lots of different factors involved when it comes to how individuals handle drug addictions and just because one person goes to jail and stops after jail and another doesn't isn't proof that the one who continues doing drugs after jail doesn't want to stop.

As for giving free drug paraphernalia, it isn't encouraging the drug addict to do more drugs. The fact is they are going to do drugs regardless if needles are clean or are needles they found dirty/used in a toilet somewhere.

Providing clean needles could possibly save not just the user from contracting a disease, but also those who they may meet in the future, someone they may end up in a relationship with. It could save a family from losing a loved one. etc. etc.

I have no idea how people confuse drug paraphernalia centers as drug use encouragement centers.

[Lemonhead]

Spyder, you can't take one example of your brother getting off drugs from going to jail as proof jail is good for people. Just be thankful, you are fortunate and so is he.

Yes, in general, this has been proven wrong. The true addict doesn't need to stop the drug so much as he needs to heal his mind. The underlying cause of the addiction is much more compelling than the drug itself. And jail isn't the best place to be re-writing healthy neural pathways.

Most come out and use again eventually. And most deaths are from people with lowered tolerance misjudging dosages.

[maskedmelon]

Maybe you lack the empathy to see the thought behind it. Deferment of death means a chance for recovery. Death forfeits that. It's very simple.

im not saying people should die ceci. im saying that subsidizing destructive behavior is wrong, more wrong in fact than doing nothing. yeah, it may be possible to negate some of the potential consequences, but you are compeling individuals to suffer and not just the ones who are behaving destructively, but also their families, friends and every other person around them. it's wrong. the inclination to want to help isn't what's wrong. acting on that inclination viscerally with no regard for the consequence is.

if you want to do something good, help them stop. help them fix themself or help them manage their problems. don't give them a place to safely continue destroying themself. that's awful :c

[Mead]

I find a lot of times the people supporting these "safe havens" to shoot up are very pro drug and believe people should have the right destroy themselves if they want. The problem with that are obvious reasons you mentioned mm, it's destructive to not only themselves, but their families and friends. And definitely a colossal waste of money and resources to fund / sustain this. The answer definitely isn't enabling this behavior.

[skarlorn]

TURN EM INTO BOLOGNA

[loramin]

if you want to do something good, help them stop. help them fix themself or help them manage their problems. don't give them a place to safely continue destroying themself. that's awful :c

Seriously Melon, I don't mean to be rude (especially given our history), but it's not like an addict's family has never thought to help them. So when you essentially say "keep doing what you're doing, even though it doesn't work", what you're really saying is "screw addicts, let them die: that's better than me spending money on freebies for them".

It's like telling someone with cancer "Cancer patients don't deserve freebies, just have your family pray for you." In the case of tobacco-smoking lung cancer victims, that's pretty equivalent to needle-using drug addicts. In either case, you can pretend that you care about the cancer patient/addict and their family, but really you're telling them to fuck off and die.

I'd argue that we should all be grateful we're not addicted to anything (except an elf sim), we should all have sympathy for both addicts and their families, and we should do whatever we can do to help them ... especially if that only means funding relatively cheap clean needle programs, so that the addicts can live long enough to get clean.

[Lulz~Sect]

Rehab work d for someone I care about. (alcohol) If she didn’t pull herself though the program and sober up she might have become destitute or worse. It’s worth providing the tools to help save lives even if it means tax dollars at work.

I’m undecided about needle exchange.

[Pokesan]

https://i.imgur.com/ppRoHhu.jpg

[JurisDictum]

have you ever done heroin or are you LARPing its pretty addictive man. if you don't think a chemical can be addictive go snort some MXE and get back to me lol. habitual and chemical addictions are not the same, though both can simultaneously exist. idk wake me up when people start getting pot dependency withdrawls.


IDK if its "just as bad" on a chemical level. But all this stuff is similar to pot addiction. Yes, if you smoke everyday for a long time and stop -- you not sleep, you will not be hungry, you might even be sick, you will irritable, shaky and sweaty.

Heroin withdraw is worse. It lasts longer and its more intense. When your on heroin, you are useless. Being useless for long periods of time followed by intense withdraw is likely to cause what exactly? Very desperate behavior. There obviously going to be out of money and their whole body is screaming for heroin.

I'm not saying heroin addiction isn't worse. It's more that I'm saying the mechanisms work similarly. In fact, they suggest trying to pick up pot to quit heroin these days.

In Vietnam, heroine addict soldiers that came home and went through withdraw mostly stopped...except a minority of addicts. They were addicts before they took that drug. 100%. That's all I'm saying. Or they would dry out and quit.

Who here knows a heroin addict that didn't dry out at least once? I mean -- if that's you needed, to dry out and let your brain start rewiring itself, then jail is a good solution.

But, if that really doesn't help the long term addiction...its a waste of resources isn't it?

[skarlorn]

You can get heroin in jail. My source is The Wire.

[maskedmelon]

Seriously Melon, I don't mean to be rude (especially given our history), but it's not like an addict's family has never thought to help them. So when you essentially say "keep doing what you're doing, even though it doesn't work", what you're really saying is "screw addicts, let them die: that's better than me spending money on freebies for them".

it's okay, that's not what I said though. this isn't about money.

It's like telling someone with cancer "Cancer patients don't deserve freebies, just have your family pray for you." In the case of tobacco-smoking lung cancer victims, that's pretty equivalent to needle-using drug addicts. In either case, you can pretend that you care about the cancer patient/addict and their family, but really you're telling them to fuck off and die.

it's not about freebies, lor. it's about being an implement of suffering. I have three questions for you:

1. do you believe suffering is good?
2. do you believe that suffering should be minimized?
3. do you understand that safe injection sites subsidize suffering?

I'd argue that we should all be grateful we're not addicted to anything (except an elf sim), we should all have sympathy for both addicts and their families, and we should do whatever we can do to help them ...

we should.

especially if that only means funding relatively cheap clean needle programs, so that the addicts can live long enough to get clean.

it doesn't.

[skarlorn]

*massages the melon*

[maskedmelon]

lol, he not irking me too much cus I know he's not serious ^^ ty though


*melts*

[Lemonhead]

We seem to view this problem as "junkies" crawling the streets and alleys. This is simply a myth. The great majority are (semi)functioning adults, even many heroin addicts. They are your coworkers, your athlete heroes, your neighbors, your family. And I promise you, you won't know, even those close to you. It's a really easy addiction to hide for a long time. (maybe not shooting up, but most aren't doing that)

There are more deaths from prescription opiods than from street opiods. But deaths are only the tip of the spear. This addiction digs deeper into the soul than you can imagine (pot? what?). And coming out of it is NOT just a week or 2 of withdrawal.

It is a battle to take your mind back and the Demon does not give up for a long, long time, if ever. Do opiates long enough (especially addictively), and it rewrites what it means to be a mammal, much less human. All pleasure, reward, motivation, lust, love gets tied to the Beast and removed from all other action.

It takes a lot of work and a lot of self-awareness (like only an addict can truely experience in some ways) to re-write the reward system in the brain. The longer away from reality, the longer the re-write takes. That's why the solutions are not simple, and why they go back 90% of the time. (PS. I volunteer in this field some and obviously have some experience)

Add: And all addictions have some element of this. It's just that opiates are just so effective at mimicking pure joy, but any drug can have similar struggles.

[Lulz~Sect]

tragically accurate

+1

[JurisDictum]

We seem to view this problem as "junkies" crawling the streets and alleys. This is simply a myth. The great majority are (semi)functioning adults, even many heroin addicts. They are your coworkers, your athlete heroes, your neighbors, your family. And I promise you, you won't know, even those close to you. It's a really easy addiction to hide for a long time. (maybe not shooting up, but most aren't doing that)

There are more deaths from prescription opiods than from street opiods. But deaths are only the tip of the spear. This addiction digs deeper into the soul than you can imagine (pot? what?). And coming out of it is NOT just a week or 2 of withdrawal.

It is a battle to take your mind back and the Demon does not give up for a long, long time, if ever. Do opiates long enough (especially addictively), and it rewrites what it means to be a mammal, much less human. All pleasure, reward, motivation, lust, love gets tied to the Beast and removed from all other action.

It takes a lot of work and a lot of self-awareness (like only an addict can truely experience in some ways) to re-write the reward system in the brain. The longer away from reality, the longer the re-write takes. That's why the solutions are not simple, and why they go back 90% of the time. (PS. I volunteer in this field some and obviously have some experience)

Add: And all addictions have some element of this. It's just that opiates are just so effective at mimicking pure joy, but any drug can have similar struggles.

That's a very good point. But the article on the OP was more about addressing seemingly hopeless junkies that can't hold down jobs (or jobs that are well-enough paying) and support their addiction through crime and other shitty behavior. Giving these people enough to get through the day sometimes -- generally over a long period of time -- will give them enough breathing room to become a more functional addict like you describe above.

Eventually -- sometimes due to age, enough personal work on themselves, and changes occuring in their life -- some of these people become 100% sober...or perhaps just become begin potheads.

[loramin]

it's not about freebies, lor. it's about being an implement of suffering. I have three questions for you:

1. do you believe suffering is good?
2. do you believe that suffering should be minimized?
3. do you understand that safe injection sites subsidize suffering?

Excellent questions.

I only eat grass-fed/free-range meat because I believe that factory farming causes unnecessary suffering, so that answers #1. However I also have nothing against killing animals, even though that obviously involves some suffering, so clearly I'm in favor of minimizing suffering when it can't be eliminated completely (#2).

But then you have #3, and no I do not understand that safe injection sites subsidize suffering. Drug addicts don't think "gee, I could be addicted to smack today, but I'm out of clean needles ... well, I guess I better sober up". What they'll actually say is "I'm out of clean needles, guess I'll use a dirty one." And without a doubt dirty needles lead to disease, and disease leads to suffering.

So back at you: do you understand that not giving addicts access to clean needles means they will get diseases and suffer?

[Lemonhead]

That's a very good point. But the article on the OP was more about addressing seemingly hopeless junkies that can't hold down jobs (or jobs that are well-enough paying) and support their addiction through crime and other shitty behavior. Giving these people enough to get through the day sometimes -- generally over a long period of time -- will give them enough breathing room to become a more functional addict like you describe above.

Eventually -- sometimes due to age, enough personal work on themselves, and changes occuring in their life -- some of these people become 100% sober...or perhaps just become begin potheads.

That's also a good point. I am off topic a bit. I just wanted people to get a feel for this addiction a bit.

As far the type of person who shoots up in the street, you know, being from a smaller town, I really don't know them, but I'd imagine many of them started as the more benign addict. Or they are people with severe mental disorders. Or they were just living shitty lives and made them shittier.

I have never met an addict who blames society or "their disease" or anyone else. They all blame themselves and it is, in fact, their fault. Accepting full responsibility is very important to healing. It is not like cancer. It is a disease but of a different kind. But that doesn't mean we can't have compassion. That doesn't mean we shouldn't help. True strength is seeing ourselves in the most deplorable.

Anyways, to actually get on topic, I think these places (ideally) are a way to reach out to the deepest of addicts, to try to push them into sub/methadone treatment. Now, replacement therapy is no panacea and not right for everyone, but it can be hope for those most deeply entrenched. It allows someone to stabilize and start working on underlying causes. Or they can just stay on it forever if need be, especially suboxone, as it has a ceiling effect and overdose is virtually impossible. A very normal life can be lived on it.

[AzzarTheGod]

not planning on clicking hope yall agree

[AzzarTheGod]

this post moved your postcount from 420 to 421. sorry you lost

its a gottem

[skarlorn]

Smoke weed and MuRdEr

[Lemonhead]

Smoke weed and MuRdEr

Yo, which persona r we supposed to display here? Forumquest is so complex!

And to answer your question: depends on the strain.

[skarlorn]

Yo, which persona r we supposed to display here? Forumquest is so complex!

And to answer your question: depends on the strain.

You ask the right questions. I have high ( ;) ) hopes for u

[Lemonhead]

You ask the right questions. I have high ( ;) ) hopes for u

/blush

[Lulz~Sect]

high apple pie in the sky hopes

[Lemonhead]

Idk for sure but legalizing it could be a solution of sorts. I always found opiates to kill pain by just making you feel better about everything. Weed can do that.

Opiates loose their efficacy over time, weed doesn't. And then your dealer only has weed and booze and nuclear weapons.

[JurisDictum]

Idk for sure but legalizing it could be a solution of sorts. I always found opiates to kill pain by just making you feel better about everything. Weed can do that.

Opiates loose their efficacy over time, weed doesn't. And then your dealer only has weed and booze and nuclear weapons.

THC traps serotonin in the brain. That's mostly what people like/addict to (CBD weed doesnt get you "high" unless there is THC in it...you can feel a little buzz of high end CBD concentrate though). There might be some other chemicals that hit people a certain way involved too...but these are big ones we know about.

Anyway most stoners go for High THC and little to no CBD in their weed. They smoke dabs, flower, or both. And what does is gives your brain a bunch of serotonin.

The only other way to get serotonin I'm aware of is through social esteem and intense exercise. So if your a loser that doesn't work out your going to love weed. Or if you have some kind of serotonin problem because your childhood sucked...maybe some genetic influence obviously.

I honestly think people put the chicken before the egg on the "loser = because they smoke weed" argument. It's more like they were god damn miserble because life wasn't working out well so they develope an addiction to weed.

Opiates are more about Oxytocin is my understanding -- the love chemical. So its for the REALLY fucked up among us that love that shit. If you never really experienced a the feeling of being loved -- heroin is going to be far more amazing than any life experience you can have while not high most likely.

Disclaimer: I don't actually know what I'm talking about. This is just my understanding. Here's the though....a doctors probably don't what their talking about either...there has been so much propaganda and stupidity in the illegal drug research field that you get some real stupid opinions from otherwise smart people.

[Pokesan]

THC traps serotonin in the brain. That's mostly what people like/addict to (CBD weed doesnt get you "high" unless there is THC in it...you can feel a little buzz of high end CBD concentrate though). There might be some other chemicals that hit people a certain way involved too...but these are big ones we know about.

Anyway most stoners go for High THC and little to no CBD in their weed. They smoke dabs, flower, or both. And what does is gives your brain a bunch of serotonin.

The only other way to get serotonin I'm aware of is through social esteem and intense exercise. So if your a loser that doesn't work out your going to love weed. Or if you have some kind of serotonin problem because your childhood sucked...maybe some genetic influence obviously.

I honestly think people put the chicken before the egg on the "loser = because they smoke weed" argument. It's more like they were god damn miserble because life wasn't working out well so they develope an addiction to weed.

Opiates are more about Oxytocin is my understanding -- the love chemical. So its for the REALLY fucked up among us that love that shit. If you never really experienced a the feeling of being loved -- heroin is going to be far more amazing than any life experience you can have while not high most likely.

Disclaimer: I don't actually know what I'm talking about. This is just my understanding. Here's the though....a doctors probably don't what their talking about either...there has been so much propaganda and stupidity in the illegal drug research field that you get some real stupid opinions from otherwise smart people.

piter gulag?
vladimir buttrape
dimitre slip'n'ass
mikhail from jail


let me know if these resonate

[Lulz~Sect]

https://i.imgur.com/ZLK30Pv.jpg

[mickmoranis]

It’s great to see some libtards doing something for once and using the rights the forefathers founded this nation to protect to finally do something instead of just crying about other people doing it first. Let’s see if any other libturd states follow suit.

Wow this post is ten pages? I’m replying to OP. Idk wtf you sickos been talking bout time to have a read.

[mickmoranis]

Oh that's just what I say to any link I don't click.

Well lol at this exchange

[Patriam1066]

https://i.imgur.com/ZLK30Pv.jpg

LOL

[mickmoranis]

When I was 24 -- I was arrested for "unlawful manufacture of marijuana"

This is what I looked like when I was 24:

9424

This was a Class A felony...and even though I was unlikely to get the book thrown at me ... If I was convicted I'd get AT LEAST 3 months in prison...that assumes they would let me out for good behavior.

So I'm thinking "wow I might actually get raped." I'm somewhere between 6'2'' and 6'3''...But I was skinny as shit and kind of a gaming nerd shut in. I was at very least -- in for an ass kicking.

When I got off on home detention..the 40 year old woman helping process the money looked at me right side-wise as I was leaving and said

"I'm glade it worked out"

And I am too. Because no matter how much pot I grew...I really wasn't prison material.

So anyway you can't expunge class A felonies...Recently its now been considered class C so I'm waiting on an expungement to go through (which costed $1300).

My arrest and conviction for growing pot has had zero positive impact on me, my family or society at large. In fact, it made shit a lot worse for me and them. I did stop smoking pot temporarily...because I really didn't want my 3 years probation expanded any further.

Then I sparked up when I got the letter in the mail that I was no longer on probation.

Some of the guys I know are now millionaires because they didn't have someone rat them out and ruin their god damn business a few years before it was all god damn legal anyway.

Once you been through that...you don't like cops anymore. It's not really rational -- its just how it goes. You don't feel like you owe society a god damn thing. You don't care about normal conservative people as much anymore -- because those idiots passed the laws put in jail and did zero good for society.

I pay lot less tax now then I did I might add. Buy a lot less stuff. And have a great deal less faith in capitalism. I don't know any wealthy people that didn't:

A) come from wealth

B) try to break the rules to get ahead like I did

Maybe they are out there...good for them...whatever. Its clearly not that common or to be expected. I hear claims all the time about "this guy had nothing"...you'll find when you look into it that they had a great deal going for them even if they didn't come from an upper class family.

Which is fine...we can't all be winners. But maybe society doesn't need to treat the middle/working class like their losers. Or they might just do something stupid.

You are funny being a socialist but then ranting about the government and being a victim of overreacting bureaucracy. You should watch Waco then read up on ruby ridge and then maybe get caught up on the Origon bird sanctuary story a few years back.

You say you don’t like conservatives, but you sound like actually you might like the farthest right, seperatists or at the least constitutionalists.

[JurisDictum]

You say you don’t like conservatives, but you sound like actually you might like the farthest right, seperatists or at the least constitutionalists.

What like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBLdQ1a4-JI) guy?

[mickmoranis]

What like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBLdQ1a4-JI) guy?

That is amazing

[maskedmelon]

Excellent questions.

I only eat grass-fed/free-range meat because I believe that factory farming causes unnecessary suffering, so that answers #1. However I also have nothing against killing animals, even though that obviously involves some suffering, so clearly I'm in favor of minimizing suffering when it can't be eliminated completely (#2).

But then you have #3, and no I do not understand that safe injection sites subsidize suffering. Drug addicts don't think "gee, I could be addicted to smack today, but I'm out of clean needles ... well, I guess I better sober up". What they'll actually say is "I'm out of clean needles, guess I'll use a dirty one." And without a doubt dirty needles lead to disease, and disease leads to suffering.

So back at you: do you understand that not giving addicts access to clean needles means they will get diseases and suffer?

of course. how do you not understand that addiction causes suffering though? and how do you not see safe injection sites as supporting addiction? they are an accessory in the act.

safe injection sites curtail potential symptoms, while supporting the illness. it perpetuates long term suffering and the conditions leading the problems it seeks to minimize. how is that rational or moral?

[Lhancelot]

We seem to view this problem as "junkies" crawling the streets and alleys. This is simply a myth. The great majority are (semi)functioning adults, even many heroin addicts. They are your coworkers, your athlete heroes, your neighbors, your family. And I promise you, you won't know, even those close to you. It's a really easy addiction to hide for a long time. (maybe not shooting up, but most aren't doing that)

There are more deaths from prescription opiods than from street opiods. But deaths are only the tip of the spear. This addiction digs deeper into the soul than you can imagine (pot? what?). And coming out of it is NOT just a week or 2 of withdrawal.

It is a battle to take your mind back and the Demon does not give up for a long, long time, if ever. Do opiates long enough (especially addictively), and it rewrites what it means to be a mammal, much less human. All pleasure, reward, motivation, lust, love gets tied to the Beast and removed from all other action.

It takes a lot of work and a lot of self-awareness (like only an addict can truely experience in some ways) to re-write the reward system in the brain. The longer away from reality, the longer the re-write takes. That's why the solutions are not simple, and why they go back 90% of the time. (PS. I volunteer in this field some and obviously have some experience)

Add: And all addictions have some element of this. It's just that opiates are just so effective at mimicking pure joy, but any drug can have similar struggles.

I really liked this post. agree with it. ^

These centers don't enable the drug users, not one bit. The drug addicts are going to continue the drug use whether a center is giving out free needles or not.

To get an addict off drugs it will take more than simply getting them through the withdrawal stage, it requires proper socialization of the person, re-wiring their brain by changing life habits not just removing the drugs from their life.

There are programs that do just this too, halfway houses. At best in my city halfway houses seem to be half-ass attempts to help drug addicts get off drugs and learn new living habits that would make it so they are less likely to go back to drugs.

Maybe there are some good ones out there, but all the men I talked to told me their halfway houses were corrupt and dysfunctional and I believe it seeing how many of them are still addicts and ending up back in jail.

If our country really wanted to get people off heroin and cocaine, I am sure people much smarter than me could figure out ways to implement social programs that actually worked.

Instead, we have this mentality where we think drug addiction goes hand in hand with criminality and drug addicts typically land in jail, where they should be. I don't agree with this.

Once in the correctional system, the chances for a drug addict to rewire their brains and get off the drugs for good is highly unlikely. Jail and the programs involved with jails are not working.

[loramin]

of course. how do you not understand that addiction causes suffering though? and how do you not see safe injection sites as supporting addiction? they are an accessory in the act.

safe injection sites curtail potential symptoms, while supporting the illness. it perpetuates long term suffering and the conditions leading the problems it seeks to minimize. how is that rational or moral?

Again, no addict has ever thought "I'm out of clean needles, guess I'll stop being an addict". Maybe in fantasy land closing clean needle clinics makes people stop being addicts, but in reality the simple truth is that addicts are going to be addicts with or without needle clinics. The ONLY difference the clinics make is in determining whether those addicts get diseases.

Please, show me ANY evidence that clinics result in higher addiction rates, or that eliminating them reduces addiction. If you can it genuinely might change my opinion and make me believe you.

I won't hold my breath though, as whatever you find would have to contradict both the World Health Organization and the American Medical Association ...

A comprehensive 2004 study by the World Health Organization (WHO) found a "compelling case that NSPs substantially and cost effectively reduce the spread of HIV among IDUs and do so without evidence of exacerbating injecting drug use at either the individual or societal level. WHO's findings have also been supported by the American Medical Association (AMA), which in 2000 adopted a position strongly supporting NSPs when combined with addiction counseling"

[Patriam1066]

Hate to agree with loramin and cecily but they're right on this topic. I don't want to pay for hepatitis treatments for fuckheads.

[maskedmelon]

Again, no addict has ever thought "I'm out of clean needles, guess I'll stop being an addict". Maybe in fantasy land closing clean needle clinics makes people stop being addicts, but in reality the simple truth is that addicts are going to be addicts with or without needle clinics. The ONLY difference the clinics make is in determining whether those addicts get diseases.

Please, show me ANY evidence that clinics result in higher addiction rates, or that eliminating them reduces addiction. If you can it genuinely might change my opinion and make me believe you.

I won't hold my breath though, as whatever you find would have to contradict both the World Health Organization and the American Medical Association ...

you ignored my questions, but it is obvious that addiction breeds suffering and safe injection sites subsidize addiction. im not interested in providing evidence for claims i haven't made or endorsed. the issue is in promoting addiction and selling it as such something praiseworthy because they are unwilling to sacrifice anything to actually solve the problem.

since you enjoy mischaracterizing arguments with bogus analogies, what you are effectively saying is, "well, I don't understand or give a shit about how these people or their families or friends feel and therefore have no interest in actually remedying their situation, so I'll just do "what i can" to ensure this particular misery endures while pretending I've furnished aid, elevating my own sense of self worth and superiority in doing so."

this is actually the reason why i respect barkingturtle's position on veganism even though i dont entirely agree with it. he actually changes the world for affected individuals. He sacrifices his time and resources to provide a better life for them rather than delivering organic chicken feed to slaughter houses or writing a $20 check for someone else to do it.

i guess another way of looking at the issue of safe injection sites is providing clean saws and medical aid to people who enjoy removing their own limbs. At least they won't get infection or die!

[Pokesan]

hear that loramin? if you don't personally solve the opioid crisis, you're a hypocrite

[maskedmelon]

hear that loramin? if you don't personally solve the opioid crisis, you're a hypocrite

no, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and would prefer to instead stuff it in a box and watch while it metastizes, "Sure glad that ain't me. I've done my part though!"

[Pokesan]

no, the problem is that nobody gives a fuck and would prefer to instead stuff it in a box and watch while it metastizes, "Sure glad that ain't me. I've done my part though!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXB-5MbKBgs

[skarlorn]

Earlier, I said "turn em into bologna."

I remediate that statement.

TURN EM INTO LASAGNA

[maskedmelon]

it is exactly that sort of apathy and sense of helplessness that breeds the disease this
is rooted in :c

[Pokesan]

it is exactly that sort of apathy and sense of helplessness that breeds the disease this
is rooted in :c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B35vsgBzMh4

[JurisDictum]

MM, are you suggesting we give all the heroin addicts a overbearing life couch like Joe Pesci:

https://youtu.be/HXHj8pJKfqg?t=28

?

[skarlorn]

no, I'm suggesting we

1) ROUND EM UP

2) TURN EM INTO MEAT PASTE

3) COOK EM IN LASAGNA

4) FEED TO PIGS

5) EAT THE PIGS

[Whirled]

Drugs r bad, mkay?

[maskedmelon]

MM, are you suggesting we give all the heroin addicts a overbearing life couch like Joe Pesci:

https://youtu.be/HXHj8pJKfqg?t=28

?

lol, something liek that. maybe a bit less abrasive though depending on the individual. tbh though, it would take a network of people and measure of Liberty surrendered by the addict to help them reshape their world instead of setting them in a corner and walking away.

[maskedmelon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B35vsgBzMh4

sorry, I'll shut up. skarlorn and JD are fixing the thread ^^

[Pokesan]

sorry, I'll shut up. skarlorn and JD are fixing the thread ^^

sorry, you can do what you want. i just snapped at seeing the 'kindness is cruelty' shtick for the 1000th time :mad:

[maskedmelon]

sorry, you can do what you want. i just snapped at seeing the 'kindness is cruelty' shtick for the 1000th time :mad:

it's not schtick pokes. actions have consequences :c no matter how right our intentions are. ive been on both the giving and receiving end of kindness that was more detrimental than beneficial. i don't blame you for being cynical though. it took me a good 8 years of thinking and talking on this to arrive at and be able to articulate my current understanding. the fact that it is depressing at times doesn't make it any less valid.

[Pokesan]

it's not schtick pokes. actions have consequences :c no matter how right our intentions are. ive been on both the giving and receiving end of kindness that was more detrimental than beneficial. i don't blame you for being cynical though. it took me a good 8 years of thinking and talking on this to arrive at and be able to articulate my current understanding. the fact that it is depressing at times doesn't make it any less valid.

you're smarter than that. i believe in you!

[maskedmelon]

you're smarter than that. i believe in you!

i wish i were lol ^^ i haven't stopped thinking about it btw and by 'it' i mean the general nature of right and wrong and what should be. i honestly wish someone would show me where I am wrong, but i generally can't even convey my position without people dismissing it as nonesense. it generally turns out how it did with loramin there where we agreed on the first two premises, but he ignored the third and went on to debate another point (and it was a valid point and not one I have overlooked). anyway, ty

[JurisDictum]

https://i.imgur.com/ZLK30Pv.jpg

You know, not to sound butthurt but prison rape is no joke.

Every time prison rape is brought up everyone makes a joke about it and its a real pain in the ass.

I don't want to sound too anal about it -- but we should really try to be more sensitive.

I'm not sure what it's going to take to penetrate through the tightly bound ideas people have in society about prisoner's "deserving it." Butt I was hoping opening up in my post could lubricate the process.

rectum.

[skarlorn]

You know, not to sound butthurt but prison rape is no joke.

Every time prison rape is brought up everyone makes a joke about it and its a real pain in the ass.

I don't want to sound too anal about it -- but we should really try to be more sensitive.

I'm not sure what it's going to take to penetrate through the tightly bound ideas people have in society about prisoner's "deserving it." Butt I was hoping opening up in my post could lubricate the process.

rectum.
Aux daps

[AzzarTheGod]

You know, not to sound butthurt but prison rape is no joke.

Every time prison rape is brought up everyone makes a joke about it and its a real pain in the ass.

I don't want to sound too anal about it -- but we should really try to be more sensitive.

I'm not sure what it's going to take to penetrate through the tightly bound ideas people have in society about prisoner's "deserving it." Butt I was hoping opening up in my post could lubricate the process.

rectum.

*m-m-monster daps*

[Lhancelot]

Is it safe to say people are fucked up and eventually die either naturally or by bad choices they made in life? That's something everyone can agree on I bet.

[loramin]

you ignored my questions, but it is obvious that addiction breeds suffering and safe injection sites subsidize addiction. im not interested in providing evidence for claims i haven't made or endorsed. the issue is in promoting addiction and selling it as such something praiseworthy because they are unwilling to sacrifice anything to actually solve the problem.

since you enjoy mischaracterizing arguments with bogus analogies, what you are effectively saying is, "well, I don't understand or give a shit about how these people or their families or friends feel and therefore have no interest in actually remedying their situation, so I'll just do "what i can" to ensure this particular misery endures while pretending I've furnished aid, elevating my own sense of self worth and superiority in doing so."

this is actually the reason why i respect barkingturtle's position on veganism even though i dont entirely agree with it. he actually changes the world for affected individuals. He sacrifices his time and resources to provide a better life for them rather than delivering organic chicken feed to slaughter houses or writing a $20 check for someone else to do it.

i guess another way of looking at the issue of safe injection sites is providing clean saws and medical aid to people who enjoy removing their own limbs. At least they won't get infection or die!

Melon you started this conversation out so good, engaging me with logic and reason ... but now you're just being nonsensical.

Needle clinics don't exacerbate addiction: both the WHO and the AMA found as much. Yet you keep going on and on about how terrible the clinics are making things, when that terribleness only exists in your head. Meanwhile, in the real world, the two biggest health organizations on the planet both found the exact opposite.

So look, all I'm asking for is logic and/or evidence that needle clinics actually make the world worse. That's all. Can you provide that, or are you just going to keep on asserting how bad they are simply because "Melon declares it to be true"?

[Pokesan]

he's stuck on a thought most had at age 13

no wonder j favors him ^^

[AzzarTheGod]

safe needle sites are also disingenuous given the quality of heroin. melons point stands for that reason alone if nothing else.

fentanyl epidemic warrants state manufactured morphine as a treatment to addiction no different than they do in Switzerland and Holland. you either go all the way or you don't.

there are moral complications of providing a needle site without clean opiates to use.

[AzzarTheGod]

I think you guys or whoever and the loveliest person on the board are having two different debates. The melon may have overextended by making her engagement in the wrong field. I think maybe she was taking whatever terrain she was given to engage with you on. This constitutes a blessing.



this might be SORTA true on surface anal-ysis but I prescribe some attention to between the lines to all of yall. our melon is a friend not for bullying. She's a sweet girl not really suited to combats even if she sorta engages in them by sometime getting frustrated & judgy about her partner's comparative lack of imagination or initiative or gentleness, real or imagined. manage these moods by refusing engagement while applying warmth & compression. she does deserve those.

anyway I didnt read really the thread. this is a net energy assessment gathered from skimming. Now all involved and others are encouraged to pat their melon's head and set chakra beams to 'soft'.

pat


*daps calm prevailing voice of reason*

[Lulz~Sect]

an elfpal from red recently OD’d a few days ago

the fent epidemic is real

[Pokesan]

melon likes to be bullied tho. she's squishy :3

[Lhancelot]

an elfpal from red recently OD’d a few days ago

the fent epidemic is real

Sorry to hear, Lulz.

[Lulz~Sect]

he’s lucky to be alive

[Lhancelot]

he’s lucky to be alive

That's good to hear, I assumed he died when you wrote that. Hopefully it's a lesson learned and he can step away from the drugs, particularly the type he OD'd on.

I don't know shit about fentanyl tbh. When we hit clubs it was speed, X, acid, microdots, heroin, coke, weed, and then K that was most popular and accessible.

[AzzarTheGod]

That's good to hear, I assumed he died when you wrote that. Hopefully it's a lesson learned and he can step away from the drugs, particularly the type he OD'd on.

I don't know shit about fentanyl tbh. When we hit clubs it was speed, X, acid, microdots, heroin, coke, weed, and then K that was most popular and accessible.

Oh we got all that today. Just fentanyl is in it now.

Can't even get blow anymore without risking your life because even the most elite still deal fentanyl on the side and the culture in drug dealing right now is to lace everything. You can forget about pills they seize 30,000-60,000 disguised fent pills every other week coming through Arizona and down from Canadian organized crime.

This ain't 1960. Rapper said it best "today the dealers worse than the users" facts.

[JurisDictum]

Can't even get blow anymore without risking your life because even the most elite still deal fentanyl on the side and the culture in drug dealing right now is to lace everything. You can forget about pills they seize 30,000-60,000 disguised fent pills every other week coming through Arizona and down from Canadian organized crime.


#richkidproblems

[Mead]

an elfpal from red recently OD’d a few days ago

the fent epidemic is real

Brings a whole new meaning to reds dead

[Ahldagor]

Oh we got all that today. Just fentanyl is in it now.

Can't even get blow anymore without risking your life because even the most elite still deal fentanyl on the side and the culture in drug dealing right now is to lace everything. You can forget about pills they seize 30,000-60,000 disguised fent pills every other week coming through Arizona and down from Canadian organized crime.

This ain't 1960. Rapper said it best "today the dealers worse than the users" facts.

More a reflection on how ditributors view their customer who act in a manner of how they view their customers...American business baby!, fuck the consumer.

[Lhancelot]

Oh we got all that today. Just fentanyl is in it now.

Can't even get blow anymore without risking your life because even the most elite still deal fentanyl on the side and the culture in drug dealing right now is to lace everything. You can forget about pills they seize 30,000-60,000 disguised fent pills every other week coming through Arizona and down from Canadian organized crime.

This ain't 1960. Rapper said it best "today the dealers worse than the users" facts.

So is fent being used as a filler, or what? Or are people od'ing on it as a separate party drug? Is it sold as a pill, liquid? Just curious how it's taken and is it a downer type drug?

[Pokesan]

So is fent being used as a filler, or what? Or are people od'ing on it as a separate party drug? Is it sold as a pill, liquid? Just curious how it's taken and is it a downer type drug?

fentanyl is like heroin but stronger, mostly prescribed for terminal cancer patients

but we all like to party

[AzzarTheGod]

So is fent being used as a filler, or what? Or are people od'ing on it as a separate party drug? Is it sold as a pill, liquid? Just curious how it's taken and is it a downer type drug?

Ordered by the kilo to US homes, flips for higher than a kilo of blow tenfold and 10 times as fast since they can sell fake pharmaceuticals with a pill press. It's just taking advantage of a market. Fent even makes its way into 2-CI and other research psychadelics. Prince, peep, and petty all did not intend to ingest fentanyl. They got fake xanax and percs according to investigators.

No one wants fentanyl except mutant losers who would huff glue to get a buzz.

New Congressional report our on the failure of CBP/USPS to stop international trafficking of fentanyl to anyone with a credit card. Go fetch.

[Lhancelot]

Ordered by the kilo to US homes, flips for higher than a kilo of blow tenfold and 10 times as fast since they can sell fake pharmaceuticals with a pill press. It's just taking advantage of a market. Fent even makes its way into 2-CI and other research psychadelics. Prince, peep, and petty all did not intend to ingest fentanyl. They got fake xanax and percs according to investigators.

No one wants fentanyl except mutant losers who would huff glue to get a buzz.

New Congressional report our on the failure of CBP/USPS to stop international trafficking of fentanyl to anyone with a credit card. Go fetch.

Ahh ok. That explains it. I was hoping to get a better understanding of it, how come it aint being explained in the media then?

They half mention it, but how it's getting ingested isn't explained. I'd think if it's being taken accidentally and causing these deaths the overlords would do something to stop it seeing it's a pharma drug.

In the local media they might mention it, but everything I have read makes it sound like these people are taking it purposefully.

[Lulz~Sect]

sorry kids, you can’t safely rail coke off tiddies any more

[skarlorn]

doing cocaine in america in 2018 is retarded. if u wanna do good coke go to south america. Hopefully u learn, like i did, that the pleasure of pure cocaine pales in comparison to a day spent in the company of someone you like, taking walks, eating good food, and chatting. Cocaine just strips the pleasure out of everything and convinces u its the only way to feel a smile.

[Lulz~Sect]

doing cocaine in america in 2018 is retarded

only wish I had quit sooner

[skarlorn]

paying 40-50 for a gram or 150 for an 8 ball of what you know, surely, is 10% cocaine or LESS, and that you're railing baby powder if you're lucky, laxative, acetone, numbing agents, or even shitty meth... jesus christ what a joke.

People need to wise up, stop doing coke until the market corrects and the dealers realize they have to provide a better product.

If I were to ever do cocaine again (I won't because I wised up to pleasure circuits), I'd rather pay $200 for a g of pure flake.

Sadly, no dealer in the states is getting more than 50% pure thanks to Mexican ScumLords. So you're gonna get stuck doing a pure-acetone wash on your 8 ball and seeing it turn into .3g

It's a bad drug, anyway.

[Lulz~Sect]

Utah’s chief law enforcement officer was deep in the fight against opioids when he realized that a lack of data on internet sales of Fentanyl was hindering investigations. So the officer, Keith D. Squires, the state’s public safety commissioner, created a team of analysts to track and chronicle online distribution patterns of the drug.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/05/nyregion/cyber-crimes-unreported.html?hp

[maskedmelon]

^^/~

[AzzarTheGod]

Ahh ok. That explains it. I was hoping to get a better understanding of it, how come it aint being explained in the media then?

They half mention it, but how it's getting ingested isn't explained. I'd think if it's being taken accidentally and causing these deaths the overlords would do something to stop it seeing it's a pharma drug.

In the local media they might mention it, but everything I have read makes it sound like these people are taking it purposefully.

because that would make it a harm reduction message. the mainstream media isn't interested in any implication like that.

you get the facts by going through several articles these days, not just 1.

The Prince articles were good because we had so many character witnesses and people in his life that came forward about his habit and tendency. So when the police revealed that Vicodin pills tested positive for fentanyl and were counterfeit, we knew Prince died accidentally like many others. He died in his elevator because he was trying to get help as his CNS collapsed. Even if he had naxolone the dose of fent in these fakes will kill you before you even realize whats happening. its an instant kill, no buzz or anything.

Likely what is needed is a new Congressional committee on Extremely Hazardous Substances. The committee's job would be to hold law enforcement and USPS/CBP accountable and distribute funds to programs for controlling Extremely Hazardous Substances. The DEA Sched 1 and Sched 2 classifications are meaningful, but this fentanyl and designer drug age calls for special data collection, interception, and tactics. None of which the DEA has the capability to do despite naming fentanyl as its #1 priority nationwide.

The media is just way behind the curve. The other month I was reading a dogshit article about how fentanyl is coming from Mexico and Canada, ignoring the credit card non-Darkweb non-fancy method of just ordering it directly from China which is the #1 method according to Congress.

Yeah Mexico and Canadian border do see a good amount of fent trafficking, but its mostly finished product such as fake pills. The raw kilos are a bigger problem. And raw kilos don't need to be transported through Mexican or Canadian cartels at the moment.

Some shit will be changing. John Kerry was working on it before Trump took office.

[Lhancelot]

because that would make it a harm reduction message. the mainstream media isn't interested in any implication like that.

you get the facts by going through several articles these days, not just 1.

The Prince articles were good because we had so many character witnesses and people in his life that came forward about his habit and tendency. So when the police revealed that Vicodin pills tested positive for fentanyl and were counterfeit, we knew Prince died accidentally like many others. He died in his elevator because he was trying to get help as his CNS collapsed. Even if he had naxolone the dose of fent in these fakes will kill you before you even realize whats happening. its an instant kill, no buzz or anything.

Likely what is needed is a new Congressional committee on Extremely Hazardous Substances. The committee's job would be to hold law enforcement and USPS/CBP accountable and distribute funds to programs for controlling Extremely Hazardous Substances. The DEA Sched 1 and Sched 2 classifications are meaningful, but this fentanyl and designer drug age calls for special data collection, interception, and tactics. None of which the DEA has the capability to do despite naming fentanyl as its #1 priority nationwide.

The media is just way behind the curve. The other month I was reading a dogshit article about how fentanyl is coming from Mexico and Canada, ignoring the credit card non-Darkweb non-fancy method of just ordering it directly from China which is the #1 method according to Congress.

Yeah Mexico and Canadian border do see a good amount of fent trafficking, but its mostly finished product such as fake pills. The raw kilos are a bigger problem. And raw kilos don't need to be transported through Mexican or Canadian cartels at the moment.

Some shit will be changing. John Kerry was working on it before Trump took office.

Yeah I always try to cross reference what I read by going to multiple sources but just never ran across any of this stuff about fentanyl.

When Prince died that really fucked me up. My mom would play his albums non-stop in the 80s so when he died it seemed like a part of my childhood died with him. Can't say that is a bad thing tbh.

Anyway, I appreciate all the knowledge you dropped on this topic. I didn't know Prince had Vicodin tablets that tested positive for fentanyl, that's crazy!

You'd think Prince would have doctors that provided him with prescription scripts for real Vicodin or hell, even better! Why would Prince be gobbling Vicodins? SMH.

[AzzarTheGod]

You'd think Prince would have doctors that provided him with prescription scripts for real Vicodin or hell, even better! Why would Prince be gobbling Vicodins? SMH.

He did. But he started his opioid use illegally in the 80's for stage fright. He had the worst stage fright anyone in the biz had ever seen. Was big on dilaudid back then I think he mostly stayed away from heroin and street drugs.

His recent run had him in rehab and detoxed. He was in "treatment" just before he died. This involves cutting off legal prescriptions. You can't prescribe opioids to an addict lawfully.

They found a stash of stuff and with fentanyl as the cause of death without having a fentanyl prescription, we know he exited rehab and scored some Vicodin trying to balance out what he thought was dope sickness. Goes that way a lot these days. Whether you start with a script or have access to prescribed opioids is irrelevant once you begin letting treatment steer you around helping lead you to bad decisions. There's always a panic followed by poorly obtained opioids through some shady dealer in an effort to get well.

[Lhancelot]

He did. But he started his opioid use illegally in the 80's for stage fright. He had the worst stage fright anyone in the biz had ever seen. Was big on dilaudid back then I think he mostly stayed away from heroin and street drugs.

His recent run had him in rehab and detoxed. He was in "treatment" just before he died. This involves cutting off legal prescriptions. You can't prescribe opioids to an addict lawfully.

They found a stash of stuff and with fentanyl as the cause of death without having a fentanyl prescription, we know he exited rehab and scored some Vicodin trying to balance out what he thought was dope sickness. Goes that way a lot these days. Whether you start with a script or have access to prescribed opioids is irrelevant once you begin letting treatment steer you around helping lead you to bad decisions. There's always a panic followed by poorly obtained opioids through some shady dealer in an effort to get well.

Ahhh ok that makes a lot of sense. Damn that's fucked up.

Speaking of Dilaudid, I had a kidney stone about a year ago and was given Dilaudid, respect to the power of that pain medication holy shit! That was the worst pain I have ever experienced, ever. I thought I was dying. It was the first one I ever had. That pain knocked me to the floor and had me praying to a god I never believed in rofl.

I drove myself to the hospital, then had to wait in a line at the "emergency" room, waiting for my turn to give my information. I couldn't even sit in the wheelchair they plopped me in while waiting, the pain had me crumpled on my knees on the floor.

This security guard came over and started to grab my arms and told me to get back in the chair while waiting, and I nearly exploded on him to get his fucking hands off me. It amazes me how protocol is to be followed at all times even when it's not possible to do so in places like that. I crawled back up into the wheel chair. lol.

I thought it was a burst appendix turns out it was a kidney stone! Stayed a night in the hospital and pissed the little jagged piece of glass-like stone out my pecker that morning. Glad I passed it within 24 hours or so.

[Lulz~Sect]

Makes you wonder 🤔 about the rash of celebrity deaths over the last 5 years

Versus party hard rock stars in their 70s still alive

[loramin]

Ahhh ok that makes a lot of sense. Damn that's fucked up.

Speaking of Dilaudid, I had a kidney stone about a year ago and was given Dilaudid, respect to the power of that pain medication holy shit! That was the worst pain I have ever experienced, ever. I thought I was dying. It was the first one I ever had. That pain knocked me to the floor and had me praying to a god I never believed in rofl.

I drove myself to the hospital, then had to wait in a line at the "emergency" room, waiting for my turn to give my information. I couldn't even sit in the wheelchair they plopped me in while waiting, the pain had me crumpled on my knees on the floor.

This security guard came over and started to grab my arms and told me to get back in the chair while waiting, and I nearly exploded on him to get his fucking hands off me. It amazes me how protocol is to be followed at all times even when it's not possible to do so in places like that. I crawled back up into the wheel chair. lol.

I thought it was a burst appendix turns out it was a kidney stone! Stayed a night in the hospital and pissed the little jagged piece of glass-like stone out my pecker that morning. Glad I passed it within 24 hours or so.

Here's an artist's re-enactment of those events:

https://i.imgur.com/jRcHLWJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jkaQsw5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gDJMFtc.jpg?1

[skarlorn]

Here's an artist's re-enactment of those events:

https://i.imgur.com/jRcHLWJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jkaQsw5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gDJMFtc.jpg?1
lol. literally an artist's re-enactment.

:)

I was on dilaudid last year after surgery. I was unimpressed because I didn't really get high. I just got sleeepy and YES it took away pain, but I wanted to get fucked up too.

Still, it was pretty addictive.

[skarlorn]

i was getting it piped in thru the IV tube dude. I felt a fairly intense, semi-pleasurable rush then just like blanket sleepiness.

I think I just don't have the personality that appreciates downers. Boring 2meme

[skarlorn]

well i had my fun with the psychedelics and stims.

opiates weren't my cuppa tee during my drug abuse days. (17-24)

[AzzarTheGod]

This security guard came over and started to grab my arms and told me to get back in the chair while waiting, and I nearly exploded on him to get his fucking hands off me. It amazes me how protocol is to be followed at all times even when it's not possible to do so in places like that. I crawled back up into the wheel chair. lol.



More annoying is that if you decide to leave you can't.

I developed a lifequest from an experience like that. I just want to be able to say I was admitted to a hospital and then checked myself out without seeing a doctor. Its going to involve a lot of anabolic steroid use and training, but eventually I'll be able to walk in and out of a US hospital and knock out 5 tryhards blocking the door.

There was a guy trying to stand up during a cocaine overdose. His heart was in terrible shape and he kept signalling it. They just treated him like shit and kept telling him to be seated despite the fact his heart needed to stand up. After that, the lifequest was on. I'll take an arrest warrant risk to prove a point that you CAN walk into a hospital and decide on your own that you don't need treatment and leave.

[AzzarTheGod]

oh i should mention its only city hospitals.

go out to the suburbs or a smaller hospital and you can do whatever you want. stand up, sit down, AND leave if you want. they dont care. the concentration camp shit is reserved for major city hospitals. .unlawful detention is unamerican.

[Jimjam]

WTF dystopia is this, do you guys live in Megacity One?

I thought that was just some stupid scribbles by some bored British punks!

[maskedmelon]

Melon you started this conversation out so good, engaging me with logic and reason ... but now you're just being nonsensical.

Needle clinics don't exacerbate addiction: both the WHO and the AMA found as much. Yet you keep going on and on about how terrible the clinics are making things, when that terribleness only exists in your head. Meanwhile, in the real world, the two biggest health organizations on the planet both found the exact opposite.

So look, all I'm asking for is logic and/or evidence that needle clinics actually make the world worse. That's all. Can you provide that, or are you just going to keep on asserting how bad they are simply because "Melon declares it to be true"?

hold the pony pal, i don't declare truth. i offered an argument and explained very clearly that I was looking for the error in reason. you may identify it by refuting the premise, or identifying faulty logic. your evidence only attempts to indirectly refute the conclusion in part. when evidence conflicts with reason, there is a problem. rather than attempt to reconcile the conflict by demonstrating get error in reason, you choose choose instead to attack me in the precise way I have just explained as bothersome. while it is funny, it very clearly establishes you as a troll or a fraud >.> in fact i am typically my hhis whole paragraph because you have succeeded in rustling me with your idiocy.

i don't know why, but for whatever reason i continue to believe you are sincere or at least closely identify with the arguments that you make. i think this is because there is very little humor in your posts, so they cannot be taken as parody. and the positions themselves are not the issue. some of them are valid. many of them have valid components.

the thing most offensive about this whole thing though is the idea that someone liek this might actually exist. as a tool, the idea of people liek loramin filling or trying to fill the role of an artisan is wildly depressing. loramin is petty, blind to his own faults and meanspirited. loramin values the ship and the sea with no regard for the wind.

[skarlorn]

*nods at the Melon proudly *