Minecraft creator says "Piracy" isn't theft

[Harrison]

http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-is-theft-ridiculous-lost-sales-they-dont-exist-says-minecraft-creator-110303/

I agree entirely.

[quellren]

He's stupid. Just like his opposition, he subtly twists his case to make his point.
The copying != piracy argument really only works in a limited manner.

What 'Notch' seems to overlook is that music, stand-alone games, (modded Xbox and PS3, hacked PSP's etc.) and digital 'stuff' that isn't growing, is a final product.
Say I saw a friend playing Morrowind. I really like it and want to give it a spin. I don't want to pay for it, so I torrent it from the net.
Notch says I just 'made more' of what already existed, so it isn't theft.
I say I now own every line of coding that would be on the install disc in the box at Game Stop. I, however, got it and never paid for it. Getting a full operation of a product, without Bethesda getting money for it is theft.
I want some more Metallica on my iPod, so I just torrent it and poof. Enter Sandman all day. Aside from the agreement (or not) that Metallica has enough money and they can shove it. I now can rock out and I never paid them for the product they produce. That's theft.
It doesn't matter that no one lost property in the act, it matters that I now possess something that is sold in stores, but I didn't pay for.

If Notch is happy that 30% of the people who have registered to play have actually downloaded the game from him, then good for him.
I will admit, that I DL'd minecraft during the famous 'free-play week' a few months back where his registration server crashed (or something) but I never really did much with it. I've played it maybe 6 hours total.
From the quick research I did, there doesn't seem to be any way to log onto a public server without the stamp of approval from Notch, which you have to pay for. So all this talk about how he's OK with people pirating his game is fine because those that do and then don't pay him to play online are like me, literally alone in an empty, under-developed world. essentially what he's doing is allowing the pirated stuff to be his demo, and then counting on the appeal to draw in sales.
It's not much different than the F2P games, DL for free, play all you want, but you can't have a horse, a house, or get into that ultra-cool endgame dragon raid unless you pony up some cash.

[guineapig]

"Copying" sounds more like "plagiarism" than theft if you want to get technical... but I know that this word doesn't really apply either. Plagiarism is only an issue if you are making money off another persons work.

For instance any band can play a cover tune of any other band at a live concert and not ask permission to do so (because the fans paid for the show, not for a particular song). However they can't put a cover song on an album without getting permission. So here you have a playing (with) another persons work versus selling another person's work.

In EQ terms I think "dupe-ing" would be the most appropriate term which is a banable offense.

Not sure what I'm getting at here. I like Minecraft and now I wish I was working on my castle instead of sitting here at work.

[Massive Marc]

On the article: Talking to someone who is part of the Pirate Party about copyright seems redundant. I wonder what line he's going to toe?

essentially what he's doing is allowing the pirated stuff to be his demo, and then counting on the appeal to draw in sales.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Seems smart.

It's not much different than the F2P games, DL for free, play all you want, but you can't have a horse, a house, or get into that ultra-cool endgame dragon raid unless you pony up some cash.

I really like this business model. It's working well with League of Legends and a few other popular games. You just can't sell POWER (anything that gives another player an advantage) or else your whole game is gonna shit the bed and be unbalanced.

I really don't know where to draw the line with copyrighting or pirating. I do so much of it now. It's common place for me to just go download the newest movie or music via torrent. I think at the end of the day companies will adapt with tricks and loopholes so pirating isn't as beneficial (not sure how you do it).

[Omnimorph]

Well fact is, piracy is such a widespread thing now, that the gaming industry has to adapt it's model. Being inelligible for DLC, online play etc. is incentive for people to buy it.

I mean there's a crap load of games i've paid for, played once or twice and then left them. Waste of money. Then there's a bunch of games i've initially downloaded, and liked so much i've gone and bought them (mass effect!)

I have no problem paying for games, but i'm in a position where i won't pay for a game i won't get my money's worth out of.

[Messianic]

I really don't know where to draw the line with copyrighting or pirating.

I guess this is how I feel, too. I feel like protecting people's livelihoods who make something that can be replicated so easily is a waste of time, like fighting against technology or nature.

It's true that people who use duped copies of stuff are acquiring something they would have had to pay for. But it's questionable whether any property rights are violated because someone didn't have to pay for your product and got it from someone else. Property rights only deal with negative liberties - i.e. I can't physically steal something from you, destroy your property, and a portion of that is intellectual property - I can't take your product and re-sell it and make a profit off your intellectual property.

But I just don't see where property rights themselves are violated. If doing something which does not physically steal something from someone else nor earn a monetary reward based on someone else's intellectual property is unlawful because it harms the creator of the product - is offering completely free medical services unlawful because it harms hospitals and private practices' ability to maintain employees, etc? Because offering such services for a prolonged period of time would harm that industry.

Is offering free food unlawful because it hurts farms, supermarket retailers, etc?

If something can be replicated (after creation) at no cost, I have trouble seeing why it deserves protection, as long as the first generation audience/customers had to make a purchase to acquire it.

But i'm torn. These are just my thoughts, not necessarily my hardened view...

[Harrison]

He's stupid.

http://www.zuguide.com/image/Daniel-von-Bargen-Super-Troopers.2.jpg

Jealousy is a stinky cologne.

A software dev himself, amongst uncountable others, believes that this witch hunt the MPAA and others are out on is fucking retarded...and he's stupid because you disagree? ...right.

[quellren]

http://www.zuguide.com/image/Daniel-von-Bargen-Super-Troopers.2.jpg

Jealousy is a stinky cologne.

A software dev himself, amongst uncountable others, believes that this witch hunt the MPAA and others are out on is fucking retarded...and he's stupid because you disagree? ...right.

Yep, you got me. I'm jealous.

Remind me what I'm jealous of?

[Massive Marc]

Yep, you got me. I'm jealous.

Remind me what I'm jealous of?

Not having access to a litre of cola.

[jcbbjjttt]

You're stealing someones product when you pirate software / music. It is 1 thing if the software is free to torrent it. But, it should not be stolen in this way...

[nalkin]

...and he's stupid because you disagree? ...right.

Isn't this the only argument you've ever made on these forums?

[Hoggen]

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/073109-tenenbaum-hit-with-675000-fine.html

and

http://www.startribune.com/local/82453582.html

say he's stupid. Granted these two are being fined for "distributing,"not just piracy, but there are laws. You can philosophize all you want, but if the courts say you are breaking the law, and you insist you aren't, you will likely lose.

[Massive Marc]

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/073109-tenenbaum-hit-with-675000-fine.html

and

http://www.startribune.com/local/82453582.html

say he's stupid. Granted these two are being fined for "distributing,"not just piracy, but there are laws. You can philosophize all you want, but if the courts say you are breaking the law, and you insist you aren't, you will likely lose.

1.9m for 30 songs. LOL.

[Messianic]

1.9m for 30 songs. LOL.

This is like people who grow their own weed being grouped with violent criminals.

[YendorLootmonkey]

If something can be replicated (after creation) at no cost, I have trouble seeing why it deserves protection, as long as the first generation audience/customers had to make a purchase to acquire it.

But i'm torn. These are just my thoughts, not necessarily my hardened view...

Put yourself in the shoes of the software developers...

Ever wonder why super-awesome big budget games like Mass Effect are so few and far between? Because there's a lot of cost put into making games like that, and if there's no guarantee on a return on investment because there are X number of first-generation customers that actually purchase it, and there are Y number of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc, etc generation customers getting the same enjoyment out of it without the same revenue generation...

... suddenly it becomes more difficult of a business decision to pump that much time and effort and money into producing a game.

And then you get shit games. Or buggy games that are unplayable until the 1.01 patch. And then games that cost $60 instead of $20 because the execs are figuring for every 1 game sold, 2 copies are going to be made for free, instead of 2 extra sales.

We brought this on ourselves.

If you decided to quit your job and work full time developing your own games which were distributed on some indie game site and the amount of $$$ you made was directly proportional to how many people clicked on your game and put in their credit card/pay pal info, you'd probably want some sort of protection against piracy too in order to maximize the number of people that had to click on "purchase" in order to enjoy what you just spent the last X number of months making.

I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this having adverse effects on the software industry. Unless you only look at it from the consumer's "i want as much shit as possible for free -- SUCK IT!!!!!!" side.

[moklianne]

Actually, I don't believe piracy is to blame for the sad state of computer gaming. Its because of compatibility.

Why is console gaming such a cash crop when the piracy levels are through the roof on them as well? More than half the people I know have modded xboxes, PSP's, DS's and PS3's. When you put a game in, it friggin works or it doesn't and you bring it back to the store.

With PC games there are tons of compatibility issues that can crop up when you don't have the specs that the game was designed on. Meaning, even having a decent video card these days isn't good enough since yours may have issues with specific games until they fix them in later driver releases. Not to mention possible chipset/cpu issues (look at the issues dual cores have with P1999 as an example).

The average non-technical computer gamer will try a game and when it becomes an issue to get it to run right or it doesn't look as good as on the box, they will give up on the game and return it if they can. Do you think they are going to try again anytime soon? They would rather get that PS3 game, because they don't want to be bothered. You don't have to install the game, no waiting, etc.

The issue with PC gaming is that there are too many different variations of hardware and the laziness of game developers to create their game to work correctly on as many as possible, instead of shooting for just the latest and greatest pieces of hardware/software.

This, in part comes from the gaming industry being governed by a select few that are massive and have strict deadlines. Remember when Vanguard came out? The release was horrendous because SOE pushed it out the door when it clearly wasn't ready. It could have been a great game with a huge population if they simply waited another 6 months. Its pretty much forgotten now.

Before PC's got really cheap, only people interested in them would buy them. They didn't mind futzing around with settings, drivers, etc for an hour to get something to work. For about a decade computers have been cheap enough that the average person could afford them. Unfortunately, they are the breed of people that want it to work the first time. Thus, the compatibility issue.

Sorry for the rant.
In short, too many people don't know enough about computers and have been burned before with a PC game. And Console games make it easy to actually 'play'. It either works or it doesn't. There's no need to worry about trying to make it work.

[JayDee]

Piracy derives from the word pirate and pirates are thieves.

See bros, I don't even have to have a well thought out argument or do any real research.

[moklianne]

Pirates these days are simply fishermen that don't like people in their waters.

[Japan]

the whole argument of whether or not it's theft will be moot relatively soon.

instead of developing a business model that actually works in the internet age, old-world IP owners are trying to use legal force to create an artificial marketplace. This strategy will only keep these garbage companies alive in the short term, until they innovate or innovators crush them. The only thing these businesses survive on is precedent from the long-gone days when IP was tied to a physical object. They'll die out and so will the luddite legislation that enforces their nonsense.

This business model is doomed to die, and "piracy" is guaranteed to continue flourishing. If ignoring the dark ages of post-industrial IP law and living in the future today makes you a criminal, I'm john fucking gotti and my grandma is tupac.

But really, why bother convincing people pirates aren't thieves? Evolution will take care of killing the last of the dinosaurs eventually, i'll take care of jerking off to "stolen" tranny porn right now

[YendorLootmonkey]

The model will be pay-to-play and you're running a game that's executed on a server somewhere... and sending updated images at 30-60 FPS to your TV/monitor while uploading your controller input back to the server all via broadband connection. There will be no compatibility issues, no hardware to buy, no ability to pirate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnLive

[Harrison]

the whole argument of whether or not it's theft will be moot relatively soon.

instead of developing a business model that actually works in the internet age, old-world IP owners are trying to use legal force to create an artificial marketplace. This strategy will only keep these garbage companies alive in the short term, until they innovate or innovators crush them. The only thing these businesses survive on is precedent from the long-gone days when IP was tied to a physical object. They'll die out and so will the luddite legislation that enforces their nonsense.

This business model is doomed to die, and "piracy" is guaranteed to continue flourishing. If ignoring the dark ages of post-industrial IP law and living in the future today makes you a criminal, I'm john fucking gotti and my grandma is tupac.

But really, why bother convincing people pirates aren't thieves? Evolution will take care of killing the last of the dinosaurs eventually, i'll take care of jerking off to "stolen" tranny porn right now

Hey, someone has a brain and actually understands a simple concept here!

[stormlord]

My opinion is if you expect software to be free then you're messed up in the head.

Software is engineering. Why would it be free unless through generosity or non-profit?

As for the 'free' games with the cash shops? I don't get the same feeling when I play a game for free that I do when I pay. When I pay I play harder and care more about the relationships I build. It's hard to explain. When you're on a p2p game you know that the others are paying. There's something about that that gives you confidence. I don't get the same feeling in f2p.

I also think the micro-transaction 'free' mmo's are gimmicky and too convenient for the accountants. Cash shops just make it all look suspicious to me. You never know how much more hte guy next to you is spending. It makes for an environment that's ripe for exploitation by the company. Without oversight or some kind of regulation going on they could easily abuse it. Think about it. It seems too many don't. There's no fixed sub fee like before. You can spend $1000 if you want in a few months. Just seems to me that if a company figures out how to hack your mind they will and there's no one to stop them. The cat is out of the bag.

If it were me I'd cap the spending per month to $50 or something. Or I'd have an arm of the government research gaming addiction and whether or not it's being abused.

[Gorgetrapper]

My opinion is if you expect software to be free then you're messed up in the head.

Software is engineering. Why would it be free unless through generosity or non-profit?

As for the 'free' games with the cash shops? I don't get the same feeling when I play a game for free that I do when I pay. When I pay I play harder and care more about the relationships I build. It's hard to explain. When you're on a p2p game you know that the others are paying. There's something about that that gives you confidence. I don't get the same feeling in f2p.

I also think the micro-transaction 'free' mmo's are gimmicky and too convenient for the accountants. Cash shops just make it all look suspicious to me. You never know how much more hte guy next to you is spending. It makes for an environment that's ripe for exploitation by the company. Without oversight or some kind of regulation going on they could easily abuse it. Think about it. It seems too many don't. There's no fixed sub fee like before. You can spend $1000 if you want in a few months. Just seems to me that if a company figures out how to hack your mind they will and there's no one to stop them. The cat is out of the bag.

If it were me I'd cap the spending per month to $50 or something. Or I'd have an arm of the government research gaming addiction and whether or not it's being abused.

Aside from all this, all those precious "pay to play" games like WoW, and current EQ, are doing what the "free to play' games are doing. They are charging subscriptions AND allowing people to purchase ingame items as well so they can get an edge (or to line the pockets of those greedy thieves).

[nafgan]

I walk into gamestop and buy a used copy of Mass Effect for the xbox 360 that developers don't see a penny of. Legal.

I pirate a copy of Mass Effect for the PC that developers don't see a penny of. Illegal.

???

[Uthgaard]

Consider how many people have purchased Titanium as a result of Project 1999.