playing4peace
11-20-2017, 05:02 PM
Let's start this discussion with some local (p99) history. This server, historically, has had one single guild dominating endgame content. The name has changed through the years, but the make-up of the guild has remained fairly consistent.
From TMO thru the fracturing of Rampage into Aftermath and Awakened, it's been the same people dominating this game.
And I do mean DOMINATING. Some classes could not get epic without paying <Top Guild> for at least one item/mq.
This attitude of dominance became fully manifest with the waking of the sleeper after a single Sleeper's Tomb raid. I remember hearing the tale of that... the person who woke the sleeper made some comment like "Ok. This server is done. Game Over." as he was waking the sleeper.
This attitude of the <Top Guild> isn't simply "we want to be server first". No, it's more than that, in a somewhat despicable way. It's not enough for them to "win", they have to also ensure that everyone else LOSES (thus, waking the sleeper).
This is just historical fact and I will continue forward from here with ... the Plane of Hate.
After waking the sleeper and fracturing Rampage into Aftermath and Awakened (both names referencing their part in ending any chance for anyone else to experience Sleeper's Tomb in its full glory), those two guilds resumed owning top raid targets, including but not limited to Innoruuk and, in 2.0, the minibosses of Hate. Farming the Ashenbone Broodmaster for the necro focus book became a booming in-game business for them. First, they started by making sure that every necro main in their guilds had a focus book, then anyone who had a necro alt of high enough level (46), then... anyone willing to PL a necro to 46 (even if they rolled it fresh from scratch never intending to ever play it). Then, they branched out to their friends on the game and recruiting people who wanted the book.
Then, the GMs saw what was happening (due to complaints from other guilds)... some <random guild> would be up there raiding, and AM or AW would appear, leapfrog the guild that was already there, and snipe kill the minis they wanted (always including the Ashenbone Broodmaster among others, and usually creating trains of mobs which disrupted the play of the guild that was already there), again DEPRIVING other guilds of the fruits of that zone (i.e.,, "not only do we win, but YOU LOSE").
Both guilds got banned for a while. I do not know the exact reason for the bans, but it did happen and it only seems reasonble that it pertained to, at minimum, disruptive game play - i.e., disrupting the play of others due to "accidental trains" when they were pulling minibosses. This was sometime around late December 2016 or so, IIRC. And, by early January, other guilds were having a chance to get to Hate, kill minibosses, and get the drops they desperately wanted and needed for advancement (Magi, Grandmaster, and of course, Broodmaster).
This was shortlived though. Because IT APPEARS to the community observer that A/A were determined to prove that they, and only they, would ever experience the glory of owning those loots. This post was submitted by Vianna arguing for a nerfed drop rate for the necro focus book https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269673
The therein referenced post (which I had to actually find manually) was a smug flame in response to a butthurt rant about how hard it was, back in the day, to get these drops -- specifically someone's response to said rant, basically saying "get over it".
However...
1) I reviewed the entirety of Vianna's post and it turns out that every one of the links in it go to the same place - A discussion of Velious Helm Graphics, with no mention of PoHate or Broodmaster. This frustrated me, but...
2) I took Vianna's word for it that these comments exist, so I went to find them myself. At Illiah's Everquest Bestiary on Allakhazam, I found the Ashenbone Broodmaster page and from there, the Encyclopedia Necrotheurgia page, and read every comment on both pages from earliest up to the end of 2001 (since that's the time frame Vianna referenced and the devs acted upon).
And I discovered that...
Yes, the 3 day spawn is accurate, but all of the comments available there on the referenced site indicate the drop rate was a normal sort of "rare", all of which seems to coincide with my memory of the time -- a timed spawn with an appropriate drop rate (not every time, but also not "never").
Here is a comment, from June of 2001, which indicates the drop rate isn't "near never", because it is a person who got the drop by default because the only other necro present already had his.
Link: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2288#m99323264438383
> Well first the bragging part. :) I went to Hate for the first time (my first planar experiance, in fact) yesterday and the only necros there where me and a necro that allready had their book. So if it dropped, it was mine. :) Anyways, I zone in to Hate and immediatly see "Ashenbone Broodmaster begins to cast a spell." woot! It's up. Anyways, long story short, we pull it. We kill it. I get my focus pre level 50 on my first planes raid. :)
> Ok now for the questions. Exactly how many levels does this book add to your pet? I had a 49 pet hitting for 57s yesterday and a previous post notes that the 53 pet hits for 57s MAX. I was under the assumption that the rogue pet hit signifigantly harder than the 49 pet (not counting the backstabs, of cource).
> P.S. Focused pets seem to run at, or near, SoW speed :) nice little suprise. I was running with jboots and my pet was keeping up easily.
And, another recorded drop on June 24 here: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2288#m99597175822222
That's 2 in one month.
Another post from Aug/Nov (the Nov reply to my Aug link here) which suggests that all minis have a chance to drop any loot from Inny's old loot table: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2288#m99705006690327
The takeaway from the posts I have linked (not part of any flame or rant) is that the book dropped back in the day. Rarely (on a normal scale of rare - partially/mostly because of the infrequency of the spawn - 3 days), but it did drop. And it dropped often enough that normal guilds could have multiples.
So, in context, it is clear that the OP (from the referenced comment on the ZAM forum) is smugly flaming someone who was ranting about how hard it was to get, AND it APPEARS that the person linking to and quoting THAT SPECIFIC MESSAGE had the ulterior motive of drastically nerfing that one specific drop - The Encyclopedia Necrotheurgia - by asserting (without linking to any actual post or comment about the actual drop rate) that it was "ultra rare".
And, sadly, from a community observer standpoint, it appears that because the poster abided by the tradition of "posting a link to 'proof'", the GMs/Devs (Haynar/Nilbog) didn't bat an eye... they just obeyed and NERFED THAT ITEM OUT OF THE GAME. To me, this reeks of more A/A "we win, you lose" and I do not know if the GMs/Devs realize they got pulled into it.
In truth (because I played back in the day), on the server I played, NO LESS THAN 6 Encyclopedias were looted (by Necromancers, yes) in the first year, and easily four or five rotted because no necro was present to loot -- because either no necro was present, or the necro(s) present already had theirs. Thus, the actual drop rate was, at minimum, anywhere from 10-12 per year (about one per month easily), if not more -- unlike the current drop rate of... basically never. And the drop rate grew in frequency in 2000-2001 (as indicated by the links I have referenced above), because Verant wanted this item in game.
This brings me to another, more important point about "the spirit of playing the original game as it was in 1999". The Verant developers NEVER made any drastic server mods (akin to this one - posted and enacted in a drastic nerf despite much opposing input). They always took great care in adjudicating the single event, AND making slight modifications to reduce the likelihood of recurrence. I do not ever recall any time (unless it was a security patch) that they made THIS kind of drastic change (from 1-2 drops per week to none, ever)... especially not based on ONE person's input. They discussed, evaluated, re-evaluated and discussed again before making changes to the game mechanics. Then they implemented a solution which served the larger community, not the will of the endgame raid guild (we win, you lose).
The followup activity of the Verant team is evidence that they did not EVER intend this item to be as rare as it is now on p99. In fact, just prior to hateplaneb, they made it so you could SPAWN minis if you camped long enough... a feature that they carried over into hateplaneb. Innoruuk being the only truly difficult mob to get due to respawn time.
Another semi-related drop (and process) for reference:
When Velious was released, Luclin was already well into development and PoP was on the drawing board... this was the state of things when Sony bought the rights to the game.
Sony released Luclin basically without change. Likewise with PoP (very few changes). Sony perpetuated the vision and will of the developers for 2 releases beyond where p99 stops. Thus, my other example...
The Holgresh Elder Beads. Yes, Verant removed them from the Elder Holgresh loot table in Velious, BUT... they did it full knowing that they were keeping it in game in the casino at the bazaar in Luclin (the very next expansion).
The above monologue is intended to help everyone (players, devs, and gms) see the bigger picture about the actual behavior, vision, and intent of Verant in 1999 - specifically that they never intended to nerf items completely out of game with very few exceptions: e.g., manastone, manarobe - deemed too powerful. But a pet focus item? No, sir. That item became more common until Sony made it meaningless with later expansions (it's still available in game to this very day, but doesn't work on later pets). And, they did their best to avoid serving the will of the end game raiders who had a tendency to exploit every opportunity to their benefit (we win, you lose).
So, I now implore the GMs and Developers of project 1999 to reconsider what they have done in Plane of Hate and come up with another, hopefully better, solution which addresses the matter of "single guild dominance" without simply removing an item from the game (or virtually so) - a solution which serves the larger p99 community. Because the current state is NOT the way it actually was in 1999.
The appropriate solution needs to embrace non-disruptive play (no leapfrog trains) while allowing a reasonable, if rare (normal rare), drop rate accessible to any guild willing to play respectfully within the overall p99 community.
The solution needs to also keep in mind that the guilds which were banned (A/A) currently have "snipe teams" parked and ready to get the minibosses they want within minutes of their spawns. Since Hate is not a typical "xp zone" (like KC or Sebilis), requiring everyone to be out of zone at the time of a spawn is not reasonable, but that doesn't mean there isn't a reasonable solution available. Plane of Sky could be used as an example - when <this guild> is there, the zone is theirs... or something similar. There may need to even be a schedule posted, similar to how PoSky is managed by the community. If it becomes "one guild per day" (or whatever), then the spawn and drop rates need to be adjusted to give every guild a reasonble chance for mobs/drops (thus, the devs would need to cooperate with the community on a solution).
Yes, this is a difficult issue to resolve and none of my suggestions (above) may be appropriate, but it is only difficult because p99 is stopping its content prior to the evolution of this zone in Luclin/Pop/hateplaneb. So, this matter needs to be given the kind of thought, consideration, and discussion that Verant gave to problems back in the day. And, hopefully, within a reasonable time (a couple weeks or so), we can see a better Plane of Hate - one more closely resembling the bounty of the 1999 version.
From TMO thru the fracturing of Rampage into Aftermath and Awakened, it's been the same people dominating this game.
And I do mean DOMINATING. Some classes could not get epic without paying <Top Guild> for at least one item/mq.
This attitude of dominance became fully manifest with the waking of the sleeper after a single Sleeper's Tomb raid. I remember hearing the tale of that... the person who woke the sleeper made some comment like "Ok. This server is done. Game Over." as he was waking the sleeper.
This attitude of the <Top Guild> isn't simply "we want to be server first". No, it's more than that, in a somewhat despicable way. It's not enough for them to "win", they have to also ensure that everyone else LOSES (thus, waking the sleeper).
This is just historical fact and I will continue forward from here with ... the Plane of Hate.
After waking the sleeper and fracturing Rampage into Aftermath and Awakened (both names referencing their part in ending any chance for anyone else to experience Sleeper's Tomb in its full glory), those two guilds resumed owning top raid targets, including but not limited to Innoruuk and, in 2.0, the minibosses of Hate. Farming the Ashenbone Broodmaster for the necro focus book became a booming in-game business for them. First, they started by making sure that every necro main in their guilds had a focus book, then anyone who had a necro alt of high enough level (46), then... anyone willing to PL a necro to 46 (even if they rolled it fresh from scratch never intending to ever play it). Then, they branched out to their friends on the game and recruiting people who wanted the book.
Then, the GMs saw what was happening (due to complaints from other guilds)... some <random guild> would be up there raiding, and AM or AW would appear, leapfrog the guild that was already there, and snipe kill the minis they wanted (always including the Ashenbone Broodmaster among others, and usually creating trains of mobs which disrupted the play of the guild that was already there), again DEPRIVING other guilds of the fruits of that zone (i.e.,, "not only do we win, but YOU LOSE").
Both guilds got banned for a while. I do not know the exact reason for the bans, but it did happen and it only seems reasonble that it pertained to, at minimum, disruptive game play - i.e., disrupting the play of others due to "accidental trains" when they were pulling minibosses. This was sometime around late December 2016 or so, IIRC. And, by early January, other guilds were having a chance to get to Hate, kill minibosses, and get the drops they desperately wanted and needed for advancement (Magi, Grandmaster, and of course, Broodmaster).
This was shortlived though. Because IT APPEARS to the community observer that A/A were determined to prove that they, and only they, would ever experience the glory of owning those loots. This post was submitted by Vianna arguing for a nerfed drop rate for the necro focus book https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269673
The therein referenced post (which I had to actually find manually) was a smug flame in response to a butthurt rant about how hard it was, back in the day, to get these drops -- specifically someone's response to said rant, basically saying "get over it".
However...
1) I reviewed the entirety of Vianna's post and it turns out that every one of the links in it go to the same place - A discussion of Velious Helm Graphics, with no mention of PoHate or Broodmaster. This frustrated me, but...
2) I took Vianna's word for it that these comments exist, so I went to find them myself. At Illiah's Everquest Bestiary on Allakhazam, I found the Ashenbone Broodmaster page and from there, the Encyclopedia Necrotheurgia page, and read every comment on both pages from earliest up to the end of 2001 (since that's the time frame Vianna referenced and the devs acted upon).
And I discovered that...
Yes, the 3 day spawn is accurate, but all of the comments available there on the referenced site indicate the drop rate was a normal sort of "rare", all of which seems to coincide with my memory of the time -- a timed spawn with an appropriate drop rate (not every time, but also not "never").
Here is a comment, from June of 2001, which indicates the drop rate isn't "near never", because it is a person who got the drop by default because the only other necro present already had his.
Link: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2288#m99323264438383
> Well first the bragging part. :) I went to Hate for the first time (my first planar experiance, in fact) yesterday and the only necros there where me and a necro that allready had their book. So if it dropped, it was mine. :) Anyways, I zone in to Hate and immediatly see "Ashenbone Broodmaster begins to cast a spell." woot! It's up. Anyways, long story short, we pull it. We kill it. I get my focus pre level 50 on my first planes raid. :)
> Ok now for the questions. Exactly how many levels does this book add to your pet? I had a 49 pet hitting for 57s yesterday and a previous post notes that the 53 pet hits for 57s MAX. I was under the assumption that the rogue pet hit signifigantly harder than the 49 pet (not counting the backstabs, of cource).
> P.S. Focused pets seem to run at, or near, SoW speed :) nice little suprise. I was running with jboots and my pet was keeping up easily.
And, another recorded drop on June 24 here: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2288#m99597175822222
That's 2 in one month.
Another post from Aug/Nov (the Nov reply to my Aug link here) which suggests that all minis have a chance to drop any loot from Inny's old loot table: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2288#m99705006690327
The takeaway from the posts I have linked (not part of any flame or rant) is that the book dropped back in the day. Rarely (on a normal scale of rare - partially/mostly because of the infrequency of the spawn - 3 days), but it did drop. And it dropped often enough that normal guilds could have multiples.
So, in context, it is clear that the OP (from the referenced comment on the ZAM forum) is smugly flaming someone who was ranting about how hard it was to get, AND it APPEARS that the person linking to and quoting THAT SPECIFIC MESSAGE had the ulterior motive of drastically nerfing that one specific drop - The Encyclopedia Necrotheurgia - by asserting (without linking to any actual post or comment about the actual drop rate) that it was "ultra rare".
And, sadly, from a community observer standpoint, it appears that because the poster abided by the tradition of "posting a link to 'proof'", the GMs/Devs (Haynar/Nilbog) didn't bat an eye... they just obeyed and NERFED THAT ITEM OUT OF THE GAME. To me, this reeks of more A/A "we win, you lose" and I do not know if the GMs/Devs realize they got pulled into it.
In truth (because I played back in the day), on the server I played, NO LESS THAN 6 Encyclopedias were looted (by Necromancers, yes) in the first year, and easily four or five rotted because no necro was present to loot -- because either no necro was present, or the necro(s) present already had theirs. Thus, the actual drop rate was, at minimum, anywhere from 10-12 per year (about one per month easily), if not more -- unlike the current drop rate of... basically never. And the drop rate grew in frequency in 2000-2001 (as indicated by the links I have referenced above), because Verant wanted this item in game.
This brings me to another, more important point about "the spirit of playing the original game as it was in 1999". The Verant developers NEVER made any drastic server mods (akin to this one - posted and enacted in a drastic nerf despite much opposing input). They always took great care in adjudicating the single event, AND making slight modifications to reduce the likelihood of recurrence. I do not ever recall any time (unless it was a security patch) that they made THIS kind of drastic change (from 1-2 drops per week to none, ever)... especially not based on ONE person's input. They discussed, evaluated, re-evaluated and discussed again before making changes to the game mechanics. Then they implemented a solution which served the larger community, not the will of the endgame raid guild (we win, you lose).
The followup activity of the Verant team is evidence that they did not EVER intend this item to be as rare as it is now on p99. In fact, just prior to hateplaneb, they made it so you could SPAWN minis if you camped long enough... a feature that they carried over into hateplaneb. Innoruuk being the only truly difficult mob to get due to respawn time.
Another semi-related drop (and process) for reference:
When Velious was released, Luclin was already well into development and PoP was on the drawing board... this was the state of things when Sony bought the rights to the game.
Sony released Luclin basically without change. Likewise with PoP (very few changes). Sony perpetuated the vision and will of the developers for 2 releases beyond where p99 stops. Thus, my other example...
The Holgresh Elder Beads. Yes, Verant removed them from the Elder Holgresh loot table in Velious, BUT... they did it full knowing that they were keeping it in game in the casino at the bazaar in Luclin (the very next expansion).
The above monologue is intended to help everyone (players, devs, and gms) see the bigger picture about the actual behavior, vision, and intent of Verant in 1999 - specifically that they never intended to nerf items completely out of game with very few exceptions: e.g., manastone, manarobe - deemed too powerful. But a pet focus item? No, sir. That item became more common until Sony made it meaningless with later expansions (it's still available in game to this very day, but doesn't work on later pets). And, they did their best to avoid serving the will of the end game raiders who had a tendency to exploit every opportunity to their benefit (we win, you lose).
So, I now implore the GMs and Developers of project 1999 to reconsider what they have done in Plane of Hate and come up with another, hopefully better, solution which addresses the matter of "single guild dominance" without simply removing an item from the game (or virtually so) - a solution which serves the larger p99 community. Because the current state is NOT the way it actually was in 1999.
The appropriate solution needs to embrace non-disruptive play (no leapfrog trains) while allowing a reasonable, if rare (normal rare), drop rate accessible to any guild willing to play respectfully within the overall p99 community.
The solution needs to also keep in mind that the guilds which were banned (A/A) currently have "snipe teams" parked and ready to get the minibosses they want within minutes of their spawns. Since Hate is not a typical "xp zone" (like KC or Sebilis), requiring everyone to be out of zone at the time of a spawn is not reasonable, but that doesn't mean there isn't a reasonable solution available. Plane of Sky could be used as an example - when <this guild> is there, the zone is theirs... or something similar. There may need to even be a schedule posted, similar to how PoSky is managed by the community. If it becomes "one guild per day" (or whatever), then the spawn and drop rates need to be adjusted to give every guild a reasonble chance for mobs/drops (thus, the devs would need to cooperate with the community on a solution).
Yes, this is a difficult issue to resolve and none of my suggestions (above) may be appropriate, but it is only difficult because p99 is stopping its content prior to the evolution of this zone in Luclin/Pop/hateplaneb. So, this matter needs to be given the kind of thought, consideration, and discussion that Verant gave to problems back in the day. And, hopefully, within a reasonable time (a couple weeks or so), we can see a better Plane of Hate - one more closely resembling the bounty of the 1999 version.