Rygar
11-10-2017, 03:59 PM
The Inception:
One of the first things I noticed when I came to P99 is how easy it was to interrupt NPC spell casters, especially at the higher levels, with just melee attacks. One of my most comical Kedge Keep memories on Live was going to kill Phinny with a group of guildies and we couldn’t kill the seahorses that completely healed (They were either magic immune or very heavy resists, no stuns would land). We had no large races or bashers in the group, so we had a problem. I was a human warrior, but luckily kept a shield in my bag for emergencies, everyone laughed at how our warrior needed to bust out a shield to interrupt the mobs.
Did we just not know about ‘mob push’? Or maybe, just maybe, was that dynamic different on live than P99..?
https://i.imgur.com/phKi5KD.jpg
The Hypothesis:
I will present evidence to back this up, but here is what I think is wrong on P99:
Push values on regular melee attacks are far too high or perhaps should not exist
NPC Channeling chances are extremely low and in some cases non-existent
There appears to be a ‘push distance’ that guarantees a spell interrupt
Here is how I think it should work after combing through a ton of posts:
Push values on regular melee attacks should be very low or non-existent and should NOT trigger a channeling check
Special Attacks such as kick / bash / slam are what should push a mob and have a chance of triggering a channeling check (as should knockback effects on spells. Normal bash rules still apply about being able to interrupt casting and by-passing channeling check)
There should not be a ‘guaranteed interrupt’ from pushing a mob, but rather just trigger a channeling check (which the mob can pass)
NPC Channeling should follow special rules and be extremely high
Appears that there is a break between ‘low level mobs’ having some weaker channeling than high level mobs (I think this is the same cut off where FD mem-blur is not guaranteed… Level 31+?)
Now, I’m aware that in our server era mobs should be casting lower level spells (no ice comet and such) and should be having extremely deep mana pools. Perhaps you chose to implement push as it is on P99 to compensate for the out of era fix to have NPCs be smarter about choosing which spells to load. I saw some other thread where Haynar was measuring some push values on either Live or another EQEmu and implemented here. Regardless, I still believe the NPC channeling needs a hard look as it appears to not be working properly as it did on Live.
The Evidence:
Keep in mind this is not a complete list, there is also a lot of contradicting information out there of people saying mob push works others saying it doesn’t or others saying it only had a chance of it working. After combing through it I believe the above Hypothesis is close to how it should be. In any event, it has been stated before that in light of contradicting evidence you would err towards the side of underpowered rather than overpowered.
Buckle up for a long read folks, here we go. I’ve tried as best I could to cut out irrelevant parts of the conversations:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/__jauvPF3po/rq5D3e-E94EJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/ddgxWeUdJbc/EsJlPXwMAyUJ
(Posted: 06/11/2002)
thread titled: Thank God. (Caster Mob Changes)
Copy and paste from:
http://eq.castersrealm.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4356
Source: Developers Corner.
As Alan's already said, the driving idea behind these changes to NPCs is to make them more interesting to fight…
…Originally, they were given exemptions to the normal spellcaster rules to make up for their shortcomings.
This is a dev comment just confirming what everyone knew, that spellcasters played by a different set of rules (not just spell-casting distances, but channeling checks as well). This is a 2002 post but is basically when NPCs got access to higher level spells and major NPC casting changes were being made.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/%22FIX$20THESE$20BUGS$20FIRST%22%7Csort:date/alt.games.everquest/YStZgg01gFE/TqpgppWvazEJ
(Posted: 2/23/2000)
thread titled 'FIX THESE BUGS FIRST PLEASE !!!'
5: NPC Rules vs Player Rules. Perhaps not really a bug but It does need looking at. Several things I have noticed are :
…
C: NPC casters hardly ever get interrupted. A player Caster has very little chance of getting a spell off when hit more than once but NPC casters can cast without interruption while being hit by 3 or 4 player tanks.
Further griping that casters never get interrupted despite being engaged by melee.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/insane$20channelling|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/ognbPSg-284/ePHWsZGl_2sJ
(Posted: 01/19/2000)
Thread titled: Bards: Cause and more cause :(
Pixie Strike: Using this against the Froglok Crusader had absolutely no effect. His eyes repeatedly glazed over but not once did this interrupt his healing; he resisted twice, but the rest of the time he was unaffected by it. I threw over 30 pixies at him. Not a thing.
Mobs have insane channelling skills, so don't expect miracles from this song anyway. Wait until you get to the plane of hate and see the clerics cast complete heal on themselfs while taking 3000+ hp of damage and numerous stun spells.
Youve seen a cleric cast complete heal through a stun spell? stun = interrupted casting. now if your saying the stun spell was resisted.. well, that has no effect on the channeling roll at all anyway.
I’m not familiar with this Pixie Strike, but apparently it had a hidden message the bard couldn’t see in which the mob resisted (looks like a mez), not sure if P99 is as unreliable. Rest of post indicates even raids had hard time interrupting CHeal mobs due to high channeling.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/%22Monks$20need$20to$20be$20able%22%7Csort:date/alt.games.everquest/ddgxWeUdJbc/EsJlPXwMAyUJ
(Posted: 10/30/1999)
thread titled 'Monks need to be able to interrupt casters'
Post 1: Add a knock-back ability to the flying kick attack.
Post 2: …the special attack already interrupts casters. I would have to try it again to be sure.
Post 3: …I've yet to beat a monk in PvP. Once that Monk gets in melee range… I can't get a spell off to save my life.;)
Post 4: That's strictly in a PvP environment, against NPC casters I've done upwards of 300 points in a single round only to have some cheeze goblin 20 levels below me drop a nice 200pt or more nuke on me.
Post 5: NPC casters cheat and so using sheer damage to intterupt them doesn't work.
Post 6: I don't think that it would be fair to the monsters if they had the same interuption rules as players
Post 7: Not fair to the monsters? HAHAHA! We've already got … mobs who constantly interrupt you just with basic melee while you can't reliably do the same to them
Post 8: …almost any special physical attack can interrupt casters. My little ranger … saves her kick until she sees him start to cast. I've got about an 80% success rate with that so far.
Post 9: It's easier to interrupt at the earlier levels, but at 40 I can hardly do it at all. I count myself extremely lucky to interrupt a caster after eight punches and a kick (with the long casting time and a sash, this does happen). You can see our whole group attacking something without stuns and the MOBs will /still/ cast through most of the time.
Post 10: That's probably because the higher-level critters have better channeling.
Typical of monks to complain they didn’t have a bash skill to interrupt casters, however some corrected that special attacks do indeed have a chance to interrupt, but on lower level mobs more than higher level. More evidence of insane NPC Channeling and that special attacks were the key to have a chance at interrupting (not regular melee attacks), even in a group setting.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/Qe7uZ0i9NRI/tW9sfdJfFIQJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/QMMw_mGGex8/stLpYuyDbhkJ
(Posted: 09/22/2001)
Thread titled: Whoa holy cow, melee test changes
Oh fuck no! Slam increases the amount of movement of the mob. Mob placement is one of the most critical aspects of killing ubers, push a dragon up a flag pole and you're almost garanteed to lose.
This post implies that regular melee attacks have no real push value on a mob but to avoid using SLAM skill because it moves the mob. Highly doubt a handful of slams would significantly add to push vs. the hundreds of rounds of melee being dished out every few seconds. This is what leaves me to believe that special attacks have very high push values and regular melee have extremely limited push values.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/interrupt$20complete%7Csort:date/alt.games.everquest/qlZjYofN3rQ/QpPPzC_iLQwJ
(Posted: 06/07/2002)
thread title 'NPC Casters'
NPCs also have amazing channeling skills. I find it funny that 3 people with swords and clubs beating on a mob for 10 seconds straight doing HUNDREDS of points of damage and the mob STILL gets a complete heal off pretty amazing.
All that aside, my biggest problem with NPC casters: Damn near fucking impossible to interrupt their spells usually. A mob SNEEZES on me and my casting is interrupted. 3 hits for 20+ and a kick between start and finish casting, and the mob still gets the spell off without even a "regains his concentration" message. :-/
I almost think that channeling is only checked if you move the caster from their original position. Since melee has a knockback to it, usually the target has to check.
And if you want embarassing channeling, a buddy was running a raid in the basement of Sebilis during the Kunark era. 18 people were pounding on a mushroom man that had CHeal, and the mushroom was able to get off CHeal on itself six times in a row.
I seem to channel through normal hits quite regularly. Bash, Slam, and Stun spells are what you need to interrupt a mob.
This is mid-Luclin era and even with AAs and upgraded weapons / levels melee attacks aren’t interrupting caster’s CHeal chains? This does say that melee has a knockback to it, but doesn’t exactly say which kind (kick/bash/slam? Or regular damage?), but regardless indicates it is just a channeling check to move the mob when knockback occurs, not a 100% guarantee to interrupt much like we see on P99 after a short amount of push. I find the second comment a bit ludicrous as 18 people should be able to simply out damage a CHeal at that point, but take it for what it’s worth. The final comment indicates that since he is able to channel through normal hits that is why NPC casters can channel through normal melee hits, best to rely on the special attacks / spells to interrupt.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/0V26BLTIddg/JGRVhYOMO8cJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/__jauvPF3po/rq5D3e-E94EJ
(Posted: 01/18/2003)
Thread titled: Interrupting Casters, Was Beginning to see why Bards Rock.
Push.
Melee combat other than bash, slam and (high level) kick will not interrupt spells, but if you can create movement in the mob through your hits, it will be interrupted.
I've *heard* about pushing mobs around with melee, and I've noticed it happen to me, but I haven't figure out what causes it, or how you can improve your chances of doing it. Is it an effect of high strength, damage dealt, hits connecting, the weapon type, high offense, high attack, high weapon skill, something else??
Getting a bit further out of era here but still good stuff, post claims that pushing a mob will interrupt a spell. Follow up post indicates this is some kind of mysterious thing that is unknown and not sure how to reproduce it, if it worked on live like it did on P99 then let’s face it, it would be OBVIOUS. Further leads me to believe that regular melee wasn’t the sole causer of mob push (and that P99 values are too high), but perhaps just the special attacks and spell knockback effects to trigger a channeling check.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/NQkLRBzBagI/STxXsxxeG58J;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/0V26BLTIddg/JGRVhYOMO8cJ
(Posted: 01/25/2004)
Thread titled: gating mobs
Conversation revolves around how to interrupt mobs that gate, as well as stun immune mobs like giants:
Actually, it's a team effort to keep a mob from gating. Enchanters/bards/necros can mana drain, enchanters/wizards/clerics/paladins can stun, warriors/paladins/shadowknights can bash.
Everybody else just hopes that does the trick. As a monk, I pretty much have to rely on luck for interrupts. To anyone that offers the suggestion to push I offer the anecdotal evidence that I have dragon punched (monk knockback proc) a mob all the way across a *large* room and didn't manage to interrupt it.
Yes if they don't stun or mez like Kael giants, all casters begin chain nuking as the MoB's health approaches 20 percent and continue till dead or gated.
Would think it to be completely obvious by now if you just get all the melee on the same side of a mez / stun immune mob and push it, even the monk says he needs to ‘rely on luck’ to interrupt, not the fact that he will push the mob with his fast epic fists to interrupt casting. I just don’t think that mob pushing was a reliable way to guarantee an interrupt on a gating mob and especially if that mob was immune to stuns, it had a channeling check but nothing as crazy as we see here on P99.
Also mentions he ‘Dragon Punch’ AA didn’t seem to matter on how far you pushed the mob, on P99 if you pushed it that far there was no way in hell it was casting successfully. I did read that Dragon Punch AA was a bit lame and almost never interrupted casters, but that would lead me to believe that mob channeling checks were not based solely off its current position, but only if a QUALIFIED attack / spell was executed on it (such as kick / bash / slam / knockback spell… perhaps normal melee could push but added no success to interrupting spell casting if only regular attacks pushed it)
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/QMMw_mGGex8/stLpYuyDbhkJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/NQkLRBzBagI/STxXsxxeG58J
(Posted: 02/06/2004)
Thread titled: BST pet push
There are two main methods to mitigate pet push.
1) use 'low push' procs, i.e. not Spirit of Wind, or others that push specifically to interupt casters.
2) position the pet in such a manner that it pushes mobs into a wall or corner, rather than back towards adds or other places you don't want to be.
As a beast, one of my 'pet bitches' is that often push is not coming from me, but from casters using stuns (which push)
Couple of things - first, mage water pets generate almost no push - they don't bash or kick. If you don't give 'em proccing weapons there is no push. The other thing is that, while pets don't push *more* than a melee, they are more tenacious - they immediately move up and stay engaged with a mob - melee tend not too.
With a water pet and my kitty on the back of a mob, I can hold a mob perfectly stationary with my BL tanking
The secret to dealing with pushy pets (and pushy PCs for that matter) is to get them all on one side of the mob. Not the front, not the rear, but the side. As they push the mob the tank simply edges a tiny bit in the opposite direction, adjusting his facing to keep the mob in front of him. The mob, and the PCs and pets pushing it, just circle round and round the tank. Rogues don't kick, so let them have the mob's back to themselves as kick and procs seem to be the main push culprits.
This post was a bit of a smoking gun for me. Indicates that a mage water pet has nearly zero push since the high level one does not Bash. Furthermore, with this water pet on a mobs back + his pet (without proc spells), he can keep a mob stationary (simply due to the lack of bashing it would seem). Highly doubt any mob on P99 would stay stationary with 2 pets behind. Further leads me to believe melee push values are way high here.
The final post in here also indicates that ‘kicks and procs seem to be the main push culprits’ and seems to indicate that Backstab for rogues does not have a push value (perhaps by design from the devs to not hinder a rogue’s primary ability). Furthermore, if rogues were all behind the mob, it would not work as they describe to push around the tank, rogue’s regular melee attacks would push mob over the tank.
http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-2758.html
Qaam Asutra
07-13-2007, 10:08 AM
Seems to be part a trend lately. Change push so that melee are helped, then nerf push on players so it doesn't help casters. It also doesn't help knights who are trying to channel in combat. With the new push changes we have NO way of interrupting casters anymore, grats paladins and warriors. wtb new bash or fear spell that can interrupt casters up to lvl 82 in the next expansion.
window
07-13-2007, 11:48 AM
are you implying you could interrupt npc casters by pushing them before the push change? cause that never happened.
http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-4125.html
Iwishi
08-09-2008, 09:36 AM
Interupts happen when the loc you are at when the spell finishes casting doesnt match the loc you were at when you started casting, or, you get stunned/bashed/kicked. A DoT will do nothing. Does not apply to NPCs
MortredSoulrend
08-10-2008, 05:37 AM
From personal experience (maybe im insane) But I see a massive difference in mob heals/cheals/spellcasting (thats not instant) being helped by pushing the mob. A mob where the group is all pushing from the same direction used to not be able to do shit. Maybe the push change some time ago has made player push a non factor. but alot of people I know still do it out of habit for some reason.
These are just much later era evidence, but thought they may add confidence to changes. No real time frames are given to their ‘old push’ methods, not sure how many iterations it went through, but thought I would just present it here.
The Conclusion:
Hopefully this was compelling evidence to make a change to NPC channeling. Quite frankly it is just far too easy to interrupt a caster currently. This could have great game changing dynamics for P99, it could make wizards that have knockback components to spells more viable to interrupting dragons who are trying to gate, gating dragons may just need to be fought on their spawn point, monks won’t be able to solo high level casters with any reliability and would group more, high level shaman’s may not be able to farm certain mobs that CHeal, Paladins and SKs have more utility with bash causing heavy push, people may want large races with Slam as opposed to master race Iksar… and most importantly, Enchanters will begin to use Mana Sieve on Vox and HoT wurms once again. The list can go on...
If a recycle server is to happen this would be a most welcome change, even with NPCs casting their high level spells it simply is too easy to interrupt them.
Thanks for listening, I welcome any discussion as this is just my theory and I could be wrong on certain aspects.
Perhaps the truth is in the middle where push only applied to your primary hand + special attacks, dual wield and double attacks ignored, could account for less push overall. Please share your thoughts, would love to hear them.
One of the first things I noticed when I came to P99 is how easy it was to interrupt NPC spell casters, especially at the higher levels, with just melee attacks. One of my most comical Kedge Keep memories on Live was going to kill Phinny with a group of guildies and we couldn’t kill the seahorses that completely healed (They were either magic immune or very heavy resists, no stuns would land). We had no large races or bashers in the group, so we had a problem. I was a human warrior, but luckily kept a shield in my bag for emergencies, everyone laughed at how our warrior needed to bust out a shield to interrupt the mobs.
Did we just not know about ‘mob push’? Or maybe, just maybe, was that dynamic different on live than P99..?
https://i.imgur.com/phKi5KD.jpg
The Hypothesis:
I will present evidence to back this up, but here is what I think is wrong on P99:
Push values on regular melee attacks are far too high or perhaps should not exist
NPC Channeling chances are extremely low and in some cases non-existent
There appears to be a ‘push distance’ that guarantees a spell interrupt
Here is how I think it should work after combing through a ton of posts:
Push values on regular melee attacks should be very low or non-existent and should NOT trigger a channeling check
Special Attacks such as kick / bash / slam are what should push a mob and have a chance of triggering a channeling check (as should knockback effects on spells. Normal bash rules still apply about being able to interrupt casting and by-passing channeling check)
There should not be a ‘guaranteed interrupt’ from pushing a mob, but rather just trigger a channeling check (which the mob can pass)
NPC Channeling should follow special rules and be extremely high
Appears that there is a break between ‘low level mobs’ having some weaker channeling than high level mobs (I think this is the same cut off where FD mem-blur is not guaranteed… Level 31+?)
Now, I’m aware that in our server era mobs should be casting lower level spells (no ice comet and such) and should be having extremely deep mana pools. Perhaps you chose to implement push as it is on P99 to compensate for the out of era fix to have NPCs be smarter about choosing which spells to load. I saw some other thread where Haynar was measuring some push values on either Live or another EQEmu and implemented here. Regardless, I still believe the NPC channeling needs a hard look as it appears to not be working properly as it did on Live.
The Evidence:
Keep in mind this is not a complete list, there is also a lot of contradicting information out there of people saying mob push works others saying it doesn’t or others saying it only had a chance of it working. After combing through it I believe the above Hypothesis is close to how it should be. In any event, it has been stated before that in light of contradicting evidence you would err towards the side of underpowered rather than overpowered.
Buckle up for a long read folks, here we go. I’ve tried as best I could to cut out irrelevant parts of the conversations:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/__jauvPF3po/rq5D3e-E94EJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/ddgxWeUdJbc/EsJlPXwMAyUJ
(Posted: 06/11/2002)
thread titled: Thank God. (Caster Mob Changes)
Copy and paste from:
http://eq.castersrealm.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4356
Source: Developers Corner.
As Alan's already said, the driving idea behind these changes to NPCs is to make them more interesting to fight…
…Originally, they were given exemptions to the normal spellcaster rules to make up for their shortcomings.
This is a dev comment just confirming what everyone knew, that spellcasters played by a different set of rules (not just spell-casting distances, but channeling checks as well). This is a 2002 post but is basically when NPCs got access to higher level spells and major NPC casting changes were being made.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/%22FIX$20THESE$20BUGS$20FIRST%22%7Csort:date/alt.games.everquest/YStZgg01gFE/TqpgppWvazEJ
(Posted: 2/23/2000)
thread titled 'FIX THESE BUGS FIRST PLEASE !!!'
5: NPC Rules vs Player Rules. Perhaps not really a bug but It does need looking at. Several things I have noticed are :
…
C: NPC casters hardly ever get interrupted. A player Caster has very little chance of getting a spell off when hit more than once but NPC casters can cast without interruption while being hit by 3 or 4 player tanks.
Further griping that casters never get interrupted despite being engaged by melee.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/insane$20channelling|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/ognbPSg-284/ePHWsZGl_2sJ
(Posted: 01/19/2000)
Thread titled: Bards: Cause and more cause :(
Pixie Strike: Using this against the Froglok Crusader had absolutely no effect. His eyes repeatedly glazed over but not once did this interrupt his healing; he resisted twice, but the rest of the time he was unaffected by it. I threw over 30 pixies at him. Not a thing.
Mobs have insane channelling skills, so don't expect miracles from this song anyway. Wait until you get to the plane of hate and see the clerics cast complete heal on themselfs while taking 3000+ hp of damage and numerous stun spells.
Youve seen a cleric cast complete heal through a stun spell? stun = interrupted casting. now if your saying the stun spell was resisted.. well, that has no effect on the channeling roll at all anyway.
I’m not familiar with this Pixie Strike, but apparently it had a hidden message the bard couldn’t see in which the mob resisted (looks like a mez), not sure if P99 is as unreliable. Rest of post indicates even raids had hard time interrupting CHeal mobs due to high channeling.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/%22Monks$20need$20to$20be$20able%22%7Csort:date/alt.games.everquest/ddgxWeUdJbc/EsJlPXwMAyUJ
(Posted: 10/30/1999)
thread titled 'Monks need to be able to interrupt casters'
Post 1: Add a knock-back ability to the flying kick attack.
Post 2: …the special attack already interrupts casters. I would have to try it again to be sure.
Post 3: …I've yet to beat a monk in PvP. Once that Monk gets in melee range… I can't get a spell off to save my life.;)
Post 4: That's strictly in a PvP environment, against NPC casters I've done upwards of 300 points in a single round only to have some cheeze goblin 20 levels below me drop a nice 200pt or more nuke on me.
Post 5: NPC casters cheat and so using sheer damage to intterupt them doesn't work.
Post 6: I don't think that it would be fair to the monsters if they had the same interuption rules as players
Post 7: Not fair to the monsters? HAHAHA! We've already got … mobs who constantly interrupt you just with basic melee while you can't reliably do the same to them
Post 8: …almost any special physical attack can interrupt casters. My little ranger … saves her kick until she sees him start to cast. I've got about an 80% success rate with that so far.
Post 9: It's easier to interrupt at the earlier levels, but at 40 I can hardly do it at all. I count myself extremely lucky to interrupt a caster after eight punches and a kick (with the long casting time and a sash, this does happen). You can see our whole group attacking something without stuns and the MOBs will /still/ cast through most of the time.
Post 10: That's probably because the higher-level critters have better channeling.
Typical of monks to complain they didn’t have a bash skill to interrupt casters, however some corrected that special attacks do indeed have a chance to interrupt, but on lower level mobs more than higher level. More evidence of insane NPC Channeling and that special attacks were the key to have a chance at interrupting (not regular melee attacks), even in a group setting.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/Qe7uZ0i9NRI/tW9sfdJfFIQJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/QMMw_mGGex8/stLpYuyDbhkJ
(Posted: 09/22/2001)
Thread titled: Whoa holy cow, melee test changes
Oh fuck no! Slam increases the amount of movement of the mob. Mob placement is one of the most critical aspects of killing ubers, push a dragon up a flag pole and you're almost garanteed to lose.
This post implies that regular melee attacks have no real push value on a mob but to avoid using SLAM skill because it moves the mob. Highly doubt a handful of slams would significantly add to push vs. the hundreds of rounds of melee being dished out every few seconds. This is what leaves me to believe that special attacks have very high push values and regular melee have extremely limited push values.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/interrupt$20complete%7Csort:date/alt.games.everquest/qlZjYofN3rQ/QpPPzC_iLQwJ
(Posted: 06/07/2002)
thread title 'NPC Casters'
NPCs also have amazing channeling skills. I find it funny that 3 people with swords and clubs beating on a mob for 10 seconds straight doing HUNDREDS of points of damage and the mob STILL gets a complete heal off pretty amazing.
All that aside, my biggest problem with NPC casters: Damn near fucking impossible to interrupt their spells usually. A mob SNEEZES on me and my casting is interrupted. 3 hits for 20+ and a kick between start and finish casting, and the mob still gets the spell off without even a "regains his concentration" message. :-/
I almost think that channeling is only checked if you move the caster from their original position. Since melee has a knockback to it, usually the target has to check.
And if you want embarassing channeling, a buddy was running a raid in the basement of Sebilis during the Kunark era. 18 people were pounding on a mushroom man that had CHeal, and the mushroom was able to get off CHeal on itself six times in a row.
I seem to channel through normal hits quite regularly. Bash, Slam, and Stun spells are what you need to interrupt a mob.
This is mid-Luclin era and even with AAs and upgraded weapons / levels melee attacks aren’t interrupting caster’s CHeal chains? This does say that melee has a knockback to it, but doesn’t exactly say which kind (kick/bash/slam? Or regular damage?), but regardless indicates it is just a channeling check to move the mob when knockback occurs, not a 100% guarantee to interrupt much like we see on P99 after a short amount of push. I find the second comment a bit ludicrous as 18 people should be able to simply out damage a CHeal at that point, but take it for what it’s worth. The final comment indicates that since he is able to channel through normal hits that is why NPC casters can channel through normal melee hits, best to rely on the special attacks / spells to interrupt.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/0V26BLTIddg/JGRVhYOMO8cJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/__jauvPF3po/rq5D3e-E94EJ
(Posted: 01/18/2003)
Thread titled: Interrupting Casters, Was Beginning to see why Bards Rock.
Push.
Melee combat other than bash, slam and (high level) kick will not interrupt spells, but if you can create movement in the mob through your hits, it will be interrupted.
I've *heard* about pushing mobs around with melee, and I've noticed it happen to me, but I haven't figure out what causes it, or how you can improve your chances of doing it. Is it an effect of high strength, damage dealt, hits connecting, the weapon type, high offense, high attack, high weapon skill, something else??
Getting a bit further out of era here but still good stuff, post claims that pushing a mob will interrupt a spell. Follow up post indicates this is some kind of mysterious thing that is unknown and not sure how to reproduce it, if it worked on live like it did on P99 then let’s face it, it would be OBVIOUS. Further leads me to believe that regular melee wasn’t the sole causer of mob push (and that P99 values are too high), but perhaps just the special attacks and spell knockback effects to trigger a channeling check.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/NQkLRBzBagI/STxXsxxeG58J;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/0V26BLTIddg/JGRVhYOMO8cJ
(Posted: 01/25/2004)
Thread titled: gating mobs
Conversation revolves around how to interrupt mobs that gate, as well as stun immune mobs like giants:
Actually, it's a team effort to keep a mob from gating. Enchanters/bards/necros can mana drain, enchanters/wizards/clerics/paladins can stun, warriors/paladins/shadowknights can bash.
Everybody else just hopes that does the trick. As a monk, I pretty much have to rely on luck for interrupts. To anyone that offers the suggestion to push I offer the anecdotal evidence that I have dragon punched (monk knockback proc) a mob all the way across a *large* room and didn't manage to interrupt it.
Yes if they don't stun or mez like Kael giants, all casters begin chain nuking as the MoB's health approaches 20 percent and continue till dead or gated.
Would think it to be completely obvious by now if you just get all the melee on the same side of a mez / stun immune mob and push it, even the monk says he needs to ‘rely on luck’ to interrupt, not the fact that he will push the mob with his fast epic fists to interrupt casting. I just don’t think that mob pushing was a reliable way to guarantee an interrupt on a gating mob and especially if that mob was immune to stuns, it had a channeling check but nothing as crazy as we see here on P99.
Also mentions he ‘Dragon Punch’ AA didn’t seem to matter on how far you pushed the mob, on P99 if you pushed it that far there was no way in hell it was casting successfully. I did read that Dragon Punch AA was a bit lame and almost never interrupted casters, but that would lead me to believe that mob channeling checks were not based solely off its current position, but only if a QUALIFIED attack / spell was executed on it (such as kick / bash / slam / knockback spell… perhaps normal melee could push but added no success to interrupting spell casting if only regular attacks pushed it)
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/QMMw_mGGex8/stLpYuyDbhkJ;context-place=msg/alt.games.everquest/NQkLRBzBagI/STxXsxxeG58J
(Posted: 02/06/2004)
Thread titled: BST pet push
There are two main methods to mitigate pet push.
1) use 'low push' procs, i.e. not Spirit of Wind, or others that push specifically to interupt casters.
2) position the pet in such a manner that it pushes mobs into a wall or corner, rather than back towards adds or other places you don't want to be.
As a beast, one of my 'pet bitches' is that often push is not coming from me, but from casters using stuns (which push)
Couple of things - first, mage water pets generate almost no push - they don't bash or kick. If you don't give 'em proccing weapons there is no push. The other thing is that, while pets don't push *more* than a melee, they are more tenacious - they immediately move up and stay engaged with a mob - melee tend not too.
With a water pet and my kitty on the back of a mob, I can hold a mob perfectly stationary with my BL tanking
The secret to dealing with pushy pets (and pushy PCs for that matter) is to get them all on one side of the mob. Not the front, not the rear, but the side. As they push the mob the tank simply edges a tiny bit in the opposite direction, adjusting his facing to keep the mob in front of him. The mob, and the PCs and pets pushing it, just circle round and round the tank. Rogues don't kick, so let them have the mob's back to themselves as kick and procs seem to be the main push culprits.
This post was a bit of a smoking gun for me. Indicates that a mage water pet has nearly zero push since the high level one does not Bash. Furthermore, with this water pet on a mobs back + his pet (without proc spells), he can keep a mob stationary (simply due to the lack of bashing it would seem). Highly doubt any mob on P99 would stay stationary with 2 pets behind. Further leads me to believe melee push values are way high here.
The final post in here also indicates that ‘kicks and procs seem to be the main push culprits’ and seems to indicate that Backstab for rogues does not have a push value (perhaps by design from the devs to not hinder a rogue’s primary ability). Furthermore, if rogues were all behind the mob, it would not work as they describe to push around the tank, rogue’s regular melee attacks would push mob over the tank.
http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-2758.html
Qaam Asutra
07-13-2007, 10:08 AM
Seems to be part a trend lately. Change push so that melee are helped, then nerf push on players so it doesn't help casters. It also doesn't help knights who are trying to channel in combat. With the new push changes we have NO way of interrupting casters anymore, grats paladins and warriors. wtb new bash or fear spell that can interrupt casters up to lvl 82 in the next expansion.
window
07-13-2007, 11:48 AM
are you implying you could interrupt npc casters by pushing them before the push change? cause that never happened.
http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-4125.html
Iwishi
08-09-2008, 09:36 AM
Interupts happen when the loc you are at when the spell finishes casting doesnt match the loc you were at when you started casting, or, you get stunned/bashed/kicked. A DoT will do nothing. Does not apply to NPCs
MortredSoulrend
08-10-2008, 05:37 AM
From personal experience (maybe im insane) But I see a massive difference in mob heals/cheals/spellcasting (thats not instant) being helped by pushing the mob. A mob where the group is all pushing from the same direction used to not be able to do shit. Maybe the push change some time ago has made player push a non factor. but alot of people I know still do it out of habit for some reason.
These are just much later era evidence, but thought they may add confidence to changes. No real time frames are given to their ‘old push’ methods, not sure how many iterations it went through, but thought I would just present it here.
The Conclusion:
Hopefully this was compelling evidence to make a change to NPC channeling. Quite frankly it is just far too easy to interrupt a caster currently. This could have great game changing dynamics for P99, it could make wizards that have knockback components to spells more viable to interrupting dragons who are trying to gate, gating dragons may just need to be fought on their spawn point, monks won’t be able to solo high level casters with any reliability and would group more, high level shaman’s may not be able to farm certain mobs that CHeal, Paladins and SKs have more utility with bash causing heavy push, people may want large races with Slam as opposed to master race Iksar… and most importantly, Enchanters will begin to use Mana Sieve on Vox and HoT wurms once again. The list can go on...
If a recycle server is to happen this would be a most welcome change, even with NPCs casting their high level spells it simply is too easy to interrupt them.
Thanks for listening, I welcome any discussion as this is just my theory and I could be wrong on certain aspects.
Perhaps the truth is in the middle where push only applied to your primary hand + special attacks, dual wield and double attacks ignored, could account for less push overall. Please share your thoughts, would love to hear them.