Sneak pulling revisited

[Caiu]

The patch notes I work with come from https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B9w2lZ-BZM3lUklnT3llZTA3OXc Direct Link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9w2lZ-BZM3lUWJUZGVZVXFzT1E and where possible are referenced against http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/ for accuracy. However there is a lot missing from Baldio's so this can't always be done. All other sources listed below.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/IpHEGyN02X4/ny-zsdZM-xYJ
8/5/99

"There is a problem with feign death in that once you get up, the
monsters that were attacking you realize that you were faking it and
have a tendency of rampaging back to you. If you have to Feign, once the
monsters are gone, you can Sneak before getting up and they won't
realize that you were faking it. This gives you more time to get to a
zone or get prepared to confront them because once you stop sneaking
they will hunt you down."

Sorta sounds like how sneak would blur on p1999 except on live it was a blur that would only persist while still sneaking. This would change on patch day 12/01/99 which introduced a new FD system. Both the old and new system were explained on 11/16/99. These patch notes and the statement from Usenet are the only things I could see explaining a mechanic similar to the old sneak blurring. There is no mention of anything resembling a blurring after that patch. There is plenty of mention however of using sneak in the act of the inital pull for the players benefit which I'll get to.
November 16th, 4:30pm
> ---------------------
>
> Feign Death was recently changed by the Tuning Team to reflect evolving
> gameplay issues. Since two of the three classes that get Feign Death get
it
> through spells, I thought this might be a good place to explain the
changes.
>
> Previously, when you used Feign Death (and assuming you cast the spell
> successfully or, in the case of the Monk, made your skill roll) hostile
> monsters would decided that you were dead and wander off. When you later
> got up, they would still remember that they were angry with you. If you
> were within sight, they would immediately come after you. If not, they
> would come after you at some later point. This might happen within a few
> minutes, or could happen even a few hours later. The only way to be
> absolutely sure that a monster had forgotten about you was to zone.
>
> With our new changes, about a third of the time that you successfully
Feign
> Death, the monster will immediately forget about you, similar to an
> Enchanter casting Memory Blur. If they do NOT forget about you, they will
> immediately come after you when you stand up. No more monsters coming
back
> at irregular amounts of time - it should be immediate or not at all.
>
> This is a change - the old way, if you Feigned Death a SINGLE TIME, the
> monster would ALWAYS remember you. This way, they remember you about
> two-thirds of the time.
>
> Using the old Feign Death, you could Feign Death multiple times to try to
> confuse the monster. After about seven or eight times doing this, most
> monsters would eventually forget they were mad at you.
>
> With the new Feign Death, if you Feign Death once the monster has about a
65
> percent chance of remembering you. Twice and the monster has about a 50
> percent chance of remembering you. Four times means about 20 percent, and
> six times means about 8 percent. This is very similar to the old Feign
> Death.
>
> Another addition to the new Feign Death involves a monster "going home."
> When you Feign Death, most monsters will return to where they were before
> the fight. If a monster returns to its initial location, it will
> immediately forget about you greater then 90 percent of the time.
> Therefore, if you Feign Death and stay down long enough for a monster to
"go
> home," you should be safe when you stand up a majority of the time. If
the
> monster IS still mad at you, it will return immediately, rather then
> wandering back later at some irregular interval.
>
>
> *FEIGN DEATH UPDATE*
>
> After further testing and watching these changes on the Live verses the
Test
> Server, we will bechanging Feign Death again on the next patch.
>
> New changes will make it so that if the creature is less than level 35,
the
> monster will always forget about you. If the creature greater then level
35,
> then the monster will use the changes detailed above.
>
> - The EverQuest Team

Alla comments just wern't cutting it for me so I tried combing through Usenet for more reliable sources.

Lannella / Busker
9/13/01

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/9L7PC0-_Af0/Qum7uOgJeNkJ
I can be a better puller than a FDing monk. With proper application of
Sneak while pulling, you can separate a camp without ever pulling them all
in the first place. (This one I've still got to learn, but it's
awe-inspiring to see it done)."


Tim Smith
9/13/01

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/9L7PC0-_Af0/tYcKs_PYeyYJ
Won't that only work if the camp is laid out right? Also, if you do
get more than one, or if you pick up an add on the way back, you are
stuck with it, aren't you? The monk is not.

That's why monks are the best pullers. They have the skills to handle
the situation when things do not go right.

--Tim Smith

Mark A. Rimer
9/14/01

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/9L7PC0-_Af0/5-DUgJA0H0gJ
Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> Won't that only work if the camp is laid out right? Also, if you do
> get more than one, or if you pick up an add on the way back, you are
> stuck with it, aren't you?
Absolutely not! The thing to remember is that sneak lowers aggro
radius. I have _many_ times separated a camp, and with a good
lead back to my group, had an aggro blue/even/yellow/red pop
in front of me...it is entirely possible to:

1) push "sneak" while running
2) sneak past the critter
3) keep sneaking until your own pull is also
past the critter
4) un-sneak and finish the run back to the
group

The trick is aggro distance. If you're sneaking when both
you AND the pull go past the possible add, he won't add,
either. Distance has a lot to do with it, as well as facing.

But it is EXTREMELY possible to sneak pull right past
an aggro mob with another of his friends in tow.

>That's why monks are the best pullers. They have the skills to handle
> the situation when things do not go right.
That is true under level 50 or so, and some folks would
argue it's only true up to level 35. After then, I've seen
entirely too many monks successfully FD and get pounded
to death while laying on the ground...might as well have
the druid pull.
Sneak pulling is much more art than skill...but skill comes
in to it, too :-).

The ending statement with succesful FD's failing gave me pause and I looked around.
September 11, 2001 3:00 am Patch
Fixed a long-standing bug that was causing Feign Death to fail when
several characters were on the NPCís hate list along with the character
using Feign Death. Weíd like to extend much thanks to the monk
community who helped us track this one down. Also fixed a problem with
the monkís ëBlockí skill which inadvertantly was recapped at a lower
than normal skill level in recent months. Kudos to ìFanedî of the
ìMonkly Businessî bulletin board who brow-beat Gordon with the facts
until he gave in and looked at the code :)"

A monk better be certain that he only has however many mobs he intended on his tail. Up until that point coming into camp intending to just flop one or two in camp could cause a nasty train. This bug would explain what he was witnessing. Verant's use of 'long-standing' makes me think it had been an issue possibly since the December 99 patch.



http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling
Written by Kuurus IceBear

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

There are some mobs that work on social aggro that don't need to "see" the player to be aggro'd by the other mob, most of the time sneak pulling won't help in these isolated instances. But there are LOTS of mobs people have told me are linked by social aggro and I couldn't sneak pull just one, yet I have *shrug*

Anyways, most mobs in norrath work on chain aggro - one runs by aggro'd, it aggro's another, BUT Sneak negates this in most instances.

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

The important thing is KEEP SNEAK ENGAGED until the mob is past anything else it can aggro on it's way to you. If you get hit so that sneak is off, or just take it off, then all normal chain aggro comes into effect.

By the way, because of this, sneak pulling casters is trickier. If they hit you with a nuke, sneak comes off, re-engage it quickly and you have a chance still to negate any chain aggro.

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Responses to some questions:

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karnors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

Using this, I have been able to keep the basement completely cleared, getting nothing but single pulls for 8 hours. It makes having the "necessary" cleric and chanter unecessary in an area that gives great xp - I've done the whole basement with nothing but 2 rogues and a druid.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you.

p.s. - Nimm is correct, I was simply referring to the pulling range of *most* weapons as far as pulling safely from the front. Of course there are some exceptions. Edited by: Zato at: 6/11/01 11:53:47 am

The original author Kuurus put it very clumsily in the main body but Zato's responses to questions clears the air a lot. I could not tell what function hide served in Kuurus' explanation and it muddied the waters. Zato's explanation also sheds light on why rogues in the right hands were quite the pullers themselves from the Usenet posts.

I read that body pulling works on Live and there was some question as to mechanics changing over time. It did not work with body pulling originally according to this patch.
May 8, 2002 3:00 am Patch
** Skills **

- Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

So there is some proof of mechanics changing. According to a monkly-business guide sneaking and then throwing was said to have been changed to not drop sneak in late 2000. I could see them thinking this was too powerful and changing to body-pulls but it is outside of the vanilla-velious timeline as would all other subsequent mechanic changes.

https://web.archive.org/web/20111127180317/http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8889
09-25-2000
4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

[Rygar]

Interesting post for sure, it is interesting to see the FD comment on the memblur aspect. It says hitting FD 6 times results in the mob only having an 8% chance of remembering you. I have never seen this on P99 since the sneak changes, I have tried popping and dropping a ton to split yet seems like your chances of memblurring decrease with each drop (opposite of what was described). I wind up having to let the mobs reset and try again (I've since used reverse yo-yo pulling with great success).

On the sneak pulling from a rogue perspective, it is very curious. The only specific instance he gave was the KC basement, and I've never been there so don't know how the mobs are spaced out and if those mobs social each other on live or what.

He seems to say early that if a mob has social agro sneaking will do nothing to help, but then contradicts that saying some mobs he was 'told were social' (who knows if this is true) he can sneak pull them right through each other.

For instance in the Hole, rats and undead don't social with elementals but I could see how some people thought they would. If a rogue was pulling from jail and out past castle he may pull a rat and sneak/hide past a few elemental spawns and think his sneaking negated the agro, when in truth they wouldn't have agroed anyways.

Still some good research, more specifics on what mobs were pulled through what would be more convincing in my opinion (and what level the puller was).

[Brocode]

Nice amount of info, about running and insta sneaking, and passing by unaggroed have done, but not while pulling, shoulda test this.

Most of the info should be alike this FD, but sneak with blur and the way it works itself. Hopefully devs will dig into it and make it true classic!

[Foxplay]

Sneak was not suppose to make Feign a 100% blur, the could still turn around and remember you above 35, regardless of sneak activated as you where still remaining on their hate list

However Sneak did block social aggro provided the mob you aggro does not run in front of the mobs you have a successful sneak angle on. something that seems messed up currently on p99 (Not currently playing a monk so I cant really test *unless i log onto a rogue or something*). But tagging the rear mob with sneak (with a 2nd monk) was a very common tactic on classic. As well as breaking camps that where laid out correctly (aka. exposed rears). I distinctly remember being able to single pull any guard's that where parallel (side by side) with a sneak behind both. However even with sneak if you pull right thru the mob or your pull mob goes in front of his face, it would aggro them.

[Caiu]

Essentially all the things that make sneak pulling work are still in the game. However we are using a Live mechanic whereby mobs of the same faction will assist one another even if the sneak angles are right. This isn't accurate for the classic timeline.

[diamondfist]

*bump*

Sneak pulling is very much a classic mechanic... this doesnt just gimp monks its any rogue/ranger/halfling with a throwing item out there.

[Boilon]

Come back to P99 and find out that my monk sucks lol...

[Pyrocat]

*bump*

Sneak pulling is very much a classic mechanic... this doesnt just gimp monks its any rogue/ranger/halfling with a throwing item out there.

.

[nyclin]

bump

[Caiu]

^

[Spit]

*bump*

Sneak pulling is very much a classic mechanic... this doesnt just gimp monks its any rogue/ranger/halfling with a throwing item out there.

[Caiu]

Just to corroborate that Torven didn't make up those patch notes I found this

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/5AH-GwxhE3Y/0EkRaKIq0eYJ

There are some actual tests and results that some people ran along with the patch notes provided in the OP. In case you wanted to take a crack at vanilla FD mechanics. :)
Have a nice day!

[Baam]

Bump fix sneak pulls at least after they fucked it up with memblur fd sneak patch

[Spit]

Bump

[Supaskillz]

rogues just wanna have fun...

In all seriousness though is the current mechanic (sneak does nothing with regards to social aggro on a pull regardless of positioning) considered to be the best estimate of classic mechanic at this time? Or was the change due to it being OP or abused on p99?

[Caiu]

I believe it to be the latter scenario since any rogue/ranger/monk who actually played during classic era would laugh at the ruleset in place now. Not too mention the ample timeline and evidence to verify the timeline provided in this thread. Begs to question why we have something as destabilizing as recharging if we don't have sneak pulling.

[Muggens]

Essentially all the things that make sneak pulling work are still in the game. However we are using a Live mechanic whereby mobs of the same faction will assist one another even if the sneak angles are right. This isn't accurate for the classic timeline.

[Caiu]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/jM3DtlvyCqQ/gTpf514EIqgJ
James Grahame

8/16/02



"jaZZmanian Devil" <js...@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3D5D0642.CE74872@stny.rr.com...
>
> That brings up another question. And I'm really hoping I haven't played
> 2+ years with a total misunderstanding of this. But it deals with how
> invis and the mob's aggro/hate list work together.
>
> It was my impression that, once you were on a mob's hate list (had
> aggro'd it) that invis would not work on that mob for as long as you
> were on the list.
Correct. The key is being Invis before you get added to the hate list.
It works very much the same as sneak pulling does for a rogue - throw
something, hit Sneak before the weapon lands. You will now pull only the
thing you hit, and any mobs that get aggro passed to them where you aren't
in their rear arc.

James

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/jM3DtlvyCqQ/3WpiEMlXImcJ
Mark A. Rimer

8/16/02


"James Grahame" <jamesg...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Cib79.2515$Eq3.64676@news0.telusplanet.net...
- show quoted text -
Correct. HIDE won't work on any once you're on the hate list, but a
successful sneak is 100% effective on every mob in the game. Not
only that, but if you're pulling a single mob, you don't even have to sneak
to get through the other mobs on the path back until you get right to them.
This is handy pre-55 when sneak is still slower, but is REALLy fun and
useful at levels 58-60 when you can't really tell much difference between
sneak speed and regular speed.

Sneak pulling was how I learned to solo the lizard sentinals from the
maze in Cazic back when rogues didn't get groups in Cazic (pick-ups,
anyways) without pulling back green warders and defenders.

[p99pally]

Bump

[Baam]

Fix this

[Chrysus]

One of our saddest bugs. Sneak pulling is suppose to be a thing in classic EQ.

[jpetrick]

^

[Doil_Boil]

Bump.

[Buellen]

just adding more info to this discussion.


my finds:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/laotzu-s-guide-to-advanced-pulling-t534-s30.html


September 27th, 2001, 7:51 pm #32

Last time i tried this, it worked perfectly, but I have only tried a few times, and have only had it work well twice, but I think there is room for improvement.

I've been yo-yoing Giants in kael for a month or so. My guild dosent have the lvls to do the arena, so we've been hunting other spots in Kael that drop armor. I have started using my sneak button and have had some odd results.

Hypothisis 1
Agroed lazy mobs are not affected by agroed unlazy mobs near them.

Hypothisis 2
Sneak affects lazy agro radius.


Im not 100% on this, but i think there is something there. Regardless, using my sneak button I have gotten some beautiful single pulls out of clumps of giants.

Im going to go to Kael tonight and do some tests on this. I will post more when i have something more concrete.


Disciple Takhim
Tallon Zek





March 4th, 2002, 5:39 pm #35

Here is a tehnique for pulling static spawns that I'm not going to claim ownership of(read it here somewhere, wish I could attribute it), but I think is damn cool.

Find a group of static spawns that always face the same direction. Tons of examples of these, Guards are probably the most common example. Run behind them while they're still at their spawn points and feign. So now you're behind them and they're facing away from you. Hit sneak and stand up behind one. Target one and Instill Doubt over and over until it sticks. ID is nonaggro until it succeeds(if it's resisted this won't work, so maybe not best for uber mobs with high resists) and when it succeeds one of them will run away from the others while the others will turn and beat on you. This other one will go to the max distance from you along it's path. Have a tagger out there and you can feign once the mob runs far enough away from the others to be out of assist range.

The other static spawns forget you almost immediately, they're still at their spawn points, the one that was feared can be tagged.

Rinse and repeat for all the static spawns

Good pushing!

Steven


https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-guide-feign-death-t681.html


December 16th, 2001, 10:38 pm #7

From the "What do do when you are tired of laying there" department

beside my FD button i made one titled FSnek that is simply

/loc
/sit off
/doability (sneak)

This does double duty. It gives me my normal sneak button, AND it allows me to get up from a feign and immediately start sneaking. Unless a mob just sticks there for a bit, they will all be out of 'line-of-site' when you are ready to get up, so this can and will save yer butt. The /loc part is a matter of discipline for me. I add it to everything I do, and almost always I have a reference point to find my corpse.

Today I was using Froon to practice my 2hb (28... arrrgh) with my new swoobie Adamantite Bo. here's my tactic, to make the above clear.

1) sneak and approach Froon (who i now refer to as Homer Simpson) from behind.
2) WHILE SNEAKING instill doubt. I never got a sucessful one against him, but hey, i can dream... it always seemed to fizzle on the third try and he would aggro.
3) whack away for several blows, i.e. til i got down to a couple of red bubbles.
4) back up to my original spot behind him at the edge of his aggro radius, FD, wait for him to go back.

5) press the said button above, bind my wounds, mend if it was ready, and back at him.

I also chased a Corrupted Mammoth halfway across Everfrost like this today solo. whack, whack, FD, bind, bind, chase, whack, whack...

Just my 2cp.

HaoChi Tsu
30th level Monk on Tarew-Marr

[Buellen]

more information
----------------------------------------------------------------


MalcolmSm1th
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
MalcolmSm1th
#1
Returning to Norrath and Sneak Pull
09-22-04, 05:24 PM
After over a year away from the game I have decided to return with my level 37 Rogue. No doubt there will be massive changes to Norrath and Luclin (and to places where I can't get to yet) and I will in time find my way about.

Now, one of the things that I had tried and never mastered (or even got working just the once!) is the Sneak-Pull.

Is there a good place for me to practise this? I have read a few Guides on this topic and I am still not sure which is the best way to face or the mobs to face? So, where would a good place be for me to go and practise?
Tags: None
Derrict
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2003
Derrict
#2
09-23-04, 04:12 AM
re: Returning to Norrath and Sneak Pull

You need to find mobs that don't social assist but have large aggro radius (or very small social assist range). Most mobs social assist so using sneak pulling won't have any effect.

Animals generally don't social assist other mob types (ie undead, humanoid, dragon) but you won't find many animal-type mobs at upper levels.
Derrict Thealcholic - Retired Spring '04

[Caiu]

Years out of era. Information doesn't apply to the timeline p1999 adheres to.

[Rygar]

I breezed through the earlier postings and didn't see this one... While not completely relevant from the back, seems to describe sneak being used to prevent assisting, even when used in the front. Lays out some specific rooms, I know the Tae room has some bad add potential in era (lots of wonky agro / train potential), and the posters on this site routinely leveled in CT and other such noob places (i.e. I believe puller was level appropriate, not a level 60 going at it). I'm not familiar with how the Burynai Mines are setup though to understand if single pulling would have been easy enough without sneak.

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5865
12/11/2000:
Now I've given you all the information necessary for the single pull. Let me describe the rogue implementation of this, the sneak pull.

This works best with a SoW, but I've had it work without. First, sneak up to bow range to the monster. Hide is not necessary. Because sneak reduces aggro range, even from the front, you should still not have aggroed anything. Shoot an arrow at the one you want, and immediately back off. The one you shot will come running, and if you can get far enough away before it comes and hits you and removes sneak, its friends will not. The bow works better than throwing because it lets you stay further back, but I've heard you can get this to work with throwing as well.

I have successfully used the sneak pull in Cazic-Thule at the lower Tae room and at the Burynai Mines in Frontier Mountains. I'm sure it would work in other places as well; I just never had the need.

[Pringles]

bump

[Pringles]

bump for giggles.

faction was irrelevant in classic in regards to sneak agro.

[Pringles]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507.html

Interesting stuff in here far too long to quote. OP does mention that it does not work on social mobs but later in the thread when the change to throwing weapons no longer breaking sneak she walks back that opinion. Like I've been saying all along the game was constantly evolving and updating.

If we look at this safehouse guide again it mentions social not working yet he had gotten it to work on most mobs that should social. I believe that sneak pulling would not work on mobs that were leashed together such as Lucan and Jentry. They simply either didn't known of leashed mobs or were using incorrect terminology.

https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling

[Pringles]

up

[Pringles]

I've gone over the what research I've put up and think I have a better understanding of this mechanic.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507.html

OP was edited for the may 2002 patch which changed thrown weapons to not break sneak. However there is a lot of evidence pointing towards what I believe is the correct sneak pull mechanic in era but I'll bring that up later. Next up is whether it mattered if a mob was social.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507.html#p17330
Sneak pulling is an Odd one, I still haven't got it all down right, but here's my perception of what you can do with it.

Its main use appears to be when there are mobs that are Agro, close, but *NOT* social. If you can sneak in and nail one with a shuriken or get yourself inside the vision sector of one but not the others, then sneak back FAST out of the agro range of the second before you're hit and sneak is blown, you can pull just one of them fast and easy rather than the time and hassle of a feign pull. Of course this is easier for rangers, rogues as they have nice long range bows to use for this, but then if it messes up they can't just FD, so I know what I prefer!

Its claimed that sneak can be used as a minor harmony effect on *SOCIAL* mobs to reduce their add radius, but personally I haven't had much success with this at all. By far the best way to pull these is harmony if outside of course, or fd/chain, or the best way "be high enough level to only get one of them" .

Sneak is a core skill though, and extremely useful. However, I have noticed that some higher undead (karnors skeles etc...) *seem* unsneakable (360 degree agro) (unless you're a rogue of course).


Lythe

ps: more sneak pulling info needed please!

After that for a few pages in the thread that gets pretty much debunked as there is plenty of mention of using sneak to aggro pull social mobs. This mechanic may have changed between 2000 and 2001. I say this due to cross referencing to thesafehouse
https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling which was written in 2001.



https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507-s30.html#p17352

I did finally get around to trying out the sneak ranged pulling stuff, once i got the range 100 summonable shruiken, it does work... kinda. I don't claim to have mastered by the time I finally through in the towel with EQ, but the idea does have merit with long ranged stuff, thanks for the link Andrew

Hugs and kisses to all my monkly friends, I hope the primer serves you long after the author i just a memory in the lands of EQ.

Autumn Dawnfire
"I am a monk, nothing more, nothing less."
Tigerwhite
"Tigerwhite burning bright"

OP tested out the throw, hit sneak, and back out of range of other mobs with some success. Mind you this was before the may 2002 patch.


https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507-s40.html#p17335

This was a copy paste from the safehouse hence the 10/30/00 date despite the post being from early 2002
Zinj
Disciple
Posts: 161
(10/30/00 12:13:08 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del All Sneak Pulling - a 'guide' to how the rogues do it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sneak Pulling - a guide to how the rogues do it

Really ought to be titled, Aggro Range Pulling.

Here's another tidbit I pulled out of The Safehouse for rogues this morning. Since we also get the Sneak
skill, we have a possible fallback position if Verant royally screws up feign-pulling. The biggest problem for
us would be that our Sneak skill caps at 113, with a minor secondary that we can't use bows. This is a
preliminary for everyone to know there are alternatives (not pleasant ones granted). I have about three
times this material, but I'll have to winnow through it some more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sneak Pulling - a rough guide

Sneak Pull (v.), 1. The art of using a ranged weapon(ideally) to pull a single mob from a group of mobs
while sneaking. Melee weapons may be attempted by higher level rogues as their sneak speed increases.

How-to: Sneak into aggro range - tag the mob you want, sneak out before you are hit. The trick is, if you have a bunch of mobs with their backs to you, and one that is looking in your direction, you can sneak into that one mob's agro range and pull it out. The key is not to get hit (breaks sneak) before you back that mob out of agro range of the others.

Get SOWed! Not a requirement, but it makes a big difference in escaping aggro range of the other mobs before your sneak is busted.

Caveat: Pull non-caster mobs out of groups of casters. Aggro range for a caster = spell range and its
really hard to get out of this before he starts casting on you.

Best use for this I've found: this makes us into chain-pulling gods. Let a monk pull whatever he wants up
into a nice tidy FD pile a good distance from the group, target the one you want, bring it to the group.
Monk just stands up and re-FDs to keep the pile there while you whittle them down one by one until only
casters are left.

Wishful thinking: Verant's promised throwing weapons because the ones we have now just don't have the
range to do this well. So make a ranger happy - buy his nice bow; and then show him a real use for it =)

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507-s50.html#p17358


SOLB, King Room (where targin spawns)

at 40 just walk by the room and you will aggro 2 or 3 mobs in there
at 45 sneak to the bottom of the ramp, throw a shuriken at the first spawn and bring back one (go ahead and try it with sneak off and you will aggro more than one)
at 46 sneak to the middle of the ramp (and you can single pull every mob with a shuriken, moving to the far right to gank the mob sitting on the throne)
at 47 sneak to the top of the ramp and single pull with shuriken
at 48 no sneak required just walk to middle of ramp, throw shuriken (the first two mobs will come in singles without needing to throw anything at them, I experimneted with 'hailing' them as well)

the Hole, front entrance mobs before drop down
I think i visited here at 48 the first time, the first static elemetal warrior you can see, there is another static one directly opposite of him that you can't see. with shattering hammers i walked to within range and threw it at the mob and aggroed both (the one i could not see). FD and waited till they both reset, then got up, sneaked to within range, and threw my hammer only got one, and you are still sneaking (at least your movement rate is sneak speed) until you get hit
At 52 when i went back, i could throw a hammer at the first mob without sneaking.

the Hole, first Rock Golem before drop down
As you face the Rock golem, to the right of him is a static crusader.

at 52, i could sneak range pull just the golem (he does not path thru the crusader) with a 150 range item (from the umberbulks in Echo caverns)
at 53, i could sneak range pull the roick golem with a shattering hammer

in both these instances if I was not sneaking when i got to the ranges i needed, I would aggro both.

sunol 54 monk of Xev

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507-s50.html#p17364

okay ijusth, with sneak + thrown weapon pulling, there is no need to FD, like at all. It's a huge time saver, as you aren't waiting on FD to recycle for the split, basically you reduce the range at which mobs will respond you're attack on the one you're tagging, it does not completely eliminate it, you're level will effect the agro range ( as always ), but it will get reduced by use of sneak.

It used to be that using a thrown weapon broke sneak, and you have to rehit it really fast to get this method to work ( so you needed to be sneaking again by the time the weapon actually connected meaning you needed a weapon with a pretty good range ). With the changes so that throwing doesn't break sneak, that is no longer the case, makes this a LOT eaiser to use, even with reltively short range weaopns like a shattering hammer or normal throwing stars.

ID splitting is a whole other monkey, doesn't involve throwing in any way

Unsure if ID splitting works here or sneak reducing aggro radius. I recall you had to sneak through NToV door to not aggro mobs. If you didn't sneak you would definitely aggro a bunch but that was in 2016.

I believe that throwing a ranged item then immediately hitting sneak is the correct mechanic so long as the mobs are angled right.

[Pringles]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/amazing-way-to-split-without-even-gaining-2nd-aggr-t622.html#p19312

10:46 AM - Mar 25, 2003 #3
That's a basic Sneak Pull. It relies on a change made about 18 months ago, whereby mobs had to be aware of you to pick up aggro from another (social) mob, and Sneak didn't drop when you attacked (only when you got hit). It works most of the time with mobs that can't see invis and don't do any weird pathing dancing when trying to get you; if they run very close to the other mob, it can still aggro the second.

[Pringles]

This is a good primer on pull mechanics from 2003 which matches the tests H ran on live.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/sensei-xeal-s-pulling-guide-t533.html#p533

Agro at Boarder Proxy Range
Quite often if you are barely in agro range of an NPC, but not others near it, only that one your in range of will agro. When you gain agro in this fashion, the assist agro range will be centered upon the puller. This is not always the case, but often, the agro check for the other NPC is never made. If you cast a spell, or throw a weapon, the assist radius will be centered on the NPC you attacked rather then you.

Proxy Pull
This trick can usually get you a single NPC without the need of FD. The trick is to get to the boarder of the NPCs agro range, but out of the agro range of other NPCs near by. Stand at the boarder range of one NPC and wait till it runs and attacks you. Don’t cast a spell or throw anything cause that will center the assist radius on the NPC you hit rather then you. Provided the NPCs are not very closely bunched, they will split. This pulling trick works extremely well in the planes.

Sneak Pulling
This trick can give you an added faction bonus. If you get some NPCs with their backs facing you, you may be able to pull them with the same chance of chain agro as you would get had you pulled non KoS mobs. Yes, there is a chance others will chain agro, but the odds are lowered, and the conditions for the NPCs to chain will be higher. In places where the chain agro mobs are a lower level then you, this could work well. If one mob is facing you, you can pull off a sneak and proxy pull which could very well lead to an amazing split.


An even older source got it half right so we can assume that the prox aggro mechanic remained unchanged.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/laotzu-s-guide-to-advanced-pulling-t534.html#p17900

LaotzuQigong
Posts 43
Registered Member
7:08 AM - May 18, 2001 #7
Some interesting points...

As to the passing of hate lists, this of course only applies to high greens/blues or mobs that would normally aggro you...

Also, your discussion of "social" mobs goes to another topic entirely. Mobs have two different aggro ranges, one for general aggro (IE, you walk too close for a period of time) and second a combat aggro range (IE, You're in a fight with a mob) that I refer to as a "call for help" radius. For example, Treah in Growth has a zone wide call for help radius with certain mobs (a really annoying feature if I may say).

Also, at the outer ranges of the aggro radius, aggro delay is not a set time, as opposed to a percentage probability over time. So you will find at the furthest reach of an aggro range, mobs will have highly variable aggro times. You can prove this by slowly inching up on a mob, stopping, and waiting for 5 or 10 seconds. If you continue to inch and stop, inch and stop, you will find the maximum range of aggro. So one technique that I use sometimes is to figure out the very maximum aggro range, stop, and wait until the mob aggros.

The non-passing of the hate list would be more akin to an aggro percentage delay on other mobs... IE, they're at the maximum of aggro range, and so there's only a certain percentage probability of the second mob aggroing.

That first part is him not understanding server ticks or maybe they worked differently then. The second on non-passing of hate lists is just a crude understanding of proximity aggro. His variable percentages were your distance to the mobs that weren't being pulled, your level, and their level.


However based on all the evidence I think sneak went through various revisions and was eventually nerfed down to it's current form on live. Most likely due to the potential synergy with latter expansions tool sets.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/laotzu-s-guide-to-advanced-pulling-t534-s30.html#p17881

Mob LoS also seems to have a maximum distance. If I whip a Shuriken of Quellious at a frog, I can usually solo pull it by running backwards as I throw to gain distance on the attack.

[Pringles]

Whoops meant to add this at the bottom
https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2970-book-of-knowledge-guide-to-pulling

.) Pull
Once your group is informed, pull the mobs using one of these methods:
- use a bow, or even throwing weapons
- run past them, thus aggo’ing them
- run up to them, and attack them

Using a ranged attack is preferred, as you have a much greater chance of not pulling unwanted mobs. With one or several mobs aggo’ed on you, you should head back as fast as possible to your group. Feel free to use shortcuts like dropping from bridges, and also jump to get a little more distance between you and the mobs. If you manage/like you can also give your group another warning that mobs are "INC!!!". When pulling multiple mobs, make sure to target the most dangerous mob first, so that those who are /assist-ing will all

[Pringles]

It's almost as if the devs kept throwing projectiles to one rule and archery another. Then flopped them at times. Would explain the heights of rogue success using the technique only to be outclassed later when monks were really given the ratchet up with the patch to not break sneak due to a projectiles impact on another being.

This is never gonna be perfect however I believe there is enough evidence out there and in here to make an emulation to how we understand the mechanic. Evidence was asked for and I hope this part of the whole will suffice.

[Pringles]

\

I believe that throwing a ranged item then immediately hitting sneak is the correct mechanic so long as the mobs are angled right.

bump

[Pringles]

bump

[Pringles]

I believe based on all the evidence and reworking the mechanic towards the correct state that throwing a ranged item then immediately hitting sneak is the correct mechanic so long as the mobs are angled right and the sneak does not fail. This changes to being able to sneak then throw in Luclin. Pre luclin this skews it to only reliably working with rogues but any class/race with sneak could throw a hail Mary if they wanted to risk it.

[Pringles]

Came across a thread that documents fairly well the discovery of this mechanic over a couple years including nay sayers. The ending post by the OP sums it up pretty well

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507-s50.html#p17364

Jun 22, 2002#60
okay ijusth, with sneak + thrown weapon pulling, there is no need to FD, like at all. It's a huge time saver, as you aren't waiting on FD to recycle for the split, basically you reduce the range at which mobs will respond you're attack on the one you're tagging, it does not completely eliminate it, you're level will effect the agro range ( as always ), but it will get reduced by use of sneak.

It used to be that using a thrown weapon broke sneak, and you have to rehit it really fast to get this method to work ( so you needed to be sneaking again by the time the weapon actually connected meaning you needed a weapon with a pretty good range ). With the changes so that throwing doesn't break sneak, that is no longer the case, makes this a LOT eaiser to use, even with reltively short range weaopns like a shattering hammer or normal throwing stars.

ID splitting is a whole other monkey, doesn't involve throwing in any way

Peaces!

Kinda funny as reading through it the OP Autumn thought it was BS for a very long time then actually tested it, lo and behold it worked after trial and error. After that it blew up in monkly business can see a ton more mentions of the technique in threads on that forum. For reasons discussed earlier the safehouse knew about it much earlier and that is even remarked upon in the OP's thread. Good read.

[Pyrocat]

Great find! If you'll allow me to sum up some of the research so far, I feel like we have a very strong case for sneak pulling being classic.

Earliest post on that thread (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-tips-sneak-t507.html) that mentions sneak pulling is Sept 28th, 2000.

Can you sneak pull?

I saw mention on a rogue board that if you attack with
a thrown weapon, and press sneak before it hits, then
you can split a spawn. Supposedly only the mob you
hit goes aggro on you.

Can anyone confirm that this actually works?

So we know it's in-era that throwing a weapon (or shooting a bow) and then hitting sneak before it lands works. It sounds like it changed at some point from throwing weapons breaking sneak -> throwing weapons eventually didn't break sneak, which would be an even bigger boon.

4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

So we know that at least by June 23rd, 2002 throwing weapons didn't break sneak. But that's not in era. However, here's a post quoted earlier from the TTLG forums (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5865[/url) dated December 11th, 2000:

Now I've given you all the information necessary for the single pull. Let me describe the rogue implementation of this, the sneak pull.

This works best with a SoW, but I've had it work without. First, sneak up to bow range to the monster. Hide is not necessary. Because sneak reduces aggro range, even from the front, you should still not have aggroed anything. Shoot an arrow at the one you want, and immediately back off. The one you shot will come running, and if you can get far enough away before it comes and hits you and removes sneak, its friends will not. The bow works better than throwing because it lets you stay further back, but I've heard you can get this to work with throwing as well.

I have successfully used the sneak pull in Cazic-Thule at the lower Tae room and at the Burynai Mines in Frontier Mountains. I'm sure it would work in other places as well; I just never had the need.


That seems like solid evidence that sneak would not break from shooting a bow, and likely throwing weapons, in-era. Here's another piece of evidence:

Written by Kuurus IceBear

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.



Here's another smaller piece of evidence:

.) Pull
Once your group is informed, pull the mobs using one of these methods:
- use a bow, or even throwing weapons
- run past them, thus aggo’ing them
- run up to them, and attack them

Using a ranged attack is preferred, as you have a much greater chance of not pulling unwanted mobs.

So when exactly did the change occur? We don't know. There is a patch note from May 8th, 2002 that
Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.
which would indicate that previous to 5/8/2002 sneak broke when hitting someone... but there might've been an exception for ranged weapons.

Regardless of if ranged-weapons-breaking-sneak is in-era or not, there is plenty of evidence that firing a ranged weapon and then hitting sneak (if sneak was successful) reduced the aggro radius of your tag in classic EQ.

[Keebz]

^ this is all excellent. You may want to add links for each of those quotes.

I'm also curious if anyone asked on thesafehouse forums if there's more proof out there? As a rogue on live in classic, I'm kind of flabbergasted there isn't stronger documentation. I'm pretty sure I learned about this from the forums, and I quit my rogue long before Luclin came out.

[DMN]

Looks like a lot of contemporary testimony contradicts the idea sneak pulling ever being a thing, a least before they made changes to sneak only breaking when you got hit.

There were countless times back in the day where people would say things like:
"Casting a spell will pull less/more adds compared to X"
"aggro pulling will pull less/more adds compared to X"
" throwing/shooting will pull less/more adds compared to X"

Notice the pattern?

(Aggro pulling is just walking into aggro range while visible, sometimes called "face pulling" back then.)


Thing is, I'm pretty sure this all was the result of people not recognizing the level difference of the mobs they had this first "experience" with, yet they would always swear up and down that "that's the way it works". They didn't recognize that just gaining a level or 2 can completely change how man adds you got on a certain pull, or that many mobs have a wide range of levels while conning exactly the same. This lead to a lot of people claiming "myths" as gospel. or sometimes they just repeat the myth they heard someone else say because they wan to seem knowledgeable.

[Keebz]

Thing is, I'm pretty sure this all was the result of people not recognizing...

Conjecture, no matter how plausible, isn't useful in this context. Please feel free to provide proof.

[DMN]

Conjecture, no matter how plausible, isn't useful in this context. Please feel free to provide proof.

Proof of what? I merely suggested a common misconception in the game that would lead to a lot of people swearing something works, often time contradicting one another yet very sure their experience is true/correct, when in fact it was something else entirely going on.

[ReoDobbs]

Bump.

Outside of DMN's rant about how he has a "feeling" that others had a "feeling" of something he doesn't "feel" is not classic, a lot of solid information here that should at least be addressed if not changed.

[eisley]

Sneak pulling is classic, yeah What wasn't classic is standing up while sneaking causing guaranteed memblur on mobs with backs turned to you.

[eisley]

One last try before filed under "Hopeless, pending update."

[Buellen]

So I recently returned and startedf playing my ranger again and decided to test out how sneak pulling WAS working on project 1999 Currently.

Test 1 sneak on shoot at the 4 spawn behind bandit hill in west karana level 16 ranger 100 range bow 150 range arrows. shooting face up hill shot closes bandit 3 come 4th one furthest one back does not come. Repeated this 4 times to make sure behavior was corret.

test 2 2 spawn bandits half way along road to north karana just north of the 4 spawns 4 tent bandit camp. these two always pulling no matter if i had sneak on they are simply to close together to sneak pull.

Leveled my ranger to level 17 move lake of ill omen.

Test 3 4 spawn of iksar bandits /mauraders. building half way across the valley to cabals city. two of spawns are further than other 2 spawn who stand next to each other in a doorway of ruined building.

Could easily pull singly the two farthest spawns with sneak on. AS in west karana if the mobs are close to each other you will pull them together even if you have sneak on.


As some have posted Distance between the mobs you are trying to split is what really matter when sneak pulling.

[Rygar]

I know pretty done to death, but stumbled across this post on Dolalin's archive engine. Seems to imply that hide (i.e. invis) was a factor and that no mob you are pulling in the group can see through your invis or it will fail. Basically throw an item (which disengages hide/sneak) and while it is in the air but before hitting target you need to successfully reapply. Post is dated 3/16/2001:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030414172801/http://pub102.ezboard.com/fthemagicianstowerthingstokill.showMessage?topicID =172.topic
I was reading some posts on the safehouse rogue and noticed a thread about the sneak/pulling technique. After undesrtanding how it works, I realized our bolt spells could allow the same kind of single pulling provided you have a partner that can invis.

Here is how sneak pull works : you have two or more mobs at the same spot that can't be pulled single directly but that don't see through sneak, and you have enough room to throw something at them from long range. You turn sneak/hide on, wait for it to refresh, then throw a long range weapon at one of the mobs and just after pressing the range attack hotkey you press the hide/sneak one (with hide first). If you had enough range, you become hidden before the ranged attack hits your target. Thus, the mob comes single.

[Spit]

I know pretty done to death, but stumbled across this post on Dolalin's archive engine. Seems to imply that hide (i.e. invis) was a factor and that no mob you are pulling in the group can see through your invis or it will fail. Basically throw an item (which disengages hide/sneak) and while it is in the air but before hitting target you need to successfully reapply. Post is dated 3/16/2001:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030414172801/http://pub102.ezboard.com/fthemagicianstowerthingstokill.showMessage?topicID =172.topic

Same worked with SK + CoS + Bow (CoS acting as a "sneak" or invis. Even if classic, I doubt it will ever make its way back here