RIP Chester Bennington [Archive]

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 02:16 PM

What a selfish piece of shit. Sure he had a real tough life :rolleyes:

not his fault for what he is or was. people dont kill they self if they feel they needed. he probably thought that with his success his wife and children would be well taken care of and everyone around him would be better off if he did not exist. people don't just kill theyself for no reason.

"selfish" people generally don't kill theyself because they live they life for theyself. that a stupid word though because all rational behavior is selfish. it just happen that some people have they satisfaction more tightly correlated with others.

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 02:45 PM

not his fault for what he is or was. people dont kill they self if they feel they needed. he probably thought that with his success his wife and children would be well taken care of and everyone around him would be better off if he did not exist. people don't just kill theyself for no reason.

"selfish" people generally don't kill theyself because they live they life for theyself. that a stupid word though because all rational behavior is selfish. it just happen that some people have they satisfaction more tightly correlated with others.

People do not commit suicide because they want to die, they do it because they want to no longer feel pain. I read this once, and I think this is exactly true.

It's easy to say things like "he was selfish for committing suicide," but I think this is wrong. It's just a lot more complicated than that.

Mead

07-21-2017, 02:57 PM

People do not commit suicide because they want to die, they do it because they want to no longer feel pain. I read this once, and I think this is exactly true.

It's easy to say things like "he was selfish for committing suicide," but I think this is wrong. It's just a lot more complicated than that.

I cannot agree. He had six kids, all with no father now. Although I don't know the whole story, he was financially capable of receiving any help he needed.

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 03:11 PM

I cannot agree. He had six kids, all with no father now. Although I don't know the whole story, he was financially capable of receiving any help he needed.

that why it obvious he thought things would be better off without him. it possible he not thought about anyone else, but if that the case, why he upset in the first place? if he only concerned with himself, he coulda done whatever he wanted to get happy. it very likely he felt it not matter if he were gone. unless you killing youself to spite others, you hafta believe that you death not matter, or that it be a good thing.

Baler

07-21-2017, 03:20 PM

I think the craziest part of this is how many people loved Chester.
linkin park touched so, so many people back in the day.

Triiz

07-21-2017, 03:57 PM

not his fault for what he is or was. people dont kill they self if they feel they needed. he probably thought that with his success his wife and children would be well taken care of and everyone around him would be better off if he did not exist. people don't just kill theyself for no reason.

This is a direct quote from him from earlier this year when asked why he quit a tour

"It was just too hard on my family, so I basically was like, you know what, I’ve got to stop being selfish here. When I’m not doing Linkin Park, I’ve got to be home with my babies."

Obviously knew he meant a lot to his kids, two of which are like 6 years old, still decided to kill him self. I cant pretend that doesnt make him a piece of shit.

Baler

07-21-2017, 03:59 PM

Deals with the devil weigh hard on the heart.

Cecily

07-21-2017, 04:01 PM

My heart goes out to all the bad music fans mourning his loss.

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 04:30 PM

My heart goes out to all the bad music fans mourning his loss.

Pretty sure he meant something to other people and not just music fans. I enjoyed some of their music in the early 2000s, but his death has more impact on me not because of who he was an an individual but because he was partially responsible for creating part of my life experiences.

Music/movies/art for me often coincides within my life experiences and often times musicians songs are etched within my memories of the past. This is why for me, when musicians pass or actors/actresses pass I always feel sad, it's almost as if a piece of my past has died.

As for calling Chester selfish for ending his life, this is simply not the case. It's clearly a mental health issue and being selfish has nothing to do with it.

To be considered selfish, one is doing something for ones own gain or pleasure, by definition. Obviously, when someone commits suicide, they are not doing it for any gain or personal pleasure.

fash

07-21-2017, 04:31 PM

Pulling off the ol self harm touch when you have 6 children... What a shitty thing to do.

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 04:43 PM

This is a direct quote from him from earlier this year when asked why he quit a tour

"It was just too hard on my family, so I basically was like, you know what, I’ve got to stop being selfish here. When I’m not doing Linkin Park, I’ve got to be home with my babies."

Obviously knew he meant a lot to his kids, two of which are like 6 years old, still decided to kill him self. I cant pretend that doesnt make him a piece of shit.

how do you rationalize killing youself if you don't care about anyone else? what sorta non-physical pain would make a person who only care about theyself decide to kill theyself? emotional pain never just associated with youself unless you simply lamenting the meaninglessness of you own existence. if you purely self-serving you just gonna do whatever you need to be happy. if he only care about himself, why he not just leave his family and pursue happiness elsewhere?

of course his family not better off without him, but he figure it was, or that at least it did t matter, unless he wanted to spite them, which seems unlikely based on you quote.

so yes, you right, if he kill himself while believing that his family need him, he is selfish, but then it make no sense unless he actively hate them. you think he had contempt for his family?

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 04:50 PM

how do you rationalize killing youself if you don't care about anyone else? what sorta non-physical pain would make a person who only care about theyself decide to kill theyself? emotional pain never just associated with youself unless you simply lamenting the meaninglessness of you own existence. if you purely self-serving you just gonna do whatever you need to be happy. if he only care about himself, why he not just leave his family and pursue happiness elsewhere?

of course his family not better off without him, but he figure it was, or that at least it did t matter, unless he wanted to spite them, which seems unlikely based on you quote.

so yes, you right, if he kill himself while believing that his family need him, he is selfish, but then it make no sense unless he actively hate them. you think he had contempt for his family?

People just trolling for giggles now or writing with no sense of logic to their arguments.

I think it's just easier for people to say when someone commits suicide they are being selfish than it is to actually put some thought into the entirety of the situation.

How about the little 14 year old girl who committed suicide after being abused for years by a family member, was she being selfish too?

No logic at all with this argument that suicide is selfish. It has nothing to do with a person being selfish.

ZiggyTheMuss

07-21-2017, 04:51 PM

My heart goes out to all the bad music fans mourning his loss.

I'm not even a fan of his music but I can respect his talent and his ability that was recognized by other musicians who I am a fan of. RIP to a talented musician. When your fat ass leaves this world you won't even leave a ripple.

Cecily

07-21-2017, 04:55 PM

I'm sorry the bad music you like was influenced by his bad music.

Cecily

07-21-2017, 05:00 PM

Shit that's a fucking good idea.

fash

07-21-2017, 05:05 PM

People just trolling for giggles now or writing with no sense of logic to their arguments.

I think it's just easier for people to say when someone commits suicide they are being selfish than it is to actually put some thought into the entirety of the situation.

*Draws false equivalence between suicide of 14 year old girl abused by family and suicide of 40 year old father of 6 children*

No logic at all with this argument that suicide is selfish.

chortled

Cecily

07-21-2017, 05:16 PM

On mourning the death of a musician we all wish had hung around a little longer.

I'm not even a fan of his music but I can respect his talent and his ability that was recognized by other musicians who I am a fan of. RIP to a talented musician. When your fat ass leaves this world you won't even leave a ripple.

Reaction to a previously upcoming major Oklahoma / Kansas tornado outbreak.

I don't know anyone there because I'm not white trash.

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 05:16 PM

chortled

So you feel that people can't suffer pain from abuse/past abuse rendering them with such deep feelings of despair and anguish that they have thoughts of suicide even as adults?

His monetary worth had nothing to do with what he dealt with internally, no idea why you brought that up. I guess in your mind, you envy his perceived wealth and feel angry and bitter he threw it all away out of his selfishness?

Oh well, I can't expect everyone to share the same perception or thoughts on topics. I always find such conversations enlightening regardless.

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 05:21 PM

I don't think fash at all jealous or bitter with him. It that fash understand very clearly that he (fash) is needed and cannot comprehend how someone could possibly think they are not needed especially when they have a very important role such as being a father. it not malicious on his part, it just a matter of perception crippling understanding.

fash

07-21-2017, 05:31 PM

So you feel that people can't suffer pain from abuse/past abuse rendering them with such deep feelings of despair and anguish that they have thoughts of suicide even as adults?

Sure, people can suffer and have deep feelings, as you say.

His monetary worth had nothing to do with what he dealt with internally, no idea why you brought that up. I guess in your mind, you envy his perceived wealth and feel angry and bitter he threw it all away out of his selfishness?

I didn't bring that up. You just did though.

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 05:32 PM

Evia

07-21-2017, 05:44 PM

also lhance, if someone really do understand that they death going to destroy others and they still kill theyself because some other deep pain, then they really is selfish. that dont trivialize they pain, but they are placing they own interest above others. i just don't believe that most people do that. most have whatever pain they have and don't believe they death gonna affect anyone in any significant or irreparable way.

Suicide isn't selfish. That's so fucking ridiculous. Nobody has any idea what someone is dealing with, or thinking, leading up to committing suicide. It's all speculation. You expecting someone else to hang around when they're miserable and would rather kill themselves, just so you're not crushed, is what's selfish. I can't stand that perception on suicide. IT'S THEIR LIFE / THEIR CHOICE. The only selfish motive is the one that expects them to stick around FOR YOU or SOMEONE ELSE.

Ps. Regardless I'm sad to see Chester go. He was iconic for kids of my generation.

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 05:49 PM

Suicide isn't selfish. That's so fucking ridiculous. You expecting someone else to hang around when they're miserable and would rather kill themselves, just so you're not crushed, is what's selfish. I can't stand that perception on suicide. IT'S THEIR LIFE / THEIR CHOICE. The only selfish motive is the one that expects them to stick around FOR YOU or SOMEONE ELSE.

Ps. Regardless I'm sad to see Chester go. He was iconic for kids of my generation.

you need to learn to set aside you feelings at least temporarily if you ever wanna learn. you done this before too. go back through all my posts or even just the one you quoted and you see you being dumb

fash

07-21-2017, 05:53 PM

IT'S THEIR LIFE / THEIR CHOICE. The only selfish motive is the one that expects them to stick around FOR YOU or SOMEONE ELSE.

Those damn children. How dare they depend on their father!

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 05:54 PM

also lhance, if someone really do understand that they death going to destroy others and they still kill theyself because some other deep pain, then they really is selfish. that dont trivialize they pain, but they are placing they own interest above others. i just don't believe that most people do that. most have whatever pain they have and don't believe they death gonna affect anyone in any significant or irreparable way.

No one knows exactly what the person is aware of when they commit suicide except for that person so hard to theorize on this.

I also think that any thought about their own death and how it will affect others is so far out of their mind it's just not something they thinking about.

It has to be some massive anguish and sadness for a person to reach a point where they mentally circumvent the innate survival instincts we are born with to end their own life.

This is not being selfish, this is about being at a point where they honestly feel they better off dead.

It's not about others, how it will make others feel, it's all about ending a pain that none of us can fathom or else we'd have done or tried to do what Chester did.

Itap

07-21-2017, 05:55 PM

Havent listened to Linkin Park in probably 15 years but sucks to hear Chester off'd himself

Matthalas Winterheart

07-21-2017, 06:07 PM

Troll detected.

I started the entire thread...That makes me a troll.. Yup. Im pissed, because of all the hateful, poorly thought out comments.

Matthalas Winterheart

07-21-2017, 06:10 PM

Maybe you should gain some empathy and realize that people deal with tragedy in different ways. ie making light of it

Dipshit.

Ok. you're right. I'm so very sorry. I hope you can forgive me.

Pokesan

07-21-2017, 06:12 PM

are we sure it wasn't on accident? ;)

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 06:13 PM

No one knows exactly what the person is aware of when they commit suicide except for that person so hard to theorize on this.

no need to know what they thinking. i said IF and i meant it and it true. i not saying it universal.

I also think that any thought about their own death and how it will affect others is so far out of their mind it's just not something they thinking about.

fair enough, it maybe that way for some, but manh suicides are pre-mediated, having been contemplated for months or years. that a lotta time to think about what it mean if you die.

It has to be some massive anguish and sadness for a person to reach a point where they mentally circumvent the innate survival instincts we are born with to end their own life.

This is not being selfish, this is about being at a point where they honestly feel they better off dead.

It's not about others, how it will make others feel, it's all about ending a pain that none of us can fathom or else we'd have done or tried to do what Chester did.

this part almost make me feel liek you trolling :c you said before the definition of "selfish" is doing something for you own gain and above you acknowledge that people who commit auicide feel they would be better off dead and have no concern for others. that is selfish. that don't mean it not sad or that they wasn't suffering.

I don't believe most people have hat disregard though by the time they reach the act. it occur to you before that that you death gonna affect others and the only ah you proceed is if you don't care or if you genuinely believe you not needed and it don't matter to the world if you dead.

Triiz

07-21-2017, 06:23 PM

I think it's just easier for people to say when someone commits suicide they are being selfish than it is to actually put some thought into the entirety of the situation.

No, it's easier to say when someone commits suicide it's selfish when it fucks over 6 children. If the guy had such a terrible life, maybe he shouldn't have continuously produced children.

People do not commit suicide because they want to die, they do it because they want to no longer feel pain. I read this once, and I think this is exactly true.

You realize this is basically the definition of selfish right? He no longer wants to feel pain, so he end kills himself ensuring his children a lifetime of pain. How can that be described as anything but selfish?

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 06:25 PM

this part almost make me feel liek you trolling :c you said before the definition of "selfish" is doing something for you own gain and above you acknowledge that people who commit auicide feel they would be better off dead and have no concern for others. that is selfish. that don't mean it not sad or that they wasn't suffering.

Why would I troll about this? Maybe I am not clear in explaining my thoughts on it well.

My point is I believe when someone commits suicide they lack the ability to even begin considering other peoples thoughts or feelings, it's not due to some conscious effort on their part to ignore how others feel it's a matter of internal and mental anguish that clouds and destroys any chance of them being able to consider such details.

If a person consciously thought to themselves about how their death would negatively impact everyone else in the world, thought to themselves who cares, and really believed in their mind that their death would bring them some sort of personal gain then i would say yes that person is being selfish. I just find it impossible that someone on the brink of suicide has the healthy normal thought process to put all of that into perspective.

As for contemplating suicide for years, planning it etc., I think it's more of a matter of each thought or attempt being it's own separate mental journey in itself. The mood lifts, they reutrn back to "normal" healthy thinking and the thoughts of suicide leave. when the mood or thoughts come back, it's just like starting on a new hellish trip and has nothing to do with past episodes of suicidal thoughts or attempts.

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 06:28 PM

No, it's easier to say when someone commits suicide it's selfish when it fucks over 6 children. If the guy had such a terrible life, maybe he shouldn't have continuously produced children.

You realize this is basically the definition of selfish right? He no longer wants to feel pain, so he end kills himself ensuring his children a lifetime of pain. How can that be described as anything but selfish?

You are talking about mental illness, and there's a difference between a mentally sound person making cognitive decisions that are logical and someone that is clinically depressed who commits suicide.

When he killed himself, I would gather Chester was not of sound mind or thinking as you and I are now.

loramin

07-21-2017, 06:28 PM

People do not kill themselves without compounding factors. Either your brain is physically sick, or it was broken by the environment (eg. being gay in a town where everyone hates gays). Suicide is a symptom of mental illness, the same way your face freezing is a symptom of a stroke.

Chester, Robin Williams, Marilyn Monroe, and almost all other famous suicide victims obviously had nothing immediate in their life causing depression: that basically guarantees that they either had a mental illness or had such a troubling childhood that they were damaged beyond repair.

Either way, we should feel sorry for them the same way we feel sorry for a cancer victim: both die because of an illness (and in both cases it's an illness that can either be inherited or gained through shit that happened to you in life). It's not "their choice", because by definition if your brain (the thing making choices) isn't working properly then you obviously can't make a true choice.

fash

07-21-2017, 06:38 PM

I agree. Suicide victims have no agency.

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 06:38 PM

Why would I troll about this? Maybe I am not clear in explaining my thoughts on it well.

My point is I believe when someone commits suicide they lack the ability to even begin considering other peoples thoughts or feelings, it's not due to some conscious effort on their part to ignore how others feel it's a matter of internal and mental anguish that clouds and destroys any chance of them being able to consider such details.

If a person consciously thought to themselves about how their death would negatively impact everyone else in the world, thought to themselves who cares, and really believed in their mind that their death would bring them some sort of personal gain then i would say yes that person is being selfish. I just find it impossible that someone on the brink of suicide has the healthy normal thought process to put all of that into perspective.

As for contemplating suicide for years, planning it etc., I think it's more of a matter of each thought or attempt being it's own separate mental journey in itself. The mood lifts, they reutrn back to "normal" healthy thinking and the thoughts of suicide leave. when the mood or thoughts come back, it's just like starting on a new hellish trip and has nothing to do with past episodes of suicidal thoughts or attempts.

im sorry, I didn't think you'd be trolling just felt that way, because i didn't quite follow. Ty for expanding ^^ I think we mostly agree. it an interesting perspective though on it being more impulsive. I sure it that way for some, but it not for others. but even for those who it not impulsive, i don't think it generally selfish, I think they just made it past the final obstacle by reasoning that they not needed. everyone needed or can be needed though. just not everyone realize it.

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 06:45 PM

im sorry, I didn't think you'd be trolling just felt that way, because i didn't quite follow. Ty for expanding ^^ I think we mostly agree. it an interesting perspective though on it being more impulsive. I sure it that way for some, but it not for others. but even for those who it not impulsive, i don't think it generally selfish, I think they just made it past the final obstacle by reasoning that they not needed. everyone needed or can be needed though. just not everyone realize it.

yeahhh, that's a good word for it. Impulsive. that's how I view it. I mean sure, these periods of depression can be for days or even weeks etc., but I really think each manic period is its own trip so-to-speak.

loramin

07-21-2017, 06:50 PM

I agree. Suicide victims have no agency.

Can't tell if this is flippant or serious, but in case it's the former I'll just put it like this: where does agency come from? The brain right? And the brain is just an organ, the same as your heart or lungs.

If your lungs aren't working properly because you're sick or because you're drowning, you can't breath. No one blames lung cancer victims for having trouble breathing.

Similarly, if the organ responsible for making choices isn't working properly then you're going to have less agency, just like someone with a collapsed lung has less breath. Blaming someone for dying from a mental illness just means you are denying that the brain is an organ which can get sick the same as your heart or lungs.

maskedmelonpai

07-21-2017, 07:01 PM

Can't tell if this is flippant or serious, so I'll just put it like this: where does agency come from? The brain right? And the brain is just an organ, the same as your heart or lungs.

If your lungs aren't working properly because you're sick or because you're drowning, you can't breath. No one blames lung cancer victims for having trouble breathing.

Similarly, if the organ responsible for making choices isn't working properly then you're going to have less agency, just like someone with a collapsed lung has less breath. Blaming someone for dying from a mental illness is as stupid as blaming someone for dying from a physical illness.

this a interesting perspective. i question though how many have impaired decision making. it a matter of perspective. they just got a particularly dismal one and one that not easily righted.

it a very good point that if you brain not working you have less agency. this a point lotta people just don't get. hurr willpower! if you not in control you thoughts it difficult to direct you action. I not thoughts about it with regard to suicide though. gonna hafta think on it more.

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 07:01 PM

Can't tell if this is flippant or serious

he's being flippantly trollish.

Lhancelot

07-21-2017, 07:09 PM

it a very good point that if you brain not working you have less agency. this a point lotta people just don't get.

This right here.

Healthy minded people can't grasp or understand that someone dealing with mental illness simply lack the cognition and thinking process of a healthy/normal brain so making clear logical decisions is quite difficult when mentally ill.

that's this whole conversation in a nutshell too.

People that have never gone through it, or not known someone who has gone through mental illness will struggle to empathize with the actions of someone that is mentally ill.

Cecily

07-22-2017, 07:57 AM

Ahldagor

07-22-2017, 08:01 AM

Lhancelot

07-22-2017, 10:37 AM

You're making a lot of noise suggesting sucide means a mentally ill brain and not accounting for it being a respectable, logical choice. It was a decision, most probably mulled upon for years and finally happened. Oh he was mentally ill takes away from whatever shred of dignity remains to the person. If you aren't suicidal and can't relate, pigeonholing someone as mentally ill makes sense, but that's crazy. Bunch of people with no idea what they aren't talking about.

Yeah you right, I am sure he was thinking logically and of quite sound mind when he did it.

He had a history of mental illness that was documented, but I am sure in this particular incident he was thinking quite clearly and was feeling really healthy and normal. :rolleyes:

You poked fun at his death, ridiculed people that enjoy his music, and now I am supposed to try to take your contradictory post seriously and believe you write it in an attempt to have a logical adult conversation about this topic?

Nah.

You just being a disrespectful nasty little troll. I think trolling is fine but not when you do it with disrespectful comments making light of a situation that others are deeply affected by such as this one.

Not cool, dude.

Pokesan

07-22-2017, 10:44 AM

Yeah you right, I am sure he was thinking logically and of quite sound mind when he did it.

He had a history of mental illness that was documented, but I am sure in this particular incident he was thinking quite clearly and was feeling really healthy and normal. :rolleyes:

You poked fun at his death, ridiculed people that enjoy his music, and now I am supposed to try to take your contradictory post seriously and believe you write it in an attempt to have a logical adult conversation about this topic?

Nah.

You just being a disrespectful nasty little troll. I think trolling is fine but not when you do it with disrespectful comments making light of a situation that others are deeply affected by such as this one.

Not cool, dude.

based on previous comments and demographics, it's a safe bet Cecily is better acquainted with the topic than you. Dismissing her as a troll isn't helpful or useful.

loramin

07-22-2017, 11:36 AM

Oh he was mentally ill takes away from whatever shred of dignity remains to the person.

Does telling a cancer patient they have cancer take away their dignity? Mental illness has a stigma because it's "mental", but the reality is it's just another physical organ failure that people have no control over, and blaming them for an illness they can't control seems a lot more undignified to me.

If you aren't suicidal and can't relate, pigeonholing someone as mentally ill makes sense, but that's crazy. Bunch of people with no idea what they aren't talking about.

I've been checked in to a hospital mental ward ... twice. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't because I made bad decisions, it was because some chemicals in my brain decided to go haywire out of the blue one day. Once I got some medicine from a doctor to balance out the chemicals I got my life back ... exactly the same as sufferers of other (non-mental) diseases.

So yeah, I know a little bit about having your body turn on you in a way that makes you act crazy (or, in particular, suicidal). And I know that pretending someone has agency when they don't is as cruel as blaming someone who dies of thirst because they were too weak from malaria to go get water. People suffering from any disease, physical or mental, deserve compassion ... it just might take a bit more empathy to have that same compassion for crazy people.

Lune

07-22-2017, 11:50 AM

Does telling a cancer patient they have cancer take away their dignity? Mental illness has a stigma because it's "mental", but the reality is it's just another physical organ failure that people have no control over, and blaming them for an illness they can't control seems a lot more undignified to me.

I've been checked in to a hospital mental ward ... twice. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't because I made bad decisions, it was because some chemicals in my brain decided to go haywire out of the blue one day. Once I got some medicine from a doctor to balance out the chemicals I got my life back ... exactly the same as sufferers of other (non-mental) diseases.

So yeah, I know a little bit about having your body turn on you in a way that makes you act crazy (or, in particular, suicidal). And I know that pretending someone has agency when they don't is as cruel as blaming someone who dies of thirst because they were too weak from malaria to go get water. People suffering from any disease, physical or mental, deserve compassion ... it just might take a bit more empathy to have that same compassion for crazy people.

Who says suicide has to be caused by an illness? It can be a perfectly logical and ethical choice and, I'd argue, a basic human right. The fact that you equate suicidal with crazy speaks to the perversion of humanist values in our society by religious ones.

I mean, when suicidal ideation or any other non-normative thinking would be cause for a diagnosis of 'mental illness', of course suicide is almost always going to be associated with mental illness. But when you look at it closely it's far more of a value judgment than it is clinical pathology. It's deviant behavior more than disease. And that's suicide I'm talking about, not clinical depression, although they are related.

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”

loramin

07-22-2017, 11:54 AM

Lune

07-22-2017, 12:02 PM

P.S. I've also had Bell's Palsy once, which is when an infection near a cranial nerve makes half of your face paralyzed for months, sort of like being a stroke victim. With both the Bell's Palsy and my mental illness the exact same thing happened: something went physically wrong in my brain.

But, no one ever said that I was making a choice to have my face paralyzed, or blamed me for my right eye going dry because I couldn't blink.

Consider a 75 year old woman (my grandmother) who lived a rich and fulfilling life, and stared down the barrel of totally untreatable Alzheimer's disease. Her brain progressively rotted and robbed her of her very humanity before she died in agony, placing an unimaginable financial and emotional burden on her caregivers. She muttered "I want to die" for years, right up til the very end.

If I were ever in that situation I'd kill myself. And it would be the right decision.

loramin

07-22-2017, 12:03 PM

Who says suicide has to be caused by an illness? It can be a perfectly logical and ethical choice and, I'd argue, a basic human right. The fact that you equate suicidal with crazy speaks to the perversion of humanist values in our society by religious ones.

I mean, when suicidal ideation or any other non-normative thinking would be cause for a diagnosis of 'mental illness', of course suicide is almost always going to be associated with mental illness. But when you look at it closely it's far more of a value judgment than it is clinical pathology. It's deviant behavior more than disease. And that's suicide I'm talking about, not clinical depression, although they are related.

You are totally right: there are 100% rational reasons to kill yourself, like "someone has your child and will murder them if you don't", or "you have a painful terminal illness with no cure". But the vast majority of suicides either come from a physical failure in the body, or extreme environmental conditions (eg. being raped) .. or both.

Jimjam

07-22-2017, 12:06 PM

The story checks out by your avatar. Left eye surrounded by blue tears, right eye dry as a nun.

Another thing to consider with suicide 'victims' is that they often have low self esteem and a world view in which their life is unimportant to anyone. They may believe their close ones will be better off without them.

In their mind their death could be an altruistic martyrdom, not a selfish act.

Anyway, RIP Chester, my thoughts with his children and so on, and more broadly with all those having to deal with these issues or the fallout from them.

loramin

07-22-2017, 12:14 PM

ARANGA: What we really think that is happening in suicide is that the person is unable to inhibit the desire to go ahead and kill himself or herself.

TRUDEAU: After a decade of work studying over 175 brains, the research group in New York has found that the serotonin braking system is defective in many suicide victims. Their brains are anatomically different than the brains of people who have died of natural causes. Specifically, Aranga has discovered a malfunction in the area of the brain right above the eyes called the pre-frontal cortex, the place where executive decisions are made dictating what feelings we will act upon and what feelings we will inhibit.

...

TRUDEAU: Another team member, neuroscientist Mark Underwood (ph), is looking at a different part of the brains of suicide victims, at the back, an area called the brain stem. Enlisting the power of the computer, Underwood counts the number of serotonin nerve cells. There too, the serotonin system looks faulty.

MARK UNDERWOOD, NEUROSCIENTIST, NEW YORK STATE PSYCHIATRIC INSTITUTE: We have found hat there are approximately 30 percent more of these serotonin neurons in the suicide victims than in the controls. To find more neurons would suggest something very fundamental, such that you may in fact be born with your biological risk for suicide behavior.
Science!

The story checks out by your avatar. Left eye surrounded by blue tears, right eye dry as a nun.
:)

Lune

07-22-2017, 12:25 PM

"you have a painful terminal illness with no cure"

Like untreated major depression?

Remember, for many of these people, treatment isn't realistic. Most can't afford it, half of it doesn't work, and countless more face an unimaginable social stigma, including the prospect of losing their job (military, public safety).

It sounds to me like the proper course of action is to advocate for better treatment and social understanding, rather than try to rob these people of what may very well be their only way out of suffering.

Originally Posted by http://www.npr.org/programs/death/980429.death.html
ARANGA: What we really think that is happening in suicide is that the person is unable to inhibit the desire to go ahead and kill himself or herself.

TRUDEAU: After a decade of work studying over 175 brains, the research group in New York has found that the serotonin braking system is defective in many suicide victims. Their brains are anatomically different than the brains of people who have died of natural causes. Specifically, Aranga has discovered a malfunction in the area of the brain right above the eyes called the pre-frontal cortex, the place where executive decisions are made dictating what feelings we will act upon and what feelings we will inhibit.

...

TRUDEAU: Another team member, neuroscientist Mark Underwood (ph), is looking at a different part of the brains of suicide victims, at the back, an area called the brain stem. Enlisting the power of the computer, Underwood counts the number of serotonin nerve cells. There too, the serotonin system looks faulty.

MARK UNDERWOOD, NEUROSCIENTIST, NEW YORK STATE PSYCHIATRIC INSTITUTE: We have found hat there are approximately 30 percent more of these serotonin neurons in the suicide victims than in the controls. To find more neurons would suggest something very fundamental, such that you may in fact be born with your biological risk for suicide behavior.

It's socially irresponsible of them as clinicians to attribute a difference in the structure and function of serotonergic neurons to "faultiness", when it could very well be that these people have a clearer conception of the abstract reality of their situation, which is the entire point of the prefrontal cortex in the first place-- abstract, executive cognitions without interference from primordial fight or flight or survival impulses.

Oh wait, they aren't clinicians, they are neuroscientists.

That's not to mention we have NO IDEA how the serotonergic system works at a detailed level and it's totally irresponsible to make the kind of claim they're insinuating.

Ahldagor

07-22-2017, 12:34 PM

Danke Lune and Cecily.

loramin

07-22-2017, 12:36 PM

Oh wait, they aren't clinicians, they are neuroscientists.

That's not to mention we have NO IDEA how the serotonergic system works at a detailed level and it's totally irresponsible to make the kind of claim they're insinuating.

Is there something wrong with people who studied biology in college for four years, then studied neurobiology in particular for 3+ years, then made a career out of studying nerobiology? And what exactly is your comprehensive neurobiology background that allows you to so easily refute their work, despite (presumably) never having read any of their published papers?

Mead

07-22-2017, 12:50 PM

I'm sure Chester Bennington learned many coping mechanisms in his time as a musician, drug user, and alcoholic to combat his depression and past abuse. We are most certain he was of sound mind when he made the decision to kill himself.

Lune

07-22-2017, 12:53 PM

Is there something wrong with people who studied biology in college for four years, then studied neurobiology in particular for 3+ years, then made a career out of studying nerobiology? And what exactly is your comprehensive neurobiology background that allows you to so easily refute their work, despite (presumably) never having read any of their published papers?

I'm not refuting their work. Their publication is in finding altered serotinin levels in cases of death by suicide, which I find interesting. What I do take issue with is their manner of speculation in the NPR interview about the altered serotinin levels being "faulty" (read: pathological) rather than different, and their overreaching characterization of the role of serotinin in human physiology.

As neuroscientists they are qualified to examine the differences in serotinin in the different tissues and make physiological postulations regarding that. What they are not qualified to do is create a clinical paradigm for the serotonergic system that still lacks understanding even among scientists who study it specifically from an internal medicine and endocrinology perspective.

There could be any number of causes for the different serotinin levels and their publication elucidates exactly none of them. It could very well be that the emotional trauma leading up to suicide causes an accumulation of serotonin, rather than it being a chronic presentation throughout the disease-course in a suicidal individual. I'm just very wary of assigning cause in publications like these especially when the authors don't do it explicitly themselves in the publication.

Ahldagor

07-22-2017, 12:53 PM

loramin

07-22-2017, 01:08 PM

Questioning credentials is ad homine laramin. You bought the placebo of mental health treatment, glad it worked for you, but you're massively generalizing in your notions of the effectiveness of treatments from your personal experience. You should read "The Fountain of Quiet" by Keith Waldrop.

Yeah I did high school speech and debate too :p

But look, neurobiology is not something you can understand from taking a high school class. I don't feel any more qualified to make claims about it than I do about architecture, programming automated cars, or quantum mechanics. So when you're discussing topics which require expert knowledge, you present the opinions of experts.

But when I did exactly that, the refutation was basically "nah, I know better". Now if the person making that refutation has a strong background in the field themselves then that's relevant. Otherwise it's just a layperson who doesn't have anywhere near the understanding of an expert discounting an expert's opinion without basis.

loramin

07-22-2017, 01:15 PM

I'm just very wary of assigning cause in publications like these especially when the authors don't do it explicitly themselves in the publication.

Ok, I do take your point, and people can make all sorts of crazy claims based on studies. But I wasn't doing that, I was quoting the opinions of the experts themselves.

Whether or not their research, at this moment in time, can conclusively prove that suicide is X% determined at birth is irrelevant. What is relevant is that we have several very smart people who have devoted their lives to to studying this topic and they're all in agreement. I trust their opinion (well, until I see a better supported counter opinion).

And on that note, got any scientific publication, interview with scientists, etc. where they have evidence or opinions that most suicides are just (biologically) normal people offing themselves? It would honestly help convince me I'm ascribing too much to biology.

Cecily

07-22-2017, 02:42 PM

Lol I had a "chemical imbalance". Well maybe you're just fucking different. Thank god there's a medication for it.

Fasttimes

07-22-2017, 02:51 PM

Let's get back on topic. Finally we get rid of some bad music. If deaths come in 3s please take another shitty band.

NorseGod

07-22-2017, 03:08 PM

linkin park was horrible, but suicide is sad.

Lhancelot

07-22-2017, 04:49 PM

based on previous comments and demographics, it's a safe bet Cecily is better acquainted with the topic than you. Dismissing her as a troll isn't helpful or useful.

I dismiss her earlier comments as troll (which they were) and as far as measuring up my demographics and comments to Cecily's on the topic of mental health to prove who is more acquainted on the topic isn't necessary. We can share perspectives and discussions without pulling out the epeen measurer I hope?

I aint here to prove my knowledge is greater than someone else, I was simply expressing my opinion on the matter. My opinion derives from personal experiences and working in a field that put me in direct contact with mental health patients for over 13 years, so take that as you may.

I can recognize that topics like this are very complex and often times there's no "right" answer to them, and if someone is giving an honest perspective I always listen to them with open ears.

This exchange with Cecily began with flippant insults on Cecily's behalf and ended with a snarky know-it-all attitude so taking any post in this thread on this topic with any seriousness written by Cecily is a bit hard to do.

Pokesan

07-22-2017, 05:15 PM

I dismiss her earlier comments as troll (which they were) and as far as measuring up my demographics and comments to Cecily's on the topic of mental health to prove who is more acquainted on the topic isn't necessary. We can share perspectives and discussions without pulling out the epeen measurer I hope?

I aint here to prove my knowledge is greater than someone else, I was simply expressing my opinion on the matter. My opinion derives from personal experiences and working in a field that put me in direct contact with mental health patients for over 13 years, so take that as you may.

.

thought we not measuring peens bud?

you have a PM :)

khanable

07-22-2017, 06:19 PM

confession

i just listened to their newest album and liked it

AzzarTheGod

07-22-2017, 07:00 PM

I'm not refuting their work. Their publication is in finding altered serotinin levels in cases of death by suicide, which I find interesting. What I do take issue with is their manner of speculation in the NPR interview about the altered serotinin levels being "faulty" (read: pathological) rather than different, and their overreaching characterization of the role of serotinin in human physiology.

As neuroscientists they are qualified to examine the differences in serotinin in the different tissues and make physiological postulations regarding that. What they are not qualified to do is create a clinical paradigm for the serotonergic system that still lacks understanding even among scientists who study it specifically from an internal medicine and endocrinology perspective.

There could be any number of causes for the different serotinin levels and their publication elucidates exactly none of them. It could very well be that the emotional trauma leading up to suicide causes an accumulation of serotonin, rather than it being a chronic presentation throughout the disease-course in a suicidal individual. I'm just very wary of assigning cause in publications like these especially when the authors don't do it explicitly themselves in the publication.

havent read this yet but im hawking u boy

im in a vendetta kind of mood

Cecily

07-22-2017, 09:13 PM

This exchange with Cecily began with flippant insults on Cecily's behalf and ended with a snarky know-it-all attitude so taking any post in this thread on this topic with any seriousness written by Cecily is a bit hard to do.

Yeah. I don't like the band. Don't really care if he died and have to confess I'm kind of happy they can't put out anymore music. Although the sad irony is I really did like the last single all their fans hated precisely because it didn't sound like Linkin Park. He IS kind of a dick to kill himself with 6 children and he has every right to do so. And as someone dealing with wanting to die every day for roughly the past 20 years, I don't appreciate forum armchair mental health professionals performing a postmortem analysis of how healthy his brain probably was. You don't know what you're talking about unless you've personally experienced life from this perspective. In closing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VPIQJkoTx8).

Cecily

07-22-2017, 10:28 PM

confession

i just listened to their newest album and liked it

Yeah, I think I'm gonna give this one a fair listen to. I'm confident the older albums are tweenwave emo bullshit, but Heavy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dmQ3QWpy1Q), the song the LP fans hated always hit me real hard. "Holding on, why is everything so heavy?" which, lets be real, is the whole song is nonetheless a powerful and succinct way to describe what it's like being on the verge of suicide. It's put me in tears a few times.

Lhancelot

07-22-2017, 10:39 PM

thought we not measuring peens bud?

you have a PM :)

I think we all have expressed our opinions quite well here, nothing more I need to say on the matter.

Matthalas Winterheart

07-22-2017, 10:51 PM

Yeah, I think I'm gonna give this one a fair listen to. I'm confident the older albums are tweenwave emo bullshit, but Heavy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dmQ3QWpy1Q), the song the LP fans hated always hit me real hard. "Holding on, why is everything so heavy?" which, lets be real, is the whole song is nonetheless a powerful and succinct way to describe what it's like being on the verge of suicide. It's put me in tears a few times.

This song has also been one that has had a profound effect on me. It is such a different sound that what their fans and the industry have grown accustomed to.

Pokesan

07-22-2017, 10:55 PM

are we sure it wasn't on accident? ;)

update: ive decided to call this "beltquest"

Priceline

07-22-2017, 11:21 PM

I've noticed over the course of several exchanges that you're not quite able to understand everything I'm putting down. Misinterpreting my meanings and unable to grasp changes in my tone, especially in regards to how serious I am about something. I honestly think you're an idiot and that doesn't begin to adequately describe the depths to which I loathe you. Please stop interacting with me. It's not fun anymore and I dare say it never was.

QFT

Cecily

07-22-2017, 11:22 PM

Haha. Too late! Switched that to a PM. Who wants to guess who that was to?

Priceline

07-22-2017, 11:27 PM

AzzarTheGod

07-23-2017, 12:10 AM

update: ive decided to call this "beltquest"

pras

AzzarTheGod

07-23-2017, 12:24 AM

Consider a 75 year old woman (my grandmother) who lived a rich and fulfilling life, and stared down the barrel of totally untreatable Alzheimer's disease. Her brain progressively rotted and robbed her of her very humanity before she died in agony, placing an unimaginable financial and emotional burden on her caregivers. She muttered "I want to die" for years, right up til the very end.

If I were ever in that situation I'd kill myself. And it would be the right decision.

Not hawking u nemore pal I read some of the thread and ordered a stand-down of my neurotransmitters

katrik

07-23-2017, 02:41 AM

LP was a big part of middle school for me, and my first concert. Meteora dropped my freshmen year of high school. Even though I never bought anything after "minutes to midnight'' they still hold a special place in my heart, so.. this one hurts. Thoughts and prayers to Chester and his family. Suicide sucks : (

AzzarTheGod

07-23-2017, 03:22 AM

Never been a LP fan, I wasn't an angsty teen anymore when they got popular I guess. Bummer for those who digged the music tho.

Cobain and Stayley were the ones that hit the hardest for me. The ragiest screamiest power ballads don't hold a candle to something like this (https://youtu.be/Fm72DPJCX58), imo.

Chester was a legend because he could scream in harmony and hit different notes with his screams. Theres other singers people have pointed out from the 70's and 80's (allegedly Freddie Mercury is one) that could also do this.

But Chester was much more of a vocal talent than say...Marilyn Manson.

No knock on Manson he is an amazing artist and I've appreciated his work esp thru Eat me Drink me. I haven't checked his softer stuff because as you said, if you aren't an angsty teen anymore its like why bother? I'm not really big on checking an artists growth or that whole bit. But I also don't care much about re-checking the growth of friends who sucked or I out-grew--temporarily leaving them.

I guess he put an album out where he evolved because the producer was this married with kids guy who kept telling him he wasn't going to allow him to write a manifesto of anger against society. He told Marilyn if he kept coming to the studio with lyrics about subject matter that he will just keep throwing them in the trash. Marilyn later said it was unlike any working process he had ever participated in, and he appreciated the opportunity.

I'll probably listen to it at some point before Manson dies in the next year or two. (CALLING IT)