Nerfing Insta-Click Hate Items (Classic Evidence)

[Rygar]

As I was reading the patch notes I came across this little gem, patched February 21, 2001:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010221a.html

We reduced the amount of hate that can be caused by a proc. Due to the high proc rates at upper levels, the amount of hate generated from procs, and the spells that were selected for those procs, made keeping the attention of the creature much too easy a task for the tank. Simply, it nearly eliminated the challenge of keeping a foes attention at levels above 50.

To me, it is crystal clear that they wanted to make agro management a challenge on the raid scene for tanks. The intention is clear in the above note.

If it was widespread knowledge during Velious that raids were loaded up with Mallets to dump into a raid mob and have everyone engage / heal immediately then it would have been hit with a nerf in my opinion.

I humbly ask that you consider nerfing all agro management clickies for tanks to help bring more balance to the raid scene.

Off the top of my head I can think of Midnight Mallet, Root Nets, Puppet Strings for instant clicks (not sure if Ivandyr's Hoops still generate agro). To a lesser degree there are other items such as the Ball of Yarn thing from Stonebrunt mountains (snare) and Bio Orb (Blinding Luminance), these both have casting times but can be used to generate initial agro. I think there is even an item out there that has charges of Engulfing Darkness but I can't think of the name.

Regardless, the point is if an item is being used as a work around to manage agro, I think a serious look should be given to nerf it.

How can this be done? I'm not exactly sure on how the agro system is coded. If a mob is listed as immune to that particular spell, does it still generate hate? If not (or very minimum hate like 1pt), just make raid mobs unresistable to those types of spells. This would still let the items be used in group situations and even during lesser raids like HoT / Sky / Hate / Fear / Growth.

Possibly could make it so any melee class does not generate more than 1pt of hate for using these items on raid mobs. I say melee and not tanks, because it could still be exploited to hold agro during a riposte discipline or something like that.

A simple solution is to make those items unusable in any boss mob zone (such as Ivandyr Hoop not being usable in VP). Even just preventing them from being used in VP / Western Wastes / ToV / Dragon Necropolis / Plane of Growth / Kael / Skyshrine / Icewell Keep brings back a lot of balance.

Implementing this nerf would most definitely restore a better classic feel to the game, and to some degree would make raiding slightly more challenging. I can imagine more wipes as a result since tank swapping would be more difficult for warriors, some clerics may get wrecked on engage during CHeal chains, and a shaman getting a slow resist will be plastered (even successful slow would cause them to be sacrificed most likely, very classic!).

A lot of naysayers will say, "LOL, not classic" but I think they know this goes against the feel of EQ and takes away from the intended game mechanics. You've already set precedence with the Ivandyr's Hoop nerf as it trivialized raid mobs, and even limited the PBAoE number of targets to bring in line with what systems of the day could handle.

I humbly ask you consider this change.

[Daldaen]

Midnight Mallet, Wooly Silk Spider Net, Slowstone Amber, Puppet Strings, Bladestopper, Braided Coldain Beard, Prayers of Life, Mystic Cloak.

These are the main instant clickies that see use for aggro generation on P99.

Another issue is that things like root and dispells generate too much aggro, and initial aggro hate is too low, allowing a player to tag mobs out of trains with those clickies alone.

One more issue is belly casters. Spells cast from range on a belly caster mob (see most dragons), should generate 0 Hate unless they actually land (see Tashan).

On one hand, vendor recharge is classic and seeing that go away would be very unclassic. On the other hand the widespread use of Mallets / Reapers / Wort pots is really stupid.

Once the timeline is completed I'd be in favor of a Luclin nerf to Reapers to be 30s and SK only and to SoulFire so they are Paladin only. And maybe a nerf to recharging cost on Wort potions so bad guilds don't crutch their way through AE encounters instead of forming groups with shakman/Druid/cleric healers to keep people alive. Mallets I dunno how to handle, probably Ivandyr's Hoop treatment.

Blanket removing recharge makes items like Puppet Strings and Bladestoppers useless. But keeping it in makes them quite valuable and allows you to think outside the box when you have them available to you. Though if you don't remove the rechargability of these top guilds will just rely on them harder and those without cant compete.

It would be very interesting if they could flag the clicky to not generate aggro on raid named mobs though...

[Rygar]

I recall your thread about aggro generation from out of range on belly casters and all that, is most definitely a separate issue but related somewhat in regards to trivializing the challenge of content.


Some of the other points about custom content are probably meant for a different thread, but I'll gladly dream along side you...

For Wort Pots, I was told (haven't confirmed) but that at some point in Luclin or maybe PoP there was a 'buff' or maybe even a 'debuff' given from taking a swig of a wort pot, and you had to let it wear off before taking another drink (couldn't unclick). Definitely warrants a custom content implementation in my opinion, although I think it would sadly kill a big perk of the Alchemy tradeskill. In the end, I think the ends justify the means.

As far as nerfing recharging, I am personally for that, or maybe custom content to be able to recharge such as with the Sky chargeable items. Could allow picking and choosing of 'OP' chargeables.

But specifically with regards to Bladestopper / Puppet Strings, you could make the item 'EXPENDABLE'. As far as I know those flagged items cannot be sold to vendors, but you could still trade them for OT hammers (betting price would probably go up to 10 or 20k for an OT hammer though!), and they could still be used for 'Solo Artist' challenges / tough farms, but won't be as trivial (i.e. you are sacrificing a shit ton of money to try and solo a mob. My hat goes off to this person).

I don't know how fast a Bladestopper is churned out on the server, but my guess is the price will drop and will be only used on top dog mobs. Would support making this No Drop during custom content as well, along with a small casting time.

Reapers / Soulfires class only usable when equipped? YES PLEASE!! :)

[Just facts]

is this the bug section or the requests section ???
seems to be alot of requests lately and not bugs...

[Rygar]

Linked to patch notes in OP to show intent of a fix. Also have previously had posts here asking for Kozzalym FTE message and spawn loc change that were implemented.

If Nilbog wants these types of fix requests posted elsewhere I will happily do that, just seems like this has been the place to go.

[Maner]

Linked to patch notes in OP to show intent of a fix. Also have previously had posts here asking for Kozzalym FTE message and spawn loc change that were implemented.

If Nilbog wants these types of fix requests posted elsewhere I will happily do that, just seems like this has been the place to go.

They don't show intent to fix instant clicks in any way actually... they are specifically talking about weapons procs... this isn't the "prove intent to nerf things they never actually nerfed" forum

[Rygar]

They don't show intent to fix instant clicks in any way actually... they are specifically talking about weapons procs... this isn't the "prove intent to nerf things they never actually nerfed" forum

Wow, so they reduce proc rates and hate levels from the proc because it made tanking too easy... And you are saying dumping a full mallet into a raid mob to generate an insane amount of agro doesn't make it easy?

See the forest for the trees my friend.

In the end, tanks will still manage agro, A/A/R will still drop bosses regularly, will just take more discipline. Much like monks need to do note that easy mode sneak us how it should be.

[Maner]

People were using mallets in velious and luclin. Just not for every encounter like they do here. If it was their intent to nerf the instant clicks as well then they would have.

Proc rates arent even an issue here since everything has the same rate.... If you are going to go that in depth and read into things that arent there, then we will also have to look up proc rates for said weapons. Which would mean looking up and confirming proc rates for everything...

[Rygar]

I'm not doubting people used them, however it wasn't a widespread problem that got attention of the staff though. Makes zero sense to reduce proc rates / hate on weapons on live since tanking was made way to easy by it, then allow tanks to easy mode raid mobs.

It is the equivalent of making grouping harder to tank, but raiding easier. It should not work like that and you know it.

I'm sure on some server somewhere people figured out how to get Ivandyr's Hoops and lock down some dragons with them, but it was the widespread use that caught attention and justified a nerf.

In the end up to the p99 team what to do, I think that statement from the patch was a mission statement for the class that should be honored. They have already nerfed hoops for making this a more classic experience, I hope they do the same with all agro clickies.

[Doctor Jeff]

The change you want has nothing to do with the patch notes you quoted.

If you want custom content you'll have to make your own server.

[Rygar]

The change you want has nothing to do with the patch notes you quoted.

If you want custom content you'll have to make your own server.

Its customized for P99 without question, but don't pretend the change has nothing to do with the patch note. Once again, the intention from original devs was to NOT make agro management easy for tanks in terms of procs and hate from spells (i.e. clickies). Nothing is easier than mallets really.

[Doctor Jeff]

The patch notes are very clearly regarding procs, which are not clickies.

[Rygar]

The patch notes are very clearly regarding procs, which are not clickies.

I know you are trying to prove a point, but please re-read my follow up responses. I'm not doubting that, but the whole point of the proc nerf was to make tanking less trivial. My point is mallets and clickies make raid tanking completely trivial which is against the intention that message set forth for the class.

They even say it was entirely too easy to hold a mob's attention over 50. Raid tanking was never meant to be spam right click and watch netflix until mob dead.

[loramin]

The change you want has nothing to do with the patch notes you quoted.

If you want custom content you'll have to make your own server.

Here's a question: do you actually know exactly how many "agro points" a mallet gave in 1999? Do you have any direct evidence yourself that the P99 values are classic? If not, how do you know that the "agro point" numbers on P99 are the same, ie. how do you know they are in fact "classic"? The P99 devs have certainly tried their hardest, but maybe there is no direct evidence and their current values are wrong. Certainly no one here remembers these items being as prevalent in classic times (which I admit proves nothing).

Maybe Rygar is trying to make the server more classic, and he's doing the best he can with indirect evidence since no one knows the classic "agro point" values, while you're actively working to keep it less classic. Or maybe he's wrong; that's totally possible and I certainly don't know. But I do know that anyone who has obviously put in time and effort to try and make this server better doesn't deserve to be insulted for wanting a custom server.

[Victorio]

I know you are trying to prove a point, but please re-read my follow up responses. I'm not doubting that, but the whole point of the proc nerf was to make tanking less trivial. My point is mallets and clickies make raid tanking completely trivial which is against the intention that message set forth for the class.

They even say it was entirely too easy to hold a mob's attention over 50. Raid tanking was never meant to be spam right click and watch netflix until mob dead.
It's apples and oranges. They said that the proc hate and the proc rate made it trivial to hold aggro (without even using clickies.) Clearly that is not the case on p99.

[Rygar]

It's apples and oranges. They said that the proc hate and the proc rate made it trivial to hold aggro (without even using clickies.) Clearly that is not the case on p99.

I don't completely understand what you are saying, are you saying it is hard on P99 to hold agro with procs only? Holding agro is very trivial on P99 when dealing with raid mobs because of the use of insta-agro clickies.

My point is they shouldn't be available trivialize agro management as the patch stated they implemented a nerf easy-mode agro management. If live devs saw P99 agro management, bet your ass a nerf would hit.

[Maner]

I don't completely understand what you are saying, are you saying it is hard on P99 to hold agro with procs only? Holding agro is very trivial on P99 when dealing with raid mobs because of the use of insta-agro clickies.

My point is they shouldn't be available trivialize agro management as the patch stated they implemented a nerf easy-mode agro management. If live devs saw P99 agro management, bet your ass a nerf would hit.

There are probably a lot of things the developers from 1999 would change if they saw what people were doing today. The problem is it's not classic to make those assumptions and change it because you think it's what the devs would have done.

Here's a question: do you actually know exactly how many "agro points" a mallet gave in 1999? Do you have any direct evidence yourself that the P99 values are classic? If not, how do you know that the "agro point" numbers on P99 are the same, ie. how do you know they are in fact "classic"? The P99 devs have certainly tried their hardest, but maybe there is no direct evidence and their current values are wrong. Certainly no one here remembers these items being as prevalent in classic times (which I admit proves nothing).

Maybe Rygar is trying to make the server more classic, and he's doing the best he can with indirect evidence since no one knows the classic "agro point" values, while you're actively working to keep it less classic. Or maybe he's wrong; that's totally possible and I certainly don't know. But I do know that anyone who has obviously put in time and effort to try and make this server better doesn't deserve to be insulted for wanting a custom server.

The problem is it's his job to find the agro values of the mallet on live and prove that they are different here. You're trying to use a strawman argument and make someone prove things should remain as they are. Indirect evidence isn't evidence it's an assumption or an opinion, therefore it proves nothing. Saying no one knows is just stupid though, instant clicks weren't nerfed in the patch mentioned so the argument is null.

I don't completely understand what you are saying, are you saying it is hard on P99 to hold agro with procs only? Holding agro is very trivial on P99 when dealing with raid mobs because of the use of insta-agro clickies.

My point is they shouldn't be available trivialize agro management as the patch stated they implemented a nerf easy-mode agro management. If live devs saw P99 agro management, bet your ass a nerf would hit.

They literally nerfed the proc rate of some weapons meaning not all proc rates were the same. Not only that they said that proc rates increased as you leveled which also obviously isn't the case here. On p99 proc rates are all normalized. They also said the proc rates as they were made it too easy to hold agro, that is not the case on p99.

[teija]

They don't show intent to fix instant clicks in any way actually... they are specifically talking about weapons procs... this isn't the "prove intent to nerf things they never actually nerfed" forum

I don't always agree with what Maner says but he is right here. The quote in the op specifically refers weapon "procs" not instant clicks. Confirmed classic as fuck, take your custom99 requests elsewhere.

[Rygar]

That feeling... When people just don't get it...

Once again (I'm sure it won't be for the last time), I'm saying that fix shows the intention for the class. They dId NOT want agro management to be trivial. If live had widespread abuse of insta clicks it would have been nerfed.

Funny how no one isn't crying about hoops not being classic these days yet are getting so salty over this.

[teija]

They dId NOT want WEAPON PROC to be trivial.


FTFY, Your OP is not even close to the same subject matter that you are trying to change. All these "bug reports" about things the creators "may" of wanted to changed years later is getting out of hand.

[Rygar]

Hmmm why would they not want weapon proc rate to be trivial..? Oh because it made tanking super easy, which was not their intention for the class or the game. It isn't hard to draw the parallel to mallets here.

Just stop trying to tie this to proc rates already, I have really admitted this post isn't about proc rates but is about how classic EQ was meant to be played as a tank.

I am arguing for ivandyr hoop treatment for agro clickies based on that patch note and past history on p99 that saw clicky abuse.

[nyclin]

I am arguing for ivandyr hoop treatment for agro clickies based on that patch note and past history on p99 that saw clicky abuse.

as happy said, the patch note had to do with weapon proc rates and not clicky aggro, and the ivandyr's hoop change should be reverted - it's not classic mechanics.

recharging was possible in this era
midnight mallets and spider nets existed in this era
resisted spells generated aggro in this era (although whether or not it was 100% of the potential aggro is up for debate)

if you want to see something changed, provide evidence - you can't just post a "bug" because you personally don't like the way something works

[Rygar]

I can't believe how many people are disregarding the intention of that note and just saying, "blah blah blah it only had to do with proc rates". I honestly don't understand how you can be that narrow sighted.

This is a server to recreate the classic experience of Everquest, there are rare exceptions where actions need to be taken to keep it a classic experience (see: Hoops). I'm a firm believer that Mallets and other agro clickies ruin that experience. Its clear from PART of the patch note (hope that helps) that they did not intend to make keeping a mobs attention super easy while tanking.

I get you are trying to say proc rates made it too easy so they nerfed the proc rates only but left the clickies alone, I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying if these clickies were widespread knowledge and everyone used them to end-game tank a nerf would have been swift.

Everyone talks tough about how much harder EQ is and the babies should go play 'easy mode WoW', yet defending these items that make this game insanely easier and removes one of the few challenging aspects of EQ raiding (obtaining agro, holding agro, and tank swapping).

I am not going to bump this thread with useless bumps to get attention, I've more than made my point. If you all stop replying it has a chance to just fade away. I will defend my position if you challenge it however. We've both made our points, your call if you want this thread to disappear off the front page or not.

[Maner]

I can't believe how many people are disregarding the intention of that note and just saying, "blah blah blah it only had to do with proc rates". I honestly don't understand how you can be that narrow sighted.

This is a server to recreate the classic experience of Everquest, there are rare exceptions where actions need to be taken to keep it a classic experience (see: Hoops). I'm a firm believer that Mallets and other agro clickies ruin that experience. Its clear from PART of the patch note (hope that helps) that they did not intend to make keeping a mobs attention super easy while tanking.

I get you are trying to say proc rates made it too easy so they nerfed the proc rates only but left the clickies alone, I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying if these clickies were widespread knowledge and everyone used them to end-game tank a nerf would have been swift.

Everyone talks tough about how much harder EQ is and the babies should go play 'easy mode WoW', yet defending these items that make this game insanely easier and removes one of the few challenging aspects of EQ raiding (obtaining agro, holding agro, and tank swapping).

I am not going to bump this thread with useless bumps to get attention, I've more than made my point. If you all stop replying it has a chance to just fade away. I will defend my position if you challenge it however. We've both made our points, your call if you want this thread to disappear off the front page or not.

If you want the instant clicks to be nerfed then you first need to find the exact proc rates of every weapon and then make sure they are the same on P99 as they were on Live. Come back when you're finished with that.

[fash]

On one hand, vendor recharge is classic and seeing that go away would be very unclassic. On the other hand the widespread use of Mallets / Reapers / Wort pots is really stupid.

Off topic, but fyi on red where there is no vendor recharge, using mallets to hold aggro in raids is still widespread. It's just more expensive.

[Samoht]

That feeling... When people just don't get it...

You mean like how you're not getting this? This whole post is an exercise in vanity. You're wrong. Let it go.

If you were petitioning to have the proc hate changed, then you might get support, even if it nerfed tanks.

But that's not what you're doing here. You're making a suggestion to change spell hate based on your feelings. That's not what this subforum is for.

It's time for you to stop posting in this thread.

[Rygar]

Fail to see how this is vanity related, and I'm not trying to get spell hate changed here per se, just bringing tanking dynamics more in line with classic era of the day. I really question if people have even read my responses or just rage post after reading things they don't agree with. This is a justification thread for nerf ala PBAoE, Kozzalym spawn change, and Ivandyrs Hoops.

If a dev our mod find this thread inappropriate for this area and want to delete / move this thread I won't be offended in the least, I have made my case and had my say. This is their box to do as they wish and I'm thankful for what they've done.

Here's an idea, if you want this thread to go away stop insulting me and posting in it. Plenty of people have already backed your opinion.

[Victorio]

This is a justification thread for nerf ala PBAoE, Kozzalym spawn change, and Ivandyrs Hoops.
Then posting it in the bugs forum with "classic evidence" in the title is completely wrong.

[Samoht]

Then posting it in the bugs forum with "classic evidence" in the title is completely wrong.

His classic evidence seems real. I haven't personally validated it.

It just has nothing to do with nerfing spell hate like he's requesting, though.