I got into an argument with a friend at a LAN party...

[Jimjam]

Someone else pulls over our group and some of the mobs aggro onto us.

Are we allowed to kill these mobs in self defence or would we be kill stealing?

[Doctor Jeff]

If the mobs aggro you, you have a right to defend yourself, but if they are just passing through, then that's kill stealing.

small anecdote:
I was PLing a character in mistmoore on the ledge and because of crappy pathing, my mobs would sometimes path through the CE. (one at a time, the character I was pulling with was level 60)
I spam clicked my flux staff (easily 25-30 times)for insane aggro and then watched the ranger in the CE group cast 5+ snares trying to get aggro before rooting my mob and then doing a /shout similar to "whoever is training CE, I have sent a petition"
Guide showed up, I explained what was going on, the guide disappeared, and I didn't have trouble with the CE trying to root my mobs anymore.
(if you pull from cy to ledge they path through the castle and climb up the wall)

So it really depends on how you got aggro.
Did you guys generate the aggro, or was it proximity?
Did the other party attempt to regain control of their mobs?
Did you give them a chance to try to rectify the situation?

[Tupakk]

Kind of a gray area. I personally would kill it and say to the person that pulled it to pay more attention to pathing or take a different direction.

[Swish]

A similar case of this was one time grouped at Mistmoore at the castle entrance. Zone was busy, as Mistmoore is.

A group of 6 appears that decides without saying anything they're going to move inside the castle entrance and pull where the first 2 gargoyles spawn. I continue pulling (on my SK), then start getting shitty messages from them. Short of rooting they try to do everything to aggro every mob I'm pulling so they can say it attacked them, but after 2-3 disease clouds you aren't pulling it off, sorry...

Anyway they ended up pulling the bigger room with the negotiator room in, but taking it through the back entrance past 4 gargoyles and the gypsies...and wipe themselves. Obviously its instinctive when that hits for some of hte group to try and zone. So all these mobs come past us as the biggest dbag among them tries to escape, and dies.

They path back, we dismantle it as we were in good shape and we get petitioned for

1. Training them.
2. Kill stealing.

So to recap. A group moves in, pulls the mobs we were pulling, tries to aggro mobs we had already pulled, trains out and wipes, then petitions us for killing "their" mobs.

That's who you're dealing with on blue server sometimes. In terms of the context of this thread - they moved in ahead of us knowing we were pulling from in there. Despite careful pulling, it creates a shit show.

[Jimjam]

To muddy the water some of the aggro we took may have been due to us PBAoEing (farming tradeskill components).

We tried to avoid the situation by moving into the zone a bit on a hill thereby making sure we were visible to other pullers.

[Littlestgnome]

I suppose in my mind it comes down to who was in the area first as they are the ones with the established presence. Assuming that's me, I feel a greater obligation to my own group than I do to somebody else's group and/or feelings.

It seems to me it's always the second party's responsibility to initiate communication so as to preemptively avoid such issues in the first place. If they're not doing that, I'm going to say 9/10 times they're the ones at fault either by accident or by design. I'd like to think the GMs would see it that way as well. Perhaps they will not, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

[Vidar]

A similar case of this was one time grouped at Mistmoore at the castle entrance. Zone was busy, as Mistmoore is.

A group of 6 appears that decides without saying anything they're going to move inside the castle entrance and pull where the first 2 gargoyles spawn. I continue pulling (on my SK), then start getting shitty messages from them. Short of rooting they try to do everything to aggro every mob I'm pulling so they can say it attacked them, but after 2-3 disease clouds you aren't pulling it off, sorry...

Anyway they ended up pulling the bigger room with the negotiator room in, but taking it through the back entrance past 4 gargoyles and the gypsies...and wipe themselves. Obviously its instinctive when that hits for some of hte group to try and zone. So all these mobs come past us as the biggest dbag among them tries to escape, and dies.

They path back, we dismantle it as we were in good shape and we get petitioned for

1. Training them.
2. Kill stealing.

So to recap. A group moves in, pulls the mobs we were pulling, tries to aggro mobs we had already pulled, trains out and wipes, then petitions us for killing "their" mobs.

That's who you're dealing with on blue server sometimes. In terms of the context of this thread - they moved in ahead of us knowing we were pulling from in there. Despite careful pulling, it creates a shit show.

And on Red this is never an issue because you will be soloing...Ghost town...

Hi Swish. There are dbags on both servers. stop trying to say that red is better than blue. Numbers dont lie.

[Just facts]

Coin toss,
The chardok resistance movement showed that if a mob is pulled past you and attacks if you have fraps they might get banned.

And you have the fear golems rule that say you may not engage a mob being pulled straight to a kill force.


Whatever you do, make sure the reward I worth a suspension.

[Doctor Jeff]

And on Red this is never an issue because you will be soloing...Ghost town...

Hi Swish. There are dbags on both servers. stop trying to say that red is better than blue. Numbers dont lie.

not actually true, my anecdote was from red.


btw pvp servers were always 1/7 to 1/5 the pop of pve servers on live.

[Vidar]

p99 is what it is because of blue. not red.

P.S. Im just tired of people acting like Dbags and assholes only exist on blue. Red has just as many. And can be or is or whatever a more toxic place.

[Doctor Jeff]

p99 is what it is because of blue. not red.

P.S. Im just tired of people acting like Dbags and assholes only exist on blue. Red has just as many. And can be or is or whatever a more toxic place.

You are being very defensive for no reason.

There are a proportional amount of dbags and assholes on both servers, no one has ever said otherwise.

Swish is saying that on red, you can just slay the dbags and there is no issue. You don't have to wait for a gm to come and suspend the wrong party by accident.

[Vidar]

Actually Swish has a long history of trashing blue to try and make red look better. And yah you 'could' just trash to group...or another group could get lvl 60 buffs and come and trash you and then you are even worse off. Thats the truth. It sounds nice to say "oh, on red you just kill them!" But the reality is a bit different.

[Doctor Jeff]

.or another group could get lvl 60 buffs

You just dispell their buffs.

At the end of the day, if YOU don't want to pvp, stay on blue, no one is trying to make YOU do something YOU don't want to do.

If you want to try something new, not wait in lines, solve disputes without getting accidentally deathtouched by sirken because the other guy said his piece before you, etc...

You are getting offended over nothing, and arguing on points that you have no idea about.

The events you described are rare.

Edit:
Fungi twinks are even super rare now, I think it's just Jewcy nowadays and he is only ever in Mistmoore, which should be avoided anyways because there are way better places to xp in that range.

I can see dying to a fungi twink while you're learning being annoying, but after a few pvp encounters you learn to realize that they aren't actually scary at all and generally aren't able to kill you unless you do something dumb (which you will while learning)

Once you learn how to play everquest, it's not problem.

[Vidar]

Im pointing out that swish is fluffing the truth and trashing blue in the process. Yes Red can be a good place but its not as easy as oh just kill them. And yah, 'surely' a buffed twink wouldnt be ahead in the fight while you are dispelling him. trash buffs and such. Stop fluffing the truth about red. Just tell it like it is. its not hard.

[loramin]

Hi Swish. There are dbags on both servers. stop trying to say that red is better than blue. Numbers dont lie.

I just realized something this morning: Swish is Red's Don Quixote! Why not just let him keep trying to fight windmills (convert Blue players) and rescue prostitutes (rescue Red)?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uNVNf0DLsYQ/hqdefault.jpg
(Swish looking for new Red players; sorry, couldn't find an animated one)

[Doctor Jeff]

Im pointing out that swish is fluffing the truth and trashing blue in the process. Yes Red can be a good place but its not as easy as oh just kill them. And yah, 'surely' a buffed twink wouldnt be ahead in the fight while you are dispelling him. trash buffs and such. Stop fluffing the truth about red. Just tell it like it is. its not hard.

You seem to think that there is only one zone in Everquest, which is fine. But you're wrong.

People don't get "trashed" nearly as often as you think, and it's generally because they just stand there and let it happen.


I definitely think anyone with this kind of defeatist attitude will have a terrible time on red.

[Vidar]

Lol, doc, you are missin the point of my posts big time.

[Doctor Jeff]

Lol, doc, you are missin the point of my posts big time.

Your first argument is that swish is a jerk, cool I agree, let's ignore that.

Your second argument is that you get rekt by twinks trying to level repeatedly which completely false, but a common fear that is reinforced in potential new players by way of confirmation bias in these types of threads.

You're missing the point of my posts which is that you are making shit up just as much as Swish.

[Vidar]

I never said it was repeatedly. I was just using his example in a different way. Its easy to say a situation is great when it works out in your favor. I was just pointing out that there a different side. and i think a worse side.

P.S. I dont see how im making shit up. Is it not possible for one group to wreck another after being buffed by high lvl players? I have played on red and it was a ghost town, but ive heard people talk about stuff like that ingame and on these forums.

[loramin]

There are a proportional amount of dbags and assholes on both servers, no one has ever said otherwise.

I'm saying otherwise :D

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to hate on Red, but it's just that PvP in any MMOG, and especially one with as much power asymmetry as Red, is going to attract more assholes (proportionally) than a non-PvP server.

Why? Because asymmetrical PvP by its natures attracts griefers, and griefers are (by their nature) assholes. I'm not saying all PvP players or all Red players are griefers, I'm just saying an environment where you can grief people easily attracts more griefers than an environment where you can't.

[Tupakk]

Well this thread got rekt

[Cecily]

Didn't read any replies, but if I was handling this dispute as a guide.. A group dragging mobs over a camp which end up agroing another group has, in essence, trained the second group and the second group has every right to defend themselves. This only applies if the second group wasn't deliberately peeling agro. In that case the second group is KSing.

Really not good form to pull mobs over another group.

[kotton05]

A similar case of this was one time grouped at Mistmoore at the castle entrance. Zone was busy, as Mistmoore is.

A group of 6 appears that decides without saying anything they're going to move inside the castle entrance and pull where the first 2 gargoyles spawn. I continue pulling (on my SK), then start getting shitty messages from them. Short of rooting they try to do everything to aggro every mob I'm pulling so they can say it attacked them, but after 2-3 disease clouds you aren't pulling it off, sorry...

Anyway they ended up pulling the bigger room with the negotiator room in, but taking it through the back entrance past 4 gargoyles and the gypsies...and wipe themselves. Obviously its instinctive when that hits for some of hte group to try and zone. So all these mobs come past us as the biggest dbag among them tries to escape, and dies.

They path back, we dismantle it as we were in good shape and we get petitioned for

1. Training them.
2. Kill stealing.

So to recap. A group moves in, pulls the mobs we were pulling, tries to aggro mobs we had already pulled, trains out and wipes, then petitions us for killing "their" mobs.

That's who you're dealing with on blue server sometimes. In terms of the context of this thread - they moved in ahead of us knowing we were pulling from in there. Despite careful pulling, it creates a shit show.

While people criticize swish. This post is spot on.

I've had this happen a few times to me and overall it's a huge grey area whether it's malicious or accidental. Both look the same. I dunno how a GM would look at this. Its prolly almost case by case. Just don't do nothing you don't want a GM to see. If a group continues to pull thru you then maybe move to a diff spot /shrug. I think if they aggro you it's fair game to protect yourself and if the other group wanted them bad enough the puller would sink more aggro into them as to not lose the mob to sit aggro.

On the other side if your fighting in an area that could have traffic you might wanna re-eval the fight spot. But shit happens.

[Ivah]

Your first argument is that swish is a jerk, cool I agree, let's ignore that.

Your second argument is that you get rekt by twinks trying to level repeatedly which completely false, but a common fear that is reinforced in potential new players by way of confirmation bias in these types of threads.

You're missing the point of my posts which is that you are making shit up just as much as Swish.

These are grown men who cry, bitch and struggle over a 18 year old AI. They will never understand the intellegence you are blessing upon them.

[fadetree]

What's really annoying is that in any thread where somebody is having a problem caused by somebody else, swish and a few others will ALWAYS try to derail it by talking about red in a blue post on a blue forum. They are often successful, as in this thread. I don't care whether they are right or wrong or post like f-ing socrates, SHUT.THE.F*CK.UP.ABOUT.RED.
It's been going on for years, and it hasn't changed Red's pop one bit. All it does is annoy blue players, and should be considered trolling at this point.

[Doctor Jeff]

What's really annoying is that in any thread where somebody is having a problem caused by somebody else, swish and a few others will ALWAYS try to derail it by talking about red in a blue post on a blue forum. They are often successful, as in this thread. I don't care whether they are right or wrong or post like f-ing socrates, SHUT.THE.F*CK.UP.ABOUT.RED.
It's been going on for years, and it hasn't changed Red's pop one bit. All it does is annoy blue players, and should be considered trolling at this point.

Vidar is the one that brought up red, and everything he said about it was false.