Shaman or enchanter

[justin84]

Have played p99 very little in the past. I believe i made it to 5 monk before friends and family stopped playing and due to work I was unable to play but very little. Wanted to come back and start as a shaman or enchanter. I have read for hours the discussions on the boards about races for both and the different guides for each class.

The question I had is the difference in the two from 1-59 and the difference at 60. I have played both classes live but never pre planes of power. Any advice would be welcomed. Also will be starting with close to nothing if that matters per these two classes. Thanks.

[Froakula]

Ench is much easier just starting out and infinitely cheaper to gear.

[Samoht]

I feel like a Shaman with epic and level 60 spells is much more powerful than an Enchanter with epic and level 60 spells. Yes, the Enchanter can do more damage with a charmed pet, but the Shaman can kill much more powerful opponents. Soloing by rooting and rotting is also much safer than charm.

[FoxFritter]

I have to agree with Froakula. I've decided not to start a shaman until I'm able to afford a fungi tunic..that's pretty much the bottom line.

Enchanters are MUCH easier to gear up..INT being the cheaper stat to buy..as well as CHA vs WIS.

Not to mention the fact that enchanters are simply fun to play. You can fit them into quite a few different roles..support(buffs/debuffs/CC) is the main one, DPS, or even tanking if you're able to charm a mob effectively and you have a healer..but you can easily have two enchanters in a group and not have the 'waste' you would for a lot of other classes.

Playing an enchanter takes style baby. Very fun, and very versatile.

Whatever you do, make sure you go agnostic with religion if you choose enchanter. It gives you the free-est reign to walk around un-hated wherever the hell you want.


Samoht isn't incorrect either though. It's always fun to see shaman quad root rotting 51+ mobs.. It all depends what you want either way. Just my opinion...if you're starting the game fresh, enchanter is easier to jump in and get dirty with. It also gives you a VERY good understanding of game mechanics which will set you up for success for every character you make after that. Just don't get discouraged and make sure to do the homework on things that are stumping you.

[Darkatar]

I feel like a Shaman with epic and level 60 spells is much more powerful than an Enchanter with epic and level 60 spells. Yes, the Enchanter can do more damage with a charmed pet, but the Shaman can kill much more powerful opponents. Soloing by rooting and rotting is also much safer than charm.


Pretty much agree with Samoht, Although I would say an enc could usually take down equally as difficult opponents, your life lies in the RNG every charm.


Samoht isn't incorrect either though. It's always fun to see shaman quad root rotting 51+ mobs..

As for this, it's not just about multi epic/root. At 60 with torpor shaman style of gameplay changes immensely, As most fights can be turned into an endurance contest at that point for the shaman. Enchanters play similarly 20-60, Burst damage with charm pet, and hope RNG is in your favor.

[loramin]

First off, gear on a Shaman (and on an Enchanter) does not really matter, with a few exceptions. Leveling up I had total crap for gear, and even at 60 I am still wearing several pieces of ringmail and similar junk, but not caring (see Magelo link below). However there are four key Shaman purchases, all of which are not cheap (a fungi, JBB, epic, and Torpor) vs. only one for an Enchanter, and its cheap (Goblin Gazughi Ring? their epic isn't even that great). However Shaman are good at farming plat and valuable items so this just means you'll spend more time farming if you pick a Shaman.

As far as soloing end-game content, solo leveling, and grouping, both classes are about equal. Both can solo high-end stuff that other classes can't, both can easily earn XP soloing, and both are desired in groups.

Things a Shaman can do that an Enchanter can't: SoW (and they get insta-click SoW booties), Cannibalize (huge downtime saver), heal, root/rot (Enchanter DoTs are weak), wear leather and chain armor, have more hp, slow slightly better

Things an Enchanter can do that a Shaman can't: Clarity (also big downtime saver), charm (incredibly powerful), mez, haste slightly better, illusions and faction buffs

TLDR: Go for shaman if you want a battle caster, go for an enchanter if you want a puppet master

[FoxFritter]

At 60 with torpor shaman style of gameplay changes immensely, As most fights can be turned into an endurance contest at that point for the shaman.

That's one of the reasons I was saying enchanters are easier to get started with. Torpor is an incredibly expensive spell..ESPECIALLY if it's going to be his first actual main.

[Darkatar]

That's one of the reasons I was saying enchanters are easier to get started with. Torpor is an incredibly expensive spell..ESPECIALLY if it's going to be his first actual main.

That's very true but I felt it was worth mentioning since he specifically asked on how they played different at 60 compared to 1-59

[Samoht]

Although I would say an enc could usually take down equally as difficult opponents, your life lies in the RNG every charm.

I was specifically thinking of things like WW dragons that an Enchanter can't even touch because they will dispel charm on the pet.

[Darkatar]

I was specifically thinking of things like WW dragons that an Enchanter can't even touch because they will dispel charm on the pet.

I've seen chanters stack charm up to the 10th slot or so and spam bracer/etc on pet to maintain charm, is that not really viable on WW dragons? I've only ever shaman'd them myself, personally.

[Kelor]

I would suggest Enchanter.

Shaman will cost like 300k to gear fully now, i have heard of people paying nearly 100k for epic atm, then add torpor and other spells.

[Cambiant]

If you've only played to level 5 then in all honesty I'd vote shaman a thousand times over. The people comparing level 60 benefits and the costs of torpor etc have likely put months of actual sitting at their screen playtime into EQ. I wouldn't worry about any of that yet. SoW is a godsend to new players, being able to turn and bail on a bad fight and actually make it to the zoneline will save you hours of lost experience. No tricks, just turn and run. Also, while leveling a shaman no one is going to get upset if you're late on a buff or slowing a mob. Enchanter brain farts can and will wipe your group and you will be blamed regardless of idiots breaking your mezzes.
I really feel like survivability and learning curve for someone who hasn't passed level 5 obviously drops this in the shaman column. The chanter votes here aren't wrong but info think they're setting you up for less fun.

[justin84]

Sorry guys. It's been a long day with work and parties.

I didn't mean to mislead anyone but I meant I hadn't done anything past lvl 5 on p99. I have played live during classic - current content up to lvl 90. However I never played a shaman or enchanter until way past planes of power.
My fear with the shaman is that the leveling from 1-60 and pre fungi/torpor/epic will take forever and not sure the rewards of 60 with fungi/torpor/epic is worth it. Didn't know how realistic the shaman with the goodies is because I'm not aware of the economy is on p99.
The fear of the enchanter is actually doing the content solo without having any sort of heal/Evac for when things get rough. Other than gate. Just thinking as one has posted(Cambiant) that the enchanter will have lots of deaths.

[Samoht]

Just make your shaman iksar. It's OP.

[justin84]

I also talked to my cousin today who said he would be able to help me out with some stuff to help me get started. If that plays a roll in the difference in the two classes for the first 20 levels or so.

[justin84]

Anyone else with advice before I start tomorrow?

The internet guy is coming to hook up our new home so should be in by tomorrow night.

[Darkatar]

Anyone else with advice before I start tomorrow?

The internet guy is coming to hook up our new home so should be in by tomorrow night.

Both are high demand for groups, and top end soloers, With my personal preference being shaman.

Enc if you have limited time, but you'll need a guild to get their epic. (cannot MQ it, doesn't do -much- for a pure soloer, but is still helpful)

Sham if you don't mind spending 200+ hours farming money to complete the character/buy the epic MQ, or guild up for the epic.

[loramin]

Anyone else with advice before I start tomorrow?

Yes ...

Just make your shaman iksar. It's OP.

Ignore that.

EDIT:

Also, don't spend a ton of time on gear early on. As a caster gear really isn't that important: the leveling speed of (say) a level 20 shaman with 20k of gear is almost identical to that of a shaman with 1k of gear (source: my 60 shaman is still wearing multiple pieces of ringmail, and he had similarly crap armor in most slots leveling up). Gear mainly just gives you higher maximums, but maxes don't help leveling speed: HP/mana regeneration (eg. fungi tunic) does.

There are certain key class items (eg. JBB for a shaman, Goblin Ghazugi Ring for enchanter) that are the exception, but for everything else I recommend just wearing what you loot.

[Darkatar]

Yes ...
Just make your shaman iksar. It's OP.
Ignore that

So true.
Go ogre! Or troll I guess if you don't plan on soloing much.

[loramin]

So true.
Go ogre! Or troll I guess if you don't plan on soloing much.

Or Barbarian for faction, fashion, and all around sexiness ;) But yeah, power-game-wise Ogre (at level 60) or Troll (up until level 60) are the correct choices.

[Darkatar]

Or Barbarian for faction, fashion, and all around sexiness ;) But yeah, power-game-wise Ogre (at level 60) or Troll (up until level 60) are the correct choices.

Can't argue with that, but at the end of the day, we're all bears!

[loramin]

Can't argue with that, but at the end of the day, we're all bears!

Yes but the white ones are completely superior to the black ... you know I'll just stop right there.

[Maner]

Yes ...



Ignore that.

EDIT:

Also, don't spend a ton of time on gear early on. As a caster gear really isn't that important: the leveling speed of (say) a level 20 shaman with 20k of gear is almost identical to that of a shaman with 1k of gear (source: my 60 shaman is still wearing multiple pieces of ringmail, and he had similarly crap armor in most slots leveling up). Gear mainly just gives you higher maximums, but maxes don't help leveling speed: HP/mana regeneration (eg. fungi tunic) does.

There are certain key class items (eg. JBB for a shaman, Goblin Ghazugi Ring for enchanter) that are the exception, but for everything else I recommend just wearing what you loot.


This is an example not an argument. a lvl 20 shm with a fungi will lvl a LOT faster than one without, and that goes for every level. Having more wis means more mana which means you can cast more spells before being oom as well. Gear does play a factor for basically all classes, with necros being the least affected.

[Darkatar]

This is an example not an argument. a lvl 20 shm with a fungi will lvl a LOT faster than one without, and that goes for every level. Having more wis means more mana which means you can cast more spells before being oom as well. Gear does play a factor for basically all classes, with necros being the least affected.

I'd personally recommend rolling STAM as a shaman, over wis, I did, and I'm very happy with the outcome. Haven't hit the cap on stam or wis yet (230s stam, 200ish wis without bearform) And that's in 90% pre-velious gear (coldain gloves, lodi back). If I properly geared him in "high end" gear, He would be able to 255 both stam and wisdom.

Going OOM is bad, going dead is worse. Having more HP total can help you get that slow off before you die. (you could argue more mana could help with that, but not when you have a hasted mob beating you dead because your HP total sucks)

That said, I would say mage is the least gear dependent class. Leveled one to 46 on nothing but fire pet and malachite and gear off the ground.

A necromancer loses a large amount of their efficiency if they don't have enough HP total to fully utilize their LTOTs

[Samoht]

Troll (up until level 60) are the correct choices.

This has no benefit over Iksar. Iksar is actually superior than Troll because of the AC bonus. So what if you can't wear GEBs. There's better gear out there.

[Darkatar]

This has no benefit over Iksar. Iksar is actually superior than Troll because of the AC bonus.

Trolls get a snare necklace (sure you can go get that VP snare spear...someday...maybe)

Iksar also can't use JBBracer or Jbbreastplate (which has an 18ac+3ds buff you can't obtain outside of [the slightly superior buff from] tunare belt)

[Samoht]

Snare neck is overrated and JBB only has a small window of usefulness. Don't let those affect your decision.

[Darkatar]

Snare neck is overrated and JBB only has a small window of usefulness. Don't let those affect your decision.

I agree JBBracer is shit, but the breastplate is a great clicky, and snare neck can save your life in tight quarters, or camps where you CAN NOT HAVE a runner, like crypt or fungi king. (or any area a runner would train you)

Why disregard minor perks completely for a small AC bonus (another minor perk) that is counterbalanced in part (or whole) by JBBreastplate?

As far as windows of usefulness, FSI is great your whole life, you won't give a shit about that racial regen with torpor.

[Samoht]

snare neck can save your life in tight quarters, or camps where you CAN NOT HAVE a runner, like crypt or fungi king. (or any area a runner would train you)

How is this any better than plain old root? If anything, the six second cast time makes it much worse.

[loramin]

First off, I should note that I'm mainly talking about soloing here, since gear matters even less when you group (about 1/6th as much).

a lvl 20 shm with a fungi will lvl a LOT faster than one without,
I said "with 20k of gear", and a fungi is > 20k, but I also wrote:

There are certain key class items (eg. JBB for a shaman, Goblin Ghazugi Ring for enchanter) that are the exception

I completely agree that for a Shaman a fungi is one of a handful of key items.

Having more wis means more mana which means you can cast more spells before being oom as well. Gear does play a factor for basically all classes, with necros being the least affected.

Only flowing thought gear and nothing else will get mana back any faster. The one extra kill from more max mana is nothing compared to the thousands and thousands you'll kill (and need to regen back from afterwards). But to be fair, stat gear does help a small amount, which is why I said "almost identical".


But, you're missing something important: we're not talking about whether a level 60 should twink an alt, we're talking about a brand new player and whether they should spend time on leveling or earning plat/gear. You can waste time earning 10 plat/hour to buy gear that won't even noticeably affect your leveling speed, or you can earn levels without (purchased) gear and earn 100+ plat/hour when you're higher level. I got to 60 with crap gear and can now make 1k plat/hour; if you want to try selling millions of bone chips to finance a fungi and then level that toon, please report back.

In my opinion the smart thing is for new players to spend their time leveling, wearing what they find, while saving their pennies to buy the really important stuff. Maybe they should spend a little time earning plat when they get close to affording a key item.

[Darkatar]

How is this any better than plain old root?

Well, here on blue, root can break any tic.

I know red root is a bit different, not sure on the specifics.

Not sure where you play.

Having for example, a rooted hiero break root and walk towards the door and be CH'd by a golem, is, bad. Or, it makes it out of the door, and now you have a CHing golem and hiero to kill.

And, with vel out, you can stack snare/root.

EDIT: Also, good luck sticking a >1tic root on fungi king lol.
DoubleEdit: Snare can't be broken with nukes either.

[Lhancelot]

Snare neck is overrated and JBB only has a small window of usefulness. Don't let those affect your decision.

That iksar ac bonus is overrated.

As a very wise poster on these here forums always used to say, if you can pick ogre, you always should pick ogre.

Ogre FSI allows you to get your spells off when you are face tanking hard hitting mobs, while other shamans would likely fail.

Basically ogres are supreme in combat, while trolls and iksar regen bonus give them an edge out of combat in between fights when using canni for mana regen.

This guy can minimalise the usefulness of the JBB and other clickies useable by all shaman races except iksar, but options are always nice and having the opportunity to use them is better than not having them.

Large races also get slam, which can prove to be useful when you need to interrupt a casting mob too.

There's only one reason to pick an iksar over a troll if you value health regen over ogre FSI and that's if you prefer them aesthetically or enjoy their lore, etc.

The fact of the matter is gamewise, iksar simply are inferior to both trolls and ogres if you are min/maxing for performance and for total options available in the game while playing the shaman class.

Oh, iksar also enjoy swinging weapons like gimps, they truly have by far the worst combat animations in the game.

[Darkatar]

This guy can minimalise the usefulness of the JBB and other clickies useable by all shaman races except iksar, but options are always nice and having the opportunity to use them is better than not having them.


I still dust off the JB clickies for noobs asking for stats after I tali/haste them

Also great crapbuffs before you toss a tali/torp on dogdog when you want him to eat some HTs.

[Samoht]

As a very wise poster on these here forums always used to say, if you can pick ogre, you always should pick ogre.

"Used to" being the optimal words here. Things have changed since Kunark was released.

Ogre FSI allows you to get your spells off when you are face tanking hard hitting mobs, while other shamans would likely fail.

FYI: This is not what FSI does, and you can still get interrupted by mobs from the front. You can also still get bashed by mobs from the side or from the back.

[Darkatar]

FYI: This is not what FSI does, and you can still get interrupted by mobs from the front. You can also still get bashed by mobs from the side or from the back.

The difference is you aren't guaranteed to drop the cast when bashed as an ogre.

Any other race, when sucessfully bashed, stops their cast as if they ducked it. They don't even get to the channeling check. Ogres get to at least attempt the channeling check. And against slowed mobs, channeling isn't really a problem, getting bashed and instantly dropping that reslow-v-resist or 6sec torp cast or 9sec epic click is.

If you're tanking with your flank or ass...that's a different problem, no race selection is going to change that.

[Sinadin]

the Ench Lull spell line is big...in my opinion the best asset an Enchanter has (besides the obvious of course)

[Lhancelot]

The difference is you aren't guaranteed to drop the cast when bashed as an ogre.

Any other race, when sucessfully bashed, stops their cast as if they ducked it. They don't even get to the channeling check. Ogres get to at least attempt the channeling check. And against slowed mobs, channeling isn't really a problem, getting bashed and instantly dropping that reslow-v-resist or 6sec torp cast or 9sec epic click is.

If you're tanking with your flank or ass...that's a different problem, no race selection is going to change that.

He knows what I meant when I described how ogres can get their spells off versus non-ogres.

He has an iksar fetish and just argues for the sake of arguing no matter how many valid and true points people make explaining why ultimately ogres are the master race for shaman with trolls near them at the top.

The fact velious is out doesn't diminish the usefulness of the jaundiced armor clickies, he knows this too.

He mentions how ogres get stunned from the side and back, and I can't think of a time I have ever tried landing a spell on mobs with my backside facing them when on my ogre shaman. Really just a silly response to try to diminish how powerful FSI really is.

Anyway, either class shaman or enchanter is a good choice.

I think enchanters are equal if not more powerful than shamans, and the best part is they won't require the financial investment the shaman will in the end regarding epic and spells.

That being said, if you are min/maxing and pick shaman, go with the ogre you won't regret it. :p

[Darkatar]

He knows what I meant when I described how ogres can get their spells off versus non-ogres.

Oh I know, I just feel it's shitty to misinform new players so I thought I'd throw my $0.02 in there and explain "what FSI does"

In general, the OP on these kinds subjects tends to actually read and not just agree with the rhetoric blindly unless nobody else is there to make a logical counterpoint.

[Samoht]

He knows what I meant when I described how ogres can get their spells off versus non-ogres.

He has an iksar fetish and just argues for the sake of arguing no matter how many valid and true points people make explaining why ultimately ogres are the master race for shaman with trolls near them at the top.

The fact velious is out doesn't diminish the usefulness of the jaundiced armor clickies, he knows this too.

He mentions how ogres get stunned from the side and back, and I can't think of a time I have ever tried landing a spell on mobs with my backside facing them when on my ogre shaman. Really just a silly response to try to diminish how powerful FSI really is.

Anyway, either class shaman or enchanter is a good choice.

I think enchanters are equal if not more powerful than shamans, and the best part is they won't require the financial investment the shaman will in the end regarding epic and spells.

That being said, if you are min/maxing and pick shaman, go with the ogre you won't regret it. :p

This post is so full of wrong that it's hilarious. You've never played a character past level 30, so you've never even click any Jaundiced Bone armor. You can't possibly know how useless it really is. Know this: Iksar have the benefit of clicking the JBB BP at level 1. They get 46 levels of extra armor before a Troll can even click it once. The JBB bracer is not that good, especially in Velious. Kill any named in Velks or SG or DN or WW using one. I dare you. The snare neck has negligible benefits that only work in specific circumstances, similar to FSI.

You're the first person I've ever heard call Ogre the "master race." That's something people normally associate with Iksar, and for a reason. Iksar are known to be the best race for every class/race combo possibility once Kunark comes out. The regen and the extra armor are seriously that much better while leveling and only become more important once you're at max stats unlike other racial benefits of Ogre and Troll. Warriors don't actually need FSI to hold aggro because they can just click a root net or a slow hammer and everything works out, anyway.

You obviously don't understand racial perks, but instead of accepting that and learning something new, you're doubling down on your misconceptions of FSI. The usefulness is extremely niche because after a mobs bash is on cooldown, you have plenty of time to cast the next root. Next you'll be telling me that Ogres are the best SK because they can channel through bash to cast FD? That's just dumb. It's not important at any other point in the game.

Honestly, FSI is just a crutch. It can be outshined easily just by being prepared and knowing how to play your class. Personally, I'd rather have racial perks that provide constant benefit.

[Jimjam]

How is this any better than plain old root? If anything, the six second cast time makes it much worse.

You can stack snare and root now. It's not an either/or situation.

It's nice to be able to re-root a mob before it reaches you, thanks to the run speed mod of snare.

It's nice to be able to snare a rooted fleeing mob so if root breaks after 11% you can start swinging (or send in pet) without worrying about incoming damage.

Also a fun little quest to do if that counts for anything. You get to kill halflings, wear ones face as a mask and pretend to be him for a while. Then you get to duff up a self righteous high elf. Its funs all the way down!

[loramin]

You're the first person I've ever heard call Ogre the "master race." That's something people normally associate with Iksar, and for a reason. Iksar are known to be the best race for every class/race combo possibility once Kunark comes out.

Ok, I'm a longtime shaman from both live and here, and the shaman community on both would generally agree that Ogre is the master race for Shaman, although there's always some debate because people with other races don't want to think they made the "wrong" choice, and so to feel better argue that whatever choice they made is the right one. In contrast Iksar is generally regarded as the worst Shaman race .... at level 60, and people tend to base these comparisons on level 60.

It's not hard to see why:

* Ogre: FSI (useful and unattainable in any other way), can use JBB
* Troll: Regen (useful and unattainable in any other way but Torpor kinda negates it), can use JBB
* Barbarian: Faction (useful, but can be attained other ways), can use JBB
* Iksar: Regen but no JBB (so basically just inferior to a troll ... and again with Torpor regen is almost meaningless)

Now it's true lots of things in Velious have high cold saves, and you won't be using your JBB in Kedge or Permafrost either. But even at 60 it's still a useful tool in many places, even if you just use it for finishing off Seafuries. So from a power-game perspective why pick a race that can't use JBB when you can pick one that can (yet still gets the same regen as an iksar)?

... but again, all of this is at 60, with torpor. For leveling up I think there's a better case for both Troll and Iksar, as regen helps a lot when leveling, and some of the Iksar-specific quests are also nice for leveling gear (or so I've heard; never done an iksar myself). People just tend to focus on level 60 because even if a race gives an XP penalty (which they all do, except Barb) you only level once, and once you do you're stuck at level 60 with the race you picked: if you picked a race for leveling you can't change your mind and choose a different race once you're done leveling.

[Samoht]

Ok, I'm a longtime shaman from both live and here, and the shaman community on both would generally agree that Ogre is the master race for Shaman, although there's always some debate because people with other races don't want to think they made the "wrong" choice, and so to feel better argue that whatever choice they made is the right one. In contrast Iksar is generally regarded as the worst Shaman race .... at level 60, and people tend to base these comparisons on level 60.

How hypocritical of you. It's well known that Barbarian is the worst shaman race due to having no racial traits that benefit the class. You go on to ignore that Iksar is going to have a higher AC than barb even when you completely discredit the benefit of regen and focus 100% on how JBB helps when farming... seafuries? No. Just... no. That's trivial. Hell, to me, even having forage is going to be more useful than using a JBB to farm seafuries.

If I want to create a power gamer super class that can solo things as high as WW dragons, I'm not picking Barbarian so I can get spam interrupted while trying to click my JBB. And I'm not picking Troll to have a necklace that gives no benefit to the process.

[loramin]

How hypocritical of you. It's well known that Barbarian is the worst shaman race due to having no racial traits that benefit the class.JBB.
Not sure what "JBB." means, but they do have a racial power: "use JBB". Iksar don't.

All I'm just telling you is what has been repeated a million times on the Shaman's Crucible and on here. There's definitely more agreement about the top than the bottom, so if you want to re-rank the two worst options go right ahead. A power gamer is going to pick the top choice regardless, and anyone picking Barb/Iksar isn't doing it for power-game reasons.

You go on to ignore that Iksar is going to have a higher AC than barb even when you completely discredit the benefit of regen and focus 100% on how JBB helps when farming... seafuries? No. Just... no. That's trivial. Hell, to me, even having forage is going to be more useful than using a JBB to farm seafuries.

Ok, what I said was:

it's still a useful tool in many places

and then I gave the seafuries as a worst case scenario. If all you use your JBB for is that at 60 (and I doubt that will be the case) it is still useful. But regen isn't once you get Torpor ... or at least it's so small it's not noticeable ... but you will notice that Seafury getting killed by your JBB before he gets away.

As for armor, I don't know the details of the Iksar bonus or how much it matters at level 60. All I know is that smarter people than me have done the math, and they didn't consider it good enough to rank Iksar #2 let alone #1.

If I want to create a power gamer super class that can solo things as high as WW dragons, I'm not picking Barbarian so I can get spam interrupted while trying to click my JBB. And I'm not picking Troll to have a necklace that gives no benefit to the process.

... ummm ... yeah ... which is why I didn't rank Barb or Troll #1. For WW dragons the ideal choice is the "master (Shaman) race", ie. the race I ranked #1, ie. the one with FSI, ie. the race you've started this whole argument about, ie. Ogre.

[Samoht]

... ummm ... yeah ... which is why I didn't rank Barb or Troll #1. For WW dragons the ideal choice is the "master (Shaman) race", ie. the race I ranked #1, ie. the one with FSI, ie. the race you've started this whole argument about, ie. Ogre.

You spelled "Iksar" wrong. I'm glad you pulled out the part about FSI being the best overall racial feat. I know that I would at least rank Sneak and Regen above FSI.

[Jimjam]

You spelled "Iksar" wrong. I'm glad you pulled out the part about FSI being the best overall racial feat. I know that I would at least rank Sneak and Regen above FSI.

This post foreshadows Luclin!

[brecon]

Not sure what "JBB." means, but they do have a racial power: "use JBB". Iksar don't.

All I'm just telling you is what has been repeated a million times on the Shaman's Crucible and on here. There's definitely more agreement about the top than the bottom, so if you want to re-rank the two worst options go right ahead. A power gamer is going to pick the top choice regardless, and anyone picking Barb/Iksar isn't doing it for power-game reasons.



Ok, what I said was:



and then I gave the seafuries as a worst case scenario. If all you use your JBB for is that at 60 (and I doubt that will be the case) it is still useful. But regen isn't once you get Torpor ... or at least it's so small it's not noticeable ... but you will notice that Seafury getting killed by your JBB before he gets away.

As for armor, I don't know the details of the Iksar bonus or how much it matters at level 60. All I know is that smarter people than me have done the math, and they didn't consider it good enough to rank Iksar #2 let alone #1.



... ummm ... yeah ... which is why I didn't rank Barb or Troll #1. For WW dragons the ideal choice is the "master (Shaman) race", ie. the race I ranked #1, ie. the one with FSI, ie. the race you've started this whole argument about, ie. Ogre.

I've done the math. At 60, assuming full spells, there are zero times when you should click a JBB unless it is to finish a runner or pull. Even then I prefer to pull with malo. With the same time as it takes to cast a JBB, you can torp/canni and get mana for a more efficient dot. You can find it somewhere in my history.

No shaman race is clearly best at 60. FSI for Ogres is the best racial. Iksar bonus is useful. Barb spiritists hammer is great until you get smoldering weap from VP, even at 60 when slow tanking. The main problem with iksar is no slam - our only potential interrupt.

[Darkatar]

The main problem with iksar is no slam - our only potential interrupt.

You could try to proc Howling Harpoon :rolleyes:

[brecon]

Truth. I personally never tried to use that instead of a Cudgel or a Barb hammer....i just tried to slam/push with the pet...but I feel ya :)

[loramin]

No shaman race is clearly best at 60. FSI for Ogres is the best racial. Iksar bonus is useful. Barb spiritists hammer is great until you get smoldering weap from VP, even at 60 when slow tanking. The main problem with iksar is no slam - our only potential interrupt.

While I've never owned a level 60 ogre shammy, I have owned a barbarian spiritist's hammer (both before and after the proc-nerf). I'm pretty certain that FSI is better (it would have to be pretty lame for the "proc a JBB hit once per century" hammer to beat it).

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone should play an Ogre Shaman (obviously I play a Barb), because the differences between the races just aren't that big. Shaman aren't like (say) Monks or Necromancers where you're pretty much making a mistake if you don't pick Iksar.

If you are going to compare those small differences Ogres do win. But in a level 60 PvP match, or a who can kill mobs the fastest match, or any similar competition a Shaman's race is going to be way way down the list of what matters, while skill and gear will be way higher.

[brecon]

While I've never owned a level 60 ogre shammy, I have owned a barbarian spiritist's hammer (both before and after the proc-nerf). I'm pretty certain that FSI is better (it would have to be pretty lame for the "proc a JBB hit once per century" hammer to beat it).

Idk I feel like you're splitting hairs here. I don't think there's a single true min-maxer that disagrees that a fully geared 60 shaman with all spells and optimal Velious gear is going to be an Ogre. The only other defensible race is Iksar. The main fight is how much 'better' that really makes them.

Barb hammer is a great perk. It doesn't proc once a century - at the dex rates you achieve with dex+focus, it will be close to 1.5 procs a minute on average. Those procs are free extra damage and can also interrupt casts. Is it gamebreaking? No. But there's a reason every geared VP shaman wants the Cudgel and the Snare piercer. And over the duration of a cliff golem kill, you're happy for any extra damage. If you are not raiding VP with your shaman, but plan to get Torpor and solo grind POM, Cliff Golems, etc...it's a nice item that only Barbs get.

When soloing cliff golems you should never be at risk of a single stun killing you. A stun is an annoyance and forces a recast. If you were at risk of a stun killing you...then FSI is going to be the better call. The fight is just going to last longer without the extra proc damage, but it will leave you victorious.

I go Barb bc I have dreams of one day getting the panda crown from DN.

[loramin]

Maybe I was splitting hairs; honestly I think we're agreeing with each more than disagreeing.

On that note I think we can both agree that, whatever the best race may be, it's not that much better than the next best race (so play what you want and only go Ogre if you want the most min/maxed option or you like Ogres).

When soloing cliff golems you should never be at risk of a single stun killing you.
The standard example raised (both back then and now) is soloing a Western Wastes dragon, as that's often considered the pinnacle of Shaman soloing difficulty. When you're soloing WW dragons FSI is not meaningless, though a BSH is :)

[Hitmonkey]

Not to be negative but see a lot of scrub shamans giving opinions that were probably better off in post velious in this thread.

If you want to go balls deep on a tightly packed area for that named and cruise from 1-50's while having fun you pick TROLL

Troll regen- torpor you say? Your not getting that till almost the end of your grinding, in the mean time troll shamans are passing you from day 1 because downtime..

Troll slam - getting burned down by a casting mob? can joust slam/interrupt casting rooted mobs (ogres get this too of coarse) and used this from 1-60 along with the fact you can do the rogue BS trick with slam.

Troll inny snare necklace- makes things highly risky/impossible for other shamans a done deal for troll root didn't stick and getting your face peeled? Add? Shoulder to shoulder with mobs like today and I can't afford a runner? Along with the fact people don't think about how much time & mana troll shamans saved on the zillions of mobs that turned and were beat down instead of rooted and fighting. There was a reason shamans were never giving a snare.

Post vel when mobs really started getting stuns, sure ogre is better but it still doesn't stop spell stuns which are the longest and you're getting torpor quicker with a troll because your leveling faster and in stops other guys can't do. Just my 2 cents.

[Lhancelot]

As for armor, I don't know the details of the Iksar bonus or how much it matters at level 60. All I know is that smarter people than me have done the math, and they didn't consider it good enough to rank Iksar #2 let alone #1.

For WW dragons the ideal choice is the "master (Shaman) race", ie. the race I ranked #1, ie. the one with FSI, ie. the race you've started this whole argument about, ie. Ogre.

Thank you for enlightening Thomas with true wisdom and being completely objective when making your points Loramin.

Anyone that says Ogres are not the master race for shamans simply are ignorant or living in denial. Not sure which one it is for Thomas.

Essentially an Iksar is a gimped troll when you compare both regen races for the shaman class. There's absolutely no reason to pick the Iksar over a troll unless the player simply finds them more appealing aesthetically.

Trolls get slam, iksar do not. Trolls can use JB clickies, Iksar cannot.

These reasons clearly leave a min/max player with two choices for shaman when picking a race, that being ogre first and troll second.

FSI is hands down the most useful racial attribute for shamans in the game, placing ogres as the number one choice for race for shamans. Trolls are second.

[Samoht]

Thank you for enlightening Thomas with true wisdom and being completely objective when making your points Loramin.

Anyone that says Ogres are not the master race for shamans simply are ignorant or living in denial. Not sure which one it is for Thomas.

Essentially an Iksar is a gimped troll when you compare both regen races for the shaman class. There's absolutely no reason to pick the Iksar over a troll unless the player simply finds them more appealing aesthetically.

Trolls get slam, iksar do not. Trolls can use JB clickies, Iksar cannot.

These reasons clearly leave a min/max player with two choices for shaman when picking a race, that being ogre first and troll second.

FSI is hands down the most useful racial attribute for shamans in the game, placing ogres as the number one choice for race for shamans. Trolls are second.

You seriously cannot read, can you? Someone a lot smarter than your or loramin has already commented on this:

I don't think there's a single true min-maxer that disagrees that a fully geared 60 shaman with all spells and optimal Velious gear is going to be an Ogre. The only other defensible race is Iksar. The main fight is how much 'better' that really makes them.

I'd listen to this guy. He's probably got a level 60 that's wearing better gear than Large Ringmail Pants (http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Magelo_Blue:Loramin). Troll comes in as the third best race. Why? Because Jaundiced Bone items suck, and Iksar AC is more important.

I've done the math. At 60, assuming full spells, there are zero times when you should click a JBB unless it is to finish a runner or pull. Even then I prefer to pull with malo. With the same time as it takes to cast a JBB, you can torp/canni and get mana for a more efficient dot. You can find it somewhere in my history.

This is the gist of it: JBB is not good. It's just not. It's an overrated, overhyped vanity item that you could outpace by using cannibalize and a real nuke. Same goes for the snare necklace. You've obviously never used either one.

Honestly, if you put half the effort into leveling your character that you spent defending your incoherent nonsense on the forums, then you might have a level 46 character by now.

[Amyas]

Shaman SoW, Heals, Slow, root, good dots, haste, amazing buffs.

Enc crack, CC, haste.

[justin84]

Due to the jerk face internet guy not coming yesterday, I'm still without the entergy(as my 4 year old calls it). I have decided to go dark elf enchanter and troll shaman. I think the shaman will be better to start with since I will get sow at 9 and have the higher str for carrying all of my fat loot. If it wasn't my first character I would go ogre but the extra regen should help me out. I prefer the troll over the iksar for the str/star and prefer evil (troll/dark elf/ogre) rather than hated (iksar).
I really wanted to go enchanter first but doing without sow and the str to carry loot and not being able to heal just doesn't seem worth it as a first character here.
Though I am not on the character select screen yet either. So who knows how that will go.

Edit: also, what does a jbb and fungi go for on the server ? Didn't know if they were obtainable by 50. Thanks.

[Lhancelot]

Due to the jerk face internet guy not coming yesterday, I'm still without the entergy(as my 4 year old calls it). I have decided to go dark elf enchanter and troll shaman. I think the shaman will be better to start with since I will get sow at 9 and have the higher str for carrying all of my fat loot. If it wasn't my first character I would go ogre but the extra regen should help me out. I prefer the troll over the iksar for the str/star and prefer evil (troll/dark elf/ogre) rather than hated (iksar).
I really wanted to go enchanter first but doing without sow and the str to carry loot and not being able to heal just doesn't seem worth it as a first character here.
Though I am not on the character select screen yet either. So who knows how that will go.

Edit: also, what does a jbb and fungi go for on the server ? Didn't know if they were obtainable by 50. Thanks.

You realize the regen doesn't really become significant till 51+ right? But troll is fine race. Anything other than iksar tbh.

FSI > regen though.

[loramin]

I have decided to go dark elf enchanter and troll shaman. I think the shaman will be better to start with since I will get sow at 9 and have the higher str for carrying all of my fat loot. If it wasn't my first character I would go ogre but the extra regen should help me out. I prefer the troll over the iksar for the str/star and prefer evil (troll/dark elf/ogre) rather than hated (iksar).

This makes me feel like you took all the right lessons (and none of the wrong ones) from this thread :)

also, what does a jbb and fungi go for on the server ?

There are actually three ways you can check this yourself, without even logging in to the game. All three rely on players uploading logs of their time in EC:


the wiki (wiki.project1999.com) - every item has a price history listed
AHungry's tracker (http://ahungry.com/eqauctions) - best data/worst UI
p99tunnel (p99tunnel.com) - best UI/worst data


Personally I paid 42k for a fungi a few months ago and I've seen JBBs for about 13k.


Didn't know if they were obtainable by 50.
If a shaman saves all their plat up to 45 there's a very good chance they'll be able to afford a JBB outright, and if not they should be able to earn the difference without spending a ton of time farming. The fungi on the other hand will probably be too expensive for any sub-50 character, or at least not without spending a crazy amount of time farming plat.

[Lhancelot]

This is the gist of it: JBB is not good. It's just not. It's an overrated, overhyped vanity item that you could outpace by using cannibalize and a real nuke. Same goes for the snare necklace. You've obviously never used either one.

Saying that an 8 second 263dd free mana clicky nuke is a "overhyped vanity item" only shows you have no idea what vanity means, or how useful a free clicky nuke is.

I won't break it down to you how or why because you lack the intellect to grasp the concept obviously.

I personally have used both the snare necklace on my human inny cleric, and I used the JBB on my ogre shaman, so I have experience with both. My shaman is 55 lvl now, and I still use the JBB and have basically zero downtime due to that item.

Proclaiming the JBB is useless might be true if you never use it, or don't know how to use it when leveling or farming stuff. I don't know how that's even possible...

Honestly it's not complicated or hard to understand how or why the clicky is useful. You are sounding very obtuse by saying the JBB is useless and a vanity item. lol.

Same goes for the snare necklace, the necklace can be very useful and really is a nice little item to have available. Is it gamebreaking? No. Is it nice to have versus not having? Absolutely!

You can justify the shortcomings of the iksar all you want, but really the only reason to pick an iksar for shaman is if you have a lizard fetish or love gimpy, retarded looking combat animations.

Trolls regen the same as iksar, get slam, and can use jaundiced clicky armors which can prove to be useful and are simply nice to have available.

He chose troll which is far better a choice than iksar, so good for him. He'd be better picking an ogre but second best race for shaman is better than next to worst. :p

[Samoht]

Like I said, someone smarter than you has already commented on that, ultimately dispelling all of your myths and misconceptions. Troll is still second worse choice. We all read your ogre warrior thread, so we know how delusional you are (warriors cannot channel).

[Lhancelot]

Like I said, someone smarter than you has already commented on that, ultimately dispelling all of your myths and misconceptions. Troll is still second worse choice. We all read your ogre warrior thread, so we know how delusional you are (warriors cannot channel).

Dude has a brain and recognizes the usefulness of the JBB. That's more than can be said for you, Thomas.

[Samoht]

Yeah, you've obviously misunderstood everything he said.

[Hitmonkey]

You realize the regen doesn't really become significant till 51+ right? But troll is fine race. Anything other than iksar tbh.

FSI > regen though.

Troll/iksar sitting regen at level 1 is one point less then your level 24 regen spell and at level 20 it's 6, one more.

At level 50+ trolls/iksar sitting regen is 2 more then chloro.....but ya besides that it sucks.

[Samoht]

It's like loramin said, he's just trying to justify his own decision by belittling everybody else's.

[justin84]

Do most skip the canni 2 quest and wait for canni 3? Seems thats what most did on live?
Didn't know if it was worth the time invested.

[Samoht]

Do most skip the canni 2 quest and wait for canni 3? Seems thats what most did on live?
Didn't know if it was worth the time invested.

A lot of the stuff required is too high level 39 shaman to do. The ratio is practically the same, and you don't gain that much more mana. I'd say do it on another character or buy it, otherwise skip it.

[loramin]

Do most skip the canni 2 quest and wait for canni 3? Seems thats what most did on live?
Didn't know if it was worth the time invested.

I asked the same question a few years back (not much has changed since) and got three pages worth of responses. Rather than try and repeat them I'll just offer this link:
Pre-Torpor: Cann II or Can III (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134265)

[Hitmonkey]

A lot of the stuff required is too high level 39 shaman to do. The ratio is practically the same, and you don't gain that much more mana. I'd say do it on another character or buy it, otherwise skip it.

You get assault where those yun spawn, I'm talking assaulted​.

[justin84]

Are there any quest I need to know about to help me along as a troll shaman other than the necklace quest? Would be my first troll so any troll/ogre quest would be new to me. Thanks.

[Darkatar]

Are there any quest I need to know about to help me along as a troll shaman other than the necklace quest? Would be my first troll so any troll/ogre quest would be new to me. Thanks.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ogre_Butcher_Gloves

Not really caster gear but those are some OP resists

Edit : https://wiki.project1999.com/Class_Race_Quest_List