Charming Misconceptions

[branamil]

There has been a trend from a lot of ignorant but loud people that having a charmed pet is always the right thing to do, even mandatory, without considering the whole picture. I've had people leave groups before because I wouldn't take a pet. It's an annoying trend that results in more headache than it's worth in some cases, especially with subpar groups. Charming is powerful in SOME but not ALL situations.

* If you can manage to kill all the spawns in your camp, and you have downtime waiting for spawns, charming one of your spawns is pointless. You didn't need more DPS.

* Charming uses up one of your spawn points. Nothing will spawn in your pet's spot until he's killed. This can be bad if you're trying to maximize XP or loot.

* It's an extra strain on your healers. It will break eventually. If your healer is struggling then perhaps charming isn't right for the group.

* Intense camps need all of your mana and casting time spent on mezzing and rooting and slowing and buffing. Random breaks are preventing the camp from going smoothly. One particular camp that I can think of is Karnor's basement. If you have an intense puller you can potentially get constant waves of 4+ mob pulls with no breaks, in a small space. You should probably focus on keeping the adds locked down 100% of the time.

* no afk time. It's very rare to go 3, 5, or 8 hour grind sessions without needing an afk.

For your average 6 man group the benefits are almost always marginal. Charming is probably best for camps with lots of room to recharm with little chance of taking damage - or oddball composition groups with extra heals and low dps - or duos with a healer specifically formed with charming in mind - or situationally trying to break a tough camp - or soloing of course.

[thebutthat]

My personal opinion on the matter is the only real reason to not have a charmed pet, is because your not at a level your able to viably hold one or there's a mechanic in the zone or glitch that prevents it.

All your bullet points can be mitigated by maintaining your runes/using stuns and breaking your pet when needed. Not adding the DPS because things die to fast, is about the silliest thing I've heard. Then you turn to say there's too many things...so you can't have a pet. If the zone is so busy that you can't find things to pull, then you kill your pet. And get a new one when things are moving again. That frees up your puller to go find more things to kill outside of your camp. You make it sound like the benefits are marginal, when in reality this post is promoting marginal gameplay. Which is fine, if your with people you know, and just relaxing. But a well played enchanter, should be up there in DPS as well as performing their other roles.

Will a group wipe if you don't have a charmed pet? Probably not. But time to kill is raised, which in return lowers your groups xp potential. If you really are pushing an 8 hour grind, charmed pet DPS is going to increase your groups efficiency a lot. Also charmed pets do have other utility in CCing and pulling as well.

The only time I can see you using an entire mana pool to CC a pull, is for a really bad pull that has something in excess of 6 mobs. Which means you're trained, and most groups would zone. But a good enchanter can turn that into a successful pull, and the added pet dps, makes the amount of time you have to maintain a big pull like that less. Also, what group is rolling without someone who can root a few, or root your pet if it does break mid pull? It's really not that complicated.

So yes, you should be charming in groups, especially in later groups where NPC dps is substantially higher than summoned pets. If you're not, your just MARGINALLY playing the class. Which...to each their own I guess.

[Pyrion]

I see 3 valid reasons for not having a charmed pet:

1) Group that is deficient in heals. If the healer is struggling even without any charms and causing downtimes than the added strain on heals might be counterproductive. The counterpoint here of course is "just use runes". But sometimes pets break when the chanter has other even more important things to do like mezzing 4 adds...

2) Chanter is too low for reliable charms.

3) In groups with lots of melees while still not being high level the chanter might struggle to keep haste up for all and keep charm up at the same time due to mana pool. Then a decision has to be made: keep up best haste for all or have charmed pet? It's not obvious what the best way to go is here, depends on situation.

[yorumi]

I know this is a little higher level than my chanter is but I swear when I read about charming I feel like I'm playing a different EQ than everyone else. My chanter isn't super twinked but I've got 201 buffed charisma at 35. Charm killing solo has been nothing short of outright infuriating. Blue tashed mobs outright resisting charm(not first tick break, outright resisting), multiple charm breaks before killing/gating. I just couldn't imagine holding a charmed pet in a party, let alone hasting the thing.

[thebutthat]

I know this is a little higher level than my chanter is but I swear when I read about charming I feel like I'm playing a different EQ than everyone else. My chanter isn't super twinked but I've got 201 buffed charisma at 35. Charm killing solo has been nothing short of outright infuriating. Blue tashed mobs outright resisting charm(not first tick break, outright resisting), multiple charm breaks before killing/gating. I just couldn't imagine holding a charmed pet in a party, let alone hasting the thing.

If you're having that much trouble you're charming to close to level. I like to shoot for 7-8 level gap between my pets at least. It's difficult to find that in the 20s and 30s. It becomes much easier in then 50s and 60.

[loramin]

If you're having that much trouble you're charming to close to level.

This! My Druid (I don't even know what his charisma score is, but it's crap) was getting tons of resists on the mobs in OT, and I couldn't understand why. Then I moved on to the alligators in Cazic Thule and resists suddenly became extremely rare.

Level matters ... a lot.

[Darkatar]

* If you can manage to kill all the spawns in your camp, and you have downtime waiting for spawns, charming one of your spawns is pointless. You didn't need more DPS.

* Charming uses up one of your spawn points. Nothing will spawn in your pet's spot until he's killed. This can be bad if you're trying to maximize XP or loot.

* It's an extra strain on your healers. It will break eventually. If your healer is struggling then perhaps charming isn't right for the group.

* Intense camps need all of your mana and casting time spent on mezzing and rooting and slowing and buffing. Random breaks are preventing the camp from going smoothly. One particular camp that I can think of is Karnor's basement. If you have an intense puller you can potentially get constant waves of 4+ mob pulls with no breaks, in a small space. You should probably focus on keeping the adds locked down 100% of the time.

* no afk time. It's very rare to go 3, 5, or 8 hour grind sessions without needing an afk.


-You can speed up kills, regardless of if you're clearing camp or not. Stuff dies faster = stuff respawns sooner = more exp/loot happens at a faster rate

-You can charm something that is not near your killing area. Alternatively, Drop the charm when the pet gets low HP and use that damage it took as a DPS boost to your group killing.

-As someone who has played healers for multiple years, I'm always for the enc charming when willing, More DPS = Less damage on the tank, more loot, more xp. If you have a super inexperienced or plain bad enchanter, or charming things out of your league, yes, I could see it as inefficient.

-Anyone who is asking their group ENC to charm -AND- slow -AND- CC -AND- Root ON TOP OF buffs, probably doesn't have a great concept of mana regeneration/usage for that class. If the enc is charming, you shouldn't be asking for much more than haste/C and maybe some sporadic mez/slows.

-If you need to AFK, there's nothing stopping you from suiciding, killing, or uncharm/memblurring the pet.

Edit:
But a well played enchanter, should be up there in DPS as well as performing their other roles.

I would go so far as to say, a charming enc is the highest DPS addition you can add. A light blue charmed pet will be on par with most rogues of the enc's level, and a charmed hasted rogue pet will outdps any PC hands down. With drawbacks, sure, but an incredible amount of DPS all the same

[Spyder73]

Sounds like you have gotten ate from charming a few times recently. I have certainly taken my fair share of 'learning curve' hits from learning to charm, but once you get a good feel for it the risk level goes way down. If you think the group is iffy or are worried about heals then don't haste the #$%^ out of him or give weapons. Unhasted/weaponless charm pet still does insane damage. Charming is borderline broken on P99 because of how much damage it adds. Aftermath did Vindy/Statue/AoW last night and the charmed giants did more damage then any of our DPS by a pretty significant margin.

[Crawdad]

Charmed pet DPS beats every other class in the game at pretty much every level range. If your group's fine with you not charming, do your thing I guess.. but you're not doing everything you could be. But hey its fine to be lazy sometimes. The only time I'm not charming on my Ench is 1) recouping after a wipe and 2) zone/camp specifics don't allow charming.

This! My Druid (I don't even know what his charisma score is, but it's crap) was getting tons of resists on the mobs in OT, and I couldn't understand why. Then I moved on to the alligators in Cazic Thule and resists suddenly became extremely rare.

Level matters ... a lot.

Druid charm is level based, no charisma checks :D So always pull barely blues and you'll have the best experience. I enjoy charming on my druid more than Ench really, just because SoW+Snare+Heals=trivial to charm. Too bad there's so few camps.

[yorumi]

If you're having that much trouble you're charming to close to level. I like to shoot for 7-8 level gap between my pets at least. It's difficult to find that in the 20s and 30s. It becomes much easier in then 50s and 60.

I generally stick to around 6 levels below me or more. At least according to the wiki. I really feel like my warrior solos better, specially if I have to drop the levels even farther. I'm practically killing greens at that point. I'm sure it gets better 50+, and it doesn't much matter cause i've kind of decided I just don't like the class. It's just the way people talk about charming I never expected it was this miserable.

[Doctor Jeff]

OP is a retarded person and there are 9 posts above this one explaining why, but I'll delve in myself for no good reason at all.



* If you can manage to kill all the spawns in your camp, and you have downtime waiting for spawns, charming one of your spawns is pointless. You didn't need more DPS.

So charm it from elsewhere, pull more mobs, or you know.... kill it when you've run out of mobs.


* Charming uses up one of your spawn points. Nothing will spawn in your pet's spot until he's killed. This can be bad if you're trying to maximize XP or loot.

So charm it from elsewhere, or you know.... kill it when you've run out of mobs.



* It's an extra strain on your healers. It will break eventually. If your healer is struggling then perhaps charming isn't right for the group.

If you're bad at your class, I can see this being an issue, but an actual enchanter above level 16 will take minimal damage from a recharm and the healer should have no reason to struggle. If you can't handle your pet, you just get a weaker one. A mob 10 levels lower than you will likely out damage the rogue in your group.



* Intense camps need all of your mana and casting time spent on mezzing and rooting and slowing and buffing. Random breaks are preventing the camp from going smoothly. One particular camp that I can think of is Karnor's basement. If you have an intense puller you can potentially get constant waves of 4+ mob pulls with no breaks, in a small space. You should probably focus on keeping the adds locked down 100% of the time.

Once again, is this from the perspective of someone who doesn't know how to play his class? Enchanting is about preparation, situational awareness, and timing. I agree that if you are moron, you shouldn't be trying to do both, but if you've made it to level 50 and you're CCing at Verix, you should definitely be able to keep a pet up. If not, go practice soloing somewhere so you can actually contribute.




* no afk time. It's very rare to go 3, 5, or 8 hour grind sessions without needing an afk.


You can easily afk, theres a nifty spell called root and another one called memblur. Getting rid of your pet takes 7-10 seconds at best.




For your average 6 man group the benefits are almost always marginal. Charming is probably best for camps with lots of room to recharm with little chance of taking damage - or oddball composition groups with extra heals and low dps - or duos with a healer specifically formed with charming in mind - or situationally trying to break a tough camp - or soloing of course.
Charming does not require as much space as you seem to think. You have an incredible arsenal of CC at your disposal, if your pets are getting through your runes even with 5 mobs cc'd in the background, you need to sort out your spell bar.
The benefits are astronomical, a charmed pet is an amazing off tank that can generally solo a mob by itself. A decent pet at the level you describe would be doing nearly double the DPS of any rogue the same level, and you get free xp when it runs low on health.


Overall I would say this enchanter is either level 15 or purchased his character on crimson walkthroughs.

1 star

[Doctor Jeff]

Honestly it seems like you don't actually want to play an enchanter, you should try some different classes.

[Naethyn]

My favorite hole group is warrior, cleric, enchanterx4. I prefer one of the enchanters (the lowest lv) to handles mezzes for pet breaks and stuns for healers. Sometimes all the pets break on same tick and it helps to have one guy there not getting hit.

[Doctor Jeff]

My favorite hole group is warrior, cleric, enchanterx4. I prefer one of the enchanters (the lowest lv) to handles mezzes for pet breaks and stuns for healers. Sometimes all the pets break on same tick and it helps to have one guy there not getting hit.

In that line, I would have to say I prefer 5 enchanters and a bard.

[Qtip]

There has been a trend from a lot of ignorant but loud people that having a charmed pet is always the right thing to do, even mandatory, without considering the whole picture. I've had people leave groups before because I wouldn't take a pet. It's an annoying trend that results in more headache than it's worth in some cases, especially with subpar groups. Charming is powerful in SOME but not ALL situations.

* If you can manage to kill all the spawns in your camp, and you have downtime waiting for spawns, charming one of your spawns is pointless. You didn't need more DPS.

* Charming uses up one of your spawn points. Nothing will spawn in your pet's spot until he's killed. This can be bad if you're trying to maximize XP or loot.

* It's an extra strain on your healers. It will break eventually. If your healer is struggling then perhaps charming isn't right for the group.

* Intense camps need all of your mana and casting time spent on mezzing and rooting and slowing and buffing. Random breaks are preventing the camp from going smoothly. One particular camp that I can think of is Karnor's basement. If you have an intense puller you can potentially get constant waves of 4+ mob pulls with no breaks, in a small space. You should probably focus on keeping the adds locked down 100% of the time.

* no afk time. It's very rare to go 3, 5, or 8 hour grind sessions without needing an afk.

For your average 6 man group the benefits are almost always marginal. Charming is probably best for camps with lots of room to recharm with little chance of taking damage - or oddball composition groups with extra heals and low dps - or duos with a healer specifically formed with charming in mind - or situationally trying to break a tough camp - or soloing of course.

* Break charm and kill pet.

* Ae stun, clicky, lvl 4 mez, clicky, tash, clicky and charm. Re do both runes with short duration one first.

* Below lvl 30ish, yes. After lvl 30 you should rarely run out of mana. After lvl 54 you will never run out of mana. Only use root if that mob is the next target. Use lvl 4/12 mez.

* To go afk you can 1) Kill it 2) Break charm and just have someone keep it rooted 3) Break charm, mez and mem blur.

* The benefits will always be better with a charmed pet. With a torch+mithril 2hd and haste, no one is touching a enc pet in dps.

[branamil]

OP is a retarded person and there are 9 posts above this one explaining why, but I'll delve in myself for no good reason at all.



So charm it from elsewhere, pull more mobs, or you know.... kill it when you've run out of mobs.


So charm it from elsewhere, or you know.... kill it when you've run out of mobs.



If you're bad at your class, I can see this being an issue, but an actual enchanter above level 16 will take minimal damage from a recharm and the healer should have no reason to struggle. If you can't handle your pet, you just get a weaker one. A mob 10 levels lower than you will likely out damage the rogue in your group.



Once again, is this from the perspective of someone who doesn't know how to play his class? Enchanting is about preparation, situational awareness, and timing. I agree that if you are moron, you shouldn't be trying to do both, but if you've made it to level 50 and you're CCing at Verix, you should definitely be able to keep a pet up. If not, go practice soloing somewhere so you can actually contribute.





You can easily afk, theres a nifty spell called root and another one called memblur. Getting rid of your pet takes 7-10 seconds at best.




Charming does not require as much space as you seem to think. You have an incredible arsenal of CC at your disposal, if your pets are getting through your runes even with 5 mobs cc'd in the background, you need to sort out your spell bar.
The benefits are astronomical, a charmed pet is an amazing off tank that can generally solo a mob by itself. A decent pet at the level you describe would be doing nearly double the DPS of any rogue the same level, and you get free xp when it runs low on health.


Overall I would say this enchanter is either level 15 or purchased his character on crimson walkthroughs.

1 star


You must play on red. I'll just remind you that we're discussing a *game* and you had a choice to be a miserable person. Get pussy, do drugs, or something, cause you sound depressed and angry.

[thebutthat]

I generally stick to around 6 levels below me or more. At least according to the wiki. I really feel like my warrior solos better, specially if I have to drop the levels even farther. I'm practically killing greens at that point. I'm sure it gets better 50+, and it doesn't much matter cause i've kind of decided I just don't like the class. It's just the way people talk about charming I never expected it was this miserable.

It's certainly not everyone's cup of tea and isn't always super smooth. I personally enjoy it more in a duo or trio. I don't think I can say I was really enjoying the class until probably my late 30's when I was starting to solo lower guk. Then moving to CoM soloing the arena and temple, and progressing to more difficult places. Getting the regnant free rune, the higher cha buffs, better hastes/slows/boon and eventually theft of thought really take out the clunkiness I experienced in the early levels.

[thebutthat]

You must play on red. I'll just remind you that we're discussing a *game* and you had a choice to be a miserable person. Get pussy, do drugs, or something, cause you sound depressed and angry.

I think you read his post in your own voice. So it's you just reading depressed and angry. Hope this helps. (https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder206/500x/44514206.jpg)

[Doctor Jeff]

You must play on red. I'll just remind you that we're discussing a *game* and you had a choice to be a miserable person. Get pussy, do drugs, or something, cause you sound depressed and angry.

You seem a bit insecure, and you are definitely projecting.

Sorry you're bad at games and sorry you lost.

[icedwards]

I think you severely underestimate how good a charmed pet is for dps.

[Fri Apr 21 22:03:05 2017] Rupees tells the guild, 'Tunare in 313s, 766k @2449dps --- A thifling sprite 141k @462dps --- Synth 27k @89dps --- Rupees 27k @87dps --- Akashx 27k @87dps --- Koraf 26k @85dps --- Seedss 25k @80dps --- Samila 24k @78dps --- Mattis 24k @76dps --- Murderdeathkill 23k @76dps --- Ninjury 23k @74dps --- Mudwart 22k @74dps --- Tevh 21k @70dps --- Bathory 21k @69dps --- Wreckedum 20k @65dps --- Raugers 18k @60dps --- Showmee 18k @59dps'

That's our parse from Tunare last night. There were actually 2 sprites, so each accounted for 231dps - nearly 10x our top performing rogue!

By time you hit level 50 people will expect you to know your class, for an enchanter that includes charming a pet. If you're not comfortable with charming by time you get to KC you should seriously consider rolling another class.

[branamil]

You seem a bit insecure, and you are definitely projecting.

Sorry you're bad at games and sorry you lost.

The internet equivalent of, "no you are!" Very original bro. Also try not to sound like a prick, if you can help it.

[thebutthat]

Clearly troll post got the Heuheuheu he was hoping for. Shame on us for biting.

[Doctor Jeff]

The internet equivalent of, "no you are!" Very original bro. Also try not to sound like a prick, if you can help it.

Try this.

Everything you said in your OP was incorrect.

Hope this helps.

[branamil]

Wow, 1500 posts, you must be an esteemed member of this 90s MMO community. How's your social life going friend?

[Scaer]

Speaking of breaking charm... DE Necro can break charm quite easy. Hide > FD. Hide ability for DE is like having a pre-nerf COS. Instantaneously breaks the charm. FD, wait for the mob to move off, stand up and tap the remaining HPs out of it.

[Doctor Jeff]

Wow, 1500 posts, you must be an esteemed member of this 90s MMO community. How's your social life going friend?

It's unaffected, actually. As you can tell from my post history, I'm only on the forum in my down time at work.

[Izmael]

The internet equivalent of, "no you are!" Very original bro. Also try not to sound like a prick, if you can help it.

Why are you feeding a troll? Ignoring them is the silver bullet that works 100% of the time.

On topic - I leveled too many enchanters to admit, most of the time charming stuff, and must say there are plenty of situations I will refrain from charming if in a full(ish) group scenario. What you outlined in your OP is all correct, and I'd add a couple situations that come to mind where I'd avoid charming:

- playing eq and watching a baby/child
- playing at work and potentially having to suddenly afk for an unknown length of time
- not trusting your healer
- playing too drunk

List can go on

[mickmoranis]

op is wrong i see there are 3 pages though.

charm something from someone else's camp that wouldnt let you join them, its simple everquest.

[fash]

I am an ignorant and loud person that refuses to take constructive criticism and doesn't consider the whole picture.

ftfy. At least the thread title accurately describes OP.

Previous posters already addressed your misconceptions and pointed out the enchanter tools you've overlooked. I'll just add that you seem to rely too much on your healer based on your comments. Keep up double runes and develop some situational awareness so charm breaks don't have time to land multiple rounds on you.

If you're in a subpar group, set the pace of the group and arrange for the group to support you and your pet. If you aren't charming because you think the group is subpar, you're just making the group worse.

The only good reason to not charm presented here was being too busy/distracted IRL to focus or being a drug addled degenerate who lacks situational awareness. At which point, don't play the class that requires the most focus and awareness. Wiz and rog are better options.

[Diogene]

How to turn down a legit thread into a shit fest.
100% nerd rage. Stupid kids. I remember about a year or two the very same thread popped up, consensus was different. People kindly agreed charming would ideally be situational and when groups were expecting it as if it was mandatory, these were just outplaying it. Now, I'm not here to say they were right or wrong, but they were at least more civilized. Why in the hell do we need to name OP as if he was retarded ? He's obviously not and I'm sure he made some points. Now the consensus is : OP is a moron, he needs to play something else. OMG, this just make the server community looks retarded.

[Ivah]

OP is a retarded person and there are 9 posts above this one explaining why, but I'll delve in myself for no good reason at all.



So charm it from elsewhere, pull more mobs, or you know.... kill it when you've run out of mobs.


So charm it from elsewhere, or you know.... kill it when you've run out of mobs.



If you're bad at your class, I can see this being an issue, but an actual enchanter above level 16 will take minimal damage from a recharm and the healer should have no reason to struggle. If you can't handle your pet, you just get a weaker one. A mob 10 levels lower than you will likely out damage the rogue in your group.



Once again, is this from the perspective of someone who doesn't know how to play his class? Enchanting is about preparation, situational awareness, and timing. I agree that if you are moron, you shouldn't be trying to do both, but if you've made it to level 50 and you're CCing at Verix, you should definitely be able to keep a pet up. If not, go practice soloing somewhere so you can actually contribute.





You can easily afk, theres a nifty spell called root and another one called memblur. Getting rid of your pet takes 7-10 seconds at best.




Charming does not require as much space as you seem to think. You have an incredible arsenal of CC at your disposal, if your pets are getting through your runes even with 5 mobs cc'd in the background, you need to sort out your spell bar.
The benefits are astronomical, a charmed pet is an amazing off tank that can generally solo a mob by itself. A decent pet at the level you describe would be doing nearly double the DPS of any rogue the same level, and you get free xp when it runs low on health.


Overall I would say this enchanter is either level 15 or purchased his character on crimson walkthroughs.

1 star

Thx for making thread readable I skipped over it yesterday

[thebutthat]

How to turn down a legit thread into a shit fest.
100% nerd rage. Stupid kids. I remember about a year or two the very same thread popped up, consensus was different. People kindly agreed charming would ideally be situational and when groups were expecting it as if it was mandatory, these were just outplaying it. Now, I'm not here to say they were right or wrong, but they were at least more civilized. Why in the hell do we need to name OP as if he was retarded ? He's obviously not and I'm sure he made some points. Now the consensus is : OP is a moron, he needs to play something else. OMG, this just make the server community looks retarded.

min/max or gtfo (http://www.untoldentertainment.com/blog/img/2009_09_09/nerdRage.jpg)

[aaezil]

OMG, this just make the server community looks retarded.

[Ivah]

How to turn down a legit thread into a shit fest.
100% nerd rage. Stupid kids. I remember about a year or two the very same thread popped up, consensus was different. People kindly agreed charming would ideally be situational and when groups were expecting it as if it was mandatory, these were just outplaying it. Now, I'm not here to say they were right or wrong, but they were at least more civilized. Why in the hell do we need to name OP as if he was retarded ? He's obviously not and I'm sure he made some points. Now the consensus is : OP is a moron, he needs to play something else. OMG, this just make the server community looks retarded.
"This just MAKE the server community LOOKS retarded"?! Sry buddy you just did it yourself

[Diogene]

"This just MAKE the server community LOOKS retarded"?! Sry buddy you just did it yourself

We are not all native english speakers if you are referring about grammar problems, but thanks for the heads up.

[Izmael]

Keep up double runes and develop some situational awareness so charm breaks don't have time to land multiple rounds on you.

Runes do not block stuns, if a stun lands on you on that first round from the pet, you will take more melee rounds from him, even if you think very highly of your chanting skills.

Your fastest stun takes 1 second to cast - a high level hasted pet has well under 1 second delay between melee rounds.

Bedlam + Rune V is 950 hp. If your pet quads for 180 or more, thats one round from your pet and its target. 0,5 seconds later, your pet is eating through your HP, while you are just starting to cast your stun (which can be resisted, interrupted, or you can get summoned again if your pet and target are both summoners).




If you aren't charming because you think the group is subpar, you're just making the group worse.


Sure, crack, haste and CC makes a subpar group worse.

[Ivah]

We are not all native english speakers if you are referring about grammar problems, but thanks for the heads up.

Change that avatar plz. Does not match that sense of humor.

[Jimjam]

Runes do not block stuns, if a stun lands on you on that first round from the pet, you will take more melee rounds from him, even if you think very highly of your chanting skills.

Your fastest stun takes 1 second to cast - a high level hasted pet has well under 1 second delay between melee rounds.

Bedlam + Rune V is 950 hp. If your pet quads for 180 or more, thats one round from your pet and its target. 0,5 seconds later, your pet is eating through your HP, while you are just starting to cast your stun (which can be resisted, interrupted, or you can get summoned again if your pet and target are both summoners).






Sure, crack, haste and CC makes a subpar group worse.

Does ogre illusion grant fsi? I rarely see a blob enc, but perhaps it is worth it?

[Izmael]

Does ogre illusion grant fsi? I rarely see a blob enc, but perhaps it is worth it?

Don't think it does, though I never tested it thoroughly.

Also when you get summoned, the mob kinda has your back - double backstab for 700+ from named spiders in Velk immediately upon summon are a painful proof.

[Lowako]

Runes do not block stuns, if a stun lands on you on that first round from the pet, you will take more melee rounds from him, even if you think very highly of your chanting skills.

Your fastest stun takes 1 second to cast - a high level hasted pet has well under 1 second delay between melee rounds.

Bedlam + Rune V is 950 hp. If your pet quads for 180 or more, thats one round from your pet and its target. 0,5 seconds later, your pet is eating through your HP, while you are just starting to cast your stun (which can be resisted, interrupted, or you can get summoned again if your pet and target are both summoners).





Sure, crack, haste and CC makes a subpar group worse.
Apologizing in advance for a disorganized post that rambles on as I'm quite tired, but I think I convey my point pretty well.

If you have a shitty, slow killing group, charming a pet is usually going to be better than hasting your shitty group members. Also, you can position your character in a way so that you can start casting stun/mez before your pet gets back into melee range of you. Even if you charm summoning stuff in a group, you just have to make an effort to not let your pet tank stuff to avoid putting it in summoning range.

The reason why people see charming as mandatory these days is because even a mediocre charmed pet is worth like 2 monks/rangers/shitty rogues worth of DPS, or greater than or equal to 1 Good Rogue's worth of DPS. To call a charmed pet a marginal benefit in a 6 man group is a massive understatement. Lets look at a theoretical situation for a typical group. You have 6 people, a Warrior, 2 Rogues, a Cleric, an Enchanter, and a Monk that is pulling. Lets assume the rogues are buffed and have epic, and the combined DPS of the warrior and pulling monk combined is worth about 1 buffed epic rogue of DPS. Your group is doing on average, 3 Good Rogues worth of DPS. Add a charmed pet to that mix, now you'll have roughly 4 Good Rogues worth of DPS. Thats a 33% increase to your groups kill speed. I wouldn't call that a marginal gain, and that is in a pretty high DPS group.

Lets look at another theoretical group. One that isn't quite as optimized. You have an SK tank, a cleric, a non-epic Rogue, a Ranger, an enchanter, and a Monk that is pulling. Oh no, this group of players lacks key items like epics to help them deal damage, or naturally does less damage because of their class. It's not unreasonable to assume that this group is only going to do 2 Good Rogues worth of DPS. Add a charmed pet to this clown fiesta of adventurers who consider wooden cooking spoons viable weaponry and now you have 3 Good Rogues worth of DPS. That's a 50% boost to your groups kill speed. That's a pretty big deal.

An enchanter with no charmed pet adds about 1 group member worth of value. An enchanter with a charmed pet adds about 2-3 group members worth of value. If you're only bringing half potential to a group, people most likely won't want to group with you in the future regardless of the class you play. An enchanter that keeps their group buffed, maintains a charmed pet, and helps deal with adds isn't some kind of myth or feat that requires superhuman play. People have used charm pets solo and in groups at every level range to great effect.

side note, if your puller is consistently training your group with 4+ mobs you need to tell them to stop being a walking trash bin and bring in singles/doubles.

[Izmael]

I agree (and everyone does), that charming a pet will usually help a group. I disagree, however, with the statement that it ALWAYS will. That's what the topic is about.

[Izmael]

side note, if your puller is consistently training your group with 4+ mobs you need to tell them to stop being a walking trash bin and bring in singles/doubles.

Again, it is situational. If your puller is a warrior he'll bring what he can. In many many spots, bringing a few at a time will actually do good to the exp rate as your camp will always have something to kill, no need to sit around waiting for the puller to run back.

[Jimjam]

Again, it is situational. If your puller is a warrior he'll bring what he can. In many many spots, bringing a few at a time will actually do good to the exp rate as your camp will always have something to kill, no need to sit around waiting for the puller to run back.

Yea, this is definitely a taste issue. Some enchanters thrive on a full camp, others like 3 mobs in camp (pet, MA target and third mob to mez/root/tash/preslow). There are many variations.

Of course some like to afk and refresh haste/c every 15 mins :p.

[Izmael]

Of course some like to afk and refresh haste/c every 15 mins :p.

These picked the wrong class ;)

[Doctor Jeff]

In bear pits we pulled 15 mobs at a time.

[branamil]

side note, if your puller is consistently training your group with 4+ mobs you need to tell them to stop being a walking trash bin and bring in singles/doubles.

Constructive points all around.

Only quoting this point because I've seen otherwise, we had a decked out group
In Karnors basement, with insane melee dps, i think it was 2 epic rogues, and the place to ourselves, could pull any camp we wanted. I was basically casting AoE mez nonstop, it was just faster. We didn't really need to split.

[Troxx]

I've been in more than a few groups where a poorly timed break with 4 incoming to camp wiped the whole group. Granted, in each case if our enchanter had been better, our healer better geared and more attentive, our other group mates quicker with roots they didn't use to control the chaos, etc ... probably wouldn't have wiped.

But ... that's the life of a pickup group on p99. People afk, briefly look away, aren't always the most talented, or are poorly geared or slightly under level. In those instances, I'd agree that charming isn't always the best idea. Often the rate of killing isn't limited by group dps - so more charmed chainsaw adds nominal value while increasing the risk.

Charming is great.

I've grouped with plenty of enchanters I wanted to charm who didn't.

I've also grouped with plenty of enchanters who charmed but I wish hadn't.

I've grouped with necromancers who charmed low level mobs but never hasted or torched them and then sat their like a bump on a log babysitting their pet only (nothing else) feeling like they were contributing while their pet pumped out an incredible 32dps ... compared to their summoned rogue pet who was capable of 50dps.

[Samoht]

Only quoting this point because I've seen otherwise, we had a decked out group
In Karnors basement, with insane melee dps, i think it was 2 epic rogues, and the place to ourselves, could pull any camp we wanted. I was basically casting AoE mez nonstop, it was just faster. We didn't really need to split.

Yeah, this is actually what a competent Enchanter wants. Splitting is dumb and takes too long. There's CC in the group for a reason.

[Troxx]

Especially since the monk change ... if you're not using a class that can lull splitting mobs takes an absurd amount of time and/or using 2 to peel mobs during feign. Monk is then flopped for the duration of aggro reset and not doing dps.

If you have enchanter (or bard or whatever) CC - use it and pull heartily.

[Pyrion]

Does ogre illusion grant fsi? I rarely see a blob enc, but perhaps it is worth it?

I tested it recently, it does not grant fsi unfortunately.

[Darkatar]

I tested it recently, it does not grant fsi unfortunately.

Ogre's don't lose FSI while illusioned, thankfully.

[brecon]

An Enchanter has 3 main resources:
(1) Mana
(2) Cast time
(3) HP

If you don't have enough of any of these 3 to maintain a charmed pet, then you shouldn't charm. In every other situation, you should. Let me explain.

(1) Mana - Charming requires you to maintain enough mana to handle charm breaks. Over time, this averages to a set amount, and you want to keep a buffer. Ofc, an enchanter uses mana for other things. The approximate order of priority is Clarity, Self Buffs, CC, Melee Haste, (sometimes) Slows, then Charm Pet. Without any real strain on the mana pool, an enchanter can take care of Buffs and CC. The question is whether you are slowing or charming a pet, especially pre-TOT.

If you are the only slower, and slows are necessary for the content and group makeup, and after slowing you don't have enough mana to maintain a charmed pet...then don't charm one. If you go OOM after slowing and get a bad pet break or two, you can wipe the group. IF, however, you have a well geared tank and a CH cleric, then you probably don't need to slow all the time or if at all. In which case, don't slow and just keep a pet.

(2) Cast Time - Charming pets takes up time, unexpectedly. If your puller is chain pulling and you have to spam AOE mez...then a bad charm break can wipe you. You also need to manage your pet around the correct target (which is just a /pet assist macro), but mistargeting and letting two mobs go can be a real issues, especially if you miss the next mez. The BEST enchanters can do both no problem, as long as they don't run into mana issues (see 1). But not all enchanters are the best. If an enchanter says he's not comfortable with a pet while intense CC is going on...I get it.

(3) HP - Maybe you are out of Runes, or can't keep up Runes with your mana usage (again, violating 1). Maybe you have a single cleric healing, who is mana strained and can't interrupt CHs fast enough to keep you alive. Maybe AOE packs are in such close quarters that you can't recharm bc your AE stun generates too much aggro on you. Basically...if you die, you can't CC anything. So if you are unable to charm because your group cannot keep you alive, then don't charm a pet.

NOW- there are miscellanous supplementary reasons why you don't want to charm. But these are things like not enough mobs, no mobs that are low enough, a need to ninja-afk. The first two are particular circumstances to an Enchanter being in certain camps (like MM Pond) or being underleveled for content (I know once I was brought to LGUK Ass/Sup to basiclally jsut be a buff-bot bc I was underleveled). But these are special circumstances. If you need to ninja-afk and are worried about charm breaks...then I hope you're not the main CC as well.

[Lowako]

Especially since the monk change ... if you're not using a class that can lull splitting mobs takes an absurd amount of time and/or using 2 to peel mobs during feign. Monk is then flopped for the duration of aggro reset and not doing dps.

If you have enchanter (or bard or whatever) CC - use it and pull heartily.

completely forgot about the monk changes, recently started playing again after a 4 month break from the game. splitting in an EXP group seems pretty pointless now unless you're doing something like spore king. I also forgot AE mez existed, I'm rusty at this game =/

pulling 4 mobs at a time definitely seems more efficient then, as long as the enchanter is on top of mezzes or you have a bard or something pulling/to back you up.

[mickmoranis]

this post just make the server community looks retarded.

fixed your post for you

[Troxx]

completely forgot about the monk changes, recently started playing again after a 4 month break from the game. splitting in an EXP group seems pretty pointless now unless you're doing something like spore king. I also forgot AE mez existed, I'm rusty at this game =/

pulling 4 mobs at a time definitely seems more efficient then, as long as the enchanter is on top of mezzes or you have a bard or something pulling/to back you up.

Indeed. Doing something as simple as hands/WL in Karnors Castle is a pain. Unless you've got a group capable of handling the CC from all 4 dogs at once ... or willing to have 2 people reliably and competently work together on tagging at the precisely correct moment necessary without bringing all 4 back ...

It's better to have a ranger/druid/bard/paladin (lull) ... or hell the f'n tank without lull (warrior/sk) pull that camp. The monk days of being the supreme puller class are over. Bards take the cake indoors most of the time. Unresistable ranger harmony makes them extremely capable in outdoor zones.

Monk FD still helps you drop unwanted extra aggro ... so they've still got THAT over making the tank pull. They have their niche and certainly strut their stuff in harder indoor camps like seb king (and occasionally CE seb) or splitting PoZs in kael arena. But monk pulling these days in all other aspects really are no better or worse than any other class pulling.

If you've got a ranger or extra warrior/knight - it's honestly better to let them chain pull most of the time so the monk can optimize dps.

[Troxx]

An Enchanter has 3 main resources:
(1) Mana
(2) Cast time
(3) HP

If you don't have enough of any of these 3 to maintain a charmed pet, then you shouldn't charm. In every other situation, you should. Let me explain.

(1) Mana - Charming requires you to maintain enough mana to handle charm breaks. Over time, this averages to a set amount, and you want to keep a buffer. Ofc, an enchanter uses mana for other things. The approximate order of priority is Clarity, Self Buffs, CC, Melee Haste, (sometimes) Slows, then Charm Pet. Without any real strain on the mana pool, an enchanter can take care of Buffs and CC. The question is whether you are slowing or charming a pet, especially pre-TOT.

If you are the only slower, and slows are necessary for the content and group makeup, and after slowing you don't have enough mana to maintain a charmed pet...then don't charm one. If you go OOM after slowing and get a bad pet break or two, you can wipe the group. IF, however, you have a well geared tank and a CH cleric, then you probably don't need to slow all the time or if at all. In which case, don't slow and just keep a pet.

(2) Cast Time - Charming pets takes up time, unexpectedly. If your puller is chain pulling and you have to spam AOE mez...then a bad charm break can wipe you. You also need to manage your pet around the correct target (which is just a /pet assist macro), but mistargeting and letting two mobs go can be a real issues, especially if you miss the next mez. The BEST enchanters can do both no problem, as long as they don't run into mana issues (see 1). But not all enchanters are the best. If an enchanter says he's not comfortable with a pet while intense CC is going on...I get it.

(3) HP - Maybe you are out of Runes, or can't keep up Runes with your mana usage (again, violating 1). Maybe you have a single cleric healing, who is mana strained and can't interrupt CHs fast enough to keep you alive. Maybe AOE packs are in such close quarters that you can't recharm bc your AE stun generates too much aggro on you. Basically...if you die, you can't CC anything. So if you are unable to charm because your group cannot keep you alive, then don't charm a pet.

NOW- there are miscellanous supplementary reasons why you don't want to charm. But these are things like not enough mobs, no mobs that are low enough, a need to ninja-afk. The first two are particular circumstances to an Enchanter being in certain camps (like MM Pond) or being underleveled for content (I know once I was brought to LGUK Ass/Sup to basiclally jsut be a buff-bot bc I was underleveled). But these are special circumstances. If you need to ninja-afk and are worried about charm breaks...then I hope you're not the main CC as well.

Good post.

+1

[Izmael]

Saying an enchanter should always charm is like saying a druid should always quad kite.

[fash]

Saying an enchanter should always charm is like saying a druid should always quad kite.

or that a shaman should always canni.

[Izmael]

Finally we're getting onto something.

[Neric]

Back in the day I never charmed stuff as a rule of thumb. The only exception was a ghoul wizard in Guk. There is simply no need to do damage as enchanter. People will just love you when they survive the whole night without a single death.

[Jimjam]

Saying an enchanter should always charm is like saying a druid should always quad kite port.

ftfy

[Neric]

I think there is an explanation for this ongoing solo-madness amongst chanters on P99. They all started this class because it's supposed to be overpowered, but they don't trust their ability to play crowd control, so they rather solo. That's not how this class is meant to be played.

A good enchanter will build a reputation over time and get tells to join groups every time he logs in. While you can solo, there is simply no need for it, other than doing circus acts like killing the Lord in Guk for fun.

[Ivah]

I think there is an explanation for this ongoing solo-madness amongst chanters on P99. They all started this class because it's supposed to be overpowered, but they don't trust their ability to play crowd control, so they rather solo. That's not how this class is meant to be played.

A good enchanter will build a reputation over time and get tells to join groups every time he logs in. While you can solo, there is simply no need for it, other than doing circus acts like killing the Lord in Guk for fun.
Gonna go with option B. A good enchanter will not waste time with garbage players/groups.