Best three man group? With some Criteria.

[Hueborn]

I'm going to be playing with my dad and cousin in a three man group. I have played EQ on and off for sometime. My dad isn't a twitch player.

I want a group that can get the most done with only three people. Also, the group must be sensitive to the fact that one of the players is my dad. So some crazy charm kiting, bard bellowing, quad kiting group probably wouldn't be ideal.

My ideas so far:

Barbarian ROG,WAR,SHM

All the same starting area, that's nice. Best tank, Best slower, and High DPS. Pulling and crowd control suffer with no MNK or Chanter.

My other idea:

Human MNK , SHD
Barbarian SHM

Humans are close to Barbarians, so we could get together easy. Just need to power thru Black Burrow with the SHM. Best puller MNK, best slower SHM. I like that extra bit of utility of movement slow in dungeons and fear for dropping bigger stuff outdoors. I guess this spot could also be PAL or WAR and would work pretty well.

The last Idea:

WAR, CLR, ENC


Any ideas would be much appreciated. I also have to submit for an IP exemption, is that gonna be hard? or can you still do that? 2 of them are gonna be at the same house.

Thanks.

[Izmael]

War lacks snap aggro which is really very convenient.

Maybe try SK or PAL as tank?

Tank, shaman, rogue is nice

[articnv]

Tank cleric enc - pet dps is inane dps

[Yoink1986]

Mage,Mage,Mage ��

[Hueborn]

Okay. Pretty sure I'm going with MNK/SHM. It's just that third spot.

I'm not too worried about snap agro. With good MNK pulls, SHM root parking, and AE slows in higher more hectic places.

I'm thinking another MNK or a WAR might be good?

With a MNK two Mends popping can help heals, FD to share agro/dmg well between them.

With a WAR's higher AC the DMG taken would be less, but DPS would drop.

Not sure what's better.

[Lowako]

Okay. Pretty sure I'm going with MNK/SHM. It's just that third spot.

I'm not too worried about snap agro. With good MNK pulls, SHM root parking, and AE slows in higher more hectic places.

I'm thinking another MNK or a WAR might be good?

With a MNK two Mends popping can help heals, FD to share agro/dmg well between them.

With a WAR's higher AC the DMG taken would be less, but DPS would drop.

Not sure what's better.
I think monks tank better than warriors outside of defensive/evasive discipline, even before huge gear levels. Monk+Rogue+Shaman would be a good trio. You tank+pull on the monk, rogue does damage, shaman slows+heals. Could also do monk+cleric+enchanter. Enchanter charm easily adds a rogues worth of DPS if you have someone that feels comfortable doing that. plus you get to add a much better healer while maintaining the ability to slow, along with better crowd control.

[Amyas]

Druid Enc war

[Tayy]

Monk, shaman, enchanter

Enchanter for extra buffs, CC and charm pet will bring the dps you need. Chanter and shaman can also do pretty much any camp in the game.

[RDawg816]

Why not iksar?

Shm Mnk Nec

Shaman and necro have great synergy and monk can tank anything you'll be slowing....

[Darkatar]

I'm going to be playing with my dad and cousin in a three man group. I have played EQ on and off for sometime. My dad isn't a twitch player.

-I want a group that can get the most done with only three people.

-Also, the group must be sensitive to the fact that one of the players is my dad.

-So some crazy charm kiting, bard bellowing, quad kiting group probably wouldn't be ideal.



Monk, shaman, enchanter

Enchanter for extra buffs, CC and charm pet will bring the dps you need. Chanter and shaman can also do pretty much any camp in the game.

I see Shaman/Monk/Shadowknight/Cle/Enc/War/Rog in those choices, so I'll start from there.

As far as clericing goes, for a 3man team, you don't really -need- a cleric. Especially if you're not doing those crazy charm strats. Really, even if you are doing crazy charm strats, you might appreciate the malosini debuff+heal more than extra HP from a cleric+Healing.

A shaman would be a great support for a +2melee trio, or +enc+melee trio (even without charm).

As far as melee choices go, In a trio, you probably don't -need- a warrior tank unless you already have someone who wants to play warrior.

Assuming one person is a healer, you're left 2 options for your melee.

A Monk/Rogue combo would be a super strong choice, not as tankly as War/Knights, but you need someone who is capable of pulling without bringing the whole room every time. You could substitute an enchanter for one of your melee, and use a non-monk melee puller, as an alternative, and just mez adds.

This all depends on your groups twitch skill.

It's much easier for a monk(/+rogue) combo to slowly work through rooms with FD and sneak throws, than it is to be ready to bomb mez on time on pull every big pull.

The sham/monk/sk combo is pretty good, two FDs and snare make pulling a snap, They're gonna be a little light on the dps, and the SK has to med to use spells, without an ENC that presents problems in the long term. You could adjust that composition to SK/Enc/Sham, but then lack of DPS is a real problem unless the enc charm DPS's consistently.

Imho, combine your first two ideas of rog/war/sham and mnk/shd/sham and go for monk/rog/sham.
Easy enough pulls, dps for days, all the buffs you need. Monk+Rogue can stop dangerous casters in their tracks with their insane push.

Shaman has to be willing to press that canni button before hitting 100% HP and able to buff the group.
Rogue needs to keep backstab on cooldown.
Monk needs to be able to pull without wrecking himself.

If you think your team is skilled enough for that then you got yourself a real winner of a combo there.

As far as aggro concerns / root parking for aggro, once the rogue has evade, the monk should have no problem keeping aggro. Really a monk with any proc weapon should have little to no problems out-aggroing a similar gear level rogue.

As far as race choices, Definitely would recommend the monk goes iksar, shaman should go troll/iksar for regen as well. That may make it harder to meet up, but it's going to be a large impact in the long run having the tank+canni-hp-to-mana-healer permanent bonus regenning.

I'd also almost be willing to bet real money, that if you needed help getting your group gathered up so you can grind together, there would be no shortage of people willing to help get your crew ported to the same spot.

Edit:
Okay. Pretty sure I'm going with MNK/SHM. It's just that third spot.

I'm not too worried about snap agro. With good MNK pulls, SHM root parking, and AE slows in higher more hectic places.

I'm thinking another MNK or a WAR might be good?

With a MNK two Mends popping can help heals, FD to share agro/dmg well between them.

With a WAR's higher AC the DMG taken would be less, but DPS would drop.

Not sure what's better.

You'll be tanking slowed 1group-or-less difficulty mobs, The ac benefit of the warrior would probably be outweighed by any good DPS option in such a small group situation.

Mob dies faster, less damage to heal.

A second monk isn't bad, but a little redundant. With a rogue you get access to some of the harder-to-adventure-in areas with lockpicking, as well as being a superior DPS outputter next to monks. They can also corpse recovery out of the shittiest of places, nude, while half asleep, with sneak/hide.

If you're trying to squeeze extra heals out of the combo, Rogues aren't bad backup brigade healers with monks. Both are pure melee classes, and as such, can skill bind wound past 200 and are able to BW to 70%hp when they do. Two pure melees bind wounding a canni shaman will quickly push up the manabar.

Having a Monk/Rogue instead of Monk/Monk also lets you bring in some different proc weapons for situations where they're needed. Fighting lots of green trash? Rogue can put on a slow proc dagger and let the sham focus on something else. Runners a problem? Rogue tosses on a snare dagger. Monks get some awesome useful procs too like Tstaff, but that's pretty top-end and possibly not relevant to you guys for a long time.

[Tecmos Deception]

Okay. Pretty sure I'm going with MNK/SHM. It's just that third spot.

I'm not too worried about snap agro. With good MNK pulls, SHM root parking, and AE slows in higher more hectic places.

I'm thinking another MNK or a WAR might be good?

With a MNK two Mends popping can help heals, FD to share agro/dmg well between them.

With a WAR's higher AC the DMG taken would be less, but DPS would drop.

Not sure what's better.

If you're doing shaman+monk for the first two characters, almost anything will work for the third, including a second monk or a warrior.

However, if you're concerned that your dad can't handle (or doesn't want to handle) things like charming or quadding? Well... he probably isn't shaman material at all (they're really busy to play well), and he probably isn't monk material if the monk needs to be tanking and pulling either (pulling can be demanding). Most casters can be played without a lot of effort, although a chanter/necro/bard/druid who isn't on top of his game is only half of what the class could be (again, all classes that have a lot to pay attention to and do to get a good bang for the buck).

Mage, monk (who isn't the puller), warrior, rogue maybe... might be the best choices to work well with shaman+monk while also not being as demanding in order to contribute a lot? Mage, monk, and rogue do a ton of DPS and can just hang out with the shaman most of the time while the (first) monk does pulling and tanking. Druid would be solid too though without being quite as demanding in this trio as chanter/necro/bard... they contribute a fair amount of damage through dots and damage shield, can help with some buffs to relieve mana costs for shaman, have snare and roots for CC, and ports would be fantastic for a trio like this imo.

[aubie]

Question. Just for the all around ease of grouping/leveling, why wouldn't a paladin, rogue, druid group be the best? I know it probably wouldn't be the most efficient/powerful group, but as far as just grouping, leveling, traveling and enjoying play, it seems pretty good.

Pally can hold aggro so rogue can DPS max, and druid can basically regen/heal/DS pally and snare mob while medding. Travel is easy with ports/SoW. Pally can heal well later with clicky and spells plus LOH for emergency and rez at some point. For casual fun, this would seem like the winner. Druid can invis, Pally can ITU, and rogue can CR if needed and lockpick. Seems like this group would allow you to cover the most content.

[Darkatar]

Question. Just for the all around ease of grouping/leveling, why wouldn't a paladin, rogue, druid group be the best? I know it probably wouldn't be the most efficient/powerful group, but as far as just grouping, leveling, traveling and enjoying play, it seems pretty good.

Pally can hold aggro so rogue can DPS max, and druid can basically regen/heal/DS pally and snare mob while medding. Travel is easy with ports/SoW. Pally can heal well later with clicky and spells plus LOH for emergency and rez at some point. For casual fun, this would seem like the winner. Druid can invis, Pally can ITU, and rogue can CR if needed and lockpick. Seems like this group would allow you to cover the most content.

The problem with dru/pal/rogue is -
No slows, no haste, no crack (until druid is 60 at least..) no melee buffs outside of druid STR.

The regen is nice sure but with two mana classes (dru/pal) you would probably do better with some form of mana regen and/or DPS such as enc/bard (which also provide haste/slow) over an unhasted nearly unbuffed rogue.

So, yes, a druid/paladin/rogue would..work..why are you crippling the group composition?

Do you want ports that badly? You may as well go for shamtank+rogue+druid so you can at least get some slows/haste, or a caster trio of druid/cle/enc or dru/nec/enc or something, if you want the freedom of free ports..Otherwise you could always just pay for a port.

[Spyder73]

I have done a few trios in KC recently with Necromancer/Shaman/Monk and it has been quite exceptional. Lots of synergy in this grouping.

[Troxx]

My ideal trio? Sham monk necromancer.

Monk: pulls, tanking, dps, fd
Shaman: heals, slows, buffs, support, cc
Necro: dps, stupid levels of synergy with shaman, cc, heals, rez, fd, charm (situational)

Amazingly efficient and effective group that keeps getting stronger the higher up you get. With shaman at 60 necro heal stacks with torpor for an incredible 425/tick in heals over time per tick that's cheap and 100% sustainable. Working together each class brings a lot of killing power and group survivability to the table. If you need to add more people, you have a ton of options available with very few stacking issues.

[Issar]

My ideal trio? Sham monk necromancer.

Monk: pulls, tanking, dps, fd
Shaman: heals, slows, buffs, support, cc
Necro: dps, stupid levels of synergy with shaman, cc, heals, rez, fd, charm (situational)

Amazingly efficient and effective group that keeps getting stronger the higher up you get. With shaman at 60 necro heal stacks with torpor for an incredible 425/tick in heals over time per tick that's cheap and 100% sustainable. Working together each class brings a lot of killing power and group survivability to the table. If you need to add more people, you have a ton of options available with very few stacking issues.

This is my favorite trio in a non-enchanter setting. A while back I was in a trio of necro and monk with my bard. That was solid combination as well, but I think a shaman is superior to a bard in this group still.

[aubie]

The problem with dru/pal/rogue is -
No slows, no haste, no crack (until druid is 60 at least..) no melee buffs outside of druid STR.

The regen is nice sure but with two mana classes (dru/pal) you would probably do better with some form of mana regen and/or DPS such as enc/bard (which also provide haste/slow) over an unhasted nearly unbuffed rogue.

So, yes, a druid/paladin/rogue would..work..why are you crippling the group composition?

Do you want ports that badly? You may as well go for shamtank+rogue+druid so you can at least get some slows/haste, or a caster trio of druid/cle/enc or dru/nec/enc or something, if you want the freedom of free ports..Otherwise you could always just pay for a port.

I'd agree on all your points. I guess I was going for the ultimate casual, laid back group, that could consume the most content without relying on external help.

No slow I know, but that's counter productive to the druid damage shield.
No haste I know, but rogue has easy epic, which has a haste click, and other melee haste items are fairly easy to obtain by either camping or EC tunnel for both melees.
No mana regen I know, but druid should be medding most of the fight after ensnare, and pally should be able to sustain flash of light/stun for minimal mana. I'm sure pulling will be slower without mana regen, but again looking at lazy/casual group.

Pulls with pally lull/druid harmony should be singles, and the instant access to SoW and ports/evacs, lockpicks, ITU, and invis allows the group to travel anywhere anytime with no external resources to worry about. Just seemed like a good simple group that can enjoy and access a ton of content without worry of external help.

Obviously, not the most powerful or efficient group.

[Darkatar]

I'd agree on all your points. I guess I was going for the ultimate casual, laid back group, that could consume the most content without relying on external help.

No slow I know, but that's counter productive to the druid damage shield.
No haste I know, but rogue has easy epic, which has a haste click, and other melee haste items are fairly easy to obtain by either camping or EC tunnel for both melees.
No mana regen I know, but druid should be medding most of the fight after ensnare, and pally should be able to sustain flash of light/stun for minimal mana. I'm sure pulling will be slower without mana regen, but again looking at lazy/casual group.

Pulls with pally lull/druid harmony should be singles, and the instant access to SoW and ports/evacs, lockpicks, ITU, and invis allows the group to travel anywhere anytime with no external resources to worry about. Just seemed like a good simple group that can enjoy and access a ton of content without worry of external help.

Obviously, not the most powerful or efficient group.

The slow/damage shield argument is heavily offset by the amount of mana you'd save not having to heal 50%-75% extra damage taken by having no slow. (and the 50-70% extra DPS from the melees from having haste would help massively)

The rogue worn epic is not a click, it's worn. The only haste click a rogue gets (afaik) is a 20% eyepatch, which takes a lodi+stormfeather kill/MQ and probably not something you're going to obtain early or possibly ever without paying for the MQ//actively raiding.

Ensnare and flash of light are super light mana spells, for sure, but if you plan on chain killing you need crack, haste, slow or some combination of the 3, or you will have extended downtimes, guaranteed. In the later game, you may only be able to kill 2-3 mobs before having two uncracked mana classes OOM and needing to med up a full mana bar, meanwhile your rogue is ready to go and nothing to do.

Lull pulls, especially from a paladin, are not reliable. at all. At least not here, and not without a dedicated charisma set. Extra dangerous compared to an enc because you have no mez/memblur/FD.

Harmony is outdoor only, otherwise yes it's freaking great.

Sow can be replaced with Jboots, everyone should get these eventually, and sow potions are relatively cheap as well. IVU and Invis are helpful, but many 50+ mobs are going to see through invis/ivu anyway.

You can get a port almost anytime with a /who all dial or /who all druid/wiz and a couple tells, and a small coin persuasion.

Now I'm not saying any of the involved classes aren't good choices, they're all good choices, they just don't mesh very well as a team.

I understand you want to play more casually, I definitely understand where you're coming from, it is a GAME, not a JOB, but, you can make it much less like a job and more laidback gaming by having a more effective combo, giving you a very large "fuckup buffer" letting you handle sillier situations and being able to take breaks whenever you feel like it because you're clearing mobs like a well oiled machine already. You could be effective enough to hold down your killing area with two people letting a third afk whenever needed, etc.

[Spyder73]

This is my favorite trio in a non-enchanter setting. A while back I was in a trio of necro and monk with my bard. That was solid combination as well, but I think a shaman is superior to a bard in this group still.

Yea I can see Bard being pretty good in this group - I feel like Bard power actually decreases as they level unfortunately. The 'jack of all trades' becomes less of a focal point and the 'master of none' becomes a lot more prevalent. Chances are a casual trio will not be reaching 60 anytime soon (or ever) so I'm not sure it matters...Top end the shaman would be more useful for sure, but pre 55 I think the Bard might have the edge. Relying on someone to constantly twist and play Bard well is cruel and unusual punishment though.

[Tingowingo]

Monk, enchanter, and shaman/cleric

[Reyed]

This will not be popular here but some of the most fun I've had is with a Ranger, Bard, Shaman combo.

[Izmael]

This will not be popular here but some of the most fun I've had is with a Ranger, Bard, Shaman combo.

In any zone where mobs can DT, that would be a very good combo indeed.

[Renault]

In any zone where mobs can DT, that would be a very good combo indeed.

Ranger: Tanks. No issue with aggro gen unlike Warrior. Does more DPS than SK or Paladin. Anything can tank with a Shaman slowing. Pulls outdoor zones. Can help root CC a big pull.

Bard: Constant mana/hp regen for shaman and ranger, zero downtime. Pulls indoors. Resists as needed. Mez for CC or Charms as needed - and not nearly as squishy as an enchanter.

Shaman: Slows and Heals - but given all the mana flow from bard hp/magic regen + canni, will have mana left to maintain doggy, hastes all around, and dots too. Can help root CC.

Sounds like a fun group. Great for a dungeon crawl. It's a cool way of playing a traditional group. Can also fear kite when needed (since Ranger can snare and Bard can perma fear), especially useful on pesky casters.

Could this group be improved by swapping an Enchanter in for the Bard? Sure, if he charms full time and never dies.

Could this group be improved by swapping in an Enchanter for Bard, and a Cleric for Shaman? Maybe, but then Enchanter has to cover slows, haste, and charm dps. Ranger serves no real purpose, duoing with cleric makes more sense.

[Renault]

The golden trio has always been warrior, cleric, enchanter. If you don't suck. Pick whatever if you do.

(1) No snare
(2) No snap aggro
(3) Complete overreliance on enchanter. Has to pull, slow, haste, mez, charm, and CC.

Depends on your aims too. This is a terrible leveling trio. At the very least you need to swap the warrior for something with either pulling ability (Monk) or snap aggro (SK/Paladin).

If your goal is to get to 60 and tank nameds that only a defensive warrior can handle...then that's a different story. But even then, a Torp shaman might be a better choice than a Cleric, for Tash + Malo.

[Hueborn]

Holy Crow! Thanks for all the excellent feedback and suggestions everyone.

I'm pretty sure I'm going; Monk , Warrior , Shaman

I'll play SHM, have my Dad on the WAR , and get my cousin to play a MNK, hopefully.

This is my reasoning, and maybe it's not totally correct. Monk pulling gets progressively more difficult, especially on monsters after level 35. For a new player that wants something easy to start with (duel wield, melee) a monk seems perfect. So I think it's a good fit for my cousin. By the time we reach that level, hopefully there is enough skill to help tag the monks pull, and manage the agro better if we get more. I know the canni-dance, buff timing, regen, haste, slow, root parking, never ending button clicking of the Shaman. My dad can play the Warrior, just make an assist button for Monk, and get in melee range of target.

I feel like using a PAL, SHD, in the WAR spot wouldn't be as good, and I wouldn't want to sacrifice the DPS. The below 40% berserk frenzy on WAR, plus their critical strikes, they do a good bit of damage. Plus they have the added benefit of all that HP/AC. If I put a ROG in the WAR position. Sure, we could drop things faster, but in those "5 MOBs on us" situations (that will happen) it will give me more time to root park, and manage the over-pull. I feel like the ROG(played by my dad) would get killed in those hectic situations.

I'm just wondering if the Monk is always going to grab agro? Will Taunt for the WAR be enough? Will the MNK have to FD all the time, if I want the WAR to Tank? I'm fine with the Monk holding agro, I know they can tank with the SHM slows. I'd just like to utilize that WAR Mass of HP with some ease. Let my Regen do its work, not having the Tank sitting with 100% HP all the time. Also not taking my MNK out of the fight every 3rd attack round because they get agro and need FD.

Sorry for long post. Thanks again for Feedback and any suggestions.

[Darkatar]

Holy Crow! Thanks for all the excellent feedback and suggestions everyone.

I'm pretty sure I'm going; Monk , Warrior , Shaman

I'll play SHM, have my Dad on the WAR , and get my cousin to play a MNK, hopefully.

This is my reasoning, and maybe it's not totally correct. Monk pulling gets progressively more difficult, especially on monsters after level 35. For a new player that wants something easy to start with (duel wield, melee) a monk seems perfect.

My dad can play the Warrior, just make an assist button for Monk, and get in melee range of target.

The below 40% berserk frenzy on WAR, plus their critical strikes, they do a good bit of damage.

I'm just wondering if the Monk is always going to grab agro? Will Taunt for the WAR be enough? Will the MNK have to FD all the time, if I want the WAR to Tank? I'm fine with the Monk holding agro, I know they can tank with the SHM slows. I'd just like to utilize that WAR Mass of HP with some ease. Let my Regen do its work, not having the Tank sitting with 100% HP all the time. Also not taking my MNK out of the fight every 3rd attack round because they get agro and need FD.

Sorry for long post. Thanks again for Feedback and any suggestions.

One of the worst parts about growing up on a monk is having restrictive weight tolerances and the steep learning curve with no healer to back you up.
-Being in a 3man static scenario he's going to have no problem (not dying as often) learning how and how not to pull.
-Having trustworthy groupmates lets the monk leave looting to others, so he doesn't sacrifice his AC and take more damage

A hasted dex'd zerking warrior does decent DPS, and it's pretty safe to do so all the time with slowed mobs as long as they're not casters.

The monk may pull aggro, but really in this trio you can use it to your advantage by letting you spread the damage around and utilize regen/chloro/regrow a bit more. All the monk has to do is FD and drop back to the bottom of the aggro table again, or you can root and the closest person takes the aggro.

With two pure melees (monk/war) you have two classes that can bind wound very well, and up to 70% once you get to 201+ BW, which can really cut down any downtime you might have.

[Vexenu]

If you're going to go Monk, War, Shm why not just go Monk/Monk/Shm? The Warrior really adds nothing to the trio that the Monk couldn't do better. Warrior HP advantage isn't a factor with a Shaman healing. Mend, FD and superior Monk avoidance and DPS will be much more advantageous. FD alone will likely save your dad a lot of frustration.

[Pyrion]

I will go with Yoink and say Mage, Mage, Mage. Especially for newcomers this group is ideal. The class is very easy to learn yet very powerfull. Things that a single mage can not achieve can be simple for 3 mages since when a pet dies... no big deal, still 2 going giving the third enough time to get a new one up. Such a group will plow through most content and the learning curve is pretty flat. You just have to switch tactics in the thirties to chain summoning instead of pet healing, which again is way easier with more than one mage around.

[RDawg816]

Shm/War/Mnk will be a fine trio for your group.

Some things to consider....a rogue would die less in those "5 pull scenarios" because all you have to do is tell your dad to stay hidden until it's under control. Even if you 2 wiped, he would be fine. Also, the best way to root CC those bad pulls is to have the puller run/walk backwards (depending on scenario and location) and let you root them in a spaced out manner. Then you can slow the last one and malo+slow+re-root the adds as you get to them.

As for aggro....usually you'll want to slow early, which will mean the shaman will be tanking for a bit, or you'll have to root everything first. I usually tanked most mobs while levelling, and if we had a particularly hard/resistant mob (like golems in the Hole, for example) I would root them first, then slow+malo and then tell the melee to engage.
Beyond that, it will depend on who has the better weapons, or who lands what procs, to determine who has aggro. Taunt is ok, but it's not an automatic thing.

As for the Shm/Monkx2 suggestion, that would work....however, you'd have to have the shaman loot everything, and then later on if you wanted to take out bigger targets, it's really nice to have a warrior. On top of that, you have no competition for gear with 1 leather, 1 chain, and 1 plate class...whereas on the 2 monk trio you'd have heavy competition with the 2 monks.

[Yttrium]

Also with that Trio you can just play 3 Iksar and start in the same zone. Full group regen is great, and Kunark is a great place to level.

[Doctor Jeff]

I love these posts, I look forward to the follow up when you are "unjustly" banned for boxing.

[Philaw]

SHM/Warrior/Druid

slow and thorns do a lot of work and you have enough healing and regen to live through most ugly pulls.

[Naethyn]

War + Rog + Clr is my favorite trio. Have your dad play the rogue or warrior. Have your best player on the cleric. A good cleric can memblur, single pull, cc, everything you really need.