Rules Clarification Request

[heartbrand]

It's that time of the year again where mass PvP is back and so are mass suspensions, some deserved, some a little confusing. One of the biggest issues we continue to face is the lack of clarity and written rules on a number of subjects, leaving us vets to rely on elf sim legal precedent. However, that doesn't appear to be a very safe way to keep your account getting past the login screen, so I would humbly suggest that we get an updated sticky on a few subjects:

1) dispelling raid mobs. In the past, this has been allowed regardless of circumstances, now it's being called raid disruption. Personally, I think if the character is out of range it should be raid disruption, but whatever the ruling is we should have one clear rule stickied so that everyone is on notice, rather than just suspending people on the spot.

2) training. In Velious zone PvP, mobs are going to get involved 95% of the time. Not everyone has faction in thurg/Kael/skyshrine/ToV, and many of these zones have mobs two inches from the zone in making aggro almost unavoidable, particularly skyshrine. Is having these types of mobs on you during PvP considered training, or is training going to be intentionally grabbing a bunch of mobs and dropping it on a force for the purpose of disruption? My preference would be the latter. No one wants to get suspended over an icewell sentry at the zone in sticking to them like a melee using the new HPT UI.

3) Force LNS. My understanding was always that if you didn't die in the PvP you were fair game, and that only essential classes to the CR from the zone were allowed. Last night it appeared confusing what was accurate. Let's clear this one up once and for all on the sticky as well.

4) ninja looting on OOR characters. Not a huge issue but one I've also seen conflicting rulings on. Personally I think since you can't resolve it via PvP it should be against the rules.



Thanks and let's all help make red99 a better place

[Gustoo]

Good post I agree whole heartedly we need these things set in stone so people can stay on the right side of the law.

[Retticus]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148787

Causing Experience Loss.

Intentionally causing experience-loss to other players in the PvP environment is illegal in all cases and may result in disciplinary action when witnessed by a P99CSR. This includes things such as intentionally training NPCs. We do understand that there are cases where the experience-loss is unintentional, and no disciplinary action will be taken in those cases.

Per the stickied rules it's clear that training is an intentional act to cause experience loss. Getting agro from a faction mob in a velious zone is a regular occurrence. Also if a "receiving" group of people are near a zoneline, they can zone, and unintentional experience loss is easily avoidable; in fact the person that received the agro MUST use the zoneline, so anyone standing near zonelines cannot use the "training" argument if they die to an NPC following another player exiting a zone.

Therefore I interpret agro from velious faction mobs and people near zonelines as exempt from the training argument.

In large scale PvP (7 or more players on both sides), LnS must be called by a force as a whole. Individuals may not invoke Loot and Scoot. LnS may be called by the force at any time, this option may never be forfeited. If a fight took place across multiple zones, the force is considered to have finished LnS'ing once all of their players have left the zones affected. All other LnS rules still apply.


The spirit of the rule is what matters. The spirit of force LNS is to allow a guild to concede the fight, get the dead, and leave the area without being griefed by another guild.

As for dispelling raid mobs. It is not written, but it is common knowledge that on a PvP server, players are equipped with the power to take some actions into their own hands. This means camp dispute and raid dispute. I am talking about IN RANGE players. If an IN RANGE character from an opposing guild wants to come try and take a mob from you, you can kill him. If a guild wants to contest a raid kill and the goal is to attack another guild when they are engaging the raid target they are allowed to dispell debuffs off the raid target with IN RANGE characters. The IN RANGE characters are susceptible to PvP. NO CSR involvement is required when ALL PARTIES are IN RANGE and the INTENTION is to GUILD VS GUILD PVP in contention of a RAID TARGET. The onus to secure the raid target is on the guild attempting to kill the raid target. They must be tactical with their raid location, winning large scale PvP and forcing the other guild to Force LnS from the zone for an hour, or defend while fighting the raid target.

Remember, blue does not have this power, they must rely on CSR involvement and rule lawyering. Red has Player VS Player for MOST camp resolution, within limits.

Thanks

[heartbrand]

It really makes no practical difference for PvP which rule interpretation is chosen. In the past, it was said that every person needs to die, and this was vigorously enforced against Red Dawn. I don't care what is chosen, as long as it is written and stickied so people can know what to do and not do and not eat a random DT/Suspension for an unwritten rule that literally changes based on who is GM that calendar year.

[Doctor Jeff]

It really makes no practical difference for PvP which rule interpretation is chosen. In the past, it was said that every person needs to die, and this was vigorously enforced against Red Dawn. I don't care what is chosen, as long as it is written and stickied so people can know what to do and not do and not eat a random DT/Suspension for an unwritten rule that literally changes based on who is GM that calendar year.

Here you can read the rules in this thread.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148787


cylock yhou should click that link

[heartbrand]

Not sure why you're trying to shit the thread up, the rules are ambiguous.

"A player is 'Looting and Scooting' (LnSing) when he has died to an opponent and opts to call Loot and Scoot."

"If multiple players died in PvP and all choose to LnS, they may help each other do so (IE, res each other, drag corpses, port, etc) unless they have already opted out of LnS by fighting after death. After you have left the zone, you are considered to have finished Loot and Scooting, and may again be attacked. "

[Doctor Jeff]

In large scale PvP (7 or more players on both sides), LnS must be called by a force as a whole. Individuals may not invoke Loot and Scoot. LnS may be called by the force at any time, this option may never be forfeited. If a fight took place across multiple zones, the force is considered to have finished LnS'ing once all of their players have left the zones affected. All other LnS rules still apply.

You're intentionally quoting LNS rulings when we are discussing Force LNS.

[heartbrand]

Correct, and it is ambiguous if that means anyone in the Guild regardless if they died or not, or if it references those players who have died. I would venture a guess that the intention wasn't that players who weren't there and are not part of the CR could head on over to the LNS zone to port out with the rest of their guildies.

[Doctor Jeff]

players who weren't there and are not part of the CR could head on over to the LNS zone to port out with the rest of their guildies.

Not "could"

Must.

They must port out with the rest of their force (not guild)

[Retticus]

...manipulate Cyclock, who has expressed extreme disinterest in learning the rules of the server, do not go unnoticed. (he literally said that he refuses to read the rule threads)

Is this true? Sad if so, but also explains some of the observations from the last week which are prompting this thread...

[debuilder]

he literally said those things in the discord chat

[heartbrand]

Not "could"

Must.

They must port out with the rest of their force (not guild)

The rules don't state that players can head on down to the LNS Zone to port out. I can understand why perhaps you might interpret it that way. Please bear in mind that in the past, the Staff have enforced this rule as meaning that every person needs to die.

[debuilder]

stop deleting my posts its gonna make me sad

retti it's true

[debuilder]

The rules don't state that players can head on down to the LNS Zone to port out. I can understand why perhaps you might interpret it that way. Please bear in mind that in the past, the Staff have enforced this rule as meaning that every person needs to die.

LnS may be called by the force at any time,

[heartbrand]

What does the clause of "LnS may be called by the force at any time" have to do with whether or not people who weren't part of the force can come on down to the party to port out with their guild? Please note the rule was never interpreted that way by staff in the past. If we want to change it or clarify it, that's fine, but let's sticky it that way then.

[debuilder]

What does the clause of "LnS may be called by the force at any time" have to do with whether or not people who weren't part of the force can come on down to the party to port out with their guild? Please note the rule was never interpreted that way by staff in the past. If we want to change it or clarify it, that's fine, but let's sticky it that way then.

If you are fighting 30v30 and one guy from each team dies, either side can call LNS and the fight stops.

What is confusing?

[heartbrand]

If you are fighting 30v30 and one guy from each team dies, either side can call LNS and the fight stops.

What is confusing?

I think you're having a reading comprehension problem. The rule has never been interpreted that way prior. I was part of multiple LnS fights where we were told directly by the staff that every person needs to die at least once before being able to loot and scoot. Also, that rule doesn't directly clarify whether or not someone who is part of the guilds involved, but was not part of the 30v30, can take advantage of the LnS to be able to hook up with their guild for mobilization to port out. The point of LnS is the "S", Scoot. It shouldn't be used as a way to help mobilize people who don't need to scoot.

[Cylock]

Is this true? Sad if so, but also explains some of the observations from the last week which are prompting this thread...

100% untrue, which is why Doctor Jeff is on vacation atm

[debuilder]

It's true, but I know that you regret saying those things and did not mean what you said.

[heartbrand]

My personal opinion is that people are being a bit rough on Cylock. Up until this week he had a chill job on Red, hanging out with Apex and people handing out cookies and probably only needing to deal with small issues like OOC abuse and the occasional berg out. Now suddenly there is mass pvp with all the problems it presents and he is forced to make rulings on the spot. I sympathize with him and feel confident that he cares deeply about making Red99 an attractive place to play. What would help greatly for all parties involved, both staff and players, are clear stickied rules that will help alleviate many of the "off the cuff rulings" that we have dealt with in the past. That way we can help plan our PvP tactics accordingly, without fear of possibly being suspended.

Thanks!

[Andrei Chikatilo]

RULES CLARIFICATION, GOOD ONE


GET A LOAD OF THIS DOCTOR JEFF GOY

[Cylock]

1) dispelling raid mobs. In the past, this has been allowed regardless of circumstances, now it's being called raid disruption. Personally, I think if the character is out of range it should be raid disruption, but whatever the ruling is we should have one clear rule stickied so that everyone is on notice, rather than just suspending people on the spot.


So you understand my rulings, if you come in with a force to kill a NPC or PvP, dispelling IS permitted. But one single toon by themselves chain dispelling a raid target while another guild is killing it, not on my watch! Its a lame move, and your doing nothing but trying to wipe another guild and cause them an XP loss, which is against the rules.

Intentionally causing experience-loss to other players in the PvP environment is illegal in all cases and may result in disciplinary action when witnessed by a P99CSR.


2) training. In Velious zone PvP, mobs are going to get involved 95% of the time. Not everyone has faction in thurg/Kael/skyshrine/ToV, and many of these zones have mobs two inches from the zone in making aggro almost unavoidable, particularly skyshrine. Is having these types of mobs on you during PvP considered training, or is training going to be intentionally grabbing a bunch of mobs and dropping it on a force for the purpose of disruption? My preference would be the latter. No one wants to get suspended over an icewell sentry at the zone in sticking to them like a melee using the new HPT UI.


Intentionally causing experience-loss to other players in the PvP environment is illegal in all cases and may result in disciplinary action when witnessed by a P99CSR. This includes things such as intentionally training NPCs. We do understand that there are cases where the experience-loss is unintentional, and no disciplinary action will be taken in those cases.



3) Force LNS. My understanding was always that if you didn't die in the PvP you were fair game, and that only essential classes to the CR from the zone were allowed. Last night it appeared confusing what was accurate. Let's clear this one up once and for all on the sticky as well.

In large scale PvP (7 or more players on both sides), LnS must be called by a force as a whole. Individuals may not invoke Loot and Scoot. LnS may be called by the force at any time, this option may never be forfeited. If a fight took place across multiple zones, the force is considered to have finished LnS'ing once all of their players have left the zones affected. All other LnS rules still apply.

Last night myself, Braknar, and Sirken was in voice chat having a meeting, and there was some slight confusion for a short time. But was quickly resolved. With that said, if a FORCE LNS is called it covers the entire force who called it. If anyone else remains in the zone alive, they must immediately exit. I do however see no problem with a cleric helping rez the dead to enable them to LNS more quickly, or in *some* cases (if players are KoS/Faction issues) a monk helping to drag a corpse to enable the defeated party to LNS quicker.


4) ninja looting on OOR characters. Not a huge issue but one I've also seen conflicting rulings on. Personally I think since you can't resolve it via PvP it should be against the rules.

I have saw this once, and iirc the person was in range. It was so long ago, so I cant be sure. Anyway, it is against the rules if the person is on a OOR character.

I hope this helps! See you on the battlefield friends!

[Andrei Chikatilo]

I was in voice chat with Grixus, Kammbo, Letsjoe and some others last night having a meeting (edit: about EVERQUEST) and we decided good luck


lol EVERQUEST MEETING, GOOD ONE

[heartbrand]

For intentionally training, with the ToV example where a monk or someone else tries to train mobs out of the way to allow a force to engage another force who is behind mobs, if shit goes south what is the allowed move at that point? Does everyone need to stand still and die? Can you shout "Train" and zone out as quickly as possible? Or is it something where the only option is to clear to the opposing force?

Also thanks for clarification. I would humbly suggest that my suggestion from pre velious launch be considered by the Powers that Be, which is enabling FFA PVP rules in raid zones in Velious much like it exists in Classic & Kunark, to avoid OOR shenanigans.

[Jeni]

I remember Sirken saying training out the lower exit in Sebilis was fair game since it was the only way to escape aggro once down there. If a group decided to set up camp there for fungi then they accepted the risk. I can see this same idea applying to hot and west tov since once you drop down there is only one way out for a lot of classes.

[Cylock]

My personal opinion is that people are being a bit rough on Cylock. Up until this week he had a chill job on Red, hanging out with Apex and people handing out cookies and probably only needing to deal with small issues like OOC abuse and the occasional berg out. Now suddenly there is mass pvp with all the problems it presents and he is forced to make rulings on the spot. I sympathize with him and feel confident that he cares deeply about making Red99 an attractive place to play. What would help greatly for all parties involved, both staff and players, are clear stickied rules that will help alleviate many of the "off the cuff rulings" that we have dealt with in the past. That way we can help plan our PvP tactics accordingly, without fear of possibly being suspended.

Thanks!

You are correct sir, and right now there is a plan in the works for a meeting with all guild leaders on red. To avoid any type of issues in the future.

My personal opinion on the matter. Red has not had much "Consistent GM presence" lately and the players are used to doing whatever they want. Now it does have that, and players are flipping out that rules are enforced.

In closing, my #1 concern is the health of Red99 and my #1 goal is increasing the server population. Just be patient and remember I am here for YOU guys.

[Andrei Chikatilo]

me 2

[shokar]

You are correct sir, and right now there is a plan in the works for a meeting with all guild leaders on red. To avoid any type of issues in the future.

My personal opinion on the matter. Red has not had much "Consistent GM presence" lately and the players are used to doing whatever they want. Now it does have that, and players are flipping out that rules are enforced.

In closing, my #1 concern is the health of Red99 and my #1 goal is increasing the server population. Just be patient and remember I am here for YOU guys.

Enforce the rules, but handing out suspensions if so much as a snow bunny is aggrod during pvp combat is 🤔. Mobs exist in Everquest, and most of them scowl.

[Retticus]

My personal opinion is that people are being a bit rough on Cylock. Up until this week he had a chill job on Red, hanging out with Apex and people handing out cookies and probably only needing to deal with small issues like OOC abuse and the occasional berg out. Now suddenly there is mass pvp with all the problems it presents and he is forced to make rulings on the spot. I sympathize with him and feel confident that he cares deeply about making Red99 an attractive place to play. What would help greatly for all parties involved, both staff and players, are clear stickied rules that will help alleviate many of the "off the cuff rulings" that we have dealt with in the past. That way we can help plan our PvP tactics accordingly, without fear of possibly being suspended.

Thanks!

I think we can all agree on this.

[Retticus]

Enforce the rules, but handing out suspensions if so much as a snow bunny is aggrod during pvp combat is ��. Mobs exist in Everquest, and most of them scowl.

Another agreement.

Cylock, pvping in EverQuest means mobs are likely to be involved. Either the person you are fighting has agro or agro is acquired in the midst of PvP. Velious amplifies this because of the faction systems.

Also in the example of our PvP night in tov, Apex chose to park themselves at the zoneout, they cannot cry train when mobs are agroed enroute. They have a zone out to walk through.

Additionally, to your comments about an in range player casting dispell. If he's in range, is it not expected that other in range players could handle it? I don't see the "grief" here. Out of range is a complete different story, just as you mentioned with the "ninja looting" example.

Thanks and I'm glad you are active and open to conversation.

[awfal]

Another agreement.

Also in the example of our PvP night in tov, Apex chose to park themselves at the zoneout, they cannot cry train when mobs are agroed enroute. They have a zone out to walk through.

Thanks and I'm glad you are active and open to conversation.

in this instance, if your force's goal was leaving said zone they should have used the west exit (faction mobs) and not the east exit (where all mobs scowl).

[Jeni]

Our goal was to engage the players hiding behind mobs hoping to avoid pvp. We had no aggro until fully commiting after the drop down.

[Lasher]

So you understand my rulings, if you come in with a force to kill a NPC or PvP, dispelling IS permitted. But one single toon by themselves chain dispelling a raid target while another guild is killing it, not on my watch! Its a lame move, and your doing nothing but trying to wipe another guild and cause them an XP loss, which is against the rules.


Ok so if its just one person diseplling its not ok. Thanks for clarifying

[hurt]

Denying guerilla warfare is a shame. Training is one thing, but dispelling should be allowed regardless of numbers. When are we getting the FTE ruleset?

[GradnerLives]

OOR dispeller for sure shouldn't be a thing but how is an in range character dispelling any person or mob not solvable with PVP?

What defines a force in this instance? Whether or not you have a force to take on the mob seems inconsequential if your goal is pvp, so I don't really get why that caveat is there.

[Lasher]

In empire we encountered people dispelling our slow. We pvped and just killed the mob still

[Jeni]

Because instead of just solving the situation through pvp means their initial thought was to get cylock to suspend the naked pellers. All that was needed was one bard aoe mesing instead they took their best dps off doze for the whole fight then wiped when the clerics ran out of mana. It's easier to cry and get new rules made then to adapt and overcome.

Hope this trend doesn't continue would love to be able to pvp without fear a bunny will aggro me and I'll eat a suspension.

[Lasher]

Few guys in a plane dispelled 140k people in nagasaki japan and that resulted in us having everquest

[Andrei Chikatilo]

In empire we encountered people dispelling our slow. We pvped and just killed the mob still

This is correct.

This rule is only being created because the current "top guild" is a bunch of spaghetti spined goat blowers that couldn't raid pvp their way out of a wet paper bag.

Few guys in a plane dispelled 140k people in nagasaki japan and that resulted in us having everquest


This is also correct.

[Spit]

Because instead of just solving the situation through pvp means their initial thought was to get cylock to suspend the naked pellers. All that was needed was one bard aoe mesing instead they took their best dps off doze for the whole fight then wiped when the clerics ran out of mana. It's easier to cry and get new rules made then to adapt and overcome.

Hope this trend doesn't continue would love to be able to pvp without fear a bunny will aggro me and I'll eat a suspension.

Wouldn't really consider Krigara and multiple other mobs who hit for 300s Bunnies. This isn't KC anymore.

Cylock, I think a new sticky thread with the current set of rules on Red 99 would be beneficial and is pretty much what the entire server is asking for

[grannock]

I for 1 think its good that we have a gm who is around and can deal with issues. It aint easy being a cop, give him a break till he figures out whats what.

[Andrei Chikatilo]

This isn't KC anymore and you're not in Kunark gear anymore.

Quit being a spaghetti boned fruitcake.

We can give him a break but he's going to dramatically alter the server rules based on whining from a new "top guild". Sebilis is still marked as an FFA zone, worry about/fix that first.

[El Camacho]

Denying guerilla warfare is a shame. Training is one thing, but dispelling should be allowed regardless of numbers. When are we getting the FTE ruleset?

I was thinking of how to bring this up as Cylock may only be seeing the disposable nakeds running in to engage in PvE alone to dispell a mob.

He may not be aware of the sacrifices that some of the smaller groups here are willing to make in effort to see their enemies perish. Running in against unwinnable odds to disrupt the CH chain, dispell the tank/mob and such. True heroes of the people.

I think Cylock is smart enough to see the difference, but it wouldn't hurt to have him share some thoughts.

[heartbrand]

This ruling opens up a lot of potential PetitionQuest. Is harassing a raid with a few people attacking clerics now illegal? What about if 2-3 groups harass a raid on AoW? Those groups are not capable of killing the mob, is that therefore raid disruption and illegal? The goal with rules should typically be to eliminate as much judgment calls and grey areas as possible, but this ruling seems to open up the door for a lot of PetitionQuest of what is considered a force or not a force, i.e., having 30 people camped out while someone pells, or having people in an adjoining zone, etc.

[GradnerLives]

Some rules just don't scale either.

Intentional XP loss at level 45 is very annoying. At level 60 you'd almost prefer to die to mobs than give the satisfaction of YT in most cases. It's a rule that's designed to protect players that are levelling from having their progress negated, not shield max level raid forces from PVP.

Being a part of a smaller group you should be able to prevent a larger force from gearing up. It's one of the only ways you can fight back since you can't necessarily face them head on at full strength.

[Retticus]

If you are standing next to a zoneout and you think a mob is going to agro you and hurt you in away way, I'd reco zoning.

[Pikrib]

Rather discuss the situation in someone's guild recruitment:

Ragnarok attempted to train mobs AWAY to create a clear path for entire guild to run up to Apex guild at HoT zone out. A trainer died and the bulk of the train was let go on top of Ragnarok running through.

This hurt Ragnarok more than it hurt Apex.

Nobody was intentionally training. In fact, we were going out of our ways to prevent training in favor of clean Player versus Player combat.

Team Apex will spin it to invoke CSR involvement and punishment, but it should be very obvious if Cylock was watching us do the trial multi monk coordinated train-aways from entrance, what the intent was.

Also don't forget this is EverQuest. It's an open world game and that means shit happens.

Our goal was to engage the players hiding behind mobs hoping to avoid pvp. We had no aggro until fully commiting after the drop down.

Retti said that the train was accidentally dropped on Apex players coming to PVP and Jeni said that the Apex was hiding behind mobs. If they were hiding behind mobs then how were they coming to PVP. In the future please get your elf stories straight.

When we figure out which one of you has committed elf perjury they will be sentenced to 5 years in Najena getting ass raped by Rathyl.

[GradnerLives]

For example:

Someone roots a kiting bard: no one cares because they put themselves in that situation with the possibility of pvp.

Someone dispells a chanter pet: no one cares because they put themselves in that situation with the possibility of pvp.

Someone dispells a slowed raid mob: suspend them for a week.

Seems backwards given that the first two are almost guaranteed to cause XP loss to a levelling character who has no recourse or defense besides maybe running away. In the last case you're essentially rendering a raid force untouchable unless you have 7+ people when their XP loss is basically meaningless to 99% of their players by comparison to the first two.

[Retticus]

Next person to fear my mage pet when NPCs are around is getting slammed by Cylock.

[Andrei Chikatilo]

Retti said that the train was accidentally dropped on Apex players coming to PVP and Jeni said that the Apex was hiding behind mobs. If they were hiding behind mobs then how were they coming to PVP. In the future please get your elf stories straight.

When we figure out which one of you has committed elf perjury they will be sentenced to 5 years in Najena getting ass raped by Rathyl.

This guy is the funniest person ever man WEW

[Aesop]

For example:

Someone roots a kiting bard: no one cares because they put themselves in that situation with the possibility of pvp.

Someone dispells a chanter pet: no one cares because they put themselves in that situation with the possibility of pvp.

Someone dispells a slowed raid mob: suspend them for a week.

Seems backwards given that the first two are almost guaranteed to cause XP loss to a levelling character who has no recourse or defense besides maybe running away. In the last case you're essentially rendering a raid force untouchable unless you have 7+ people when their XP loss is basically meaningless to 99% of their players by comparison to the first two.

[Pikrib]

This guy is the funniest person ever man WEW

Thanks guy who's forum avatar is a child molester.

[Cylock]

http://i.imgur.com/7ojSMWQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Z0qNsAu.jpg

[vouss]

Ok so if its just one person diseplling its not ok. Thanks for clarifying

Yeah that makes sense, as long as you have force to attack the mob), OR you are there to PvP (this is clear if there are at least 2 people present) you can dispell the mob.

For reference could we get the number of players and class compositions required to kill each mob in velious?

[GradnerLives]

http://i.imgur.com/7ojSMWQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Z0qNsAu.jpg

Yeah, there's been some light trolling/spinning in this thread. There have also been some past and present examples provided of contradictory enforcement.

It can get silly when the word of the law starts dictating the spirit rather than the other way around. I think that's what we're looking at with a lot of these cases.

[Aesop]

Just because you don't understand the nuance and history in a discussion Cylock doesn't mean it's being "spun". You are talking to a group of people, some of whom have had individual play sessions longer than you have been on the server. 140 IQ doesn't make you better than us.

[dink]

nothing like a GM Showing up to mass pvp in a confined space as an ogre on 3 seperate occasions within a 5 minute window.

[Gustoo]

This is an awesome thread it looks like everyone here plays the game.

Good work guys.

[vouss]

if cylock truly wants to help the server, he will educate himself on red99 mechanics and rules

then, he needs to step back and stop using this as a popularity and attention outlet

[necro316]

if cylock truly wants to help the server, he will educate himself on red99 mechanics and rules

then, he needs to step back and stop using this as a popularity and attention outlet

[Tassador]

Lol lawyer quest in process rules changes and crying pending.

[Gardur]

It seems the basis of the problem here is Cylock doesn't have any idea how things have been done in the past and thus is making calls based on the letter of the law without regard to our elf law version of jurisprudence.

That is how Red Dawn was forced to eat YT to force LNS, because the rules simply say "died". Later this was reinterpreted to just mean the force "lost".

With no regard to the past ruling that pelling in range of at least person in the raid force is allowed; he just read the rules and took them literally.

We're adaptive people we can deal with rule changes but we were given NO NOTICE and ate character suspensions based on a rule change we had no idea happened.

Sirken could have cleared everything up by tossing out some warnings and posting a rule clarification instead he just moved the appeals to resolved.

[Tassador]

well it is very concerning that fandango was suspended for training based on the video that symbiotic posted

it is even more concerning that after thoroughly explaining how the video actually proves that fandango was not the person who trained the mobs into the HoT zoneout room, cylock immediately dismisses it saying "this is our ruling."

he either simply does not understand aggro mechanics (very bad for someone with the power to suspend/ban), or he is unwilling to admit that he is wrong (very bad for someone with the power to suspend/ban)

it is compounded by the fact that he does things like going into visible ogre form while partially blocking a narrow zoneline, followed by deathtouching people in the middle of a PvP fight because they're telling him that he is stupid for doing something like that, as it got someone killed when they were trying to zone; his reasoning? "they were messaging me in tells shit talking me"

this demonstrates that his solution to a player lashing out at him is not to simply mute and/or ignore them, but kill them and risk swaying the tide of a PvP engagement; having thin skin while trying to police this community will only end poorly (see: Derubael)

even moreso, he's frequently consulting someone like Braknar for advice on rule interpretation, aka someone who also has no idea how EQ PvP works along with very little history enforcing PvP-specific rules on this server, as evident by informing people that they're allowed to kill members of a guild who are participating in force LNS, even though force LNS has never worked that way, and suspending people for dispelling raid mobs on in-range-to-PvP characters, which has been explicitly stated by Sirken and Llandris to be legal for several years now

cylock seemed to be a very good thing for this server, but if he does not figure out how things have worked and should work around here, he will end up doing more harm than good

Didn't read but would vote to free fandango based on this guy track record on understanding of eq pvp mechanics.

[Ivah]

if cylock truly wants to help the server, he will educate himself on red99 mechanics and rule.

Breaking hide, sneak, and feign is now against the rules. Just gonna throw this out there "This us a red server. Red things happen."

[Samaritan]

if cylock truly wants to help the server, he will educate himself on red99 mechanics and rules

then, he needs to step back and stop using this as a popularity and attention outlet

[Mingo]

if cylock truly wants to help the server, he will educate himself on red99 mechanics and rules

then, he needs to step back and stop using this as a popularity and attention outlet

Vanity has been a defining characteristic and downfall of many of the csr staff in the history of Red99. Hopefully Cylock can avoid this pitfall for the sake of all of your elven fun.

[hatelore]

Sounds like this new guide is half retarded. yikes.

[hatelore]

I knew shit was going downhill the moment I heard about that ruling of breaking fd in pvp or breaking hide/sneak was against the rules. the fuck these guys never played a red server before?

[shokar]

I knew shit was going downhill the moment I heard about that ruling of breaking fd in pvp or breaking hide/sneak was against the rules. the fuck these guys never played a red server before?

is this real

[Retticus]

I sure hope that's not real

[Ivah]

is this real
That was the last ruling I heard from cylock. Maybe someone who was in Hot that day can chime in

[AzzarTheGod]

me 2

[AzzarTheGod]

well it is very concerning that fandango was suspended for training based on the video that symbiotic posted

it is even more concerning that after thoroughly explaining how the video actually proves that fandango was not the person who trained the mobs into the HoT zoneout room, cylock immediately dismisses it saying "this is our ruling."

he either simply does not understand aggro mechanics (very bad for someone with the power to suspend/ban), or he is unwilling to admit that he is wrong (very bad for someone with the power to suspend/ban)

it is compounded by the fact that he does things like going into visible ogre form while partially blocking a narrow zoneline, followed by deathtouching people in the middle of a PvP fight because they're telling him that he is stupid for doing something like that, as it got someone killed when they were trying to zone; his reasoning? "they were messaging me in tells shit talking me"

this demonstrates that his solution to a player lashing out at him is not to simply mute and/or ignore them, but kill them and risk swaying the tide of a PvP engagement; having thin skin while trying to police this community will only end poorly (see: Derubael)

even moreso, he's frequently consulting someone like Braknar for advice on rule interpretation, aka someone who also has no idea how EQ PvP works along with very little history enforcing PvP-specific rules on this server, as evident by informing people that they're allowed to kill members of a guild who are participating in force LNS, even though force LNS has never worked that way, and suspending people for dispelling raid mobs on in-range-to-PvP characters, which has been explicitly stated by Sirken and Llandris to be legal for several years now

cylock seemed to be a very good thing for this server, but if he does not figure out how things have worked and should work around here, he will end up doing more harm than good

I like some of the new rulings for small group/solo stuff because they work in my favor while I am farming.

But Mass PvP ?? I can see some problems here that need to be clarified, especially with regards to past rulings and the rules not being consistent with what the players have been used to since Velious launched. Changing the dispel rule back to the Amelinda hatchet job doesn't seem like the best idea, since you can dispel something to save for your force and kill it MUCH later. THIS IS NOT BLUE, THERE ARE NO ROTATIONS. THERE IS NO FTE. ITS NOT THEIR MOB. IF YOU CAN PREVENT A MOB FROM BEING KILLED THAT IS PVP.

Why should you need the force RIGHT NOW? That is my biggest issue.

If the dispeller is IN RANGE to be able to be stopped from saving the mob from dying, why shouldn't he be allowed to save it?

Even if you wanted Cylock's rule, The SPIRIT OF HIS OWN RULE would make enforcement action on dispel on a PvP server only legit if the offenders guild/force/team never materialized/doesn't exist at all and the guild he represents never kill the mob, and its obvious that it was being done 100% to prevent the guild from killing it for the grief factor.

That doesn't fly either, because in Force VS Force PvP, by denying raid targets this prevents the enemy from acquiring gear and improving their advantage over the other force.

Dispelling is legitimate PvP as long as they are stoppable by PvP for the aforementioned reasons.

You need to have a summit and think this through, and not just wing it.

[Videri]

lot of emotion in this thread

[MerkelMacron]

lot of emotion in this thread

[MerkelMacron]

Why all the lawyerquest? No need to be go all out SullivanCromwell

Cylock is the new sheriff in town, he will set the new precedents

He is not interpreting the rules wrong, he is the only legitimite person to interpret them at all

judgedredd_i-am-the-law.jpg

[hammbone]

So if I'm the only dwarf in icekeep and felt compelled to defend my beloved emperor and protector, Dain Frostreaver, I can't use dispel to save protect my kind? Am I allowed to faction burn?

[Onigumi]

So you understand my rulings, if you come in with a force to kill a NPC or PvP, dispelling IS permitted. But one single toon by themselves chain dispelling a raid target while another guild is killing it, not on my watch! Its a lame move, and your doing nothing but trying to wipe another guild and cause them an XP loss, which is against the rules.

Hows is 3 people pelling a mob and 20 any different in both cases you dispel a mob and it kills people and they lose exp.

Breaking hide, sneak, and feign is now against the rules. Just gonna throw this out there "This us a red server. Red things happen."

This "Intentionally causing experience-loss to other players in the PvP environment is illegal in all cases and may result in disciplinary action when witnessed by a P99CSR" rule sounds like it was made to protect players leveling up or from having their binds trained but instead has been used as a cure all for staff to susp people.

the player base that's getting susp for this huge grey area of a rule is lvl 60 with max exp and rezes available. They lose maybe 1% exp.

As it's been stated 95% of the player base will run in to mobs to die rather then take a YT.

[derpcake]

So you understand my rulings, if you come in with a force to kill a NPC or PvP, dispelling IS permitted. But one single toon by themselves chain dispelling a raid target while another guild is killing it, not on my watch! Its a lame move, and your doing nothing but trying to wipe another guild and cause them an XP loss, which is against the rules.

This has never been a rule in all the time I've played here.

Extending this rule - it means it is no longer OK to dispel mobs in a quad kite either? I don't really want to kill the seafury, I want to make the kiters life hard so he either gates out of the zone (preferably) or I can pvp him after he has wasted resources.

So, no more pelling mobs mid-kite?

Can we also have a sticky with rules that are being made up as we go? Would help a lot, thanks.

You are correct sir, and right now there is a plan in the works for a meeting with all guild leaders on red. To avoid any type of issues in the future.

Its nice that you want to meet people and set clear rules.

Seems reasonable to lay off the suspending until these rules are made though, especially if new topics such as dispelling are involved.

[Ivah]

So if I'm the only dwarf in icekeep and felt compelled to defend my beloved emperor and protector, Dain Frostreaver, I can't use dispel to save protect my kind? Am I allowed to faction burn?

Ya, cause dain is slowable. Idiot

[Ivah]

Hows is 3 people pelling a mob and 20 any different in both cases you dispel a mob and it kills people and they lose exp.



This "Intentionally causing experience-loss to other players in the PvP environment is illegal in all cases and may result in disciplinary action when witnessed by a P99CSR" rule sounds like it was made to protect players leveling up or from having their binds trained but instead has been used as a cure all for staff to susp people.

the player base that's getting susp for this huge grey area of a rule is lvl 60 with max exp and rezes available. They lose maybe 1% exp.

As it's been stated 95% of the player base will run in to mobs to die rather then take a YT.

Going with a strong troll on this. No can be so ignorant that they believe this is about "intentional" exp loss

[Onigumi]

Going with a strong troll on this. No can be so ignorant that they believe this is about "intentional" exp loss

That is the rule the GM's are citing.

From Cylock, your doing nothing but trying to wipe another guild and cause them an XP loss, which is against the rules.

From Sirken, pelling with the intent to manipulate mobs to intentionally cause xp loss to other players is not ok as stated in our rules that are posted publicly for all to see

[Symbioticforks]

.

This "Intentionally causing experience-loss to other players in the PvP environment is illegal in all cases and may result in disciplinary action when witnessed by a P99CSR" rule sounds like it was made to protect players leveling up or from having their binds trained but instead has been used as a cure all for staff to susp people.

the player base that's getting susp for this huge grey area of a rule is lvl 60 with max exp and rezes available. They lose maybe 1% exp.

As it's been stated 95% of the player base will run in to mobs to die rather then take a YT.

You're telling me I can run into mobs, feign death and it grants PVP IMMUNITY? Should someone break my feign it's considered intentionally causing experience loss in any number of locations full of high level hostile NPCs.

Seems dumb.

The person who runs around mobs while there are hostile players nearby is putting themselves in harms way, and should take all the risk associated with doing so. You cannot ask other players to leave you alone as you attempt to close the distance or make an escape through NPCs.

Feigning death on a Necromancer to send pets after people through hostile mobs is a game mechanic. Pet attack and feign death are some pretty core abilities for a Necromancer. If that's not intended, or classic, patch it out.

[Symbioticforks]

That is the rule the GM's are citing.

From Cylock, your doing nothing but trying to wipe another guild and cause them an XP loss, which is against the rules.

From Sirken, pelling with the intent to manipulate mobs to intentionally cause xp loss to other players is not ok as stated in our rules that are posted publicly for all to see

It's too bad there aren't locked PvE encounters in Everquest.

It would just be straight up PvP for all PvE content. Instead of people manipulating NPCs they have no intent to kill through dispelling. i.e. Out of range or trash can naked characters trying to whipe people instead of kill them. Even without the in game systems in place, you could still implement the rule and in the end get MORE PVP out of it. It would make players bring forth legitimate characters to contest content and force PvP. Bash healers, focus the tank, disrupt the raid by all means. Doing anything else is honestly kind of insulting.

[hatelore]

I say get a few groups of sk's/monks together, pvp, when shit goes south just all fd. I mean, its against the rules to break fd.


Sounds legit.

[Ivah]

That is the rule the GM's are citing.

From Cylock, your doing nothing but trying to wipe another guild and cause them an XP loss, which is against the rules.

From Sirken, pelling with the intent to manipulate mobs to intentionally cause xp loss to other players is not ok as stated in our rules that are posted publicly for all to see

What does this have to do with breaking hide, sneak and feign death?

[Onigumi]

It doesn't, you messed up the quote so i have no idea what you are you talking about.

Breaking hide, sneak, and feign is now against the rules. Just gonna throw this out there "This us a red server. Red things happen."

Are you saying this isn't about exp loss?

[Ivah]

It doesn't, you messed up the quote so i have no idea what you are you talking about.



Are you saying this isn't about exp loss?

Guess we need to make all players immune to PvP when engaged on a NPC or it can cause intentional exp loss. Attacking any player engaged on a PvE target should now be a suspend-able offence.

[Onigumi]

Guess we need to make all players immune to PvP when engaged on a NPC or it can cause intentional exp loss. Attacking any player engaged on a PvE target should now be a suspend-able offence.

You just have to wait till the mob is dead but if the player dies from the pressure you put on him by watching then yes you will be susp

[Ivah]

You just have to wait till the mob is dead but if the player dies from the pressure you put on him by watching then yes you will be susp

going with throw away account see ya

[Onigumi]

That was a troll but i think you just misunderstood what i was saying in the first place.

[Ivah]

That was a troll but i think you just misunderstood what i was saying in the first place.

No, I think you misunderstand the server.

[Videri]

You guys have both been so sarcastic, I'm losing track of who's saying what. Are you sure you're not actually in agreement? Consider directness. You miss out on getting snarky witty trilly forum points, but you get your point across better.

[Onigumi]

We are in agreement, that's why i was confused.

[Slathar]

all of red's rules are clearly outlined on page 137 of sirken's game of thrones thread

what's the problem?

[Symbioticforks]

<Empire> had 90 people, they could dedicate half of their raid force to screw around with potential threats to ensure a PVE victory. Let's base all rulings around the standard of 90 man raid guilds.

[Nyrod]

all the retarded trolls and intentional spinning/straw manning arguments and all the whining and complaining that is going on in here (all directed at staff attempting to help), wonder this hasnt been moved to RnF. i havent heard much constructive except a few posts.

EQ pvp has never been black and white. rules are set in place to reign in (and bring swift justice to) the asshats who want to do shit that no one can properly combat.

people bound in or near a slow able raid mob encounter (often where one cannot get to such bind) in range or not who can just die and load in over and over to pell without actually pvping over and over is beyond unacceptable. if you think that is ok, the rules are for you asshole.

but this is why the rules cant be black and white, if a group of 6 or even less wants to come into that same situation even if the apposing team is doing XYZ raid mob with the minimum+ (lets say 25 or 120 idc) they should have the ability to bash clerics and dispel players. and you cant you see the difference?

the issue is OOR dispels and PEOPLE BIND RUSHING dispelling a raid mob over and over or loading in plugged/camped out toons for no reason but to get a sneak dispel off who arent there to pvp/attack anyone.

as to training a zone out, you guys are talking about HoT exit.....are you mentally challenged?? if you want to get out of ToV you dont train the HoT exit. the excuses you guys come up with. regardless of the location, the fact is mobs that were nowhere near the exit were brought in there, not by the guild sitting at the exit, and no you did not all rush to the zone out because you got agro and were trying to avoid your own train. wtf?? as to it being ragnaros, video clearly shows him dieing very very early. as a rogue. with hide sneak. as one of the first to die. in the corner. by himself. not choosing to zone out. turns around to face mobs. ok...

again, if you think that is ok, whether or not it was specifically him who brought the train, rules are for assholes, probably like you. bringing mobs trailing behing you into a pvp encounter is cheap and not impressive.

i see 2 kinds of people looking for answers here, those who want to get away with shit and those who want to know they are acting within the confines of the rules aswell as utilizing the mechancis of EQ pvp. with that i agree there needs to be an addition to the rules as many have stated here to clarify 2 things specifically. dispelling/training, to CONTINUE enforcing the SPIRIT of the rules against asshats who want to do shit that do not promote a healthy community aswell as allowing those who do to know what not to do.

[necro316]

wot a dum post

[Nyrod]

sorry meant fandango, and if that were true, you are just admitting to being a terrible rogue who didnt use hide sneak. also you admit to being one of the closest persons to get initial agro and or social agro on said mobs because, EQ mechanics 101, they go down the list, you were either #1 or had to have someone agro them first and die or FD them off onto you in the span of seconds from when you all started to enter Midiyor room (and please, again, explain to me how one of our monks (the one who FD next to you) had 3 mobs on them including a named that is halfway to the 4 way before any of your guildmates)

i personally have never used/brought a train intentionally and as retarded as it may sound if i had one i couldnt shake i just let myself die rather than drop it on an apposing team. white knight. get on my lvl.

[Nyrod]

lol i keep forgetting colgate is like 18 IRL

1 it wasnt my guild at the time, k thx

2 literally just admitting to training

3 no one else died in the corner, only him, k thx

4 you sir, are what rules are made for, k thx

5 literally admitting to training

cya

[Nyrod]

log show him dieing first, so....ok lol

cya

[necro316]

not sure wot this kid nyrod is talking about

think he is catching some serious delusions

[necro316]

u think its drugs?

[Nyrod]

lol at people who dont play offering opinions

also, i apologize, you are correct. i have reviewed the video and it is clear that grannock brought the train, fandango, as stupid as he was to die 2nd was not the first to die.

also, LMFAO at seeing that it wasnt Krigara it was Ymmeln who is literally one of the farthest nameds from the HoT exit

[Nyrod]

so much withdrawals when im the most geared warrior in Apex and have more Vulak/Doze loot than anyone except like Drybone and Symbiotic maybe, also i quit from the end of Jan till 2 weeks ago, pretty sure i dont give a fuck.

no one is getting anything done till either side quits logging in and pretty sure we arent quitting and our guild leader isnt going to gear out all his friends/alts then disband the guild.

cya

[Nyrod]

oh my bad, Ymmeln is hiding in a corner near the exit and you have to try to get agro on her, but sure, its near the exit. guess grannock and fandango got lost and both got agro on her first.

[Nyrod]

CYA

[Nyrod]

"guys, we wanted to PVP you in the HoT exit. we couldnt just bring rogues/monks, we wanted to bring our whole force. how were we supposed to prevent all the mobs between us getting to you too? its not our fault you were in a safe location and we brought mobs with us. pwomise"

CYA

[necro316]

cwall is this guy retarded?

[TheBiznessTZ]

cwall is this guy retarded?

Did drakar make a new forum account?

[necro316]

Did drakar make a new forum account?

you know that's not a bad theory ya got there gasoline,

will investigate further

[Nyrod]

thank you staff for attempting to moderate this horrible cesspool (the best server ever in the history of emulated pvp servers, thank you) of a community.

try not to get discouraged at having so many people focus all of their pint up rage and lack of emotional intelligence directed at you, the majority of people appreciate your help and presence on here.

just remember, this is literally the 309th stupid guild vs guild squabble and forum lawyer questing and will not matter in the grand scheme of things. also, this is harmless compared to blue.

CYA

[Nyrod]

HAHAHAHAHA ^^^

im. so. sorry.

[necro316]

looks like confirmation to me boys, we got a retard on our hands

[Nyrod]

just because colgate lacks emotional intelligence does not qualify him as retarded. many people never mature emotionally, you wouldnt understand.

[necro316]

yikes

[necro316]

I can't even

I'm going 2 bed u finish wit this bozo, ty cwall

[AzzarTheGod]

I like some of the new rulings for small group/solo stuff because they work in my favor while I am farming.

But Mass PvP ?? I can see some problems here that need to be clarified, especially with regards to past rulings and the rules not being consistent with what the players have been used to since Velious launched. Changing the dispel rule back to the Amelinda hatchet job doesn't seem like the best idea, since you can dispel something to save for your force and kill it MUCH later. THIS IS NOT BLUE, THERE ARE NO ROTATIONS. THERE IS NO FTE. ITS NOT THEIR MOB. IF YOU CAN PREVENT A MOB FROM BEING KILLED THAT IS PVP.

Why should you need the force RIGHT NOW? That is my biggest issue.

If the dispeller is IN RANGE to be able to be stopped from saving the mob from dying, why shouldn't he be allowed to save it?

Even if you wanted Cylock's rule, The SPIRIT OF HIS OWN RULE would make enforcement action on dispel on a PvP server only legit if the offenders guild/force/team never materialized/doesn't exist at all and the guild he represents never kill the mob, and its obvious that it was being done 100% to prevent the guild from killing it for the grief factor.

That doesn't fly either, because in Force VS Force PvP, by denying raid targets this prevents the enemy from acquiring gear and improving their advantage over the other force.

Dispelling is legitimate PvP as long as they are stoppable by PvP for the aforementioned reasons.

You need to have a summit and think this through, and not just wing it.

Hey Cylock you just got dunked on.

You can dispel a mob to save it for a later raid force that week, it doesn't need to be an immediate engage. There is no FTE, you are really making up some big policy changes that don't seem to fit a PvP server.

Try making some rules that actually fit a PvP server. Also a dispeler who represents a raid force is technically denying PvP equipment and PvP advantages by stopping a raid target from dying with dispel. He is benefiting his entire raid force.

Got anything to say for yourself? Didn't think so. Now go take the Scarface Challenge.













just kidding luv u kid

[Symbioticforks]

Fight for the content you want.

Using one guy to dispel an NPC implies you refuse to fight.

That's about as Blue as it gets.

Using an NPC to whipe an entire raid force to generate free YT's on naked players at various binds, especially with leaderboards currently keeping some players immersed..

Is completely counter to a healthy PvP server.

Causing an intentional EXP is one thing, causing an intentional EXP death on 40 people with one character is another. You're just trollin at that point.

[heartbrand]

Empire never tried Tunare, not because we couldn't kill her (easier than AoW), but because it wasnt worth the time.

[Pikrib]

I almost forgot how Empire FQ worked.











1 Empire member posts something and 5 more Empire members show up to start sucking his dick.

[Slathar]

Fight for the content you want.

Using one guy to dispel an NPC implies you refuse to fight.

That's about as Blue as it gets.

Using an NPC to whipe an entire raid force to generate free YT's on naked players at various binds, especially with leaderboards currently keeping some players immersed..

Is completely counter to a healthy PvP server.

Causing an intentional EXP is one thing, causing an intentional EXP death on 40 people with one character is another. You're just trollin at that point.

Yeah, one brave, in-range player attempting to dispel a raid target with 60 enemies in the zone is as blue as it gets. Please tell me how this issue cannot be solved with PvP?

Also, up until very recently every single GM, including Sirken, has ruled that dispelling of mobs is a viable PvP strategy as long as most players are in range of the character doing the dispelling.

You're the bluebie in this scenario.

[vouss]

CYa

[Retticus]

Yeah, one brave, in-range player attempting to dispel a raid target with 60 enemies in the zone is as blue as it gets. Please tell me how this issue cannot be solved with PvP?

Also, up until very recently every single GM, including Sirken, has ruled that dispelling of mobs is a viable PvP strategy as long as most players are in range of the character doing the dispelling.

You're the bluebie in this scenario.

http://i.imgur.com/5EYWoaK.gif

[magician]

Being unable to convince your zerg of warm bodies to spend the time getting to her means your guild failed to kill her.

Being unable to get the minimum amount of geared players required to beat Tunare without the warm bodies mean youreally guild failed to kill her.

Can spin it any way you want, fact remains Empire was unable kill Tunare. Which is sad considering all those years of uncontested raiding and the constant claim of "winning the box".

pRECIATE THE COMMeNT

[Andrei Chikatilo]

Remember the time Empire stopped being a dragon slaying guild because a couple people came to try to pvp them

[Domski]

Remember the time Empire stopped being a dragon slaying guild because a couple people came to try to pvp them

Who r u

[Nyrod]

please change the rules so that the minority of people on this box who are literally the bottom of the bottom of the cess pool autistic delusional mentally disturbed barrel can run off the human beings who play here and have no other decent classic EQ pvp server to play on. i wont be doing it but guaranteed no one will get anything done. oh wait, you are going to prevent it like Empire did when they had 90 people?? LOL

CYA

[heartbrand]

You should seek mental help. Ragnarok is on top and the rule changes would stand to benefit you. Second, empire dealt with people attacking us mid raid and still killed the dragons.

Cya

[Symbioticforks]

Yeah, one brave, in-range player attempting to dispel a raid target with 60 enemies in the zone is as blue as it gets. Please tell me how this issue cannot be solved with PvP?

Also, up until very recently every single GM, including Sirken, has ruled that dispelling of mobs is a viable PvP strategy as long as most players are in range of the character doing the dispelling.

You're the bluebie in this scenario.

Oh man you really flipped the tables on me on this time! That part where you called me a bluebie, that was topkek. If only you had some pixels gains to mitigate how salty you are, clearly upset.

1) Often times that player is not in range (it's adorable you assume that he is)
2) Often times they're in a location not accessible through normal means of movement.
One could even say they're exploiting terrain to actively avoid PvP.

The majority of a raid cannot simply get to the guys up above bound inside walls. Good examples of these areas are the cubby and above the click out in Halls of Testing. Another example would be next to the gem up above inside Temple of Veeshan.

Dispelling an NPC is a PVE action. There's no fighting, no yellow texts, no PVP. As I stated before, not zoning in with geared players to contest is about as Blue as it gets.

[necro316]

is there a negative connotation with something being "Blue" ?

[Izmael]

In Russian, being blue means being gay.

(true story)

[Andrei Chikatilo]

Killing people that try to dispel is a pvp action, something Empire did very well

[Nyrod]

Yeah, one brave, in-range player attempting to dispel a raid target with 60 enemies in the zone is as blue as it gets. Please tell me how this issue cannot be solved with PvP?

Also, up until very recently every single GM, including Sirken, has ruled that dispelling of mobs is a viable PvP strategy as long as most players are in range of the character doing the dispelling.

You're the bluebie in this scenario.

"hey guys, lets pvp. you and your 40 guys vs me naked bind rushing to aid my big fucking dragon who will do all the work lololol play better"

CYA

[AzzarTheGod]

how is it possible for those players to be "exploiting zone mechanics" when you have the exact same tools available to you that allows you to reach those spots?

Braknar?

[Andrei Chikatilo]

Hey let's pull mobs to the same easy to get to spots every time

[Slathar]

1) Often times that player is not in range (it's adorable you assume that he is)


I said in range player. You seem like you have PTSD over someone breaking the rules in a video game. I would suggest yoga or a juice cleanse.


2) Often times they're in a location not accessible through normal means of movement.
One could even say they're exploiting terrain to actively avoid PvP.


How is this an issue? Your guild could figure it out and chase the player(s) out, pull the mob elsewhere, or I guess cry publicly about being out smarted in a video game.



Dispelling an NPC is a PVE action. There's no fighting, no yellow texts.


This has been a strategy for years. Dispelling a mob leads to fighting, yellow texts, and turns the tide. It is your guild's choice to engage a mob with the possibility of having the mob dispelled.

In conclusion, play better.

P.S. WTB Lizard Blood Potion.

[Videri]

lotta emotion in that post


...is how you sound sometimes! :grumpyface:


But for real, great post. I hope this conversation results in improvemers to the ruleset and guild pvp situation.

[Aesop]

exp loss is a weird metric in this context.

[Deillon]

exp loss is a weird metric in this context.


This guys on to something.

[Smedy]

lawyer quest in full swing, cylock burn out in 3...2...1

#red99problems

[Beastagoog]

Yah cylock trying 2 bring order to the choas but dont think he knows what he bite off the chery pie.

He trying tho and that's the better than Rog and Co's disdain for red.

He's damned if does and damned if he doesnt with any decision he makes with how 50/50 balanced the teams/guilds are atm.

Good luck to him its gunna age him 10 years dealing with it all.

[Bones]

He's damned if does and damned if he doesnt with any decision he makes with how 50/50 balanced the teams/guilds are atm.

Good luck to him its gunna age him 10 years dealing with it all.

da truf

[AzzarTheGod]

Every GM comes to red looking to be buddy buddy and make a big impact on things. They inevitably shit things up for a while and then disappear.

A good GM would be hands-off except for the most egregious and clear-cut of offenses. So often they seem to be of the opinion that a head's gotta roll for every messy situation that they jump to stupid conclusions and bring down the hammer on someone innocent, something akin to an amateur police department in the deep south. I personally think every single ban for training and the likes should be open to public peer review.

Dumb rules on red attempt to deny the very essence of what Everquest is - a dangerous and volatile world. Everyone knows what they are getting themselves into and if they don't - fuck em.

Wipe the rules slate clean and start over with some common sense and a hands-off approach. Let EQ be the beautiful sandbox it should be.

Damn Jeremy on the ace! Good thing this got moved to RNF.

[Nyrod]

i dont even play here

lawyer quest in full swing, cylock burn out in 3...2...1

#red99problems

hope so, someone who has never played everquest PvP and has no idea how EQ mechanics work should not be a GM/guide on this server

hope so

hope so

hope so


hope so

[AzzarTheGod]

hope so, someone who has never played everquest PvP and has no idea how EQ mechanics work should not be a GM/guide on this server

Unless Sirken comes forward and says "We are making sweeping changes to the PvP ruleset, we are going to try the blue thing and protect raid forces from contest".

I'm inclined to agree

[hatelore]

Every GM comes to red looking to be buddy buddy and make a big impact on things. They inevitably shit things up for a while and then disappear.

A good GM would be hands-off except for the most egregious and clear-cut of offenses. So often they seem to be of the opinion that a head's gotta roll for every messy situation that they jump to stupid conclusions and bring down the hammer on someone innocent, something akin to an amateur police department in the deep south. I personally think every single ban for training and the likes should be open to public peer review.

Dumb rules on red attempt to deny the very essence of what Everquest is - a dangerous and volatile world. Everyone knows what they are getting themselves into and if they don't - fuck em.

Wipe the rules slate clean and start over with some common sense and a hands-off approach. Let EQ be the beautiful sandbox it should be.

[Beastagoog]

Every GM comes to red looking to be buddy buddy and make a big impact on things. They inevitably shit things up for a while and then disappear.

A good GM would be hands-off except for the most egregious and clear-cut of offenses. So often they seem to be of the opinion that a head's gotta roll for every messy situation that they jump to stupid conclusions and bring down the hammer on someone innocent, something akin to an amateur police department in the deep south. I personally think every single ban for training and the likes should be open to public peer review.

Dumb rules on red attempt to deny the very essence of what Everquest is - a dangerous and volatile world. Everyone knows what they are getting themselves into and if they don't - fuck em.

Wipe the rules slate clean and start over with some common sense and a hands-off approach. Let EQ be the beautiful sandbox it should be.

even tho quido is a whiny little pussy foot with manboobs, what he said here is perfect and a good summary of it.

[necro316]

who the fuck cares if you lose exp, these rules are so fucking stupid. It takes like a week to go 1-50.

the whole thing about breaking fd or invis being against the rules is gotta be one of the dumbest ideas ever conceived on red99

[hatelore]

I have to agree. The server has been out for how many years now? Anyone that is anyone has at least two or three level 60 chars. Exp at this point is trivial. I can't even imagine how many different ways this new retarded rule could be exploited.

What if you catch someone camping a spawn alone and he is fd? Does this mean he can't be attacked because he is fd? What id you zone into kc and someone doesn't care to pvp you? Can they just fd, or go invis/hide? Should just make the server blue at this point. Shits retarded.

[Retticus]

It's not grief fuxkboy. Is dispelling an enchanter pet grief? Is fearing a shaman or mage pet grief? It's called EverQuest PvP.

If you're guild strat is to sit at a zone out guarded by mobs for the sole purpose of slowing people down trying to get to you, you cant cry to the GM's when mobs show up at the zone out following players trying to PvP you. There's a zone out 2 steps away from you, go I to it and you will avoid any potential exp loss.

Happy to help.

[heartbrand]

I leveled to 60 before the exp bonus and when pvp exp loss was in place. The amount of exp deaths I took due to "griefing" was literally zero.

[Andrei Chikatilo]

High risk high reward zone

Control your pets or have a bash patrol ready

You have enough SKs shitting it up. Sounds like the problem is they are slow on the draw. You can also debuff stack it while a ranger weaponshields (or similar) to bury it to buy time for the drool cups.

Empire didn't get this rule change, Apex shouldn't either.

[Retticus]

Yea, let's list a bunch of scenarios where no one said it was griefing. Bravo.

Must be hard to breathe with that head so far up your ass.

It was done on purpose because it is equivalent to dispelling a rooted or slowed mob someone's fighting during open world PvP.

[Andrei Chikatilo]

All these SKs shitting it up and they can't get one to bash a pumice

[Retticus]

It was done on purpose because it is equivalent to dispelling a rooted or slowed mob someone's fighting during open world PvP.

Or dispelling sow off a kiter, or rooting/snaring the kiter, or dispelling the snare/root/fear off the kiter npc in order to try and kill the persons

[LostCause]

legit at 50 when xp loss was in pvp.. i lost about quarter of a blue litterally nothing.. you had to be very very bad or afk for it to even matter.


it would some bind rushing people doing dumb shit because you dont loose nothing when you die aleast you don't have full hp and mana when you die like in the past.

[LostCause]

yes i know half that didn't make sense because i suck at typing but you know what i meant

[Tassador]

Basically what you meant was any body who complained about xp loss in pvp a whimpy bitch that's wants to play a game with no consequences.

[hammbone]

fear pvp pets to cause trains ftw.

[Videri]

Guys, think about it from the GM's perspective. If you're disrespectful to him, he won't want to help you. There is always a way to express your concerns in a respectful way. The reason some people think I'm some kind of saint is that I never stop looking for this way. I literally hope this helps.

[Qtip]

Yea awesome. you leveled to 60 when the server wasn't full of people bored after raiding for years that decided to simply cause as much chaos as possible. Not like they care if their 12th account gets suspended.

Leveling on this server now isn't even bad. The occasional twink rogue/SK or apex, empire, rustle, TD, etc trains wiping out groups so they can take the camp is tolerable to a degree (log off and log back in later when they get bored of that).

It's the top end that's just not really that much fun. 52+ is a nightmare of people griefing as much as possible left and right. And that isn't even taking into account the raid scene, which adds more to the cesspool.

In its current state, this server will never recover. Even a wipe would be just a bandaid that would only last for 1-2 years before the problems that lowered it's population to its current state would occur again.

What would you say griefing is defined is?

[Beastagoog]

What would you say griefing is defined is?

living pay cheque to pay cheque

[LostCause]

Guys, think about it from the GM's perspective. If you're disrespectful to him, he won't want to help you. There is always a way to express your concerns in a respectful way. The reason some people think I'm some kind of saint is that I never stop looking for this way. I literally hope this helps.

most people compare live to p99 and forget the face that on live they GOT PAID

[Pseudechis]

Guys, think about it from the GM's perspective. If you're disrespectful to him, he won't want to help you. There is always a way to express your concerns in a respectful way. The reason some people think I'm some kind of saint is that I never stop looking for this way. I literally hope this helps.

You do not belong here.

[Nyrod]

lol fandango forum account #917 banned

[Nyrod]

Tala is a saint

[Nyrod]

It's not grief fuxkboy. Is dispelling an enchanter pet grief? Is fearing a shaman or mage pet grief? It's called EverQuest PvP.

If you're guild strat is to sit at a zone out guarded by mobs for the sole purpose of slowing people down trying to get to you, you cant cry to the GM's when mobs show up at the zone out following players trying to PvP you. There's a zone out 2 steps away from you, go I to it and you will avoid any potential exp loss.

Happy to help.

this is so full of retarded, i cant even

THIS PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT JUST IN
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you camp at HoT exit, be warned, a player wanting to PVP you who must run all the way from the "4 way" into your camp may bring all the mobs in an unfortunate train on the way - IT IS YOUR FAULT FOR BEING THERE.

HAVE A NICE DAY

[Retticus]

please stop spamming, thats 3 in a row

[Aesop]

legit at 50 when xp loss was in pvp.. i lost about quarter of a blue litterally nothing.. you had to be very very bad or afk for it to even matter.


it would some bind rushing people doing dumb shit because you dont loose nothing when you die aleast you don't have full hp and mana when you die like in the past.

iirc AFK one night on Cyren, I lost at least a couple levels. Sharknado was supposed to be powerleveling me on his mage used to be. I always forget his mages name.

[Videri]

You do not belong here.

I was sent here by Bristlebane as penance.

most people compare live to p99 and forget the face that on live they GOT PAID

Not sure I follow. The fact that they are volunteers is even more of a reason they don't have to do jack for you, therefore even more of a reason to be nice.

[TheBiznessTZ]

I was sent here by Bristlebane as penance.



Not sure I follow. The fact that they are volunteers is even more of a reason they don't have to do jack for you, therefore even more of a reason to be nice.

Tala just stop. No one cares. Not even the GM you're standing up for.

[Smedy]

did we get a public statement / announcement from cylock or is he already MIA?

#rip

[Videri]

Tala just stop. No one cares. Not even the GM you're standing up for.

I'm not standing up for the GM. I'm trying to help you guys get a better server and not get banned for pvping. "You can lead a horse to water..."

[Videri]

Who am I really standing up for, Gaso?

[AzzarTheGod]

iirc AFK one night on Cyren, I lost at least a couple levels. Sharknado was supposed to be powerleveling me on his mage used to be. I always forget his mages name.

Cool story thx 4 comment

[AzzarTheGod]

living pay cheque to pay cheque

lmao *daps fist*

[Runya]

Great fun last night bros

[MerkelMacron]

Guys, think about it from the GM's perspective. If you're disrespectful to him, he won't want to help you. There is always a way to express your concerns in a respectful way. The reason some people think I'm some kind of saint is that I never stop looking for this way. I literally hope this helps.

[Andrei Chikatilo]

Hey watch us stall raid mobs at 4am you useless piece of shit that doesn't do anything!!!

lol

[Cylock]

bump, Ragnarok killed The Statue of Rallos Zek with members of Apex chain dispelling the slow

there were 0 deaths as a result of this, other than the Apex members attempting this, and the mob died shortly thereafter

reminder that there are ways to deal with this tactic if you're not actually retarded

That is incorrect, so I will chalk it up to not being there?

With that said Rag had to zone 1 time on Statue due to a few players wanting a GM paid vacation for breaking server rules. So we abliged

[Andrei Chikatilo]

watch out for the hot spattering butter

[hatelore]

Lol

[AzzarTheGod]

That is incorrect, so I will chalk it up to not being there?

With that said Rag had to zone 1 time on Statue due to a few players wanting a GM paid vacation for breaking server rules. So we abliged

I'll pras consistency

[Nyrod]

I'll pras consistency

lol

[Pseudechis]

Primate chalked up swathe of kills on 55 alts during statue kill. Why we're those alts running under statues belly. I don't know but I did what was needed and gave them dirt naps.

[Stasis01]

That is incorrect, so I will chalk it up to not being there?

With that said Rag had to zone 1 time on Statue due to a few players wanting a GM paid vacation for breaking server rules. So we abliged

"When is Sirken going to show up"

What'd I tell ya Cylock he's in the pocket, you've been around long enough now to know Sirken never logs on Red, it's almost like someone texted him.

[Stasis01]

I had Empire crying and wiping on VS for 7 hours before they mic dropped, same thing - Sirken shows up and bans.

The corruptions goes deep and high on this box.

[Pseudechis]

^ double post. See how loot council gave all the pixels to aimchat? Oh wait no they rewarded hard working croots.......can't imagine why they were able to build a 60 stron force in a week.....

[Stasis01]

Your posts seem detached from intelligence.

[Tomm Selleck]

http://i.imgur.com/WbVvuPY.jpg

[Retticus]

*uses level 20 to dispell mobs and train, gets in trouble, cries favoritism*

[Zalaerian]

Within a week, aimchat rule is established back in norrath after a much needed vacation to Azeroth

[Stasis01]

Will there be another quitting post.

[Aesop]

Will there be another quitting post.

ur the one best qualifies to answer this right now.

[AzzarTheGod]

"When is Sirken going to show up"

What'd I tell ya Cylock he's in the pocket, you've been around long enough now to know Sirken never logs on Red, it's almost like someone texted him.

wow strong bannable posts

[GradnerLives]

ur the one best qualifies to answer this right now.

https://i.imgur.com/8VPzfB4.jpg

[Utanven]

Within a week, aimchat rule is established back in norrath after a much needed vacation to Azeroth

? Lol?

Cya