Necromancers "are terrible in groups"

[Troxx]

I had an interesting discussion with a very opinionated individual today who was quite adamant just how awful necromancers are in a group. Other's spell damage was turned off - not capturing really any of the functional input from the druids. Not the ideal group, but we were pulling non-stop and holding down hands/warlord and anything else we could find that was actually up with ease. I was the primary healer freeing up the druids to do whatever else with the occasional spot heal. Total necromancer healing: 18,250 (> 90% of all non-regeneration based healing required). Extra mana tossed around as needed and roots and ghetto mez helped the bard keep our asses safe.

Combined: *Stuff* 3/22/2017 in 1536sec

Total
--- DMG: 185295 (100%) @ 121 dps (121 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 43748 @29dps

Lasarer (Daegun)
--- DMG: 63436 (34.24%) @ 41 dps (41 sdps)
------ Total: 0
--- DMG to PC: 2293 @2dps

Rogue_01
--- DMG: 60162 (32.47%) @ 39 dps (39 sdps)
------ Total: 60162 -- Pierce: 29676 -- Backstab: 16027 -- Slash: 14459
--- DMG to PC: 2028 @2dps

Daegun
--- DMG: 28431 (15.34%) @ 19 dps (19 sdps)
------ Total: 28431 -- DoT: 21642 -- Hit: 6730 -- Crush: 59
------ Total: 63436 -- Pierce: 49391 -- Backstab: 14045
--- DMG to PC: 1118 @1dps

Warrior_01
--- DMG: 22730 (12.27%) @ 26 dps (15 sdps)
------ Total: 22730 -- Slash: 15774 -- Crush: 6576 -- Kick: 351 -- Hit: 29
--- DMG to PC: 17368 @20dps

Paladin_01 (later replaced by warrior)
--- DMG: 9258 (5%) @ 14 dps (6 sdps)
------ Total: 9258 -- Slash: 9062 -- Bash: 196
--- DMG to PC: 15416 @24dps

Bard_01 (out pulling and handling haste/cc/regen)
--- DMG: 1270 (0.69%) @ 3 dps (1 sdps)
------ Total: 1270 -- Slash: 889 -- Crush: 381
--- DMG to PC: 3431 @2dps

Druid_01
--- DMG: 8 (0%) @ 0 dps (0 sdps)
------ Total: 8 -- Crush: 8
--- DMG to PC: 1154 @5dps

Druid_02
--- DMG to PC: 940 @1dps


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Melee had bard haste for a fair portion of fights but assuming they didn't ever have it (benefit of the doubt) - adjusting each from worn haste alone to having 70% enchanter haste on top of their worn hastes:

Rog 41% to haste cap: 40.75 melee + 17.738 backstab = 58.48 dps
Warrior 21% to 91%: 41 dps
Paladin 21% to 91%: 22.1 dps

Rogue was, of course, having to throttle back on dps while warrior was tanking.

Necromancer + pet with mobs dying too fast to really capitalize on dots still churned out 60dps while primary healing and providing CC.

-------------------------------------------------------

The day before my charmed/hasted/quadding "Decaying prisoner" bounced around between 75-110dps with an average right around 85, just over double the summoned pet.

[bum3]

I was told this exact same thing last night by a long time p99 veteran. I mained necro on live, release to PoP, and knew better. Parses don't take in any account of helping ench mez, mana feed, or helping off-heal. Thanks for providing data. I wasn't aware you could use parsers on p99. Which one do you use?

[Troxx]

Gamparse is the one I use. It's far from perfect but it gets the job done.

[Teppler]

It's kind of a newbie statement to make.

If you know what the necro class is capable you know they are not only a good group class but one of the best.

[Troxx]

It's kind of a newbie statement to make.

If you know what the necro class is capable you know they are not only a good group class but one of the best.

Considering the person making the statement was a guild-tagged alt of one of the big 2 on the server and sporting velious raid gear on a low 50s melee - and claimed to have 5-6 level 60s all decked out ...

You'd be surprised just how commonly held this belief is.

[feanan]

It's because the number of lazy and/or shitty necros is way greater than people like yourself.

Same as the bard just playing regen and meleeing :)

It isn't' until you see a well played necro/bard by someone who isn't lazy that you realize how incredible they are.

[Teppler]

More efficient nuker than druid, mage and wizard with the help of lich
Snare
Heals
Mez
Root
Charmed pets that outdps twinked rogues

From a group perspective what else am I missing?

[Sage Truthbearer]

It's because the number of lazy and/or shitty necros is way greater than people like yourself.

Same as the bard just playing regen and meleeing :)

It isn't' until you see a well played necro/bard by someone who isn't lazy that you realize how incredible they are.

This is true but I think it's also because people think "Wow, Necromancers are so good at soloing" therefore "they must be terrible in groups."

[Feanol]

They can mezz, they can off-tank with pets, they can heal, they can heal themselves, they can root, they can charm, they can supply manna, they can split pull undead, they can ressurect, they can...

Necromancers are somehow simultaneously the best groupmate and the best solo'er far as I can tell.

Disclaimer: I have never played a Necro and have zero personal bias.

[Jimjam]

I can only assume these people are saying "necromancers are terrible in groups" as a comment on player skill, rather than the function of a necromancer in group.

Many times, adding a necromancer is just like adding a low grade magician.

A competent group necromancer, such as draegun, is a good group asset.

Teppler you are missing corpse recovery/group resets. FD + Rez can get the xp train back on the tracks effectively!

[Sancta]

Honestly he probably meant "compared to the other classes for a group that wants to maximize exp".

Unless the necro is charming, it is bottom tier for a group that wants to maximize exp per hour. But in that same vein so is bard/rng/war/pal/sk/dru/wiz/clr. Are those classes useless? Not at all, you can still make a decent exp group with bottom tier exp per hour classes and the exp would be fine. (As fine as a group with 5+ can be, which is low exp per hour group since 5+ is awful exp and is for funsies anyway)

To put it another way, if you were duoing say monk/sham, what third class would you want to max exp? There would be a tier list that would go something like:

1) Chanter [has to charm] / Necro [has to charm]
2) Rogue
3) doesn't matter b/c it will only suck up the exp and we'll be making less per hour

Same with Enc/Clr, which 3rd would you want to max exp? Prolly only another chanter/necro charming for dps, anything else will lower your rate. You can extrapolate this idea to 3mans+.

If you're not trying to maximize exp per hour, go nuts, invite 6 people of any class, and socialize your little heart out.

[Teppler]

^wrong

Necro doesn't even need charm to be amazingly effective. It just puts them over the top even more.

They have too many tools in their disposal not to be incredibly effective in almost any group make up.

Like your example of rogue and sham duo and comparing necro to chanter. Necro doesn't need to charm. It can throw out snare and fear and let the rogue and sham go to work and let the rogue backstab. That's actually a really really strong trio that can handle multiple mobs at once. If the necro is using fear then the sham won't really need to heal or use a big mana slow so it can also focus on maximizing dps. In general this is something people miss about necro a. They do so much that they tend to also free up other classes to dps more too.

In fact if you have a chanter summoning and tanking in this equation, the rouge won't even be utilizing backstab.

[zanderklocke]

Every class is awesome in the hands of a good player.

[Troxx]

Especially after the monk pulling nerf I can think of several classes (cc/lull/support) that would dramatically increase the efficiency, safety, and xp gains of the Classic monk/shaman duo. Bonus points go to the classes that fill this role and provide meaningful dps to boot.

This, of course, assumes you're not hunting in stupidly boring or trivial locations.

[Vexenu]

The problem is that maximizing the potential of a Necro requires a combination of player skill, concentration and APM (actions per minute aka mouse clicking and button pressing) eclipsed only by Bards. Keeping your heals up on the tank alone and dispelling the recourse requires more APM that half the classes in the game, to say nothing of simultaneously managing a charm pet, CCing, pumping mana, throwing in nukes or DoTs when appropriate and always managing your own health/mana ratio. Most players simply cannot or will not (laziness) sustain that high level of play for long stretches of time. Much easier to fear kite or charm solo, or if grouping to just mail it in with lazy heals and a summoned pet.

So most people simply haven't ever grouped with a really good Necro and don't know what they're capable of in the hands of a good player. Thus the stereotype of Necros being exclusively a solo class persists.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I was in a silly group at disco once, and we had 3 -- yes, THREE -- necros.

It was not the best group, but there was nothing wrong with it and we managed to keep d1 and the golem room cleared.

I think challenging your expectations is a great way to keep eq fun. Three necros was extreme, but the necros all cooperated well (always key when doing unusual groups imo) and it was certainly a change of pace!

In fact, it was kind of funny how stuff *slowly* died. No fast kills, but once we got our pace down, it was rock steady.

I am not sure there is any group that is simply impossible in eq, within a handful of hard limits.

[Lowako]

anyone who thinks necromancers are bad in groups is probably horrible at everquest and literally worse than an empty slot. even if a necromancer did nothing but maintain a fully geared charmed pet in an undead zone they would be worth 2 good rogues or 4 shitty rogues worth of DPS. I'm pretty sure proper charmed pets vs undead are capable of pushing 200dps. that doesn't even factor in the healing, twitching, crowd control etc. If you find a non-garbage necromancer who can maintain a charmed pet while doing other things you should literally be begging them to join your group.

[Teppler]

The problem is that maximizing the potential of a Necro requires a combination of player skill, concentration and APM (actions per minute aka mouse clicking and button pressing) eclipsed only by Bards. Keeping your heals up on the tank alone and dispelling the recourse requires more APM that half the classes in the game, to say nothing of simultaneously managing a charm pet, CCing, pumping mana, throwing in nukes or DoTs when appropriate and always managing your own health/mana ratio. Most players simply cannot or will not (laziness) sustain that high level of play for long stretches of time. Much easier to fear kite or charm solo, or if grouping to just mail it in with lazy heals and a summoned pet.

So most people simply haven't ever grouped with a really good Necro and don't know what they're capable of in the hands of a good player. Thus the stereotype of Necros being exclusively a solo class persists.


Reverse charming as a necro will be the fastest class to reach 60 unless you use bard kiting or aoe chardok if that's still a thing.

Whenever I'd group as a higher level necro it would be for fun or loot. Exp is too good solo for grouping for exp to be a serious viable option.

But yeah a great group necro is the same activity as a great bard or shaman. Constant button pressing and managing things.

[Sancta]

^wrong

Necro doesn't even need charm to be amazingly effective. It just puts them over the top even more.

They have too many tools in their disposal not to be incredibly effective in almost any group make up.

Like your example of rogue and sham duo and comparing necro to chanter. Necro doesn't need to charm. It can throw out snare and fear and let the rogue and sham go to work and let the rogue backstab. That's actually a really really strong trio that can handle multiple mobs at once. If the necro is using fear then the sham won't really need to heal or use a big mana slow so it can also focus on maximizing dps. In general this is something people miss about necro a. They do so much that they tend to also free up other classes to dps more too.

In fact if you have a chanter summoning and tanking in this equation, the rouge won't even be utilizing backstab.

Pretty sure you missed the entire point but that's aight.

If the goal is max exp per hour, as in getting the most exp you possibly can then refer to previous post, certain classes/comps are at the bottom of the totem pole in that regard.

If the goal of the group is to have fun+exp you can literally play any class you want, it will all be effective, and you can think of cool ways to kill mobs, and the exp will be fine.

[Swish]

It's because the number of lazy and/or shitty necros is way greater than people like yourself.

Same as the bard just playing regen and meleeing :)

It isn't' until you see a well played necro/bard by someone who isn't lazy that you realize how incredible they are.

Nailed it ^^

[Nilstoniakrath]

Necromancers rule, those who say otherwise are just jealous, and or morons. This is true solo or grouped

[Teppler]

Pretty sure you missed the entire point but that's aight.

If the goal is max exp per hour, as in getting the most exp you possibly can then refer to previous post, certain classes/comps are at the bottom of the totem pole in that regard.

If the goal of the group is to have fun+exp you can literally play any class you want, it will all be effective, and you can think of cool ways to kill mobs, and the exp will be fine.

No, I understand the rate of experience argument and it's not true against necros.

Necro's keep groups moving fast. Not just in a 'oh I'm having fun as a necro class way'. As in high end min/maxing. You are not understanding the tools of the class.

[Swish]

The problem has always been the type of necro who thinks just sending the pet in is "enough" per mob, because "dots arent mana efficient, things die too quick".

[Pyrion]

@swish: In almost all group situations, DoTs *are* a waste of mana. But even necros can perfectly use their mana in a better way, even if they just nuke.

[Tarskin]

I feel Necromancers and Bards are in the same boat, a lazy necro/bard is rather crappy in a group while an active/skilled Necromancer or Bard can do almost anything (and will switch 'main' role depending on the situation).

[Swish]

@swish: In almost all group situations, DoTs *are* a waste of mana. But even necros can perfectly use their mana in a better way, even if they just nuke.

Obviously every camp/zone/group is different but generally speaking necros should be HoT'ing the tank/puller to take the strain off the healer, taking on the role of mana battery while in skellie form...and the nukes should be lifetaps to replace lost health, which are better anyway because they're less resisty.

Sitting there in your robe, sending the pet in 5-10 seconds after the pull comes in, then looking back at Netflix...is the reason necros don't get groups.

[fastboy21]

My experience is that the reason some necros are bad in groups is because lots of players who play necros just don't like to group. they tend to be spoiled by being so efficient at solo'ing and they can spend lots of time grouping figuring out how much more exp they could be making if they just quit the group and go solo.

I've met a handful of necros lately that seem to prefer the group game while leveling which is cool, because the necro class is actually a pretty awesome group class. not sure if/why its a new trend on p99 to be a group necro atm.

my first toon on p99 that I lvled up was a necro. i liked grouping, but mostly when I was feeling bored of solo'ing. its just too easy to be a good solo necro: make easy exp, do named camps, make pp, and largely even do less work...very hard to break the desire to want to play solo.

[Dreenk317]

I feel Necromancers and Bards are in the same boat, a lazy necro/bard is rather crappy in a group while an active/skilled Necromancer or Bard can do almost anything (and will switch 'main' role depending on the situation).

I completely agree. I have a necro friend and a bard friend that I will always invite to smallman because they both play their classes so well. have trioed some shit that just wouldn't be efficient without the bard or necro. I love both these classes and think both are exceptional, solo or grouped.

[bum3]

not sure if/why its a new trend on p99 to be a group necro atm.

Wonder if it is the same coolaid that makes this influx of warriors who only want to low hp dmg deal. Was shocked to see that it was even a thing.

[Troxx]

Wonder if it is the same coolaid that makes this influx of warriors who only want to low hp dmg deal. Was shocked to see that it was even a thing.

I have solo'd my necro most of the way up. Grouping is terrible xp (and money) comparatively but soloing gets boring and lonely on mmorpgs. I frankly get tired of casting the same spells over and over. I can only stand solo play so long before I take a break to play around in a group.

Having leveled two characters to 60 capped only to collect dust or farm high value camps - I'm in no rush to just "be 60".

[Jimjam]

Yea, if you enjoy actually playing the game, especially the potentially dynamic game play of xp grouping, slower xp is arguably a good thing, since you get to do more xp grouping before you shelf that toon!

Maybe I am being a little hyperbolic or absurd.

[Troxx]

Obviously every camp/zone/group is different but generally speaking necros should be HoT'ing the tank/puller to take the strain off the healer, taking on the role of mana battery while in skellie form...and the nukes should be lifetaps to replace lost health, which are better anyway because they're less resisty.

Sitting there in your robe, sending the pet in 5-10 seconds after the pull comes in, then looking back at Netflix...is the reason necros don't get groups.

Precisely. In a fast paced group - dotting is terribly inefficient. Our one stronger/fast poison dot also has huge aggro - so casting early is hardly worth it. Mana/time is best spent throwing around heals, tapping back health lost (call me lazy but I actually just tap heal over time to cover my losses as constantly dispelling the recourse only to miss it and strip something useful is just tedious), nuking, interrupting, rooting, mezzing and throwing extra mana to any who need it.

Having said that, I've been playing the group game most recently for a solid 2 levels and over time the damn summoned pet by itself still puts out more damage than most level-appropriate melee. To put it into perspective my epic 57 monk tends to average around 55dps sustained over long stretches with epic/SoS (60-70 with great enchanter haste and shaman buffs). Necro pet with self haste alone and a smart tank presenting the mobs arse to my pet hovers at 45-50 - add another 5-10 dps with a strength buff and mage mask.

Point is - for every group I've been in (excluding a charmed enchanter pet - I can do that just as easily) from barely 53 to halfway through 55, that damn pet of mine deals either 1st or a close 2nd by itself in total damage dealt over time and average dps.

Magician and Necro pets from the mid 40s to mid 50s hold their own in the damage output category. They're basically another member of the group and anything else the owner does is icing on the cake. For mages that's a great DS and wizard_lite nuking. For necros ... that's a whole lot of potential extra with, at worst, simply nuking at a 2 to 2.3 rate of damage return on mana spent (14 dps with lich assuming you're literally always in battle).

[Spyder73]

Can confirm that necromancer is the Master Class.

Only people who don't love necromancers are the same people who think only a group of rogues are acceptable DPS.

[gizmo]

Wonder if it is the same coolaid that makes this influx of warriors who only want to low hp dmg deal. Was shocked to see that it was even a thing. Love /duel our warrior. It's some tasty kool aid. Also necros can be great duo partners for hybrids imo.

[articnv]

They can mezz, they can off-tank with pets, they can heal, they can heal themselves, they can root, they can charm, they can supply manna, they can split pull undead, they can ressurect, they can...

Necromancers are somehow simultaneously the best groupmate and the best solo'er far as I can tell.

Disclaimer: I have never played a Necro and have zero personal bias.

we can also split pull with mez root then fd - cears the agro from root and mez :)

[Teako]

I would rather have consistent safe DPS in every single party in every single zone at any level bracket than a pseudo enchanter with less CC options for when a pet breaks and hulks you. Or a lazy pet attack shadowbond bot on mobs who don't live longer than 15 seconds.

You've made the argument for how LEET STATUSZ your Necro was every single day in KC ooc chat for almost 3 weeks straight now. I was one of the people routinely declining your Necro because you're entitled and lazy. You've been constantly crapping on people to take your poorly geared Necro alt over a monk in groups that don't need or want necros. I watched you leave an entire infernus party over them not desiring to pick up another monk and you swap to Necro at hands. Then you proceeded to flame and cuss them out in OOC. Classy.

Nobody owes your Necro anything. Any group at any time for any reason can say no and that's the end of it. Your abuse and harassment of groups in KC is ridiculous. The way you attempt to join parties on one character and convince them your alt Necro is just SO FRIGGIN GOOD is also ridiculous.

Necro is not a class that benefits well in a fast paced environment like KC. You're not Mana efficient on the mobs, you can't CC over half of them except root, your health transfer is mediocre, and taking on a hasted charmed pet is a huge liability in a 5man unless people babysit you. So you either have 3 people babysitting one bootleg Necro, or a summoned pet and mediocre DPS. Either way I'd rather take an actual DPS and save the trouble.

That, and you are remarkably abusive and entitled about what you feel your Necro is "owed" by groups and the server. Spoiler: it's nothing.

[welly321]

I've done numerous charm groups in both KC and HS with necros. I play an enchanter. I welcome any necro into these groups as our pets destroy everything and their patch heals really help the cleric save mana. Like any class, their are good necros and bad necros but from my experience they are far from "Terrible in groups".

[Teako]

Some excerpts:

[Fri Mar 24 15:13:16 2017] Scarlete tells the group, 'NO NECRO :)' (two days later referencing your LFG spam)
[Wed Mar 22 11:52:43 2017] Daegun says out of character, '55 necro lfg -- backstab pet + heals + twitches + cc + + charm + whatever' (you)
[Wed Mar 22 11:26:26 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'there is no way a necro pet does the same dps as you' - talking to our epic 55 rogue
[Wed Mar 22 11:25:29 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'he just told me, hes necro pet does 5dps less than you cactus' (you abusing random people in tells over not inviting your necro)
[Wed Mar 22 11:23:42 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'heh hes talking to me, trying to convince me how good necro are in groups'
[Wed Mar 22 11:19:30 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'not sure what he wanted to do wtih his necro, we needed a puller
[Wed Mar 22 11:18:51 2017] You tell your party, 'guy was clearly going to bail the second we made it clear we didn't want his necro he wanted to swap to. nbd, lots of pullers'
[Wed Mar 22 11:18:31 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'and his necros play no valid role in this group'
[Wed Mar 22 11:13:11 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'necro would be my last choice for dps in a group, not being an ass or anything'

There's a lot more, but you get the point. They very politely declined your necro, and you continued trying to ram it down their throat as if it was the best thing since the sun. You joined them with the intention of trying to make them carry your necro when another puller became available and they declined outright so you left.. then proceeded to cuss people out in /ooc over being "necro hating noobs"

Don't come to the forums like you're some glimmering white knight of necro-group-salvation.. you're an entitled child who cusses people out that don't want to group with him.

[Nixtar]

I would rather have consistent safe DPS in every single party in every single zone at any level bracket than a pseudo enchanter with less CC options for when a pet breaks and hulks you. Or a lazy pet attack shadowbond bot on mobs who don't live longer than 15 seconds.

Necro is not a class that benefits well in a fast paced environment like KC. You're not Mana efficient on the mobs, you can't CC over half of them except root, your health transfer is mediocre, and taking on a hasted charmed pet is a huge liability in a 5man unless people babysit you. So you either have 3 people babysitting one bootleg Necro, or a summoned pet and mediocre DPS. Either way I'd rather take an actual DPS and save the trouble.


Putting that unpleasant sounding experience aside.

A necromancer adds a lot more than just DPS to a group. You mention fast pace, well, a necromancer can turn a druid into a proper healer, make a shaman afford slows and heal, constantly keep HoTs up and STILL have mana for CC.

Speaking from a Paladin perspective, it was pretty awesome how I always seemed to have mana over for stuns. As a result I owned aggro. Took a lot less damage, and could even afford some backup heals when things got messy. I believe the healer started nuking at some point.

When it comes to "lazy" necromancers, I've found simply asking for X or Y works wonders. For instance, "Twitch when I announce X amount of mana" or "could you keep your HoT running on the shaman"<-- Which is more or less a twitch for shamans(and we all know shamans just LOVE to canni dance!). Most of the time, the so-called laziness is more out of ignorance than malice or stupidity. Which probably stems from being used to going solo.

Likewise, if you are a necro with a rogue pet, all you need to to is /tell tank "I got a rogue pet, could you try and keep the mobs facing way from X." It isn't a big ask and he's probably been asked that by 239843242 rogues before in order to make getting into BS position more fluid.

[Skinned]

As a shaman I can be the only priest in the group, slows and heals, with necro support, keep people alive quite easily, and the necro is still contributing to DPS substantially.

Playing a nec effectively in a group requires really knowing the class and what it is capable of. The effects aren't obvious really to someone who doesn't know what to look for...the class is more subtle...damage ticks away and doesn't drop drastically like a wizard DPS....there is less downtown because the necro is feeding the shaman mana, who is being fed HPs with regeneration buffs....every now and then when adds get intense a mez comes off...does back up healing to casters who are missing 20% of their hit points so you don't have to while you're babysitting the melees. Then if you wipe they can even survive, drag out your corpses, and rez you if they are so inclined. They have an impressive tool set but it isn't obvious to people who don't know what to look for in a good necromancer in a group.

[Tenet]

@swish: In almost all group situations, DoTs *are* a waste of mana. But even necros can perfectly use their mana in a better way, even if they just nuke.

I would say that necromancer have a selection of so many DOTs at their disposal, that you can choose the one what would sync with the group's kill speed. Especially on higher levels when monsters don't die from one or two swings of a twinked melee, you can adjust your DOTs in a way, that they tick their full length.

On low levels? Use utility DOTs, snare for example, or life leech. Manage the pull, realize that you ARE a CC class. Maybe DOT something what is the next on the kill list, and just standing there rooted for the moment, be creative.

I am just putting this out here for the newbie necros, as I also thought that it is the best to switch to nuking in a group for a long time in my career, thus converting your character to a lousy magician.

But you can do so much better. Using all these strategies mentioned already in the thread, you do not ever have to restrain yourself to nuking, you can be more useful in a group.

When you find that you constantly have to switch spells for your next minute of action, that is where you start playing your necromancer to its full potential. That is my experience at least and I am sure I am not even the best necro of p99 by far.

Scaleway - Auld Lang Syne

[Tenet]

As a shaman I can be the only priest in the group, slows and heals, with necro support, keep people alive quite easily, and the necro is still contributing to DPS substantially...

As a friendly shaman once told me in CoM: shaman and necro are BFF!

Scaleway - Auld Lang Syne

[fastboy21]

As a friendly shaman once told me in CoM: shaman and necro are BFF!

Scaleway - Auld Lang Syne

with shaman slowing and regening, necro heals become easily enough to keep a group alive in most exp camps...necro heals don't really eat into their dps either.

its a solid combo...but both classes can usually be more efficient just solo'ing on their own. in level'ing my shaman i think i've only had 1 or 2 grps where there was a necro actually in grp playing that role.

[Teppler]

I would rather have consistent safe DPS in every single party in every single zone at any level bracket than a pseudo enchanter with less CC options for when a pet breaks and hulks you. Or a lazy pet attack shadowbond bot on mobs who don't live longer than 15 seconds.

You've made the argument for how LEET STATUSZ your Necro was every single day in KC ooc chat for almost 3 weeks straight now. I was one of the people routinely declining your Necro because you're entitled and lazy. You've been constantly crapping on people to take your poorly geared Necro alt over a monk in groups that don't need or want necros. I watched you leave an entire infernus party over them not desiring to pick up another monk and you swap to Necro at hands. Then you proceeded to flame and cuss them out in OOC. Classy.

Nobody owes your Necro anything. Any group at any time for any reason can say no and that's the end of it. Your abuse and harassment of groups in KC is ridiculous. The way you attempt to join parties on one character and convince them your alt Necro is just SO FRIGGIN GOOD is also ridiculous.

Necro is not a class that benefits well in a fast paced environment like KC. You're not Mana efficient on the mobs, you can't CC over half of them except root, your health transfer is mediocre, and taking on a hasted charmed pet is a huge liability in a 5man unless people babysit you. So you either have 3 people babysitting one bootleg Necro, or a summoned pet and mediocre DPS. Either way I'd rather take an actual DPS and save the trouble.

That, and you are remarkably abusive and entitled about what you feel your Necro is "owed" by groups and the server. Spoiler: it's nothing.

I don't know what your beef is with whoever you are referring to and I was willing to tolerate this post as just a difference of opinion but then you mentioned necro aren't that great in KC in particular because it's fast paced. That's where this post lost any credibility even as just a different point of view.

Rule of thumb- if there's undeads around, necro will rock that zone.

[fastboy21]

I don't know what your beef is with whoever you are referring to and I was willing to tolerate this post as just a difference of opinion but then you mentioned necro aren't that great in KC in particular because it's fast paced. That's where this post lost any credibility even as just a different point of view.

Rule of thumb- if there's undeads around, necro will rock that zone.

It really depends on the necro tbh...KC is fun zone because it lets lots of classes shine IF they play right. There is super wide gap between a bad/lazy necro in kc and a good one actually trying to play right.

[Teppler]

A person playing a class poorly is not an indictment on the class it's an indictment on the player.

[fastboy21]

A person playing a class poorly is not an indictment on the class it's an indictment on the player.

yes, i wasn't insulting the class. the gap for certain classes is significant. the size of the gap is a function of the class abilities/mechanics. for necros, as a class, the gap is very big.

[Teako]

A person playing a class poorly is not an indictment on the class it's an indictment on the player.

See: Having to babysit the necromancer. See: Pseudo-enchanter with less CC and lower utility.

[Jimjam]

A person playing a class poorly is not an indictment on the class it's an indictment on the player.

I somewhat agree with this point of view, I've seen mages not send their pets in until the mob is at 23%, but it is true to say some classes are much easier to play 'poorly' than others.

[Teppler]

See: Having to babysit the necromancer. See: Pseudo-enchanter with less CC and lower utility.


Sorry but you simply don't know the class well and you're spreading ignorance.

Especially if that's what you've bogged necro down to in KC of all places.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

Wonder if it is the same coolaid that makes this influx of warriors who only want to low hp dmg deal. Was shocked to see that it was even a thing.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nixtar]

See: Having to babysit the necromancer. See: Pseudo-enchanter with less CC and lower utility.

Aw shit, here I thought you were a reasonable player who were just stuck in a drama between another player. I won't even call you a minmaxer since you seem to be unable to grasp basic synergies beyond a rogue adds DPS.

I hope you at least know that a slow(cast by a shaman/enchanter) enables tanks survive longer because of less heals. This is because the mob attacks slower. Not because the tank is babysat by said class. It is an improvement to the group to not waste excess mana on heals.

Hope this info was helpful in your future adventuring. <3

[Aviann]

Sounds like the same type of person who avoids grouping with paladins. Is a sick sad world we live in.

[Neric]

Going back to the initial question: It doesn't matter!

Necros are indeed not impressive damage dealers in groups, because they are lacking burst damage, but you can still have a good group with them. The skill factor in EQ will balance everything out in the end. It's not really the classes that matter so much in EQ, it's the people.

http://web.archive.org/web/20161204074418/http://home.arcor.de/neric/Data/Kickass_group.jpg

[Teppler]

Going back to the initial question: It doesn't matter!

Necros are indeed not impressive damage dealers in groups, because they are lacking burst damage, but you can still have a good group with them. The skill factor in EQ will balance everything out in the end. It's not really the classes that matter so much in EQ, it's the people.

http://web.archive.org/web/20161204074418/http://home.arcor.de/neric/Data/Kickass_group.jpg

Stop it with the misinformation!

Actually when it comes to burst damage necro s are better than mages, wizzies, druids, shammies and whoever else.

Because necro regains mana much faster and a rarely gets resists on their life taps. If there's undead to dd, all the better.

But even besides burst damage, necro a summoned pets do near as much or more than most melee.

So any idea of necros not having the ability to add damage is just flat out wrong.

[Teppler]

Necros also have tools such as FD and root to deal with unwanted aggro which makes them even better burst dealers.

Think of Mages who don't even get root let alone fd. Wizzies who don't get lich for super mana regen or fd to deal with mobs who kill you in a few seconds. It's a raw deal for these classes. Their few percentage points of efficiency on their actual nukes count for very little.

[Troxx]

Some excerpts:

[Fri Mar 24 15:13:16 2017] Scarlete tells the group, 'NO NECRO :)' (two days later referencing your LFG spam)
[Wed Mar 22 11:52:43 2017] Daegun says out of character, '55 necro lfg -- backstab pet + heals + twitches + cc + + charm + whatever' (you)
[Wed Mar 22 11:26:26 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'there is no way a necro pet does the same dps as you' - talking to our epic 55 rogue
[Wed Mar 22 11:25:29 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'he just told me, hes necro pet does 5dps less than you cactus' (you abusing random people in tells over not inviting your necro)
[Wed Mar 22 11:23:42 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'heh hes talking to me, trying to convince me how good necro are in groups'
[Wed Mar 22 11:19:30 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'not sure what he wanted to do wtih his necro, we needed a puller
[Wed Mar 22 11:18:51 2017] You tell your party, 'guy was clearly going to bail the second we made it clear we didn't want his necro he wanted to swap to. nbd, lots of pullers'
[Wed Mar 22 11:18:31 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'and his necros play no valid role in this group'
[Wed Mar 22 11:13:11 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'necro would be my last choice for dps in a group, not being an ass or anything'

There's a lot more, but you get the point. They very politely declined your necro, and you continued trying to ram it down their throat as if it was the best thing since the sun. You joined them with the intention of trying to make them carry your necro when another puller became available and they declined outright so you left.. then proceeded to cuss people out in /ooc over being "necro hating noobs"

Don't come to the forums like you're some glimmering white knight of necro-group-salvation.. you're an entitled child who cusses people out that don't want to group with him.


Well hello Promises.


[Wed Mar 22 16:14:15 2017] Zadane tells the group, 'decayed prisoner Mez'd'
[Wed Mar 22 16:14:20 2017] You tell your party, 'summoned - not even charm'
[Wed Mar 22 16:14:23 2017] Promises tells the group, 'let me be.. 100&PCT; frank then'
[Wed Mar 22 16:14:27 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'ill duel your necro pet'
[Wed Mar 22 16:14:29 2017] Promises tells the group, 'necros are a shit group class'
[Wed Mar 22 16:14:36 2017] Promises tells the group, 'and I would invite a 47 paladin over a 55 necro in kc'
[Wed Mar 22 16:14:46 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'necro needs to be in HS, solo'
[Wed Mar 22 16:14:59 2017] Promises tells the group, 'precisely. any necro lfg over 40 means they can't solo efficiently, or are too lazy to do so'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:16 2017] You tell your party, 'later guys'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:17 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'necro haters_101 lol'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:25 2017] Promises tells the group, 'sorry your main sucks bro'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:29 2017] Promises tells the group, 'learn to take off adamantite club in groups'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:31 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'bah'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:31 2017] You tell your party, 'my main is a 60 bard'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:37 2017] You tell your party, 'my other main is a torpor shaman'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:42 2017] Jocky tells the group, 'dont leave over it lol'
[Wed Mar 22 16:15:42 2017] Promises tells the group, 'not impressing anyone'
[Wed Mar 22 16:16:09 2017] Promises tells the group, '60 bard, necro, shaman, 2x monk, 2x rogue, druid, cleric, ench.. many of which are guised/firepots bound/etc.'
[Wed Mar 22 16:16:19 2017] Promises tells the group, 'don't gotta try to e-peen swing your 'leet parzez''
[Wed Mar 22 16:16:21 2017] You tell your party, 'and yet your 52 warrior twink won't put on aggro weapons'
[Wed Mar 22 16:16:30 2017] You tell your party, 'its fine man, be safe'
[Wed Mar 22 16:16:33 2017] Promises tells the group, 'why would I? holding agro off everyone except the moron who refuses to take off his stun proc'

Tells:

[Wed Mar 22 16:16:14 2017] Jocky tells you, 'dont think you should leave over it'
[Wed Mar 22 16:16:49 2017] You told Jocky, 'sorry - promises is a douche'
[Wed Mar 22 16:17:02 2017] Jocky tells you, 'i understand, not sure where all that come from !'
[Wed Mar 22 16:17:12 2017] Cactus tells you, 'so... Sorry about that. Didn't realize he was such a dick.'
[Wed Mar 22 16:17:13 2017] Promises tells you, 'also - 64.3 dps average over 1hr 27mins. You sat around 36.1 dps average over the same time frame. Why would I half my dps when our monk is bad and does low dps?'
[Wed Mar 22 16:17:43 2017] Promises tells you, 'only threat issue was the retard monk who doesn't know to take his adamantite club off lol'
[Wed Mar 22 16:17:43 2017] Cactus tells you, 'at any rate, thanks for the group, sorry it turned out like that. I appreciate you logging your monk :('

There was one and only one reason I left that group: you, Promises. Not 5 minutes earlier you were complaining about the mage, mage pet, and the group's dps. I offered to play a class that would have contributed more dps, been able to help the low level enchanter manage the crowd control he was having a hard time with, and would have made sure Jocky wasn't perpetually low on mana from healing the rogue you refused to equip aggro weapons for and helping the low level enchanter manage crowd control with roots - all while doing more damage.

I wish i'd turned my logs on earlier but I didn't until I wanted to see just how awesome your dps weapons were helping you perform depsite Cactus asking you several times to put your dps weapon away. We also had an enchanter who was functionally too low of a level to mez anything efficiently or quickly. This conversation happened while we were sitting on our asses at hands with you at 60% health, me at 40% health - and not much cleric mana to heal with.

Combined: Skeletal watcher on 3/18/2017 in 1058sec
Monk: 50dps
Rogue: 55dps
Warrior: 42dps
Mage pet: 23dps

I logged off of my necromancer and switched characters because you needed a puller. As we struggled later, they (not you) very politely refused my offer to play necro. That was fine, but your little tirade in group chat in light of your exceptional performance wasn't really something I was ok with - which is why I left ;) .

By the way, I did appreciate how not 10 minutes later you were dead in the Overthere, the group wiped, and then never recovered with you sitting on your ass at the zone line until you logged off.

~Drama

[Jimjam]

A lot of Karnors OOC superstars showing up in this thread.

[Danth]

As a dedicated tank-class player, Monks who won't take off aggro-proc weapons annoy the tar out of me.

Got nothing against Necromancers. I'll invite 'em to groups if there's space and I don't need something specific. Granted that goes for pretty well any class. Had a Velketor's group the other day that was composed of myself (Shadow Knight), Paladin, Wizard, and Shaman....it was fine. You want to min/max experience rates, go solo or duo someplace. Groups are for taking it easy and having a nice time.

Danth

[Swish]

A lot of Karnors OOC superstars showing up in this thread.

hehe

[articnv]

As a necro yes hs solo /dou is the bet xp but sometimes u just wnat relax and group. Espaicial if u been charmign for 35 + levels out of 55 :). Being gorupe dis alot less boring then solo :)

[Izmael]

Ban everyone in thread
Move to resolved

[welly321]

Promises is a horrible tank. He used a 2hand non aggro weapon and insisted it was my fault he couldnt keep agro because I wasn't rooting every single mob. Heres a hint promises, root breaks. YOu cant rely on solely root for agro control. not to mention its not feasible to root every single mob repeatedly when you are mezzing and keeping a charm pet.

[Jimjam]

On many mobs in KC rooting isn't effective

Rooted summoning mobs will attack the person highest on the aggro list, provided he is in melee range, regardless of who is standing closest.

[Danth]

I might be slightly biased here (or not so slightly), but I believe if you want a tank who can actually hold aggro and be a tank in normal groups, pick a knight. Typical conditions in a normal experience group play away from the Warrior's strengths. He could stick on weapons with aggro specials, but because of dry spells he'll still lose aggro regularly and you'll make liberal use of root anyway. That's Warrior life. Pick a Paladin or Shadow Knight if you want to be freed from relying on root--right tool for the right job!

When the Cleric and Enchanter are both running low on mana, that's typically a sign of excessive pull rate. Some pick-up groups suffer the problem where they're full of experienced players who are used to doing thing differently, don't mesh well, and sometimes work against each other. The present situation the past few posters describe sounds akin to this type of situation: Nobody, individually, has mentioned anything hopeless but their groups obviously aren't working out too well.

Danth

[Amyas]

anyone who thinks necros are bad in groups is a newbay

[Sancta]

On many mobs in KC rooting isn't effective

Rooted summoning mobs will attack

With all due respect, I do not think you play here, sir.

[Troxx]

As a dedicated tank-class player, Monks who won't take off aggro-proc weapons annoy the tar out of me.

Danth

I've had a hotkey since first obtaining FD to flop, stand, and resume attacking. Dumping unwanted aggro is a cinch if you're not lazy.

[Jimjam]

With all due respect, I do not think you play here, sir.

Sure, the summoning mob faces the closest aggro person in range, but it actually lands the hits on the most hated.

[Sancta]

Sure, the summoning mob faces the closest aggro person in range, but it actually lands the hits on the most hated.

Mobs in Karnor's Castle do not summon, unless they are VS.

[DayForz]

I was summoned once by a mob in a Hand group...on my necro. I admit I was rather shocked. :D

[Teppler]

I was summoned once by a mob in a Hand group...on my necro. I admit I was rather shocked. :D



It's that construct of sathir mob. I think that's his name. Some higher level dog bodyguards and the captain summons too.

[izikiel]

51+ mobs can summon afaik

[Jimjam]

I was summoned once by a mob in a Hand group...on my necro. I admit I was rather shocked. :D

Spectral knights summon, Knights of Sathir summon, drolvarg bodyguards summon, undead jailer summons. Drolvarg Warlord summons, as does I believe the Pawbuster.

I think level 51+ is a good guideline if not the rule.

Basically if summoning happens you know you are on to some good xp!

Ideally in hands you want to be pulling hands, bodyguards and VS prep room. These are the highest level mobs in the zone (slightly higher even than the decaying soldiers) and can fairly consistently drop things worth a few 100pp to vendors). Obviously you can throw jail into this cycle for undead jailers/t staffs and ease of pulling bodyguards.

You'll also want to pull the single trash spawn above the locked door near RCY and the 2 trash mobs in the side room next to that in order to facilitate pulls from prep room.

If you are quick (or the mobs are slow) you can get prep room to path through the one way wall near hands, but otherwise you'll want the mobs to go through the lcy locked door, up the steps back into prep room and round the three mobs I previously mentioned.

You can use the walkway on the second floor in prep room as a perch to open the door to the knight/protector 2spawn room. Then run towards the VS spawn area and you can tag one of these mobs with a ranged/spell and both mobs will come at you.

Without lock picks or rez/coth/eye/crit resist paci shenanigans you can be aiming to pull about 9 mobs from this area. If you can do shenaningans you can pull nearly half a dozen more from the ground floor that are otherwise out of line of sight.

With necro charm dps helping get through the mobs, pulling this complete cycle becomes much easier. Especially if they can help CC, which in turn cuts down the amount of time the puller wastes out of the camp and can instead focus on dps too.

[Jimjam]

oh add Verix Kyloxs remains to the summoning list for KC.


Btw the phrase "with all due respect" is usually used ironically, please try to conduct yourself more courteously on the internet, especially when trying to help correct and inform others. We all start somewhere and all make mistakes.

[mattydef]

Trio'd with two necro's on my paladin at captain camp in KC back in the day. Was probably the most fun I've ever had in a group.

[tyrant49333]

Necros suck, they are the rangers of the caster tree. Can't DPS worth a shit unless they have a charm pet which makes them a group liability because they don't have the proper control tools. Rule of thumb - you want a charm pet get an enchanter. They can also mind buff the group, cc and haste which is way better utility. Necros with a summoned pet out get out dpsd by every other DPS class (monk, rog, mage) and don't site your shit parses grouping with undergeared and under leveled noobs in KC as evidence. Most rogues in Seb consistently parsing 90-110dps. Monks 70-90s while being able to pull. Youll never come close to being a proper DPS class. Come Seb you will be sitting lfg at entrance all day because necros contribute way less to every aspect of a Group than the intended class. Group should have a tank, puller, 2 DPS, slower and cleric. Can you put a necro in place of one of those spots? You could. Will it make the group shittier over all ? YES. Don't lie to yourself. Everyone knows this.

[Spyder73]

Group should have a tank, puller, 2 DPS, slower and cleric. Can you put a necro in place of one of those spots? You could. Will it make the group shittier over all ? YES. Don't lie to yourself. Everyone knows this.

You should app to Awakened, you sound like a future officer in the making!!!

I don’t think anyone is arguing Necromancers are a min/max choice for the typical melee-meat-grinder group full of epic’d rogues and monks. It’s the same argument with any caster class – sustained DPS vs Burst DPS. Melee don’t have mana, casters do - both do similar damage but one has a constraint and another doesn’t. Enchanters are the outlier because of how utterly broken charm damage is on P99.

Now where a Necromancer really shines is in small grouping situations…a trio with a Shaman and a Monk for example is about as powerful a trio as there is. If the only way you like to play P99 is with a chanter and cleric cheesing all content or with a group full of melee…then you will not likely find anything fun outside the min/max. This is an old and broken game (intentionally broken in some cases).

The rogue backstab pet actually does really nice damage. Is it as good as my epic/40% haste monk or a twinked-to-the-teeth rogue? No…But it’s not as bad as you are making it seem, especially when you add in the necromancer utility of healing/drains/twitching/roots. Necromancers really shine in the ability to take strain off the healers while adding in some decent damage (not top tier meat grinder damage).

TLDR: Think of necromancer as the grease that lubes the wheel, not the engine that drives it. As reference I have a 60 monk, 55 necromancer, and 55 Bard.

[Jimjam]

I was in a 4 mage, monk, ranger group the other day. Was great.

Didn't realise I was having fun wrong though.

[koros]

Where the hell are all you people saying necros can't dps getting that? You realize a necro pet is going to do ~50 dps? Even if they just alternate lifetaps and poison nukes, they're going to outdamage basically any monk in an exp group.

[Izmael]

By the time a necro masters their class and becomes a valuable group asset, they are close to 60 and solo HS or something. At these levels, groups often try to min/max as well.

[Teppler]

Where the hell are all you people saying necros can't dps getting that? You realize a necro pet is going to do ~50 dps? Even if they just alternate lifetaps and poison nukes, they're going to outdamage basically any monk in an exp group.


That guy who made that post is a clown.

Necro summoned pets are like 40-50 dps. Charmed ones are double or triple that easily and they are absolutely a thing in a zone like seb. Then necros can add nukes where they want in the battles instead of contributing useless dps when the mob is like 10%(and not fleeing due to necro snare). And they are the best nuking class in the game.

Having a class just for CC'ing or just for healing or just for high dps is great but how often is it needed in full groups?

Chanters rarely have to use the full efficiency of their CC'ing therefore they are not fully efficient in a lot of cases.

Same with clerics. In a lot of groups, nothing more than just a few heals once in a while is all that's needed.

Same with dps. Dps doesnt matter that much at higher level group play(not that necro dps is low)unless you are killing named dragon like mobs that have raid level hp. Most group content dies within 10 seconds no matter what the group make up is. Having extra group utility is usually more important than maximizing dps in these cases.


I've spent countless hours in seb and never really seen descrimination against necros. If your team doesn't want a necro because it thinks the class is inferior, your group is probably the thing that is inferior.

[Troxx]

Same with dps. Dps doesnt matter that much at higher level group play(not that necro dps is low)unless you are killing named dragon like mobs that have raid level hp. Most group content dies within 10 seconds no matter what the group make up is. Having extra group utility is usually more important than maximizing dps in these cases.

Well this this depends where you're hunting. The rate limiting factor in most groups isn't dps - it's the other stuff. Emp in seb? I've never been in a group less than 4 that had a hard time keeping up with spawns - we end up waiting around for repops. Still though, for emp I'd 100% rather have a rogue even a 2nd because you always need one for doors and to drag down replacements.

In a place like Kael arena where mobs have more hp (but especially the high regen) having dps beyond a to get over that hump really counts. Once you saturate the group with enough dps, you still get stuck waiting on repops.

Case in point: monk friend and I on shaman like to go duo arena. A veteran pull with just lv 60 monk dps and shaman pet can take 15 or more minutes due to regen. When we had our guild leader's alt necro (58) join us we cut our kill time by more than 70% because the extra pet plus necro dps allowed us to more completely overpower mob regen. Epic rogue dps allowed us to actually slightly slower because the rogue had to throttle back until we had mobs properly monk tashed and slowed. The necro pet didn't compete for aggro and slower burn dots could be applied early. More than anything, having an extra heal that stacks with torpor made handling rampage and the initial engage much more smooth. With a knight tanking, for raw dps the rogue would be preferable if you only consider kill speed, but the doing higher content with fewer folks still favors having extra skills/abilities whether that's pocket rez or more smooth healing.

If that group had been sham/monk/knight/dps or sham/monk/cleric/dps (5 guys) - the decision for rogue vs necro? Equally moot because with a good 5 man you can already keep both sides of the arena down pretty well. The difference between epic rogue dps and the sum total a necro + pet is not really important. The rogue is higher, but you're already pushed into a situation where you're limited by spawns. Necro in this case still brings other tools like Rez, mana twitches, snare, spot heals to the table.

I will close with this though. I parse a lot in groups. A lot of people out there put out a lot less dps than they THINK they do. This includes epic monks, rogues and rangers. An epic mage pet pretty much schools then all over time. Even max summon earth pet churns out 60-80 consistently.

[Topgunben]

Great thread 10/10

[Squabbles123]

It's because the number of lazy and/or shitty necros is way greater than people like yourself.

Same as the bard just playing regen and meleeing :)

It isn't' until you see a well played necro/bard by someone who isn't lazy that you realize how incredible they are.

This.

Its basically a Necro stereotype.

Necro is "Honzo" if you ever played Overwatch. Most are shit, but then you stumble into one that just wrecks face and you're like, wow, I didn't know they could DO that.

[kjs86z]

No one is going to argue the best 6 man group is:

Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter, Monk, Rogue, Shaman

However, that's only on paper. I'm a firm believer in "bring the player, not the class."

I've grouped with great necros and not so great necros. The best groups aren't always the "perfect six." Min / maxing is cool and all but if you can't enjoy the game with a less-than-optimal setup...you're doing it wrong.

[welly321]

No one is going to argue the best 6 man group is:

Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter, Monk, Rogue, Shaman

However, that's only on paper. I'm a firm believer in "bring the player, not the class."

I've grouped with great necros and not so great necros. The best groups aren't always the "perfect six." Min / maxing is cool and all but if you can't enjoy the game with a less-than-optimal setup...you're doing it wrong.

Why would you want a warrior over a knight in a 6 man group setting?

[Nirgon]

You can dispel the healing recourse effect on Pact of Shadow (and other spells in its line here) which is not classic and never worked on live either.

[Spyder73]

I asked a monk to duo with me in KC the other day and he told me ‘no thanks’...5-10 minutes went by and he finally he was like “well ok I guess we can try it for a little bit”. About 15 minutes in he told me that he was ‘stunned’ at how smoothly our duo was going because he had tried grouping with a few necros previously and it was just a sh!t show. They wouldn’t charm, they didn’t root CC, they didn’t heal appropriately, ect… Also in KC I had a person tell me ‘obviously I know nothing about necromancers’ after he realized I had been the only ‘healer’ in our group for the past 2 hours.

I have main healed King camp in Sebelis on my 57 necro more than once… With slows I am not really sure why people need Clerics outside of raid content.

[Jimjam]

I've had people compliment my ranger on his healing because they don't realise the necromancer is the one doing the bulk of the leg work :S

[Topgunben]

I've had people compliment my ranger on his healing because they don't realise the necromancer is the one doing the bulk of the leg work :S

This happens quite often. I don't think naysayers understand that a necro can heal a player for 324hps at the cost of 20 mana. That's 16 hp per mana spent, not bad at all.