Wrapped Entropy Serpent Spine - How Annoying / Dangerous?

[evanderheide]

Almost 40 warrior here. First character on the server - have asked a couple of questions on gearing here with excellent success / advice from people that's allowed me to develop the character really smoothly - so thank you in advance!

My big question - how annoying /dangerous is the Wrapped Entropy Serpent Spine for tanking? What kind of precautions would I need to take to avoid pulling a train to my group due to the "Blinding Poison" effect? Anyone have any experience how much caution you need to exercise using this weapon.

I'm asking because I'm currently rocking a Frostbringer and looking for a weapon to pair it with. I'd happily pair it with Infestation, but I doubt I'm going to have the 10k to buy loot rights for it anytime soon, so I was thinking of picking up a Wrapped Entropy Serpent Spine as an "almost as good" / more aggro generating weapon, but have heard a few people mention some potential risks.

Any tanks out there have any experience with WESS? Does it get you killed a lot? Does it totally rock and people are being babies complaining?

LMK! :)

[Naethyn]

I've been killed by another tank using this on a hot raid. Blind as a proc is far less controlled. Get a blood point or jagged blade instead. Also, haste is much more important to keeping aggro than procs so upgrade that when you can.

[Troxx]

Entropy spine is quite frankly one of the strongest aggro weapons in the game. 4 poison counters alone at 300 each makes each proc massive ... add a bit more for the blind and attack debuff.

The drawback is the blind. Raw aggro is likely a bit better than infestation but I'd consider the poker a better overall warrior weapon due to blind on whip.

For normal hunting I'd use the whip for sure - just need to make sure that anyone who might steal aggro is within melee range. If and when you land the proc, the aggro is massive enough that nobody should be stealing aggro back without being retarded.

[evanderheide]

Buriedpast - Haha okay, I'll make to let them know they're scrubs halfway through their corpse run. Good call.

Naeythn - I'm sorry to hear that. I do earnestly try to make sure nobody dies when I tank, though I feel very confident that by the time I'm doing HoT raid tanking, I'll have an Infestation. I'm more asking whether it's a good weapon for 40-60 group tanking in levelling zones like Karnor's and Seb. I'm confident that by the time I'm 60, I'll have figured out how to get an Infestation.

I definitely want to upgrade haste too, but I'm thinking the first legit upgrade would be Runebranded Girdle or Runed Bolster Belt? I don't feel like 2% more for SoDB is enough to justify 4-5k personally. Do you disagree? If you believe it is I'd like to know.

Troxx - Great advice - I'll make sure I pick one up then next and give some warnings when using it in groups. Sounds like as long as I give some fair warnings about potential issues it shouldn't be an issue the VAST majority of the time, which is really what I'd be looking to get out of it. All I want is a weapon I can use until I can legit raid Dragon Necropolis myself and acquire an Infestation the old fashioned way.

Any other opinions? Thanks so much guys, definitely feel more encouraged that it's a good pick-up / transition weapon that's worth the 1.5-2k to get me to the point where I can get an Infestation myself without forking over a buttload of money.

[kgallowaypa]

I think with the latest patch, as long as you are close within range, blind will work similar to root mechanics but I have had a few times in CoM when you are pulling as a tank and the proc hits right on the pull and it blows because the mob will rubber band back and forth to you and run away in its pathing direction. This is where your wooly spider silk nets come into play.
I currently rock the entropy spine with a Kujuch and I rarely get problems, works great for my ogre at 49 and with an enchanter to give you boon of the garou, or shaman for DEX, all your tanking problems are solved.

[evanderheide]

Great feedback as CoM is legit THE place I wanted to use the thing - sounds like it's decent there as long as you take precautions. I'm going to try and carry arrow / bow for pulls which I also think will help with that, though it sounds like I should also plan on doing some Permafrost camping :).

Complete side question - is there a place to vendor in CoM for evil NON-iksar nearby? I know it's bindable for melees, which is cool.


I think with the latest patch, as long as you are close within range, blind will work similar to root mechanics but I have had a few times in CoM when you are pulling as a tank and the proc hits right on the pull and it blows because the mob will rubber band back and forth to you and run away in its pathing direction. This is where your wooly spider silk nets come into play.
I currently rock the entropy spine with a Kujuch and I rarely get problems, works great for my ogre at 49 and with an enchanter to give you boon of the garou, or shaman for DEX, all your tanking problems are solved.

[kgallowaypa]

Specific to CoM, I found that in the past if you were pulling from stables area, the mobs would try to rubber band through arena with the goal of getting to the reavers in Moat. Seems to be the fear path that was scripted for CoM. because of the distance, if you get a mob that is blind/running away from lets say arena, he shouldn't agro the goos or anything else on the small houses next to rak-ashir but expect to have the mob run through moat ramp and try to get into the moat bulding..this is why it helps to have those snare nets. Of course you can always just unequip the entropy if your pulling as well but it could be a hassle. At the end of the day, consider your dex especially if the entropy is in the mainhand and you have over 200 buffed dex..got a good chance to proc right on swing and then you are chasing a mob while someone else is wondering where you are with a mob beating up your friends back at camp.

For arrow pulls, because of the popularity of CoM and hunger for mobs, single pulls with a full group are not efficient time-to-experience...Ideally, you might get a repop on the way back to camp and bring 2-3 in tow while your party root CC's the adds; much faster to swing, than equip bow and arrow, be still, then shoot...or be too close. Of course 3 mobs takes more effort to down than just 1, but by the time your camp has the last mob down to 50 pct, its time to run out for a pull which leaves the group a good 3-5 minutes to med for the next one. All this assumes you are pulling as a MT anyways which might be the case 20% of the time.

For the selling portion, I assume since your a tank you should have some STR advantage, just hold onto the gear you have and then when your ready to split, run to the point where druids port into from Emerald Jungle and hail a druid coming in for a ride to WC. Sell at the druid vendor there who is indifferent at West Commons then hitch a ride back with another druid right from there since it is a major junction for most porters...if you need to drop off cash, buy a ruby and sell it back or take the run to Neriak once you got a few thousand coin on your character.

[evanderheide]

Excellent information, thank you again dude as that gives plenty of context. I'd probably be using it in my offhand with Frostbringer in front and my troll isn't the most dexterous fellow, so sounds like it's not going to be an enormous issue. As you said, I'll just have some tools to deal with scenarios where the proc triggers on pull, ideally not having the problem at all using bow /summoned arrows for pulls. I think I'm going to buy one, overall sounds like a fantastic tank weapon!

[Troxx]

Frostbringer aggro sucks by comparison. It's not a bad weapon mind you but 60 hate from the DD + debuff is not in the same ballpark as 4 poison counters, blind, and debuff.

If you use it - I recommend main hand it.

[fastboy21]

I've been killed by another tank using this on a hot raid. Blind as a proc is far less controlled. Get a blood point or jagged blade instead. Also, haste is much more important to keeping aggro than procs so upgrade that when you can.

Bloodpoint is horrible for aggro. Haste also isn't going to help...the aggro added by the haste isn't going to put you over the top if you have any DPS/Slower in the group.

If you are a newbie warrior and need aggro you can only do it ONE way and that is with aggro weapons. The spine is a good one. Don't use it if you are pulling or if there is a ton of pong in your grps.

[kgallowaypa]

Albeit negligible, Disarm generates a little bit of threat. You could incorporate it into your kick attacks as it is a different ability and timer to use if you want that little sliver of threat with the Aggro weapons as fastboy mentioned. Doesn't hurt anything and it still generates small threat even if the mob in question does not have a weapon wielded.

[evanderheide]

kgallowaypa - your posts have been extraordinarily high quality on this thread. Thank you. I'm definitely going to buy one at this point, and a lot of that has come down to how thoroughly you've described how / what to do with the weapon. If you've got one for sale sometime next week, I'd definitely prefer giving you the business :)! If not, you made someone 2k. Anywho.

Had a related question about pulling - have you tried / would it work to just "Taunt" mobs on pull rather than risk having a proc go off on melee damage pull? Yes, losing out on the initial whacks sucks, but it means you have 0 potential blind problems.

[kgallowaypa]

New forum signature! lol no worries.. I actually will be keeping my spine until I can snag an infestation from DN one of these lucky vilefang spawn days.

As for taunt, I would not recommend that because you always want to have it ready if you need to have a chance to snap something off of the cleric/robe class that might have a pop or unexpected mob come to camp. There is no need to have that unloaded if you are running back to camp..if you are really concerned about pulling with a proc going off, just kick the mob or stand right next to it...But that is also not recommended as I will go more into that next. Taunt only works in close proximity anyways, there was no "taunting" from across the room in classic eq, although there must be some distance number to how far it will actually work (I believe within melee distance but I am not 100% on it).

At the end of the day, you ideally want to hit the mob a few swings before its back at camp for this main reason: Building threat. If you just kick the mob and run back, you have a small percentage of threat because kick is not very high damage until stunning kick..even then its not a pulling mechanic. Taunt only puts you at the top of the hate-list anyways so a mob with 0 hate towards you just get aggroed and essentially, makes taunt pulling useless.

But for argument sake. If you only kick the mob and run back to camp, and announce your "INCOMING ASSIST ME!" message, your team is already standing up and prepping to cast their tash/slow/debuff etc. There is no way a kick attack will keep threat on you before it is fully at camp - the mob will run straight to whoever cast on it after the fact. To avoid this, spend an extra 1-2 seconds whacking the mob to at least 96-98 PCT so that by the time it does come back to camp, you have a higher chance of keeping that agro and building from it before the enchanter tashes it right at 99 percent health.

[Danth]

Had a related question about pulling - have you tried / would it work to just "Taunt" mobs on pull rather than risk having a proc go off on melee damage pull? Yes, losing out on the initial whacks sucks, but it means you have 0 potential blind problems.

You can pull with slam/kick for the same effect. Alternately, pull with a bow and arrow. A couple rounds of white damage aren't going to hold something on you anyway. Been too many times I've seen a Shaman wait till a target is at 60% life or less before slowing and rip aggro anyhow. You're better off asking for root or telling the slower to stand there (don't run around) and wait for you to taunt it off.

Danth

[evanderheide]

Hello all! Thanks for the input.

What you're saying makes sense. I'm sure I'll get the hang of how to balance stuff given the risk of a proc. Overall, I'm stoked to get a whip. My warrior is a troll, so my slam has a nice stunning component, so I think it should generate some solid aggro for my character even if i have to resort to slam pulls for a while.

Kgallo, isn't Vilefang a 24 hour spawn? Regardless, the main reason I've been aiming to grab a whip is that it seems like the loot rights / set up for VF is pretty expensive at 10k a pop. I'm basically thinking the whip will be my main weapon until I start getting into No Drop territory. Are there any other really good aggro weapons that also have solid ratios that are droppable I should be aware of? I'm thinking I'll probably get a Club of Ice Ocean at some point, but we'll see.

[Troxx]

Silken whip of ensnaring 14/28 dirt cheap fairly good aggro weapon.

Finding a better tradable weapon with a 1:2 ratio is going to be expensive. You could settle for a slightly better proc but worse ratio, but it's still going to be very expensive and offhand proc rate isn't that great even with 200 dex.

Best realistic weapon combo for non high end raiding is THIS (entropy) and Infestation combined. One proc from either of these weapons should lock the mob on you unless you're grouped with retards. The easy fix for the danger of this proc is to have whoever might possibly get aggro simply stand within melee range ... really not hard.

Paladins have been holding aggro with blind forever and on proc of that weapon is a metric ton more aggro than a single (or 2-3) blind casts.

[Naethyn]

Bloodpoint is horrible for aggro. Haste also isn't going to help...the aggro added by the haste isn't going to put you over the top if you have any DPS/Slower in the group.

Bloodpoint is really good aggro, and the healing/damage is a factor.

Haste is easily the most important aggro you can add in this game as a warrior. Procs don't even come close. Aggro is really about position and white damage.

Frostbringer aggro sucks by comparison. It's not a bad weapon mind you but 60 hate from the DD + debuff is not in the same ballpark as 4 poison counters, blind, and debuff.

If you use it - I recommend main hand it.
24 AC debuff is the same aggro as a slow. Frostrbringer is 15 AC debuff and 60 dd which puts it below a real slow. AC debuff is the reason Cracked Claw of Zlandicar is such high aggro.

[evanderheide]

Yeah I've currently got a Silken Whip in my offhand but it doesn't proc until 50. Good ratio though for cheap, definitely. I appreciate the realistic top end predictions for aggro weapons, that all makes sense.

Bottom line, looking forward to grabbing one of these puppies this weekend / sometime next week. Sounds like its overall worthwhile weapon pick-up that will last me into mid 50's-60 cash grinding camps.

Good to know about that AC debuff Nathyn. I had heard AC debuffs were a strong aggro, sounds like that's very much the case.

[kgallowaypa]

10k for the infestation is not bad for the price in the grand scheme of things..but to some it is quite a pretty penny to spend for that extra proc agro when the wrapped entropy is a solid choice for a lot less. Depending on your finances and play-time though, this might be the best combo until you can afford the epic and/or VP drops respectively.

[Troxx]

Bloodpoint is really good aggro, and the healing/damage is a factor.

24 AC debuff is the same aggro as a slow. Frostrbringer is 15 AC debuff and 60 dd which puts it below a real slow. AC debuff is the reason Cracked Claw of Zlandicar is such high aggro.

Blood point is NOT good aggro.

15ac debuff with 60dd is not good at all by comparison to the weapon this thread is about.

Frostbringer:
12/22- good ratio
**15ac debuff - decent aggro
**60dd - minor addition

WESS
11/23- modest ratio
**4 poison counters (300 a pop) -HUGE (allcaps) aggro
**Blind - good aggro
**5 Atk debuff - extra bonus

Infestation
9/18 - goodish ratio
**3 poison counters (300 a pop) - Huge aggro
**12dd - meh aggro
**10/tick dot - meh aggro

Bloodpoint
10/21 - modest ratio
**80hp lifetap -minor aggro

Cracked claw of Zlandicar
14/25- quite good ratio
**Debuff (55str/agi +24ac) - Strong aggro

Silken Whip of Ensnaring
14/28 - goodish ratio
**Snare (~300) - Decent aggro

Trochilic's Skean (offhand only)
10/25 - not good ratio
**1 poison counter (300) - decent aggro
**spinatun (~350) decent aggro

-----------

Incapacite aggro is comparable to shaman slow. Zlandicar's claw pairs a good ratio with a good proc. The melee threat generated is less than monk epic fist but is better than many warrior ratios. In short fights it will yield more stable aggro and a proc for most groups will seal the deal regardless. Head to head, however, it will lose handily on long fights to infestation which sports an aggro proc close to 1k hate a pop. The strongest aggro of any weapons listed above is actually this thread's namesake - and it's cheap. Per proc you're looking at 1200 on p99 from the poison counters alone --- oh yeah and there's a blind component too ... that spell paladins use so much and for a good reason. You can estimate that at 1400-1600 threat per proc.

To put that into perspective, the Enraging blow proc found on luclin era Blade of Carnage (gold standard for many raid tanks until SSra procmod swords in Luclin is/was only 700 threat per proc.

WESS beats out willsapper and wavecasher for raw aggro as well.

Don't get me wrong, given the availability of raid weapons I would rather swing a different blade but if the only metric you're measuring is raw average hate production - it's damn hard to beat this weapon. As a lifelong warrior main back in the day (career raid tanking warrior on live luclin through SoF, I'm well aware that the RNG in this era is a fickle mistress. Superior ratio with a "good enough" proc will yield a more even-keeled combat experience, but once the procs roll in, the proc on this weapon and infestation put them in a category way at the top of the aggro tree.

On this server even raiding, it doesn't matter though as main tanks are addicted to blowing hammer charges on incoming and then recharging afterwards. The art of aggro domination and threat control (on the part of the raid in general) is lost on this server ... which really is a shame.

[fastboy21]

Bloodpoint is horrible. Haste isn't going to do it alone either. If you want aggro as a low warrior in a regular PUG exp grp you are going to need a weapon with an aggro proc.

Maybe your experience of not needing aggro weapons to hold aggro is true for you...but it certainly hasn't been my experience as a warrior on p99.

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Blood point is NOT good aggro.

15ac debuff with 60dd is not good at all by comparison to the weapon this thread is about.

Frostbringer:
12/22- good ratio
**15ac debuff - decent aggro
**60dd - minor addition

WESS
11/23- modest ratio
**4 poison counters (300 a pop) -HUGE (allcaps) aggro
**Blind - good aggro
**5 Atk debuff - extra bonus

Infestation
9/18 - goodish ratio
**3 poison counters (300 a pop) - Huge aggro
**12dd - meh aggro
**10/tick dot - meh aggro

Bloodpoint
10/21 - modest ratio
**80hp lifetap -minor aggro

Cracked claw of Zlandicar
14/25- quite good ratio
**Debuff (55str/agi +24ac) - Strong aggro

Silken Whip of Ensnaring
14/28 - goodish ratio
**Snare (~300) - Decent aggro

Trochilic's Skean (offhand only)
10/25 - not good ratio
**1 poison counter (300) - decent aggro
**spinatun (~350) decent aggro

-----------

Incapacite aggro is comparable to shaman slow. Zlandicar's claw pairs a good ratio with a good proc. The melee threat generated is less than monk epic fist but is better than many warrior ratios. In short fights it will yield more stable aggro and a proc for most groups will seal the deal regardless. Head to head, however, it will lose handily on long fights to infestation which sports an aggro proc close to 1k hate a pop. The strongest aggro of any weapons listed above is actually this thread's namesake - and it's cheap. Per proc you're looking at 1200 on p99 from the poison counters alone --- oh yeah and there's a blind component too ... that spell paladins use so much and for a good reason. You can estimate that at 1400-1600 threat per proc.

To put that into perspective, the Enraging blow proc found on luclin era Blade of Carnage (gold standard for many raid tanks until SSra procmod swords in Luclin is/was only 700 threat per proc.

WESS beats out willsapper and wavecasher for raw aggro as well.

Don't get me wrong, given the availability of raid weapons I would rather swing a different blade but if the only metric you're measuring is raw average hate production - it's damn hard to beat this weapon. As a lifelong warrior main back in the day (career raid tanking warrior on live luclin through SoF, I'm well aware that the RNG in this era is a fickle mistress. Superior ratio with a "good enough" proc will yield a more even-keeled combat experience, but once the procs roll in, the proc on this weapon and infestation put them in a category way at the top of the aggro tree.

On this server even raiding, it doesn't matter though as main tanks are addicted to blowing hammer charges on incoming and then recharging afterwards. The art of aggro domination and threat control (on the part of the raid in general) is lost on this server ... which really is a shame.

Solid post.

[kgallowaypa]

Troxx is correct on many points especially on how high end-raiding is done on p99. Of course not EVERY warrior in the raid is going to be Main Tank. It's worth considering your bag of toys as well. To be very clear, blood point is probably not the best agro generating weapon but it does have uses in duoing, soloing (if that's your thing at lower levels), etc...All these weapon combo warrant different tactics for different situations. Consider if WESS/Infestation was the BIS's for just that one purpose, the price would be considerably higher at the top of the spectrum versus the huge array of different combos available. -- Not every warrior needs to be tanking and with DISC's, one aspiring warrior can get very close to DPS of a monk/rogue on specific encounters.

[evanderheide]

First I wanted to thank the poster with the long weapon discussion, it was super helpful and gave me a lot of perspective on aggro mechanics for which I'm very grateful. I've tried to read through Sakuragi's stuff but your approach comparing ratios and proc worthiness was extremely illuminating. Sounds like the WESS is a great weapon for the bag of tricks and for tanking in PUGs which is really what I'm thinking.

Beyond that, sounds like eventually I will be saving for weapons with pure DPS focus too, which makes sense.

Thank you everyone for the input! This forum is why this community is so damn rewarding to play with.

[Dolalin]

Best hate weapon in the game for the money, hands down. I mainhand it on raids for one or two procs, then swap back to Silken Whip of Rage / Veldrak's Shortblade. Never have problems.

[evanderheide]

Hey all,

I just wanted to thank everyone for the advice and reassurance on purchasing this weapon.

In short, after using it this weekend, it's a fantastic aggro weapon that I'm extremely glad that I got. The second that proc goes off NOTHING is getting off me. Haven't had an on pull proc yet, but i mostly just try to ensure I pull with Slam to avoid problems.

Great weapon - really glad people encouraged me on it.

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Why are you face pulling?
Buy a bow.

[Dolalin]

Why are you face pulling?
Buy a bow.

Ogres gotta keep up their good looks.

[elwing]

how fare the cheap scorpikis claw impaler there?

[Aesop]

Scorpikis Claw is 3 poison counters
12 hp dd
10/tick for a decent amount of time

Same proc as Infestation so it's good bang for the buck.

[Aesop]

Kicsh Der Pavz was a strong aggro offhand in classic, because DW sucks for a while anyhow and +5 dex and the proc:

Strong Poison
1: Increase Poison Counter by 4
2: Decrease HP when cast by 30
3: Decrease Hitpoints by 14 per tick

10/38 though. Wonder what the proc rate is on that with 38 delay

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Proc rate has nothing to do with delay.

[Troxx]

how fare the cheap scorpikis claw impaler there?

Scorpikis claw impaler:
8/25- not a good ratio ratio
**3 poison counters (300 a pop) - Huge aggro
**12dd - meh aggro
**10/tick dot - meh aggro

For raw aggro it's good. DPS output and melee threat will be pretty poor, so until you get that first proc or two it won't be pretty.

[evanderheide]

Hey guys just figured I'd report back a bit on the WESS is performing - overall it's outstanding. As you guys have all pointed out, it WAY outperforms the Frostbringer for threat generation. Legitimately, the second the proc goes off, the mob is staying on my for more or less the rest of the fight, and it it gets tugged off, there's another proc around the corner.

I will say that I had had ONE instance where we needed to run to the zone. Basically, we were grouping without an effective CC and using root. Early on, I was focusing a mob, then was forced to switch AFTER a proc went off early in the fight on the first mob. That mob had been rooted so when the root wore off it went running.

Thankfully I realized what happened and we zoned - no biggie - but it is something yo need to monitor

[falkun]

Another fellow using an FFT class for his avatar!

[evanderheide]

FFT FTW!!!!

I love the character and pixel art from Final Fantasty Tactics. It has this wonderful innocence to the faces that contrasts so well with the bleakness of the political intrigue.

[KEWLGET]

blind whip is fine for raid mobs, pretty risky for anything else

i've seen it blind ToV trash and wipe raids since blind was pretty buggy

[Aesop]

Proc rate has nothing to do with delay.

why did they used to slow the warrior for shakerpaging?

[Troxx]

Because shakerpaging was firing a single aa rampage ability. Being slowed increases your chances any given swing that you will proc. Over time, it does not affect proc rate.

[evanderheide]

Another fellow using an FFT class for his avatar!

What does your Lancer equate to class-wise in EverQuest? Or did you just pick it because bad ass helmet + cloak?

The samurai, aside from looking cool, is legitimately what a WAR in EverQuest is - relatively well armored character who "Draw Out" magic from weapons

[falkun]

This is digressing from the topic, but...

They do not equate skill-wise. No EQ class is based on delayed, hard hitting attacks. However, the gold lancer matches the bard's imbrued platemail in color. Also, I thoroughly enjoyed the lancer class over knights. If draw out didn't break the sword so often in FFT I might have liked the samurai more.

That and knight+ninja dual wield+excalibur glitching=OP melee.

[IFSNews]

Because shakerpaging was firing a single aa rampage ability. Being slowed increases your chances any given swing that you will proc. Over time, it does not affect proc rate.

thanks

[IFSNews]

I always misunderstood how procs work until now apparently.