Future MMORPGs: Do we really need a Monk class?

[JurisDictum]

Monks are based on the Shaolin warrior monks of China...Also known as Shaolin warriors. Due to various Confucian and Buddhist ideals, they learned to fight with blunt weapons and fists instead of swords and pikes. Likewise, armor and shields never caught on in a land with few pikes or swords.

But they were basically just fighters like any other warrior in any other region. They just had a unique culture that emphasized the blunt/bare weapon loophole. If you beat someone to death with a stick -- its OK because a stick clearly wasn't intended to kill them...yea it was a pretty dumb argument-- but it was the middle ages when this got started.

Basically from a lore perspective -- unless we are going to add a dozen specific Asian classes -- it would make more sense just to let warriors be Asian and use Asian weapons. They do this in most games even EQ -- Katanas etc. Just add in bow staffs and katas or whatever.

Fists don't make sense evidenced by the monks getting their ass kicked by real armies when they tried that shit (Mongols). It only worked during assassination operations. Which leads me to the fundamental problem with Monks as a concept:

Their warrior/rogue hybrids. These two classes combined are hard to balance. They tend to be overpowered tanky-ass rogues like classic EQ. They may also be rogue clones that basically amounts to Asian-inspired rogues. Perhaps they could be warrior-clones -- kind of like warriors only Asian....

They don't really have a place from a game play perspective. Vanguards idea of 4 different humans based on African, Asian, Northern and Middle-Eastern -- was a good idea. That way if you really want to be something like a monk lore wise -- just be an Asian rogue or warrior.

We don't need these kinds of ethnically-specific classes these days.

[Doctor Jeff]

what the fuck. monks aren't asian you racist

[JurisDictum]

what the fuck. monks aren't asian you racist

They don't base MMORPG monks on Trappist monks in fucking Belgium, do they? Although that's not a bad idea in game with crafting classes:

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[AzzarTheGod]

When WoW added monks, I was intrigued.

I don't really know much about them over there, as far as what they do. I imagine its not very special.

[JurisDictum]

When WoW added monks, I was intrigued.

I don't really know much about them over there, as far as what they do. I imagine its not very special.

In WoW it works like this: pick a class that has some unique-looking abilities -- then pick a specialization that will make you a equally balanced healer, tank, or DPS. Some are more powerful temporarily here and there -- but it tends to even out and not be that big of deal.

You basically play a homogenized tank, healer, ranged DPS or melee DPS.

Those four roles are the only real classes. The rest is aesthetic. Class homogenization sucks. Classes should be balanced to content -- like in EQ -- not balanced against each other.

[Sage Truthbearer]

I like having staff-wielding light melee classes in MMOs. They don't have to be Shaolin inspired, for example the Friar class in DAoC is more of a Benedictine monk .

[AzzarTheGod]

In WoW it works like this: pick a class that has some unique-looking abilities -- then pick a specialization that will make you a equally balanced healer, tank, or DPS. Some are more powerful temporarily here and there -- but it tends to even out and not be that big of deal.

You basically play a homogenized tank, healer, ranged DPS or melee DPS.

Those four roles are the only real classes. The rest is aesthetic. Class homogenization sucks. Classes should be balanced to content -- like in EQ -- not balanced against each other.

Sounds like a sub-game, the Arena, is dictating design now 100% and that everything revolves around small group balance in PvP and not the old Battleground balance they used during WOTLK.

Battleground balance and mass pvp balance allowed them to avoid homogenization. The Arena seems to have taken over primary balancing directive.

I remember Blizzard devs posting they use large-scale PvP to determine class balance, not group PvP. I guess thats over with. Unless they truly felt that people were upset over X Y Z class not being the BEST at a certain role. I do remember Paladin's and Warriors bitching at each other regularly, also people were violently upset at druid tanks for a long time because it was easymode faceroll without any gear.

[maskedmelonpai]

i agree with OP, fists almost as ineffective as prayers in real combat...

i feel super triggered, so gonna applaud OP and think bout maybe posting more on this later (-.-; )

[Pokesan]

those goddamn racist video games

[entruil]

I remember watching a discovery? channel documentary years ago about people who studied martial arts in a "monk" fashion... they trained with a pretty sizable stone on a pedestal beside the great wall of china by hitting it repeatedly with the back of their hand ... does that coincide with topic? are only shaolin monks really considered monks?

gave up trying to find show clips... was a discovery channel show where martial artists (mostly newts(a newt is a lizard with no balls)) traveled to seek training from profound,remote,etc... masters around the world.

[JurisDictum]

I think this is some of the original concept art McQuaid was working with:

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[entruil]

Picture is pretty correct except anyone could be seated...

A lot of developments throughout history in the martial arts are directly correlated with governments clashing and controlling the free will people?

You could argue about how this led to a massively armed population in the US?


...


IMO it's pretty clear why monks are needed and must be disciplined...

[entruil]

Monks are invaluable...

If you don't call it a monk you will call it a badass when it is the class that breaks intentions and defines gameplay...

[Lune]

Monks are imba as fuck but they have some of the most interesting emergent gameplay in the history of rpgs, which I think gives them a place from a gameplay perspective. There's nothing out there quite like the FD/sneak/shuriken splitting that they do. Clickie robes with sparkles. An epic you equip in an armor slot that also sparkles. What a fun class.

[AzzarTheGod]

I think this is some of the original concept art McQuaid was working with:

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lmao we've been bitching about the so-called labor market for hundreds of years apparently. new report out, labor market just hit record lows in 2015 and hasn't improved a bit in 2016-2017. lol jobs folks, bigtime, dirt paying jobs.

gr8 distraction from the incredible vast wealth generation possible under the current fiat system and stock market shadow economy.

the original principles this country was founded on didnt take into account that some day there would be a shadow economy where you can take 1 billion dollars and flip it into 2-3 billion on a good week. 7 trillion in unrealized assets are traded every day by these hedge funds, 2.6 trillion of which is hard cash.

but taxing the shit out of multiplicative capital gains i.e. hedge funds, makes no sense right. and we cant even start there anyway, the idiot socialists keep saying to rape the pocketbooks of the 1% so nothing ever gets done. extremist groups prevent any rational discussion or rational politic from taking place. "we're gonna destroy wallstreet!!" -Sanders idiocy.

I'd love to hear an economist explain how taxing capital gains at an 80% rate over a certain cap is somehow detrimental to the market and could cause instability. I am sure there are think-tanks with studies at the ready to hand to Senators in case there is ever a suggestion that we heavily tax these high-stakes poker games that involve currency changing hands that is NOT EVEN BACKED BY THE COST OF LABOR. The money has worked for itself for a long time, the money doesn't represent any labor value. Its fake money these hedge funds are throwing around and we aren't even allowed to talk about taxing that? cucked

its laughable keep getting cucked by lobbyists and 0.00001 super-wealthy (20 billion+) agenda, none of whom trickle anything down due to globalization + shadow economics. Its not the Rockerfeller Standard Oil days where the incredibly wealthy guy is creating jobs and investing directly back into the economy, or buying Ford cars, or investing into American corporations.

Lol keep worrying about what bathroom someone is pissing in while the oligarchs continue to not invest a cent into the country, see how long that lasts. Without the Federal Reserve printing extra fake money (they call it a "loan" but you can't say its a legitimate loan because nobody has any idea of how much loaning and leveraging the Fed is really doing-- therefore it can be assumed a large percent of the money is straight up fake, otherwise we'd have transparency on these loans and leverages) you'd be up shits creek because so many vampires have taken the jewels and run in the last 100 years.

[AzzarTheGod]

Good piece on hedge funds, and whether they are essential, in light of the new Showtime series "Billions" which has been focusing on them extensively.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/hedge-funds-serve-very-little-useful-purpose-except-make-few-people-very-rich

[AzzarTheGod]

theres a reddit for this its called cuckoldstories

ill pass on the downvotes. hit a zog brain w/ woke till it commence to stroke.


bars. who got next

[Swish]

When WoW added monks, I was intrigued.

lol kung fu panda... what a way to suicide a popular game :D :D

[AzzarTheGod]

man i really clapped off in this thread its over for a lot of you cucks in y2k

[skarlorn]

I agree, Juris. Monks have always lacked luster for me in EQ and WoW.

[AzzarTheGod]

I agree, Juris. Monks have always lacked luster for me in EQ and WoW.

Now Vanguard monks...that was a monk.

Had heals, barriers, vicious melee and everything. They were the only healer that was able to tank endlessly without mana. Very monk-like design.

[maskedmelonpai]

Now Vanguard monks...that was a monk.

Had heals, barriers, vicious melee and everything. They were the only healer that was able to tank endlessly without mana. Very monk-like design.

you thinking disciple, Azz ^^ they was the monk-healer and yeah never needed much mana if they did things right.

monks in vanguard were pretty awful to begin with but became liek super genki-damaesque burst dps machines.

that anither thing that set monks apart from ordinary warriors: ki or spiritual energies. warrior just about smashin heads and slashin guts. monk all about focus and discipline and manipulation of life energies to augment they self and not get smashed heads or slashed guts.

also, mongols were successful because they had iddy biddy bows they could shoot while running around on they horses (which they had lots of), not just because some buddhist celebates who could break stones with they face had soft spots too>.>

feeling slightly less triggered this morning...

[JurisDictum]

I just want to point out: its pretty fucking stupid to argue a class that uses "ki energies" and martial arts called monk is not Asian. That's all Asian as fuck and a clearly inspired by Asian shit.

Not as many offenders on this forum, but I got a lot of it for the same post on this one:

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/461436/future-mmorpgs-do-we-really-need-a-monk-class/p1

[Secrets]

At least they're not called Kung Fu Masters. That would be a bit blatant.

[loramin]

Monks are based on the Shaolin warrior monks of China...Also known as Shaolin warriors. Due to various Confucian and Buddhist ideals, they learned to fight with blunt weapons and fists instead of swords and pikes. Likewise, armor and shields never caught on in a land with few pikes or swords.

Basically from a lore perspective -- unless we are going to add a dozen specific Asian classes -- it would make more sense just to let warriors be Asian and use Asian weapons. They do this in most games even EQ -- Katanas etc. Just add in bow staffs and katas or whatever.

While I'm for allowing Asian-themed Warriors, I feel like you're looking at this from a very historic perspective, and I'd argue that's the wrong perspective. MMOGs aren't medieval times simulators, they're elf simulators, ie. fantasy world simulators. And fantasy worlds have a long tradition of bare-handed fighters. They started out as Asian in origin, but now they're part of the Western fantasy model. As proof I submit that the original (advanced) dungeons and dragons had a monk class, and so did the very first Final Fantasy game (well, it was called "black belt", but same diff).

So whether monks came from Asia or not originally (and they clearly did), there is now an archetype in western fantasy game worlds of the bare-handed fighter, and I don't see that going away.

[JurisDictum]

This is from Wikipedia:

Dungeons & Dragons

The original monk character class was created by Brian Blume, inspired by the fictional martial arts of the Destroyer series of novels.[2] The monk was introduced in 1975's Blackmoor supplement.

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st edition

The monk was available as a character class known as a "mystic" in the game's "Basic" edition, introduced in the Dungeons & Dragons Master Set.

In 1985, the next official revision of the monk appeared as a character class in the first edition Oriental Adventures rulebook, by Gary Gygax and David Cook.[7] This version retained most of the class as presented in the first edition Players Handbook, but replaced the abstract hand-to-hand attacks with a more specific rules system to emulate different styles of martial arts (such as karate, judo, etc.). According to a reviewer for White Dwarf, this version of the monk was "altered to fit into an Eastern pattern", and was "at last in the proper context".[8]

------

I have to admit I never knew this. I always assumed that they were aware of the eastern origins of the monk class from that start. But it looks like it was just a Kill Bill style character that inspired the whole thing (just an assassin that knows karate).

After that they started thinking "where does all this come from....oh yea -- duh -- Asia." After that they proceeded to make it a more "oriental" themed class.

So its true that there is an origin of monk as a class that is basically martial arts wielding assassins. But I still claim it would be better just to let rogues pick up martial arts as part of their kit. Maybe a subtype of Rogue for example.

Meanwhile, throughout most of RPG history monk has clearly been a reference to the Asian-trained karate guy in the group. When I played AD&D as a kid, it was the 2nd edition and monk wasn't in the players handbook. So I couldn't imagine why some one would argue otherwise.

[stonez138]

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st edition

The monk was available as a character class known as a "mystic" in the game's "Basic" edition, introduced in the Dungeons & Dragons Master Set.

This is not correct. Basic edition is D&D not AD&D. There is no monk in D&D basic edition and in AD&D the monk class existed before oriental adventures. Oriental adventures introduced Yakuza and I and I want to say samurai maybe but monk for sure existed before oriental adventures.

[stonez138]

AD&D 1st edition players handbook has the monk as a subclass of the rogue.

[Pyrion]

Just look at the other classes for just a moment in a historical context:
Bard: (sure, in the old days they could make your ears bleed... but c'mon).
Paladin: Those were probably just intolerant assholes
Cleric: People whose profession it was to suck dry the gullible
Magician: Yea, sure, they had a pet... it probably had a female name and was their wife.
Necromancers: Just some sickos with necrophilic tendencies.
Warrior: Most likely serving in an army. Most likely not taunting but doing the opposite, not attracting attention.

EQ is not about portraying the classes in an accurate historical context. You are given an idealized view on everybody. You want to be a fantasy hero, not some real life loser.

[Jizzebel]

Lee Sin

[loramin]

AD&D 1st edition players handbook has the monk as a subclass of the rogue.

Actually that's not correct. Go to page 4 (of the PDF, 3 of the book):
http://archmagev.com/1st_Ed/Rulebooks/TSR02010A%20-%20Player's%20Handbook%20(Original%20Idol%20Cover% 20-%20OCR'd).pdf

As you can see the Monk was entirely it's own class, from the start (of AD&D).

This is not correct. Basic edition is D&D not AD&D. There is no monk in D&D basic edition and in AD&D the monk class existed before oriental adventures. Oriental adventures introduced Yakuza and I and I want to say samurai maybe but monk for sure existed before oriental adventures.

This.

[maskedmelonpai]

They don't really have a place from a game play perspective. Vanguards idea of 4 different humans based on African, Asian, Northern and Middle-Eastern -- was a good idea. That way if you really want to be something like a monk lore wise -- just be an Asian rogue or warrior.

We don't need these kinds of ethnically-specific classes these days.

OP you makin' a really bizarre argument. you arguing that racial diversity more important than cultural diversity. what wrong with just being one race (human) that let you pick all the colors you want and have culturally themed classes?
you think japanese not proud to have samurai as they herritage? you think china not proud to have kung-fu as they herritage? you think americans not proud to have cowboys as they herritage? you think nords not proud to have vikings as they herritage? what the deal? many asian mmo incorporate all sorts of asian themed rolls and the most prolific fantasy franchise of all time (over 100 titles) has monks alongside warriors. and like loramin said it been that way from the beginning.

why we have to relegate asian themes to asialand? it fantasy. why it all have to be oatmeal? what wrong with some ginger? and why we have to make a bunch of cultural themes or none? US have liek maybe one that make sense: cowboys. they clearly american. now it work for mexicans too, but they had bigger hats and wore carpets and fancy boots instead of denim and g-rags. japan really only have liek three famous archteypes: samurai, ninja, geisha. those all uniquely japanese. yeah sure, we could just lump samurai in with knights, ninja in with rogues and geisha in with whores, but japanese culture made them they own thing.

also, race isn't what makes those culturally themed classes the classes. thick hair, pretty eyes and a baby face not what make a ninja a ninja. and it not just sneaking around either. it the lifestyle and super cool hand runes that make magic stuff and face masks and tabi and everything else that go along with it. you can't just give a rogue a kunai and say, now you a ninja! that not how it works >.>

A+ troll though, i still rustled >.>

[JurisDictum]

OP you makin' a really bizarre argument. you arguing that racial diversity more important than cultural diversity. what wrong with just being one race (human) that let you pick all the colors you want and have culturally themed classes?
you think japanese not proud to have samurai as they herritage? you think china not proud to have kung-fu as they herritage? you think americans not proud to have cowboys as they herritage? you think nords not proud to have vikings as they herritage? what the deal? many asian mmo incorporate all sorts of asian themed rolls and the most prolific fantasy franchise of all time (over 100 titles) has monks alongside warriors. and like loramin said it been that way from the beginning.

why we have to relegate asian themes to asialand? it fantasy. why it all have to be oatmeal? what wrong with some ginger? and why we have to make a bunch of cultural themes or none? US have liek maybe one that make sense: cowboys. they clearly american. now it work for mexicans too, but they had bigger hats and wore carpets and fancy boots instead of denim and g-rags. japan really only have liek three famous archteypes: samurai, ninja, geisha. those all uniquely japanese. yeah sure, we could just lump samurai in with knights, ninja in with rogues and geisha in with whores, but japanese culture made them they own thing.

also, race isn't what makes those culturally themed classes the classes. thick hair, pretty eyes and a baby face not what make a ninja a ninja. and it not just sneaking around either. it the lifestyle and super cool hand runes that make magic stuff and face masks and tabi and everything else that go along with it. you can't just give a rogue a kunai and say, now you a ninja! that not how it works >.>

A+ troll though, i still rustled >.>

My argument is to make 1 Asian class in the Euro-themed RPG -- then stack all the Asian flavor into that 1 class -- isn't the best way to incorporate Asian mid-evil fantasy. It makes more sense to just spread it across several classes and maybe a human sub-type (like Vanguard's Asian Humans). But that's not what MMORPGs usually do. They just have Monks as an Asian-inspired Kung-Fu fighter that that doesn't really fit. It strikes me as more tokenism than truly integrating the different cultures.

I wouldn't care except the monk role never really makes sense. They shouldn't be tanky at all, and martial arts was practiced throughout the entire history of warriors across cultures -- not just the token Asian-themed fighter.

We don't make African characters with penis sheaths and spears and pretend that's just as a competitive way to fight as full plate mail and sword. It wasn't.

[JurisDictum]

Oh and btw: this is what we call white-washing:

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When you take what is clearly Asian and turn the skin white and go: "Nope! Not Asian. Ours now!"

[maskedmelonpai]

Oh and btw: this is what we call white-washing:

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8361

When you take what is clearly Asian and turn the skin white and go: "Nope! Not Asian. Ours now!"


Sukiyaki Western Django - Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BjjQQKIbjU)

http://i.imgur.com/XibzJwo.jpg



you right, i super pissed right now...

[Pokesan]

it's pretty racist to say all asian people are cartoons

[loramin]

When you take what is clearly Asian and turn the skin white and go: "Nope! Not Asian. Ours now!"

Sukiyaki Western Django - Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BjjQQKIbjU)

you right, i super pissed right now...

To me what's lame isn't when a culture borrows something from another, it's when Hollywood says "well an Asian person can't be the star of *INSERT BLOCKBUSTER HERE* because the part's not for Asians". Then they get a movie where there would finally be a starring role for an Asian person ... and they give it Scarlet Johansen. That seems a little F-ed up to me.

There's no reason why every race can't have heroes who resemble them, and yet because of how Hollywood works if you're not white you have very few cinematic ones to choose from.

[maskedmelonpai]

To me what's lame isn't when a culture borrows something from another, it's when Hollywood says "well an Asian person can't be the star of *INSERT BLOCKBUSTER HERE* because the part's not for Asians". Then they get a movie where there would finally be a starring role for an Asian person ... and they give it Scarlet Johansen. That seems a little F-ed up to me.

There's no reason why every race can't have heroes who resemble them, and yet because of how Hollywood works if you're not white you have very few cinematic ones to choose from.

you right, we need black george washington, white ghandi and yellow charlemagne. it make the world a better place.

[AzzarTheGod]

Lee Sin

man i used to rip ass on lee sin in the jungle. now i dont have the patience or inclination to play MOBAs

[loramin]

you right, we need black george washington, white ghandi and yellow charlemagne. it make the world a better place.

Someone needs to level up their trolling skill. No rustles.

[maskedmelonpai]

Someone needs to level up their trolling skill. No rustles.

it true :c i not a good troll. im sorry :c


i really actually like the idea of sharuramensuke though ^^

[loramin]

i really actually like the idea of sharuramensuke though ^^

Sounds like a great anime to me. And I believe it would be Shiyarumengu (if you're transliterating).

[maskedmelonpai]

Sounds like a great anime to me. And I believe it would be Shiyarumengu (if you're transliterating).

mine sound like a pretty ninja though

[loramin]

mine sound like a pretty ninja though

True

[JurisDictum]

man i used to rip ass on lee sin in the jungle. now i dont have the patience or inclination to play MOBAs

Yea MOBAs are fun. But I can't play them for 3 reasons:

1) The community is a garbage mix of teenagers with shitty attitudes and adults that act like teenagers with shitty attitudes. People say "oh just queue with friends." Oh come on -- 4 friends any time you want to play the game? All around your skill and playing as a coordinated team of course....

2) They change too damn much all the time. It's very annoying to play such a competitive game where the characters are constantly being added, skills retooled, items reworked etc..

3) Losing is worse than other competitive games. I have more fun losing CS or RTS games than MOBAs. Because I don't have low self-esteem, I don't enjoy "stomping" the other team that much either. So its a minority of games that hit the sweet spot.

[Skinned]

They don't base MMORPG monks on Trappist monks in fucking Belgium, do they? Although that's not a bad idea in game with crafting classes:

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When the kings sought to gain power over the churches they disarmed the monks. So as a result, so that the monks could defend their wealth, they designed decorations that can be used as weapons, such a holy water sprinklers that doubled as a maces. They might be drunk and peaceful now, but as the only meritocracy on earth during the dark ages they had to be ready to brawl, and they weren't the typical Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon, which is a warrior like template.