Bard Group: When to hangup the sword and pick up the lute?

[Tetsuo]

Considering how horrid bard damage is, I was wondering what level would it be more beneficial for the group to just drop the stat stick and just jam out ?

[gildor]

I would say 34ish..you get your first cantana, can twist that with various other tools depending on group make up..

You can twist haste, mana chant, psalm, catanan and throw a dot here and there if your groups DPS is solid etc..

The thing about bard is play it to the situation. Probably the most versatile class in everquest.

[darkreap]

When I would twist songs at low levels I would use melee weapons and right before cantana went off I would equip my lute. Kinda a PITA but I think people who don't know how to bard get pissy when you don't melee sometimes.

[Pyrion]

at 46 you can do more than 130/tick with just the 3 ranged dots while equipping a drum. Your weapons probably can't keep up with that. That damage is quite reliable too, other than the sporadic nature of weapon damage.

Generally i would say i switched more and more to instruments starting in the late 30ties.

[Aaramis]

I suppose it all depends on your weapons and instruments.

In the example above, 130dmg between 3 songs means each song is doing what, about 43dmg?
Depending on your instrument modifier, switching to melee could mean each song dropping to about 30d'ish mg - so 90dmg with weapons out vs 130 without.

So as long as your weapons do 40dmg per tick then you're pulling even, and with a haste item, haste song, and decent weapons, you should be hitting that.

I dunno, maybe I did Bard completely wrong, but I found that the vast majority of times it was worth meleeing.

[fishingme]

In a raid or downtime I would use an instrument. Bard charm or cc while melee is good.

[Pyrion]

Equipping an instrument applies the instrument modifier to the dot damage. if your isntrument has strength 21 (mistmoore battle drums, easy to get) than your damage increases by a factor of 2.1. So the 130 will be a bit more than 60 without instruments. Hard to do more than 60 damage a tick reliably with weapons as a 46 bard. Still, it's a possibility. You will have to be close to the mob though which is another inconvenience if you want to fear kite for example.

If you really *like* to swing your weapons you won't gimp yourself by doing so and applying dots at the same time, but the effort is really not needed.


I suppose it all depends on your weapons and instruments.

In the example above, 130dmg between 3 songs means each song is doing what, about 43dmg?
Depending on your instrument modifier, switching to melee could mean each song dropping to about 30d'ish mg - so 90dmg with weapons out vs 130 without.

So as long as your weapons do 40dmg per tick then you're pulling even, and with a haste item, haste song, and decent weapons, you should be hitting that.

I dunno, maybe I did Bard completely wrong, but I found that the vast majority of times it was worth meleeing.

[Pyrion]

One thing to add: If you are *not* in a DPS role and the group needs your other songs (haste, shielding and such) then using your weapons is of course the best thing you can do. Free damage, however little, is always nice.

[Aaramis]

Equipping an instrument applies the instrument modifier to the dot damage. if your isntrument has strength 21 (mistmoore battle drums, easy to get) than your damage increases by a factor of 2.1. So the 130 will be a bit more than 60 without instruments. Hard to do more than 60 damage a tick reliably with weapons as a 46 bard. Still, it's a possibility. You will have to be close to the mob though which is another inconvenience if you want to fear kite for example.

If you really *like* to swing your weapons you won't gimp yourself by doing so and applying dots at the same time, but the effort is really not needed.

Yeah, MM drums are one of the higher ratios - I was using an example of about a 1.6 modifier which is probably the base stuff, which is why I said it depends on your gear. If you have awesome instruments, then yeah, you're probably better off just using instruments. If you're an A/A twink with a Siren Song dagger, then melee is probably your better option.

All told, though, the damage is probably not going to be a huge difference between melee + base songs vs. no melee + instrument-modified songs. Probably equates to less than a 5 or 10% variable, although that's a number I'm just guessing at.

Obviously, for swarm kiting melee is out. And dragons / raid targets, I'd probably avoid melee too unless you have Siren Song / Epic and want to proc.

[Aaramis]

I should also add that if you're twisting 3 DoTs, then you're not singing haste, snare/slow, or anything else, most likely. But if you're doing all that other stuff, hastening folks, singing a slow, and throwing in just one DoT, then perhaps you'd be better off meleeing.
Losing instrument damage for just one DoT should be more than made up for with melee, especially in a melee group where you're singing haste.

So, not only does it depend on your instruments or weapons, I'd argue it also depends on your group, too.
No point in meleeing and singing haste if you're in a caster group. Easier to let a pet tank, and just sing your DoTs from afar and throw in some mana regen, and maybe slow the mob if nobody else is.
Versatility :)

[Cwall 146.0]

there are very rare situations where i would prefer to use a melee weapon over an instrument unless you have access to epic and higher end velious weapons

[Darguth]

I would say 34ish..you get your first cantana, can twist that with various other tools depending on group make up..

You can twist haste, mana chant, psalm, catanan and throw a dot here and there if your groups DPS is solid etc..

The thing about bard is play it to the situation. Probably the most versatile class in everquest.

Fairly n00b question but does Chant of Clarity's mana regen stack with Cantana's?

[cor3nth]

Never give up the sword, the best bards dual wield with Jonathan's song playing. No need to twist songs.

[Troxx]

It depends entirely on the group and what is going on.

Between fights the lute ALWAYS comes out. Cantana Nivs and a double mana pulse adds up. With a good lute that adds almost 45hp and 17 mana per tick (averaged over the 4 song twist) to the entire group - regen that stacks with all other gear and buffs. If the extra hp from Nivs (5 before string mod) isn't needed it's cantana plus mana pulses it averages out to around 30hp a tick with 19-20 mana a tick to the whole group.

Unless the healing isn't beneficial I usually keep instruments as bards contribution really is better by focusing on the song aspect. With good weapons at 60 out dps is still bad ... really bad. Trying to shuffle mezzes/targets while maintaining melee generally results in lost opportunities to do something more useful.

If the group really is chugging on autopilot, I'll melee with standard regen rolling along with haste, buffs, slows, snares etc. For mundane groups and mindless grinding, more isn't required.

Bards add the most to their groups in ways other than directly damaging the enemy. This isn't to say we can't do great damage - it's just not the most helpful thing. I can load enough and maintain enough dots to average 72dps plus my pitiful melee. Granted this leaves no room in cast cycle for any mana, regen, haste, resists, mezzes, slows, snares ,or melee buffs. In a good hard charging group though - we will as a team be better off if I focus on those things.

Especially at low levels, bard healing potential is peerless. A good lute and hymn of restoration is like giving the whole group an extra fungi. At high levels - 3 fungis with just 2 songs. Bards lack burst heal, but played well you can negate any and all healer downtime and let them just use the efficient stuff healing emergencies and only the tank infrequently.

[Sadiki]

Oh boy, this thread actually has a full page worth of discussion suggesting playing nothing but DoTs in groups.
Fairly n00b question but does Chant of Clarity's mana regen stack with Cantana's?
If you mean Chorus of Clarity, yes. It has no buff icon and merely gives a burst of mana whenever it hits. This makes it ideal to twist Cantana-Chorus-Chorus-Chorus in downtime if your healer is low on mana. However, the range on Chorus is rather small, and so it is usually fairly useless in combat unless you're fighting on top of your casters.. which is a wonderful way to get them hit every time they sit down between casts.

[Troxx]

I don't think anybody suggested playing nothing but dots. I suggested the exact opposite - simply pointing out that at 60 you can stack 72dps on dots alone. The point was that the bard doing their dots alone would be robbing the group of valuable input much more potent than the simple dps they might add from dots.

As for the other posters, I think their point is that bard dps is bad enough that in a strictly dps role they'd be better using their drums than meleeing - and they are right. 3 chants at 130 damage a tick is over 20 dps - better than bards are going to consistently melee for. Those chants last for 4 tics giving you time to work in 2 other support songs (regen/haste or regen/meleebuffs). I would still argue there are other more valuable songs to have loaded in your bar. Mine is already always full with the following in groups:

Regen primary
Snare/slow
Mez
Charm
Haste
Melee buff
Mana pulse

Those are always up with few exceptions - leaving room for just one other song.

At 60 that usually is the 1 minute slow with dot component and I frequently add unresistable resist debuff for harder content subbed in somewhere.

There's no room on my cast bar for single target chants.

Bards are mobile armored casters with terrible melee damage and very unique skills. We are the WD40 that makes the whole group run smoother by making others better and assisting or managing support tasks - our weapons in harder content aren't really relevant unless you have epic. The only exception is breath of harmony allowing us to access another 5th fairly decent song (not modded) to a standard 4 song twist.

[Pyrion]

There are scenarios when *just* playing dots is totally ok. If the group has for example already plenty of healing and a chanter and just lacks dps, then just playing dots maybe the best you can do.

Another example is when you duo with any class that likes to root/rot. A bard can be very valuable in such a duo as we do compete to have the best dots in game, and all of them don't use any mana... so you can pull the next mob without needing any rest. The other class would just need enough mana to root. Did that a few times, was very productive.

[Troxx]

Oh yeah. Bard + other root/rot caster duos are quite potent. Bard just dots and tosses regen song for nonstop killing.

[Darguth]

If you mean Chorus of Clarity, yes. It has no buff icon and merely gives a burst of mana whenever it hits. This makes it ideal to twist Cantana-Chorus-Chorus-Chorus in downtime if your healer is low on mana. However, the range on Chorus is rather small, and so it is usually fairly useless in combat unless you're fighting on top of your casters.. which is a wonderful way to get them hit every time they sit down between casts.

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know how Chorus of Clarity worked (my bard is only 18 and never played one on Live).

[mefdinkins]

Between fights the lute ALWAYS comes out. Cantana Nivs and a double mana pulse adds up. With a good lute that adds almost 45hp and 17 mana per tick (averaged over the 4 song twist) to the entire group - regen that stacks with all other gear and buffs. If the extra hp from Nivs (5 before string mod) isn't needed it's cantana plus mana pulses it averages out to around 30hp a tick with 19-20 mana a tick to the whole group.

I think lute is worth it for the HP alone but still, I thought lute didn't impact mana regen?

[RDawg816]

I think lute is worth it for the HP alone but still, I thought lute didn't impact mana regen?
It doesn't impact mana. You do 1 cantana and 2-3 pulses of straight mana.

[Troxx]

Lute amplifies the 12hp regen component of cantana (55) and Nivs 5hp component (forget the level). These stack and with maestro lute gives you over 40/tick.

The 12 mana regen component is not modified but does "stack" with the flat 7 mana per 3 sec cast of the mana pulse song. You can technically get 4 pulses to land between refresh of cantana giving you 36 (12x3) + 28 (7x4) for 64 mana per 18 seconds.

Cantana with lute and 4x pulse gives 21 mana and 29hp per tic averaged
Cantana and Nivs with lute and 3x pulse gives >40hp and 19 mana per tic averaged

Gypsy lute still lets you put out ~36hp and 25hp per tick

As it relates to this conversation - the healing potential of a bard alone demonstrates the potency of using your instruments more often. With breath of harmony click you can still keep up 17 a tic (both songs without mod) - so depending on your level and gear weapons use is still reasonable, just don't trick yourself into thinking you're putting out good damage. I've parsed myself many times and even at 60 it's not pretty.

Epic changes everything. 1.8 song mod while meleeing is fantastic and the proc haste for group is amazing.

For the lower level bards - don't be quick to adopt the lower level cantana too quickly. Level 6 hymn of restoration scales up a bit higher than even the 55 cantana. From levels 6 through 50 I'd argue that in all but a very few cases bards with one song and a 100p lute outheal every other class. We have no burst healing but I know I've almost put more than a few healers to sleep even in my 50s in KC because they didn't have to cast a heal in over a half hour. At best you can heal for the group exclusively, at worst you save your healer (especially useful for Druids healing) a ton of mana - more mana than you would have given them with lower level cantana.

Cantana of Soothing caps at 4hp/tic. It does give 5 mana a tic but if healer mana is what you're most worried about you would likely save them mana (a lot) in the long run by using hymn of restoration.

Sorry for any autocorrect spelling issues - on phone right now.

[Dreenk317]

Troxx is right. You can save your healers a lot of mana if all you do is twist regen songs. But you can also save them a lot of mana AND deal some damage if you use your weapons and know what songs to play.
Lvl 55 cantana does not require an instrument. You have AC, agility, and strength buff songs, as well as haste, slow, and snare, and resists. All these things will equal people doing more damage, taking less damage, and saving your healer mana also. While being a lot more fun.
This does not mean there aren't times when you should just twist regen though.

[Troxx]

Did anyone say you should just twist regen?

Bard melee dps is bad. The original question was when to consider dropping weapons. It depends on the group, the content, and the bottlenecks you're facing but the real answer is anywhere between level 6 and 60.

If the group would benefit more from your songs being amplified than your crappy melee dps - use instruments.

If your group is facerolling at full mana and health 24/7 ... feel free to add crappy dps.

If you have your epic, it doesn't matter.