Bard Song Changes

[azxten]

You can recast Bard mez over and over on caster mobs and nonstop interrupt them without resist. I remember this not being possible in classic and today I realized it's because there used to be a recast time on mez like 3-5 seconds or something to prevent exactly this.

[Lazortag]

this would be a pretty huge change, do you have a source to back it up?

[azxten]

I looked around for a second and didn't find anything. I know this isn't how it used to be though. Casters used to be a difficult fight in EQ but if you have a Bard in your group now (who knows about this) they're a joke.

They spend all their time trying to cast basically just to get mezzed so they mostly stand there getting beat to death while not casting a single spell and rarely meleeing.

It's obvious in my opinion this wouldn't be something the developers would have left in. All I have is my memories though unfortunately.

[john_savage1982]

i'm not complaining, i love being able to chain-mezz caster mobs

[Uthgaard]

this would be a pretty huge change, do you have a source to back it up?


Uthgaard, I have no problem believing you're correct, but that link also says that both spells have an equal resist modifier, when on p99 for the longest time only Chords of Dissonance has had such a modifier. Is this intended?


Neither of them have a resist modifier in the spells file you're currently using. This is the entire set of changes to those two songs in my file.

Made Chords of Dissonance resist mod 15, recast delay 12000
Made Denon`s Disruptive Discord resist mod 15, recast delay 12000

I could use some research about when the 12 second recast delays were removed from songs though, because at kunark launch, it was still implemented.

[Uthgaard]

I imagine a lot of bards are going to rage when this goes live and flood the bug forums with reasons why it shouldn't have happened. This isn't going to affect just two songs. Every bard song had a 12 second recast delay. Meanwhile, it's sitting here awaiting the evidence.

[Abysis]

Wait a second...whats going on?

[Lazortag]

It's weird because people on this forum have claimed to remember being able to spam Manasong in classic, so it couldn't have had a 12 second delay if that's true. Can anyone find any mention of this 12 second recast on the internet? It would only impair the functionality of a few songs significantly (mez, charm in some cases, manasong, etc.)

[svarien]

I can't speak for pre-kunark because i didn't start playing a bard before then but i know there was no delay after kunark. I spent quite a bit of time in seb playing the role of enchanter more times than not. There is no way that would have been possible with a recast time on mez song or anything else.

[Abysis]

If you put 12 sec recast on all songs you might as well delete bards as a playable class.

[Lazortag]

If you put 12 sec recast on all songs you might as well delete bards as a playable class.

It would only impair the functionality of a few songs significantly (mez, charm in some cases, manasong, etc.)

It would affect our ability to CC and to pump mana efficiently. That's pretty much it. I'd be disappointed, sure, but I'd rather someone find evidence (even if it's just anecdotal) of how things used to be, instead of complaining about an outcome that makes my class marginally worse without even positing that it's an un-classic change.

If you really think it makes Bards unplayable though, I wonder if you'll put your money where your mouth is ;)

[Lazortag]

I just scoured all of the patch history on alla from 1999-2005 and saw not one mention of Bard recast times being implemented or taken away. I'm not convinced that they ever existed, the evidence Uthgaard is using has been known to be a bit inaccurate regarding other things (as pointed out in some threads in the kunark bugs forums). The original poster can't provide any evidence other than what he remembers, yet others seem to remember differently. It would be good to get some more evidence from others in either direction still.

edit: if it is true that these recast timers were in place, how would that have affected Bards who just kept songs playing passively? Would the song stop and they'd have to recast, or would it simply recast 12 seconds later automatically?

[Lazortag]

http://web.archive.org/web/20000831201802/gameznet.com/eq/spells/bard.html

22- Alenias Disenchanting Melody - Unknown effect
Uses a stringed instrument, cannot be sung.
...

From August 2000.

Also, has this song been fixed to affect group members yet? It used to just say "blahblah is protected" or whatever.

[Uthgaard]

The spell file isn't inaccurate. It's one snapshot of a changing spell system.

If you don't remember the Jonthan's line being targettable buffs, you probably won't remember recast delays.

[astuce999]

maybe the OP was thinking of ancient mez?

I first read this thread hoping there was finally some progress on implementing the push component back into bard mezzes.... but alas.

I remember kiting crocs in oasis at lvl 12 in classic using selo's, bellow, bellow in a 3 song twist.

I remember people talking about how a 3 song twist was the maximum unless you had one of those rare DSL connection, then you could play 4.

I remember having to target myself to play jonthan's, and how it made the song useless.

cheers

[cvinion]

heres 2001

http://web.archive.org/web/20010421163029/www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=15

http://web.archive.org/web/20011121201235/eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=29

http://web.archive.org/web/20010630070911/www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=29

Not entirely 99 but still velious era.

From 2000, Kunark Era
http://web.archive.org/web/20001205213000/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=1057

http://web.archive.org/web/20010505180036/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/bard/spelldescriptions.asp?SpellID=17

http://web.archive.org/web/20020308201734/www.everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=199&mode=details&spname=Kelin%60s+Lucid+Lullaby&type=

http://web.archive.org/web/20020308225209/www.everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=4596&mode=details&spname=Crission%27s+Pixie+Strike&type=

And the Coup de Grace to stop bards from getting nerfed.


Quoted from 2000 post


Actually, this song is very useful. Bards can mez almost as well as enchanters with this at higher levels. I group with a 51 bard often in Karnor, and she is our mezer, and can handle up to 3 mobs at a time. It is not meant to do any dmg or anything of that sorts. How often it resists depends on your charisma. Your charisma should be at least 150, if it isn't then you are one messed up bard and need to get that up. The three main things bards need are charisma, ac, and dex in that order.

If the song had a 12 second recast then there would be no way to keep 3 mobs mezzed with the song duration.


Please don't nerf bards.

[Lazortag]

The post you mention is from 2001.

Still I have an extremely hard time believing that this was in place for a significant amount of time, considering not one site on the internet mentions something so obviously crippling for a bard's ability to mez. What is the amount of time the devs plan to keep this in place? I'm okay with keeping it in place a short time and taking it out promptly after to be in line with classic, but since there's so little evidence of this actually existing, it's also difficult to find evidence of this being taken out, so what you're asking us to provide evidence for is impossible.

[BobSmith]

The spell file isn't inaccurate. It's one snapshot of a changing spell system.

If you don't remember the Jonthan's line being targettable buffs, you probably won't remember recast delays.

What spell file are you looking at?

[BobSmith]

Here is some circumstantial evidence against a 12 second recast on all songs that dates from late 1999. Both snippets are taken from "newbie" guides, and explain how to twist songs, but neither mentions a 12 second recast, or any kind of recast delay.

Think about how you might explain twisting just two songs to a new bard. I would think that some mention of a recast would be critical.

Captured by the internet archive from "The Concert Hall" on "11/28/1999" (http://web.archive.org/web/19991128052939/www.attcanada.net/~reaper/nafai1.htm):
Also, learn to juggle early on and juggle your songs anytime you are in combat, even if one doesn’t have a huge effect—the practice will be invaluable. Juggling is the method of having the effects of two songs going at once. Song effects last a few seconds after you stop singing them, giving you time to fire another one off, stopping it after you see the effect start, going back to the original song, etc. This can be done with 2 songs reliably, and occasionally a third can be thrown in, although it is extremely rare for all three effects to be active at the same time.

Captured by the internet archive from "The Concert Hall" on "11/29/1999" (http://web.archive.org/web/19991129010026/www.attcanada.net/~reaper/cheryl.htm):

Twisting Your Songs

THIS SKILL IS ESSENTIAL. Twisting is a way to sing more than one song and get the affects of 2 to 3 songs at the same time. To do this simply sing a song until the affect takes hold, stop singing it and start another, (since most buffing songs have about a 5 second delay before the affect goes away you can sing another song, stop it and resing the last song before it goes away) thereby singing two songs at once.

I hope this guide has helped you, and remember you don't have to follow this guide exactly, this is just my advice on the best experience and loot for your newly born bard.

[BobSmith]

Here is more circumstantial evidence. This was captured on 10/5/1999 from "EQlizer" (http://web.archive.org/web/19991005233113/http://gameznet.com/eq/class/bard.html). The bard class guide has no mention of a recast delay on songs in the section that briefly explains twisting.

Before we delve into spells it's important to note the way bard spells work. Bard spells will continually sing once you select the spell. They will loop until you deselect the spell or begin singing another song. There are two tactics which should be noted for bard song singing.

The first is song stacking. Each song has a duration. This duration will remain in effect for a few seconds after you stop singing a song. With a little practice you can toggle between singing different songs and get multiple spell effects up at one time. It takes a little practice but it's an invaluable tactic at higher levels.

[BobSmith]

This was captured about a month prior to the Kunark release. It is a detailed guide about twisting that includes some partial screenshot. There is no mention of a recast delay on bard songs.

(http://web.archive.org/web/20000229235746/http://users.erols.com/gww6e/eq/HOWTO-twist-bard-songs.html)

[Ropethunder]

Just out of curiosity.. if there is a 12 second recast, how can one twist songs? :confused:

[BobSmith]

Just out of curiosity.. if there is a 12 second recast, how can one twist songs? :confused:

If the recast delay starts when you begin the song, you could still twist songs. The duration on most songs is 3 ticks. That means they last at least 12 seconds and up to 18 seconds depending on when you start singing the song.


Time Event
---- -----
00.0 TICK.
00.5
01.0
01.5
02.0 Begin Singing "A".
02.5
03.0
03.5
04.0
04.5
05.0 Song "A" takes effect.
05.5 Stop singing "A", start singing "B"
06.0 TICK. 2 ticks left on song "A".
06.5
07.0
07.5
08.0
08.5 Song "B" takes effect.
09.0 Stop singing "B", Start singing "C"
09.5
10.0
10.5
11.0
11.5
12.0 TICK. Song "C" takes effect. 1 tick left on "A", 2 left on "B" and "C".
12.5 Stop singing "C".
13.0
13.5
14.0 Recast delay is finished on song "A".
14.5 Start singing "A".
15.0
15.5
16.0
16.5
17.0 Song "A" takes effect.
17.5 Stop singing "A", start singing "B"
18.0 TICK. 2 ticks left on "A", 1 left on "B" and "C".
18.5
19.0
19.5

[Shrouded]

Just out of curiosity.. if there is a 12 second recast, how can one twist songs? :confused:

There was no recast delay that was applied to all songs. There were a couple of songs that had recast delays, though, to avoid them being chained for damage purposes (the one I remember is DDD, but I think one of the later AoE DD spells had a recast delay, too -- I'm not sure on the era this was from, though).

Also, Chords of Dissonance did not have a recast delay.

[Uthgaard]

I'm not going to add the recast delays to the songs that didn't continue to have them.

Main changes will be:

Disenchanting Melody will require a lute
Kelin's lucid lullaby becoming a 1 tick pbaoe mez
Jonthan's line after the first are becoming targettable and regaining the rune component
Charms are going to 2 ticks
Level caps coming off of mezzes and lulls
Chorus of Clarity shouldn't display a buff icon
Caps coming off of effect scaling

[Lazortag]

I'm not going to add the recast delays to the songs that didn't continue to have them.

Main changes will be:
...
Kelin's lucid lullaby becoming a 1 tick pbaoe mez
...

Woah. Wasn't this taken out before kunark? I heard that Bards were pretty crazy when this was possible.
edit: this seems to support uthgaard's post: http://www.bardsguild.com/everquest/spellsongs.htm
edit: also just curious, what songs will get a recast delay?

[BobSmith]

Woah. Wasn't this taken out before kunark? I heard that Bards were pretty crazy when this was possible.
edit: this seems to support uthgaard's post: http://www.bardsguild.com/everquest/spellsongs.htm
edit: also just curious, what songs will get a recast delay?

According to the spell history at Lucy, "Kelin's Lucid Lullaby" remained a PBAoE mez until 9/4/2002:

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=724&source=Live

[svarien]

If i'm not mistaken it had a knockback feature as well which made it useless in a tight dungeon where it would get knocked into another camp. As for other changes i think most of these are getting reverted back from one of the great bard revamps that people waited so long for. Really why change it? To be more classic? Just because things were like this out of the box doesn't make them right. If that is the reasoning behind it though i have a few more changes i would like to see in the works.

Take out customizable ui. It should be one small square with most of the screen covered by chat and buttons and pictures. That one small screen needs to be completely covered when you open your spell book so that you can't see anything.

Oh yeah to med you have to open your spell book. "How will i see mobs coming?" you ask. You will know when you get hit and you stand up. Sounds fun huh.

If you don't have room for something it shouldn't go to your cursor. It needs to fall on the ground. Oh and NPCs pick things up when they walk by.

If you hit combine on a crafting tool and whatever is in it doesn't make anything.....it all goes away and says those don't combine to make anything. So if you hit combine on a large sewing kit without meaning to that you were carrying all your extra weapons in.....they are gone now.

Keeping in line with that if you give something to a npc it doesn't want it takes it anyway. Wrong items for that quest.....well doesn't matter it will take them anyway.

Yes all those were elements of the original eq i remember. Where are they now? That's right the trashcan where they belong. Some points of the game were changed for a reason. Some bard songs were one of those changes. I don't know why i am ranting anyway it doesn't matter what you do short of taking songs away bards will figure out a way. We always do that is why we are the swiss army knife of characters. Then people will say OMG look what bards can do i can't do that they are too OP nerf them. Gotta love it.

[Uthgaard]

Most of those are improvements.

The server is a work in progress, and we're limited to what we can do without modifying the client.

The goal is to emulate classic everquest. If that upsets you, this may not be the server for you.

Rage all you want. I didn't ask your opinion.