Possibly the best mmo. Ramble about gathering

[A1rh3ad]

I must say for such simplistic combat and camping this has to be the most fun I have ever had in an mmo. At first I felt as if it was missing something, gathering. I missed gathering herbs growing on the ground or pickaxing nodes I saw along the way. Then it hit me. The materials that sell well in EC chat come from green mobs scattered about. Wow, green mobs are the gathering nodes! This took my enjoyment of the game to a new level. I can just kite a bunch of the green con guys and wack at them with a stick. It gives me something to do besides grinding enemies for xp and I'm making money doing it. An hour of grinding gives me enough money to pay for ports around the world. If I just kill them when I see them I dont need to grind. Ive been hauling my bags of materials to the tunnel and making good lowbie money to help me get some starter cash. Every day seems like a new adventure here. This game is really heavy with meta, which I think is part of the reason it is so charming. Its like a world that the players have built a game around.

[Korrupt]

A1rh3ad

[Evia]

I think EQ is the greatest mmo ever as well. For me though, it's because it's the only virtual world that feels like it's actually alive. Unlike WOW and other mmo's where I totally still feel like i'm playing a game, eq makes me feel as though im in a different world. Big difference in the enjoyment factor. The faction system helps this immensely, as does the community. I'm also big on the spell system. I've been playing EQ off and on for nearly 16 years and I still haven't seen or experienced everything. That's some good content right there in a day and age where people burn through brand new video game content in hours/days. I just wish someone would take the original EQ model and update the graphics and nothing else. That'd be pure gold imho.

[Swish]

http://i.imgur.com/M7zJXKL.jpg

[Baler]

http://i.imgur.com/aIfa52e.jpg

[A1rh3ad]

I think EQ is the greatest mmo ever as well. For me though, it's because it's the only virtual world that feels like it's actually alive. Unlike WOW and other mmo's where I totally still feel like i'm playing a game, eq makes me feel as though im in a different world. Big difference in the enjoyment factor. The faction system helps this immensely, as does the community. I'm also big on the spell system. I've been playing EQ off and on for nearly 16 years and I still haven't seen or experienced everything. That's some good content right there in a day and age where people burn through brand new video game content in hours/days. I just wish someone would take the original EQ model and update the graphics and nothing else. That'd be pure gold imho.

Yeah the meta is strong with this game

[HallyVee]

Yeah the meta is strong with this game

Im pretty sure that isnt what meta means. In my experience meta is used to refer to things which affect gameplay yet dont happen inside the game; player politics and forum tactics, and theorycrafting.

Anywho, i agree with everything else, definitely my mmo for world feel. The action games are fine for a stint but this is home.

As to gathering, im fine with mobs being nodes or with world spawns. Although i do object to breaking 20 levels of the money game in one hour of gathering but this is common with player economies.

[VincentVolaju]

http://i.imgur.com/aIfa52e.jpg

God I miss camping moonglow gate or Brit GY. Making my runs through lich lords to jump the nerds with 4-5 vanq qstaffs on them and 120 of each reg. Best game ever

[tristantio]

There are also rare ground spawns in EQ, and you could forage for gathering too!

[A1rh3ad]

Im pretty sure that isnt what meta means. In my experience meta is used to refer to things which affect gameplay yet dont happen inside the game; player politics and forum tactics, and theorycrafting.

Anywho, i agree with everything else, definitely my mmo for world feel. The action games are fine for a stint but this is home.

As to gathering, im fine with mobs being nodes or with world spawns. Although i do object to breaking 20 levels of the money game in one hour of gathering but this is common with player economies.

Meta meaning the community forming around the game. Things like EC tunnel is meta or raid rotations.

[fadetree]

Well, sort of. The technical meaning of meta is that is "one level up" in abstraction. So you have a game, and it has rules. Do the rules have rules? Yes, a rule about a rule (for instance, saying that 'all game rules should be fair') is a meta-rule. It's a rule about rules. Or take mathematics...you can do math with actual numbers, but you can also do math about math. for instance, there are branches of number theory that are essentially math about math...that's meta-math. Data about data is meta-data. Anything that references itself but from a higher, wider perspective is meta.
I wouldn't say that a community forming around a game is meta, unless the community was a game too. Same with EC tunnel, I wouldn't call that meta...it's a game WITHIN a game but that doesn't make it meta. It if were a game ABOUT a game then yeah.

[A1rh3ad]

Well, sort of. The technical meaning of meta is that is "one level up" in abstraction. So you have a game, and it has rules. Do the rules have rules? Yes, a rule about a rule (for instance, saying that 'all game rules should be fair') is a meta-rule. It's a rule about rules. Or take mathematics...you can do math with actual numbers, but you can also do math about math. for instance, there are branches of number theory that are essentially math about math...that's meta-math. Data about data is meta-data. Anything that references itself but from a higher, wider perspective is meta.
I wouldn't say that a community forming around a game is meta, unless the community was a game too. Same with EC tunnel, I wouldn't call that meta...it's a game WITHIN a game but that doesn't make it meta. It if were a game ABOUT a game then yeah.


Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

The fact that people have set EC tunnel as a trading spot is meta. People designate and name camping spots where they pull npcs to in order for the group to kill. This is also meta. People use forums and message boards for permission to raid or camp npcs. This is another form of meta.

[A1rh3ad]

Sandbox type games like this are majority meta. Anything that comes out of the players imagination and not the game itself is meta. It could be something as simple as the ruins in FoB being the binding spot for people who are kos with iksar. Someone started that tradition, not the game devs.

[Dreenk317]

Sandbox type games like this are majority meta. Anything that comes out of the players imagination and not the game itself is meta. It could be something as simple as the ruins in FoB being the binding spot for people who are kos with iksar. Someone started that tradition, not the game devs.

Actually, it is the devs who started this, seeing as they are the ones who coded it to be a melee bind point. That being said this game is ripe with "meta gaming". And I agree, it is one of the things that has kept it viable, and great.

And....

You two are using two different definitions of "meta". Airhead is using the more gamer oriented definition. The other is the more literal, websters-esque definition.

[Ravager]

This is meta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDXgG29tB3U

[A1rh3ad]

This is meta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDXgG29tB3U

Yeah in filmography that is also meta. Like how Tim Allan has a TV show on a TV show. Meta has a very non specific definition and can apply to different types of meta.

[Jimjam]

I'm not sure if EC tunnel is truly meta;

It's called the common lands, possibly because it is shared among races and accessible to most.

There is a supply vendor that caters to all races with nearby towns that service most alignments.

There are fires and torches making it cosy day or night.

Trade caravans and the like surround the area.

The fact it is the perfect storm for a trade centre is not an accident. It is intentional design the devs tried to encourage.

[Rygar]

How is your girl liking the game?

[fadetree]

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

The fact that people have set EC tunnel as a trading spot is meta. People designate and name camping spots where they pull npcs to in order for the group to kill. This is also meta. People use forums and message boards for permission to raid or camp npcs. This is another form of meta.

I know what you mean, but I don't agree. Nothing that you cite meets the technical definition of meta. It's come to be used for all the things you mention, but that's not the original meaning. Referring to things 'outside' the game is not meta unless they also form a game that is about EQ. You are missing the self-referencing required for meta. A Game about games is a metagame, Data about data is metadata. Rules about rules are metarules. Deciding to put trading in EC is not meta, it's just a decision. But whatever, it looks like commonly meta is being used for just being 'about' something rather than being the 'same exact thing, one level up'.

[Kaedain]

this is kinda like music nerds discussion genres of music.. totally not post punk revival man

[A1rh3ad]

Ugh whatever. Metagaming is just figuring out the best way to do something outside of what they intended. Like how we all know that grinding a mob will drop something so we figure out a way to kill it most efficiency or how to make a fair system where guilds can take turns. Or what areas have the best xp so we camp it and name places ourselves as a reference despite the lacation not having a name. Ex pillar 1 2 and 3 in oasis. Maybe EC tunnel isnt a great example. I was thinking along the lines that the area was easy to get to so it became the best way to sell items and everyone was doing it strategically. The playerbase has fond the best way to do things in ways that the original devs probably never intended thus creating a player run system within the game.

[maskedmelon]

Other mmos should take note of This superior implementation.

a vein of iron or is ahead and to your left.

a vein of iron ore is ahead and to your left.

a vein of iron ore is straight ahead.

You apprehend a vein of iron ore!

You try to strike a vein of iron or, but miss!!

You strike a vein of iron ore for (6) points of extraction!!

You are blasted with rubble from a vein of iron ore for (17) points of damage!!

You are blinded.

You try to strike a vein of iron ore, but miss!!

You strike a vein of iron ore for (0) points of extraction!!

Your polished oak pickax slips from your hands.

Your feet are caught among rubble. You cannot move.

You stumble foreword. You have fallen!!

You have fallen for (327488) points of damage!!

You have fallen to your death!!

Returning to bind point.
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...

[fadetree]

Ugh whatever. Metagaming is just figuring out the best way to do something outside of what they intended. Like how we all know that grinding a mob will drop something so we figure out a way to kill it most efficiency or how to make a fair system where guilds can take turns. Or what areas have the best xp so we camp it and name places ourselves as a reference despite the lacation not having a name. Ex pillar 1 2 and 3 in oasis. Maybe EC tunnel isnt a great example. I was thinking along the lines that the area was easy to get to so it became the best way to sell items and everyone was doing it strategically. The playerbase has fond the best way to do things in ways that the original devs probably never intended thus creating a player run system within the game.

Yeah, I know I'm word-nerding out. Just hearing that meta term everywhere nowadays and something is wrong on the internets. In fact, Wikipedia says I am wrong and you are exactly right, but I still deny. FIGHT THE POWER. Apart from the term, I know what you mean and I agree. I would maybe call it 'emergent gameplay', meaning things that were not foreseen but emerge from an open ruleset in ways that surprise everyone. Like FD pulling, etc. It's an interesting feature of the EQ ruleset, how open it is, meaning there was a lot that was left uncontrolled and unexplained. It's a big part of what makes the game so great and lasting.

[A1rh3ad]

Yeah, I know I'm word-nerding out. Just hearing that meta term everywhere nowadays and something is wrong on the internets. In fact, Wikipedia says I am wrong and you are exactly right, but I still deny. FIGHT THE POWER. Apart from the term, I know what you mean and I agree. I would maybe call it 'emergent gameplay', meaning things that were not foreseen but emerge from an open ruleset in ways that surprise everyone. Like FD pulling, etc. It's an interesting feature of the EQ ruleset, how open it is, meaning there was a lot that was left uncontrolled and unexplained. It's a big part of what makes the game so great and lasting.

Understandable. The problem is you have many different platforms in which the term can be used. I believe examples of meta like in D&D is when we break character and ask another player or DM if grinding kobolds would offer sufficient exp. Well, d&d is a hard example because for the most part it is an rpg and by nature the majority of good ones at least are meta. Even grinding can be referred to as meta if you think about it.

In filmography meta can refer to a show within a show, or the show referencing itself. Maybe breaking the "4th wall" rule is meta but I'm not too sure on that.

Games like Magic the gathering, meta is building your deck in a way where you have a chance of combining the effects of different cards or having the foresight to know the opponents deck and prepare yourself accordingly. Also distracting him or her with boasts or bluffs is meta. Once again thats another hard one because a lot of the game is meta built areound a simple card game

Procedurally generated games such as rogue or diablo where you know a dungeon level is going to contain something you need because it has generated items on that level which are usually spawned together. Or knowing the layout because a chunk has loaded that always contains the same rooms. Example of loot finding would be mephisto runs. I doubt blizzard north intended people to equip their sorcs with nothing but rags and MF gear to run mephisto 24/7 but the loot finding centers around it. At least from the last time I played
WTS WTB WTT spamming I believe came from muds. We used to do it not knowing who started it in the first place.

Being a word nerd isnt a bad thing. In the end words are concepts that need to be defined in order to have a successful conversation.

[A1rh3ad]

Other mmos should take note of This superior implementation.

a vein of iron or is ahead and to your left.

a vein of iron ore is ahead and to your left.

a vein of iron ore is straight ahead.

You apprehend a vein of iron ore!

You try to strike a vein of iron or, but miss!!

You strike a vein of iron ore for (6) points of extraction!!

You are blasted with rubble from a vein of iron ore for (17) points of damage!!

You are blinded.

You try to strike a vein of iron ore, but miss!!

You strike a vein of iron ore for (0) points of extraction!!

Your polished oak pickax slips from your hands.

Your feet are caught among rubble. You cannot move.

You stumble foreword. You have fallen!!

You have fallen for (327488) points of damage!!

You have fallen to your death!!

Returning to bind point.
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...

Lol yeah. EQ is so hardcore that even your gathering nodes fight back.

[fadetree]

Understandable. The problem is you have many different platforms in which the term can be used. I believe examples of meta like in D&D is when we break character and ask another player or DM if grinding kobolds would offer sufficient exp. Well, d&d is a hard example because for the most part it is an rpg and by nature the majority of good ones at least are meta. Even grinding can be referred to as meta if you think about it.

In filmography meta can refer to a show within a show, or the show referencing itself. Maybe breaking the "4th wall" rule is meta but I'm not too sure on that.

Games like Magic the gathering, meta is building your deck in a way where you have a chance of combining the effects of different cards or having the foresight to know the opponents deck and prepare yourself accordingly. Also distracting him or her with boasts or bluffs is meta. Once again thats another hard one because a lot of the game is meta built areound a simple card game

Procedurally generated games such as rogue or diablo where you know a dungeon level is going to contain something you need because it has generated items on that level which are usually spawned together. Or knowing the layout because a chunk has loaded that always contains the same rooms. Example of loot finding would be mephisto runs. I doubt blizzard north intended people to equip their sorcs with nothing but rags and MF gear to run mephisto 24/7 but the loot finding centers around it. At least from the last time I played
WTS WTB WTT spamming I believe came from muds. We used to do it not knowing who started it in the first place.

Being a word nerd isnt a bad thing. In the end words are concepts that need to be defined in order to have a successful conversation.

Yeah the 'show within a show' is really the only thing that would meet my definition of meta. The rest are just 'being smart' and using knowledge and the game rules in an advantageous way. Nothing meta about that in my mind but yeah. EQ has a lot of MUD roots, terms like "MOB" (mobiles), etc., and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the trading acronyms came out of that too.

[maskedmelon]

What about cyber? Meta, or Emergent Gameplay? How does a cam stream alter its position within the paradigm? What about streaming sans webcam?

What about playing dice in game, or racing other players to see who can get to a dragon the fastest?

Need moar info before these words can be properly incorporated into my lexicon.

[Lhancelot]

What about cyber? Meta, or Emergent Gameplay? How does a cam stream alter its position within the paradigm? What about streaming sans webcam?

What about playing dice in game, or racing other players to see who can get to a dragon the fastest?

Need moar info before these words can be properly incorporated into my lexicon.

Are you pushing the level of this conversation above everyone's heads inadvertently or are you just showing off, Melons? :p

[xKoopa]

Yeah the 'show within a show' is really the only thing that would meet my definition of meta. The rest are just 'being smart' and using knowledge and the game rules in an advantageous way. Nothing meta about that in my mind but yeah. EQ has a lot of MUD roots, terms like "MOB" (mobiles), etc., and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the trading acronyms came out of that too.

I thought mob was "monster or boss"

Are you telling me ive been wrong all these years? :/

[fadetree]

What about cyber? Meta, or Emergent Gameplay? How does a cam stream alter its position within the paradigm? What about streaming sans webcam?

What about playing dice in game, or racing other players to see who can get to a dragon the fastest?

Need moar info before these words can be properly incorporated into my lexicon.

My opinions:

Cyber would be emergent gameplay, because it is about sex, not EQ, and uses the game mechanics itself (chat, lame emotes, removal of gear, tail flashing, etc).

I don't understand how the cam questions relate to the subject exactly, but its part of game code itself and as such I wouldn't think it could be classified as meta. Not so sure about streaming...streaming a stream would definitely be a meta-stream, but just regular streaming is just a way to view.

Playing dice in game is definitely a game within a game, but if you're using the /rand code it's just emergent gameplay. If you are privately rolling dice and telling others via chat then they or you or both are just being silly.

Racing other players is within the game and would be emergent gameplay.

[fadetree]

I thought mob was "monster or boss"

Are you telling me ive been wrong all these years? :/

Yep, you've been wrong. Stands for MOBile. Came from very early MUD type games, where originally monsters were more or less like part of the room description, like furniture or something. Having one move around and be it's own thing was a real advance back in the day.

[Lhancelot]

My opinions:

Cyber would be emergent gameplay, because it is about sex, not EQ, and uses the game mechanics itself (chat, lame emotes, removal of gear, tail flashing, etc).

I don't understand how the cam questions relate to the subject exactly, but its part of game code itself and as such I wouldn't think it could be classified as meta. Not so sure about streaming...streaming a stream would definitely be a meta-stream, but just regular streaming is just a way to view.

Playing dice in game is definitely a game within a game, but if you're using the /rand code it's just emergent gameplay. If you are privately rolling dice and telling others via chat then they or you or both are just being silly.

Racing other players is within the game and would be emergent gameplay.

rofl at the explanation behind cyber, haha.

I appreciate the response to what MM wrote also. I get lost half the time trying to understand MM, I need someone like you to decipher it for me, into layman's terms. :D

[maskedmelon]

Are you pushing the level of this conversation above everyone's heads inadvertently or are you just showing off, Melons? :p

Just curious ^^

I thought mob was "monster or boss"

Are you telling me ive been wrong all these years? :/

You have been wrong all these years.

hands xKoopa a tissue

[maskedmelon]

My opinions:

Cyber would be emergent gameplay, because it is about sex, not EQ, and uses the game mechanics itself (chat, lame emotes, removal of gear, tail flashing, etc).

I don't understand how the cam questions relate to the subject exactly, but its part of game code itself and as such I wouldn't think it could be classified as meta. Not so sure about streaming...streaming a stream would definitely be a meta-stream, but just regular streaming is just a way to view.

Playing dice in game is definitely a game within a game, but if you're using the /rand code it's just emergent gameplay. If you are privately rolling dice and telling others via chat then they or you or both are just being silly.

Racing other players is within the game and would be emergent gameplay.

Well, emergent play does sound so much more engaging than meta. Meta feels overly judegemental, like it carries deragotory connotations, like inferior or something, ya know? What activities would you consider meta? Is FQ meta? Seems too unrelated to be meta. How about leaderboard competition?

What if form a group and we meet up at the Wafarer's Roost for some fun :3 We all decide to play monopoly and take turns /randoming and declaring our moves (placing three houses on Parkplace for example) and update our boards at home accordingly. Is that meta? Or does it have to be more about EQ, like maybe magelo gearing competition?

[A1rh3ad]

Yep, you've been wrong. Stands for MOBile. Came from very early MUD type games, where originally monsters were more or less like part of the room description, like furniture or something. Having one move around and be it's own thing was a real advance back in the day.

I second this. It was short for mobile. They were npcs that moved from room to room (a room is a space on the grid, it doesnt have to be a physical room)

[A1rh3ad]

The consider system, global ticks, holy trinity, dot... everything here comes from muds. They were so similar that there was a lawsuit between sony and the original creators. Well one of them. See telnet MUD was designed to be an open platform for creative minds to be able to DM over large distances. It was distributed freely. One of the creators decided to sue sony for stealing assets but another person ownes the majority of the IP. He dropped the lawsuit saying that it was designed as an open platform for all to use. At least that is how I heard it. You never can really trust information back in the dark ages when BBS boards were still a thing.

[fadetree]

Well, emergent play does sound so much more engaging than meta. Meta feels overly judegemental, like it carries deragotory connotations, like inferior or something, ya know? What activities would you consider meta? Is FQ meta? Seems too unrelated to be meta. How about leaderboard competition?

What if form a group and we meet up at the Wafarer's Roost for some fun :3 We all decide to play monopoly and take turns /randoming and declaring our moves (placing three houses on Parkplace for example) and update our boards at home accordingly. Is that meta? Or does it have to be more about EQ, like maybe magelo gearing competition?

The point (my point, anyway) about meta is that it means a self-reference, one level up. Data about data is metadata. Rules about rules are metarules. A language grammar about grammar rules is a metagrammar. A program that writes programs is a metaprogram (those exist). The self-reference is key, not just that it's outside of or parallel to something else. Metagaming would be playing a game about playing games, I suppose, but not playing some other game IN a game.

But, like I said, I guess it's come to be used to fill a void as to what to call stuff like playing some other game within a game, talking about a game, using advanced knowledge of a game to play better, etc. We didn't really have non-awkward phrase, so 'meta' got tagged from what I claim is a misunderstanding. So be it, language changes all the time from stuff like that.

Emergent describes something that comes out unexpectedly from a simple ruleset. Remember conway's game of life? It generated expanding patterns of colored pixels that had all kinds of different shapes and forms from a VERY simple ruleset written in like 10 lines of BASIC code. Or take ants, they are very simple, they just follow smell trails around and each ant doesn't actually know jack about what the hive is doing, but somehow all their individual actions add up to behavior that institutes and protects a complex hive. That's emergence, unexpected complexity out of apparent simplicity.

[maskedmelon]

A program that writes programs is a metaprogram (those exist).

I think this is easily the most terrifying thing to come from our meta exchange ^.~v

[fadetree]

hah yeah, it is kind of scary. I for one welcome our robot overlords!

[A1rh3ad]

What is really scary is the library of babbel. If you think about it it could one day write a super virus or AI by accident XD

[korwl]

Well, sort of. The technical meaning of meta is that is "one level up" in abstraction. So you have a game, and it has rules. Do the rules have rules? Yes, a rule about a rule (for instance, saying that 'all game rules should be fair') is a meta-rule. It's a rule about rules. Or take mathematics...you can do math with actual numbers, but you can also do math about math. for instance, there are branches of number theory that are essentially math about math...that's meta-math. Data about data is meta-data. Anything that references itself but from a higher, wider perspective is meta.
I wouldn't say that a community forming around a game is meta, unless the community was a game too. Same with EC tunnel, I wouldn't call that meta...it's a game WITHIN a game but that doesn't make it meta. It if were a game ABOUT a game then yeah.

I just wanted to drop in to say that while this was a quality post yesterday, it remains a quality post today :D