Shaman duo partner questions...

[Fishbait]

So, i'm currently a 54 shaman and my buddy I duo with is currently a 53 monk.

The end game plan is to get to 57+ then start hitting higher value cash camps duo to start making money to buy Epic MQ's/etc.

But...the monk for him is getting quite stale, the upside is that he also already has a 55 Necro which I recently found to be an amazing duo partner for xp with that is nearly as good or equal to then a monk.

I guess my question basically boils down to, will a Shm/Nec duo be able to do all the cash camps(or most of them) that a Shm/Mnk could do?

*Note: I know he should play what he likes more...but with his monk at 53, he'd tough it out to 57+ just as a cash camp toon then switch to necro. But if the necro can do the camps with the shaman anyways, then he'd just switch now.

Edit: Also any information on duo'ing in Velious for easier dragons and the like would be great too!

[RDawg816]

Necro is a great partner for a shaman. They can kill a lot easily. The part you have to think about is what camps you want to duo. Monk can pull, tank and dps better. If you want to do thinks like Velks, Guk, HS, etc a necro would be great. If you're wanting something that would require a monk though.... :D

[Vexenu]

If you really just want to duo cash camps the Necro might actually be a better choice than the Monk if you stick to Seb/HS. Undead charm puts Necro ahead of a Monk when you can use it. Monk comes out ahead otherwise. So basically...it's a question of what camps you want to go after. If he really enjoys the Necro that much more than the Monk then screw it, just have him play the Necro. Shm/Nec is hardly a weak duo by any means, it just thrives in a more limited niche than Shm/Monk.

[Darkatar]

Nec/Sham is super strong for sure, the biggest thing you're going to "Lose" next to a monk partner, is that a monk is by far superior when it comes to splitting and tanking mobs.

You're going to gain a significant amount of DPS if the necro is charming, (malosini helps, bonus!) otherwise, it will still probably be par for the course with a sham tank/rogue pet.

Something the necro brings that the monk lacks however, is necro heals. Necro healing pre-torpor is huge. and it can stack with torpor too. Having a snare available for fleeing mobs can be super important in some locations as well.

As a shaman, you can also regen the necro, which just pumps up their already lightning fast mana regen, since they'll need to lifetap less.

The only thing you wont be able to do/have a much harder time with as necro/sham that you can with a monk/sham, is tackling unslowable/magic immune mobs. Which is a very rare thing to encounter outside of super unique mobs (stone spider, solb) or raidlike mobs, which is a super minor impact, if any.

[Raev]

With the junk gear that you probably have, the Necro will be considerably stronger. At the HOT/epic/Sky level of gear the Monk is mildly better. With NTOV gear and a primal the Monk is much better.

[Fishbait]

Thanks for the info all, considering everything we went with the shm/nec and it's definitely been great and faster/more synergy all around so far.

End game raiding isn't really on our radar anytime soon so definitely seems like the necro will offer more power immediately as a duo, just need to get keyed for hs/seb and start poking around.

[EdTuBrutus]

Thanks for the info all, considering everything we went with the shm/nec and it's definitely been great and faster/more synergy all around so far.

End game raiding isn't really on our radar anytime soon so definitely seems like the necro will offer more power immediately as a duo, just need to get keyed for hs/seb and start poking around.

The only time NEC/SHM offers more power than MNK/SHM is when there is absolutely no access, at all, to decent gear. And the thing is, for a MNK in this era, decent gear is very, very cheap. There is lots of very very good AC gear for a MNK costs 50pp to 100pp a piece, with a haste item only costing 2k and decent weapons well under 1k a piece, there is just no way that a NEC can complete.

I wonder if the Monk has loads of stats on their gear instead of AC/HP and he's feeling stale because his gearing choices are making him weak. Always remember, stats do not work in any meaningful way in EQ.

[Vexenu]

The only time NEC/SHM offers more power than MNK/SHM is when there is absolutely no access, at all, to decent gear. And the thing is, for a MNK in this era, decent gear is very, very cheap. There is lots of very very good AC gear for a MNK costs 50pp to 100pp a piece, with a haste item only costing 2k and decent weapons well under 1k a piece, there is just no way that a NEC can complete.

I wonder if the Monk has loads of stats on their gear instead of AC/HP and he's feeling stale because his gearing choices are making him weak. Always remember, stats do not work in any meaningful way in EQ.

Most of the highly available and cheap Monk gear is Kunark or Classic era (or equivalent, i.e. SCHW). The stuff that really puts Monks on a rocket is all high-end Velious stuff, most of which requires full groups or outright raids. OP said he and his friend aren't interested in raiding so most of the nice Velious gear isn't in the picture.

So the question is mid-50's average geared Necro vs. mid 50's average geared Monk. If I wanted to cash camp duo Seb or HS (two of the best spots for such an endeavor) I'd take the Necro every time. A Necro charm pet is going to blow away an average mid-50s Monk in both tanking and DPS. And that's not even factoring in the plethora of other tricks the Necro brings to the table. Anywhere the Necro can charm, Necro/Shaman becomes just a moderately downgraded version of Enchanter/Shaman, which is pretty much the most powerful duo in in the game.

Monk/Shaman is the generically correct answer to this question, but given the OP's specific parameters he made the correct call to go with the Necro.

[Raev]

The only time NEC/SHM offers more power than MNK/SHM is when there is absolutely no access, at all, to decent gear. And the thing is, for a MNK in this era, decent gear is very, very cheap. There is lots of very very good AC gear for a MNK costs 50pp to 100pp a piece, with a haste item only costing 2k and decent weapons well under 1k a piece, there is just no way that a NEC can complete.

I think you are underestimating Necromancers quite a bit here. A Necromancer in rags can stack three low resist dots for 350 hp/tick. Add in a pet and some poison/disease dots or lifetaps here and there and they can easily sustain 100+ dps for several minutes. Defensively, don't underestimate 125 hp/tick heals forever, which will make up a large part of the level difference between the monk and the spectre. The only loss will be in pulling, where sneak, instant FD, and improved durability will always give the monk an edge. But Necromancers can hack it decently there as well with a bag full of stalking probes.

Sure, a raid monk is going to smoke any Necromancer regardless of gear. Defensively such monks with 5000HP/1400AC are as tough as Warriors, and offensively they put out ~100 dps in Sebilis with NTOV weapons and Avatar. But a leveling monk with cheap EC gear that gives them 3500 HP and 1K AC raid buffed? And maybe 50 dps? I'm just not seeing it.

[Fishbait]

Just to throw some information out there, the shm(me), is only wearing a fungi as my only notable item, most other pieces are Jaundiced for the flat AC and +4 to +6 wis pieces filling in other slots. The monk is basic EC geared, fbss, AC/SS dual combo, Black Panther filling in most slots, along with other ac/str items(Spider fur cloak, etc).

One immediate bonus I can tell is in the shm/nec duo is, not having my epic isn't hurting us as it doesn't stack with splurt, according to my wiki research, so i'm taking that with a grain of salt.

That free missing epic DPS on every single pull with a monk/shm duo seemed like a pretty heavy weight to me and with the reaaaaally high cost of the Child's Tear MQ now(wish I bought it when it was 28k or whatever) means i'm saving all funds for an immediate Torpor instead which realistically isn't too far off, with fungi as collateral and current funds and 5 levels to go, should be memorizing Torpor into the spell book as soon as I ding 60.

The biggest boon to me so far, as Raev pointed out, has been Shadowbond's 125 hp/tick, it's basically Torpor light and the Nec can keep it running which leaves me free for slow pulling and rolling buffs/regrowth without ever having mana issues, which to be fair, when the monk pulled I didn't really have mana issues either as I was basically med'ing the entire time and canni dancing(which I despise, why won't server ticks synchronize properly!!!!! /endrant).

All in all, glad we went with the Nec/shm duo and we are killing at a noticeably quicker rate. And if we ever do enter the raid scene won't be hard to catch the monk up to par, at least right now the nec is upfront'ing more power and synergy for the duo.

[RDawg816]

One immediate bonus I can tell is in the shm/nec duo is, not having my epic isn't hurting us as it doesn't stack with splurt, according to my wiki research, so i'm taking that with a grain of salt.
The wiki is right in this regard.

Do you have a GCD item? Instead of canni dancing, you can just canni spam with the GCD and not worry about the server ticks. Canni is your main source of mana regen, and having the necro heal (in addition to your regen) is not that big of a deal to miss out on med-ticks.

Keeping regen on him allows him to heal you regularly and you will both have ample mana pretty much all the time. Grouping with a competent necro makes being a shaman even better...

[Fishbait]

Oh yes, have the grim aura earring which is a lifesaver duo'ing with the Necro as I don't have too much time to sit and a lot of my mana regen comes straight from canni spam.

With the monk though, keeping buffs/haste/regrowth/slows rolling, missing med ticks made a noticeable difference in my mana upkeep and I would need to properly canni dance to keep non-stop pulls going. It would make my brain melt watching the server trying to synchronize with the client and seeing it go up and down up to 3 or 4 times in a single tick when it gets really bad but I mostly have the knack of it now, just takes a tick or two to find the sweet spot.

[EdTuBrutus]

I think you are underestimating Necromancers quite a bit here. A Necromancer in rags can stack three low resist dots for 350 hp/tick. Add in a pet and some poison/disease dots or lifetaps here and there and they can easily sustain 100+ dps for several minutes.

How much mana is that? Thats the key. The Monk does not use mana. The Necro does and even with Lich he cannot compete with a Monk for a "next" rotation.

[Raev]

Well, for taking out bosses the burst damage is more important. But necros are pretty good at sustained damage too. Splurt and Pyrocruor (5-6:1 and -100 resist checks) are basically the equivalent of the Wizard bane nukes in terms of efficiency; the 'only' problems are the duration and stacking issues. It's only when Necros are in full groups and have to use the Ignite Bones line that (2:1 and normal resist check) that their efficiency falls off.

It's hard to compare monk and necro dps in a duo as both will be pulling/ccing/healing etc, but as a back of the envelope estimate 50 mana per tick with Demi Lich * 5:1 efficiency is 40+ dps without even counting the pet which is probably another 40+.

But this is all theorycrafting. As a shaman yourself, why don't you duo with a necro a few times and try it?

[Fishbait]

Kind of a side question here...

Are there any mobs in the 48-50 range to solo that can drop the higher end spells like Canni IV/Bane/Pox/etc?

Or if not solo, then duo...even if the xp is slower, might as well try getting them to drop and xp at the same time.

[Darkatar]

Kind of a side question here...

Are there any mobs in the 48-50 range to solo that can drop the higher end spells like Canni IV/Bane/Pox/etc?

Or if not solo, then duo...even if the xp is slower, might as well try getting them to drop and xp at the same time.

You'll need to be killing 55+ mobs for 55+ spells (IIRC, might be 50+ for 55+spells)

You'll need to kill velious mobs for velious spells, kunark mobs for kunark spells.

[solutionx]

Speaking from the high end perspective, as a 60 necro, I've had fun and made money with a 60 shaman (with torpor) at seb, broodmother, dn, and western waste. A monk should be nice too, but necromancers provide a lot of damage and utility if they know what they're doing. Even things that shamans can solo die twice as fast if not faster with a necro sidekick around.

In howling stones, I can't think of a better duo in the entire game for experience 54-60 than nec/shm, specially if shaman has his epic. Do it right and things melt as you kill 5-6 things at a time without stopping in basement, north, or west. Roots, dots, necro charmed pet, it all must die!

I never played a monk or shaman though, so I can't comment on how good or bad a mnk/shm duo is.

Also worth noting that Shadowbond stacks with torpor :) That helps a face tanking shaman a lot with dragons or anything else that hits hard. Practice with cliff golems pre-torpor.

On 55+ kunark spells:

That's what cliff golems are for! The most boring low chance at a high level spell in the game.

[DOPE]

That's what cliff golems are for! The most boring low chance at a high level spell in the game.

Thread hijack. Whats the best tactic/group makeup to take these down?

[solutionx]

I've mostly done it with a shaman in a duo scenario. Super rarely in a trio. Only once in a group of four people, and that seemed like overkill.

Cliff golems have a fairly fast repop timer, and people usually only kill the one next to HH because the other one has a nearly guaranteed Dragoon add.

This is a mob quite a few shamans seem to solo once they get torpor, either for practice or just for revenge, no idea.

It's not much different from duoing anything else that's tough and high hp for this combo, and not difficult at all after doing it once:

Necro pulls with something high aggro and no damage. I chose Scent of Terris. Make sure the aggro stays on you until the Shaman is able to land malosini and slow. Usually this means a few casts of Scent of Terris and kiting around in shaman's casting range unless the shaman gets really lucky. Shaman tanks, necro dots the sucker up and heals the shaman while shaman tanks/dots/heals.

If you want to get risky for a faster kill, you can charm the undead foreman, but I don't think it's worth it if you're duo. Keeping the shaman healed is a win, and focusing on dots, combined with your rogue pet is enough DPS.

You can do the other cliff golem given the repop timer, but you'll quickly see what a pain in the ass that dragoon can be.

In a trio with someone who's *that* bored, keeping both down should be a piece of cake.

If you get a good full group, it's better just going somewhere else, like if you have a rogue why not go for juggernauts in seb instead, or maybe guardian wurms with a much better drop rate on spells.

[Bubbles]

Even better thread hijack:

Necro/Monk is the best option: redic DPS with undead charm and nec can just feign pet onto monk when it breaks to re-charm at leisure.. A monk/nec in City of Mist/Guk type-areas is almost the xp of a 6man wall group, minus the 4 xp sponges. Any sign of trouble and both can feign!

Back on topic : You are basically trying to compare the two best options for a shaman to duo with to one another. It's a good problem to have.

NEC/SHM : others have said it, but Malo helps a ton with charm. Necro can use the orb of tishan as well if they want style points and max ghetto resist debuffs. If you stock up on Essence Emeralds, Necros also add a 93% rezzer to the mix, as well as emergency crowd control (Paralyzing earth is a 3 min root at level 49... Crowd Control For Dummies(tm)).

Believe it or not sometimes Necros are better pullers because pet pulls with feign can make even the ugliest rooms manageable. I used to routinely use a Necro for mini Fire Giant raids in classic, just because sending a pet into the room before Rokyl would aggro all 4, I could tag one, and it would run all the way up to me as i feigned. The other 3 giants would be finishing off the pet, but not before an off-assist had bowed the one giant over to the raid. Just as an example.

Most monks are monks for life. If he's getting cold feet, he's not a real monk. The major bonus to being a monk would be if you guys were raiding... Easier to sneak onto a l337 raidguild roster as a monk + buffer than a twitcher + buffer.

[Teppler]

I've got a 60 necro and shaman and have played them both extensively.

Without charming its close to a toss up.

If the necro can charm, you'll get significantly more fire power.

Necro charmed pet is like 2x the dps and 3x the hp of a monk. Then you have the necros spells.

[Fishbait]

Thanks for the info, the shaman/necro combo has been working out well and we're figuring out our synergies to fly through xp.

Going to try out that cliff golem sometime pre-torpor and see how it goes, though it seems a bit more like playing the lottery, even more so then regular cash camps.

And I think i'll safely assume that juggs/guardian wurms/ww dragons will be something to do post-torpor.

[Teppler]

I've gotten the cliff golem down below 50% on my necro alone. With a shaman it should be cake. Have your necro charm a skelly.

[Fishbait]

I've gotten the cliff golem down below 50% on my necro alone. With a shaman it should be cake. Have your necro charm a skelly.

It definitely seems possible...but even if it is, is it worth doing?

I guess for me racking up 10/20/30 hours and there being a decent chance of not getting anything of value being possible is making me shy away from doing it, besides for a hour or two to get the practice in with my duo.

[RDawg816]

watch this camp turn out to be the best plat/per hour camp in eq and nobody figured it out right in our faces for like 15 years.
It's not.

[fastboy21]

Necro and shaman will work, but you have to be craftier.

The big enjoyment of monk/shaman is that results are HIGHLY consistent. There is not much room for the RNG to screw you (like a necro charm break). Casters get resists, early breaks (root/charm), run out of mana, etc. Monk dps is high and consistent.

Once monk pulls a solo mob and slow lands its game over practically. Very very little risk involved once the pull is brought to camp.