Fighting dragons at ToV zonein

[Dolalin]

This shit was banhammer worthy on live. Why is it allowed to happen here?

Come on guys. Staff, can we get a comment? This needs to be against the rules.

[khysanth]

Staff has already approved this tactic

[maskedmelon]

This shit was banhammer worthy on live. Why is it allowed to happen here?

Come on guys. Staff, can we get a comment? This needs to be against the rules.

This isow we do it on p99. People already waste too many hours waiting for things to spawn. Why turn every ToV encounter into a PoG raid? Ain't nobody got time for that. Everyone here is either too old and unhealthy (overweight, dependent & unemployed without medical care) or good looking and only interested casual play to "invest" (waste) that kind of time.

[paulgiamatti]

I agree, this is probably one of the more egregious things the staff has approved of. It absolutely blows zoning into ToV and dying to AoEs, or simply just being in the room and having to fucking LoS yourself out of the AoE, hoping the dragon doesn't gate, wipe out the raid force, and then go on a slaughtering spree at entrance for a good while. It's essentially legal training.

Killing Wuoshi is more or less the same - I'd also be in favor of a rule that says you have to pull Wuoshi away from the zone ins. If you kill him at his spawn point, his AoEs hit people porting in. If you pull him to Kael, his AoEs hit people zoning over.

Also, saying you can't kill dragons at ToV entrance isn't the same thing as saying you have to clear to the dragons. Killing like 8 drakes or whatever in the first hallway and fighting there really isn't too much to ask.

[maskedmelon]

If you die to an aoe zoning into ToV, probably shouldn't be zoning in to ToV.

[paulgiamatti]

Ever heard of zoning and going AFK? Ever heard of corpse runs to ToV? If you zone in naked you're going to eat shit.

[maskedmelon]

Ever heard of zoning and going AFK? Ever heard of corpse runs to ToV? If you zone in naked you're going to eat shit.

If you die to an aoe zoning into ToV, probably shouldn't be zoning in to ToV.

:3

[paulgiamatti]

It's still just as stupid as the first time you said it.

[maskedmelon]

Oh :c

Well, guess I'll head back to KC to see what I can learn about zoning naked or going afk while zoning...

[paulgiamatti]

Because KC trains are totally the exact same thing as 500 dmg AoEs that span the entirety of the room every six seconds.

[thufir]

people zone into KC all the time naked, that's basically what you do after you die there, especially if you were the cleric. I don't understand why this was brought up since it isn't even remotely the same as zoning into a dragon.

[maskedmelon]

No, they are quite different actually^^ They can be avoided in the same way though ^^

[maskedmelon]

people zone into KC all the time naked, that's basically what you do after you die there, especially if you were the cleric. I don't understand why this was brought up since it isn't even remotely the same as zoning into a dragon.

And that is why this applies,

If you die to an aoe zoning into ToV, probably shouldn't be zoning in to ToV.

[Sadiki]

A weak argument to justify screwing over other people. "We don't have time to fight somewhere else", "if you can't survive a dragon AE while naked oh well", I mean come on, really? It's designed to be a safe room with no mob spawns in it, and you can't just turn around and immediately zone out. The raider mentality on this server is really not like classic EQ, everyone only cares about themselves.

[Sallan]

Staff has already approved this tactic

Sadly true. However, IMO, making it a rule of having to kill the dragon in NToV itself or by their spawn spot (or just perma rooting the lords/ladies) will fix this easily and also possibly extend the timers to allow many other guilds to engage dragons as how they were back in the day - actually clearing mobs to reach one.

[maskedmelon]

This is a social game guys. If you haven't learned how to communicate with other players, probably not a good idea to enter a raid zone ^^ There is one guild that regularly kills there and two that do sometimes. Just have to send a message to one of them to ask if they have a mob at zome in ^^ That is the point. ^^

[Dronuspk]

Maskedmelon posting dumb shit per par.

Maskedmelon getting shit on per par.

Agree'd, this shouldn't be allowed. Buuut, P99 isn't classic in almost any way other than progression so...

[paulgiamatti]

P99 progression has been anything but classic.

[Dronuspk]

I should've said expansions. Not progression.

[Maner]

Because KC trains are totally the exact same thing as 500 dmg AoEs that span the entirety of the room every six seconds.

Which dragon does a 500dmg aoe every 6 seconds in tov? the only reason you would be zoning into TOV is if you belong to some guild that is raiding a part of it. How hard is it to ask the other people in your guild if it is safe to zone in first?

This shit was banhammer worthy on live. Why is it allowed to happen here?

please show me proof of people being banned on live for killing Ntov dragons at the zone in.

[Dronuspk]

"Show me proof of something over 14 years ago!"

[maskedmelon]

"Show me proof of something over 14 years ago!"

Ele does it all the time. Though, when you can't figure out how to avoid zoning into dragon AE's, I can't blame you for not knowing ^^

You just need to browse relevant sites using they Wayback machine.

[nostalgiaquest]

I have a noob questions. When I did ToV back on live it was always clear to the named and kill it in its spot.

How do you get around the summoning aspect of pulling? I remember named guys summoning like crazy when agroed, to the point where you couldn't run away even if you tried. Also, How do you get around the mobs between the zone in and the named? Train them around in circles?

Did anyone on live actually pull to the zone in for kills? Nobody did on my server, that's for sure.

[paulgiamatti]

Which dragon does a 500dmg aoe every 6 seconds in tov?

I was exaggerating. You get the point. Lady Mirenella's AoE does ~400 dmg every 6 seconds, unless the wiki data is wrong.

the only reason you would be zoning into TOV is if you belong to some guild that is raiding a part of it.

Totally not true.

[maskedmelon]

I have a noob questions. When I did ToV back on live it was always clear to the named and kill it in its spot.

How do you get around the summoning aspect of pulling? I remember named guys summoning like crazy when agroed, to the point where you couldn't run away even if you tried. Also, How do you get around the mobs between the zone in and the named? Train them around in circles?

Did anyone on live actually pull to the zone in for kills? Nobody did on my server, that's for sure.

You don't hurt it and it won't summon. To pull it, one person trains up from ent and toward HoT. Another trains down toward exit. The dragon is tagged from the train to exit.

[paulgiamatti]

I mean, I'm sure on Tallon Zek or whatever server it was that nilbog & co. played on there were some assholes killing dragons at ToV entrance and that's probably their justification for it, but like, this is not a damn PvP server. Allow that shit on red, not blue.

[maskedmelon]

They never adopted that tactic on red here.

[Swish]

They never adopted that tactic on red here.

Red's velious pop was never great, sadly.

[Maner]

Totally not true.

So you are trying to go to PoM on the day that everything is currently in window?

The odds of you choosing the exact moment to zone in, during a 5-10min at most fight, when mobs have a 16 hour window, seem rather slim actually.

I mean, I'm sure on Tallon Zek or whatever server it was that nilbog & co. played on there were some assholes killing dragons at ToV entrance and that's probably their justification for it, but like, this is not a damn PvP server. Allow that shit on red, not blue.

i have never seen anyone provide proof that actual dragons were ever killed at the TOV zone in though. I just want to know how someone can claim people were banned for doing it on live.

"Show me proof of something over 14 years ago!"

if they can make the claim they obviously have something that supports it right? or else its all just talking out of their ass i guess...

[paulgiamatti]

So you are trying to go to PoM on the day that everything is currently in window?

Yes, I have zoned into ToV and died multiple times when my guild wasn't raiding there, back when I was in a guild. Besides, this argument falls flat because you're basically saying that anyone who ever wants to enter ToV should have to figure out who, if anyone, is in there and sling tells until you figure out whether or not there is currently a dragon being slain at the god damned entrance.

The odds of you choosing the exact moment to zone in, during a 5-10min at most fight, when mobs have a 16 hour window, seem rather slim actually.

Maybe immediately after a repop when the windows are still stacked. But even if we're being generous and granting that they idiotically slaughtered all 27 or whatever dragons in the course of 4 hours, and it's now the following week, that's still an entire day out of the week that you may or may not zone into ToV and have to scramble to a safe spot before a dragon's AoE kills you. Better hope you didn't accidentally get aggro in WW and zone in with low health.

If we're being uncharitable and assume there hasn't been a repop in several months or more, windows are going to be spread out and could more or less cover all seven days of the week.

[vincenzo]

These people are far too lazy to do something like fight a dragon somewhere other than zone-in. It would be cool if we played on a server where these elitist douche bags wouldnt mind doing something that could be construed as courteous to the rest of the server but alas, this is p99 where raiders are assholes and devs enable their behavior.

[Maner]

Yes, I have zoned into ToV and died multiple times when my guild wasn't raiding there, back when I was in a guild. Besides, this argument falls flat because you're basically saying that anyone who ever wants to enter ToV should have to figure out who, if anyone, is in there and sling tells until you figure out whether or not there is currently a dragon being slain at the god damned entrance.



Maybe immediately after a repop when the windows are still stacked. But even if we're being generous and granting that they idiotically slaughtered all 27 or whatever dragons in the course of 4 hours, that's still an entire day out of the week that you may or may not zone into ToV and hope you scramble to a safe spot before a dragon's AoE kills you. Better hope you didn't accidentally get aggro in WW and zone in with low health.

If we're being uncharitable and assume there hasn't been a repop in several months or more, windows are going to be spread out and could more or less cover all seven days of the week.

when the windows are spread out of 7 days there is even less of a chance actually. Not saying you have to sling tells but doing a couple /who alls can easily save you a death if you are so under-geared that you fall over to a dragon ae before you can zone. Seems like its in your best interest to ask instead of just assume anywhere is safe. There is a reason why you are told not to bind in dungeons on this server. The smart people assume there is a train somewhere every time they zone into a dungeon

[Kodim]

Ya'll nerds acting like there's trains and dragon aoes killing the entire server in ToV.

Stop complaining about a very minor issue.

[trite]

This shit was banhammer worthy on live. Why is it allowed to happen here?

Come on guys. Staff, can we get a comment? This needs to be against the rules.

Live didn't have variance...c'mon man don't embarrass yourself

[paulgiamatti]

when the windows are spread out of 7 days there is even less of a chance actually.

It would be an equal chance, actually. Stacked windows would just make it easier because you'd know which days of the week are safe.

Seems like its in your best interest to ask instead of just assume anywhere is safe.

Seems like you shouldn't have to ask to make sure that the one room in which no mobs spawn - what used to be called the "safe area" - is safe.

Not saying you have to sling tells but doing a couple /who alls can easily save you a death if you are so under-geared that you fall over to a dragon ae before you can zone.

It is not unreasonable to assume ToV entrance should be safe. Luckily for me, I could probably withstand any ToV dragon's AoEs without any heals, unlike most warm body Awakened/Aftermath scrubs, but I'm not always playing my characters. Sometimes you're on a low level anchor, sometimes you're on a low level ranger, etc.

The smart people assume there is a train somewhere every time they zone into a dungeon

Smart people also correctly assume that even if it was possible, it absolutely would not be acceptable to pull Trakanon to Sebilis' entrance and kill him there.

[lurk]

Ok i have no problem with pulling to zone in but there is a broken mechanism that makes it non classic.

Call of the zero, which many of the dragons use is supposed to summon you even if the mob is undamaged.

/thread_over

[Sallan]

Ok i have no problem with pulling to zone in but there is a broken mechanism that makes it non classic.

Call of the zero, which many of the dragons use is supposed to summon you even if the mob is undamaged.

/thread_over

That was something verant introduced a little later but you are right. Same goes with rooted dragons

[lurk]

I know rooted dragons came later. I was just basing that post off the fact that the wiki lists it on a couple dragons

[Sallan]

These changes may be due a little later but will considerably change the situation there (for the better I'd say but some might argue otherwise as they are happy with the minimal farm time the current situation presents for them aka zone in pull)

[Briscoe]

Let's assume 25 targets that are killed in ToV per week, with each encounter taking 10 minutes. That is 250 minutes of ToV dragon killing, out of 10,080 minutes in a given week. So on a given zone-in, you have a 2.5% chance of zoning into an active encounter. That's actually a conservative estimate because not every encounter takes 10 minutes, and not every encounter happens at the zone-in, anyway (several are pulled to LTK). Thus, something approaching 1% is more accurate.

And I would disagree with your assertion that stacked up spawn windows makes no difference. My 1% estimate of zoning into an active encounter assumes a uniform probability distribution both for the spawn windows as well as your play time. Do you play this game at all hours? Do you zone in to ToV at 5AM as frequently as you zone in at 9PM? Probably not. That means that under the current ToV window situation, with everything in window on Mondays, you're going to have no chance of zoning into some of these dragons being killed because they will be killed while you're not home. So that fact is going to take our 1% number down significantly.

So you're upset over something that happens approximately 1% of the time. Even if you DO zone in during an active encounter, you really shouldn't die. Find someplace safe and hide, like half of the force killing the dragon is doing (e.g. the clerics).

You also keep trying to bolster your argument by adding in hypotheticals or things you just shouldn't be doing anyway, such as zoning in with low HP, or zoning in and then going AFK. How many times do you zone in to ToV at anything substantially less than full health? And why would you ever go AFK anywhere in ToV? You're just asking for trouble if you do that.

[Zekayy]

If you die to an aoe zoning into ToV, probably shouldn't be zoning in to ToV.

[Zekayy]

It would be an equal chance, actually. Stacked windows would just make it easier because you'd know which days of the week are safe.



Seems like you shouldn't have to ask to make sure that the one room in which no mobs spawn - what used to be called the "safe area" - is safe.



It is not unreasonable to assume ToV entrance should be safe. Luckily for me, I could probably withstand any ToV dragon's AoEs without any heals, unlike most warm body Awakened/Aftermath scrubs, but I'm not always playing my characters. Sometimes you're on a low level anchor, sometimes you're on a low level ranger, etc.



Smart people also correctly assume that even if it was possible, it absolutely would not be acceptable to pull Trakanon to Sebilis' entrance and kill him there.

Nemce has brainwashed you

[Zekayy]

Let's assume 25 targets that are killed in ToV per week, with each encounter taking 10 minutes. That is 250 minutes of ToV dragon killing, out of 10,080 minutes in a given week. So on a given zone-in, you have a 2.5% chance of zoning into an active encounter. That's actually a conservative estimate because not every encounter takes 10 minutes, and not every encounter happens at the zone-in, anyway (several are pulled to LTK). Thus, something approaching 1% is more accurate.

And I would disagree with your assertion that stacked up spawn windows makes no difference. My 1% estimate of zoning into an active encounter assumes a uniform probability distribution both for the spawn windows as well as your play time. Do you play this game at all hours? Do you zone in to ToV at 5AM as frequently as you zone in at 9PM? Probably not. That means that under the current ToV window situation, with everything in window on Mondays, you're going to have no chance of zoning into some of these dragons being killed because they will be killed while you're not home. So that fact is going to take our 1% number down significantly.

So you're upset over something that happens approximately 1% of the time. Even if you DO zone in during an active encounter, you really shouldn't die. Find someplace safe and hide, like half of the force killing the dragon is doing (e.g. the clerics).

You also keep trying to bolster your argument by adding in hypotheticals or things you just shouldn't be doing anyway, such as zoning in with low HP, or zoning in and then going AFK. How many times do you zone in to ToV at anything substantially less than full health? And why would you ever go AFK anywhere in ToV? You're just asking for trouble if you do that.

[paulgiamatti]

You guys have got to be kidding me. Yeah, because why would anyone else want to zone into ToV when a whole bunch of dragons spawn - when there's a massive chance that some dicks will be killing them at the entrance? I just can't imagine why.

And of course, the dumb neckbeards who do this religiously are the ones rushing to its defense, when it is absolutely 100% indefensible. No one wants to have to fucking dodge your stupid god damned dragon's AoE when they zone into ToV, and it's absolutely absurd that A/A can't muster the smallest ounce of consideration for other people and kill them at the west pad or just take 15 minutes out of their wall-staring to kill the first set of drakes and fight in the first hallway.

This doesn't affect me at all in any way whatsoever, I just think it's so insane how you idiots will come up with any reason under the sun to pretend it's totally not an inconvenience to anyone at all, when it fucking is. If I take a shit on your living room table for 1% of every week, I'm still shitting on your living room table.

[Zekayy]

You guys have got to be kidding me. Yeah, because why would anyone else want to zone into ToV when a whole bunch of dragons spawn - when there's a massive chance that some dicks will be killing them at the entrance? I just can't imagine why.

And of course, the dumb neckbeards who do this religiously are the ones rushing to its defense, when it is absolutely 100% indefensible. No one wants to have to fucking dodge your stupid god damned dragon's AoE when they zone into ToV, and it's absolutely absurd that A/A can't muster the smallest ounce of consideration for other people and kill them at the west pad or just take 15 minutes out of your wall-staring to kill the first set of drakes and fight in the first hallway.

This doesn't affect me at all in any way whatsoever, I just think it's so insane how you idiots will come up with any reason under the sun to pretend it's totally not an inconvenience to anyone at all, when it fucking is. If I take a shit on your living room table for 1% of every week, I'm still shitting on your living room table.

The reason we fight where we do is beacause every guild fights at west zoneout and when 200+ people in the zone in all stack you begin to desynch it happened before when bda and rampage and forsaken were in the zone so please know what your talking about before you speak again

[Zekayy]

But again what does csg know? nothing

[Vianna]

Which dragon does a 500dmg aoe every 6 seconds in tov? the only reason you would be zoning into TOV is if you belong to some guild that is raiding a part of it. How hard is it to ask the other people in your guild if it is safe to zone in first?



please show me proof of people being banned on live for killing Ntov dragons at the zone in.

They weren't. Devs rooted dragons to avoid it and put leash range on mobs. Guilds killed dragons at zone in up until those changes were made. Then of course Call of the Zero was added.

[arsenalpow]

Vote with your feet, stop getting shit on by the server minority, go find your fun raiding elsewhere because it won't be found on p99.

[paulgiamatti]

Oh boohoo, people desyncing at the west the zone out pad. What a tragedy.

Last I checked BDA disintegrated, lots of Rampage quit, and literally the only two guilds locking down ToV are Awakened and Aftermath. Seems like a pretty simple thing to fix, unless you're a total asshole who just doesn't give a shit about other players, that is.

And I'm not in CSG, dumbass. And the bar for "knowing what you're talking about" is set by your standards of decency and consideration for other players who just want to enjoy their elf sim nostalgia trip like everyone else. Not by knowing about some unimportant desync clusterfuck that happened once upon a time in Neckbeardia.

[paulgiamatti]

Yeah, I mean this shit is why I have no interest in raiding here anymore. Not the AoEing at ToV entrance - that's just a tiny, microscopic sliver - but just the attitude of A/A raiders making the raid scene completely unenjoyable and a total waste of time. So obstinate and unwilling to compromise on anything. And it's a giant fucking echo chamber in those guilds, I'm sure.

[Lhancelot]

If I take a shit on your living room table for 1% of every week, I'm still shitting on your living room table.

Love this.^

[Vianna]

So ToV entrance is someone's living room table now. That is my understanding of this thread.

[maskedmelon]

So ToV entrance is someone's living room table now. That is my understanding of this thread.

It belongs to Paulgiamatti, the Valorous, Defender of None, Aggressor of Phamtoms.

[surron]

how do people pull aary to entrance... dont all the CoV mobs assist?

[xKoopa]

how do people pull aary to entrance... dont all the CoV mobs assist?

Train away trash and pull dragon single

P much the strat for every p99 encounter

[Cecily]

Train away trash and pull dragon single

P much the strat for every p99 encounter

Why this server is aids.

[Ravager]

Why this server is aids.
I dunno, these days aids can be treated and those afflicted can still live relatively normal lives. There's yet to be a treatment for P99 raiding.

[Daldaen]

Really they need to mass remove bind points in ToV, rebind everyone outside at the ToV entrance in WW and remove the ability to bind in ToV.

Next they need to implement lazy aggro in Kunark and Velious zones so that mobs forget and reset to their home point if their primary target ever gets outside of this range. I think when people tested this out it was typically 600' for this forget to occur.

Next they need to implement a 2-4 hour respawn on all raid mobs so nerds don't care about getting every single kill.

Next Braknar needs to release the coded raid scripts from special events as actual in-game custom raid content that takes more than a corner and CH rotation to kill, with adds you need to CC and shit. I look forward to the Sleeper back to sleep event he hinted at last night on Sirken's stream.

Bam, Daldaen fixed your raid scene and every guild on this server can kill Dragons to their hearts content.

PS - I tried to get zone pulling banned earlier in the raid discussion forums. But it wouldn't be agreed to and since the zone in has the most circular room, it is optimal for pushing gating Dragons especially huge ones like Vulak. The LTK zone out and zone in cubbies are doable but take a lot more disciplined push from your melee to work, so every guild on the server that does them takes the path of least resistance.

[Ella`Ella]

Auto-attack has been ruining this server for years.

[Daldaen]

Confirmed need to spam hit "A" to swing your weapon IMO.

If you use ASWD for your movement keys and Q for attack please reset to the default classic hotkeys shown in the tutorial.

[fadetree]

So, if someone put up a big red button somewhere marked 'LOOT', and each guild could press it a couple times a week and it would excrete a couple of BIS items, would they even bother with the game or would they just sit around the button staring at it until it was time to press it again?

[TeemoOfAstora]

So, if someone put up a big red button somewhere marked 'LOOT', and each guild could press it a couple times a week and it would excrete a couple of BIS items, would they even bother with the game or would they just sit around the button staring at it until it was time to press it again?

I think at some point it becomes less about pixels at a press of a button so much as the joy of stopping the "other guys" from pressing their buttons.

[karkaroth]

Laff

[maskedmelon]

So, if someone put up a big red button somewhere marked 'LOOT', and each guild could press it a couple times a week and it would excrete a couple of BIS items, would they even bother with the game or would they just sit around the button staring at it until it was time to press it again?

This is a very difficult question to answer. Initially we would need to open a dialogue to establish the nature of button pressing, associated challenges and other considerations. Having found arrived at little agreement we might then be able to move on to discussion of proper button pressing etiquette and permissible behavior of pressers while defining all other relevant roles.

[Lhancelot]

This is a very difficult question to answer. Initially we would need to open a dialogue to establish the nature of button pressing, associated challenges and other considerations. Having found arrived at little agreement we might then be able to move on to discussion of proper button pressing etiquette and permissible behavior of pressers while defining all other relevant roles.

Also where you moved the button would have to be considered. Obviously the placement is important.

[maskedmelon]

Also where you moved the button would have to be considered. Obviously the placement is important.

Exactly! Far too difficult a question to address without an actual implementation to dissect. ^^

[Rygar]

Really they need to mass remove bind points in ToV, rebind everyone outside at the ToV entrance in WW and remove the ability to bind in ToV.

Next they need to implement lazy aggro in Kunark and Velious zones so that mobs forget and reset to their home point if their primary target ever gets outside of this range. I think when people tested this out it was typically 600' for this forget to occur.



Interesting point on Lazy Aggro. WoW had this and I hated it, but it was on every mob. For raid bosses, I 100% agree on, however... This would allow some strategy such as staying in range of lazy agro but out of range of AoEs or having a series of chain pullers to bring mob to zone in. I am not so sure poopsockers won't still exploit this to fit it into their current strategy. I would say if the mob itself got out of a certain range, it would invoke 'call of the zero' where it would summon peeps on the hate list despite the mob not being damaged.

As far as removing bind points in ToV... YES! They already did this in fear I believe (which is not classic), so precedent is there to establish this in ToV. PoM coths just got more expensive too!!

I disagree on the 2hr respawn rate on boss mobs. That is too 'participation trophy' for my tastes. The 7-day mob spawn is a classic delayed gratification that makes getting that loot so rewarding and valuable.

[Alanus]

My problem with pulling dragons to the entrance is:

On live, raids used the zone in as a setup area for ToV raids. Let's say a guild is planning on doing an armor farm in WToV or whatever. They can't really setup and buff while dragon AEs are going off at the entrance.

Plus, it kind of kills the point if you pull the dragons to the entrance.

[Pumpedup]

just park a naked 46 at ent, when people do it open doors and pull drakes

let the tears flow

[lurk]

Ya binding in ToV is not classic, i cant believe thats still in game.

Remove binding, add lazy agro, root the appropriate dragons and give them call of the zero.

The whole reason they were rooted in the first place was to prevent skipping content which verant took seriously. Its also one of the main reasons item recharging was nerfed (using rez staffs to skip content)

[Erati]

Im confused at the proposed resolutions to pulling dragons to the zone when you would like to zone in...do we need SoWers shouting in WW to not zone in?
seems pretty easy to have people do

[Rygar]

Im confused at the proposed resolutions to pulling dragons to the zone when you would like to zone in...do we need SoWers shouting in WW to not zone in?
seems pretty easy to have people do

I'm not so worried about that, just the fact that train pulling mobs to get a Dragon solo to entrance just trivializes the content. Wipe on an encounter is easy to overcome, mobs have shorter life spans, mystique of fighting your way to a Dragon lair is gone, etc. It just encourages fast 3am poopsocks.

Nerf please, ignore poopsock tear protests

[JackFlash]

Ya binding in ToV is not classic, i cant believe thats still in game.

Remove binding, add lazy agro, root the appropriate dragons and give them call of the zero.

The whole reason they were rooted in the first place was to prevent skipping content which verant took seriously. Its also one of the main reasons item recharging was nerfed (using rez staffs to skip content)

[Joyelle]

I'm not so worried about that, just the fact that train pulling mobs to get a Dragon solo to entrance just trivializes the content. Wipe on an encounter is easy to overcome, mobs have shorter life spans, mystique of fighting your way to a Dragon lair is gone, etc. It just encourages fast 3am poopsocks.

Nerf please, ignore poopsock tear protests

Why did you guys pull Fesh to LTK last night? Doesn't that trivialize the content? It's absolutely fanstastic that you guys constantly preach wanting to clear to the dragons yet when you have the opportunity you never do it.

[arsenalpow]

Why did you guys pull Fesh to LTK last night? Doesn't that trivialize the content? It's absolutely fanstastic that you guys constantly preach wanting to clear to the dragons yet when you have the opportunity you never do it.

Probably because they weren't afforded the opportunity to do so. Anytime CSG tries to crawl they get obliterated with "pulls". A/A isn't going to just halt operations and let someone else clear content normally.

[fadetree]

I'm not so worried about that, just the fact that train pulling mobs to get a Dragon solo to entrance just trivializes the content.

That's what I'm on about....why the hell do people want to trivialize end game content? The content IS the game at that point, without it you might as well just be pressing a loot button.

I get that blocking is fun for some people, but sheesh.

[maskedmelon]

I'm not so worried about that, just the fact that train pulling mobs to get a Dragon solo to entrance just trivializes the content. Wipe on an encounter is easy to overcome, mobs have shorter life spans, mystique of fighting your way to a Dragon lair is gone, etc. It just encourages fast 3am poopsocks.

Nerf please, ignore poopsock tear protests

If you are unhappy with the current situation, how about lobbying for something that is better for players in general. Right now you are saying "I can't currently compete, so I want this change to this other situation in which I will still be unable to compete, but will at least have the satisfaction of knowing that I have made the process more miserable for others."

Guess what? I can't compete either, but lobbying to have to clear drakes for hours to get to a dragon is t going to give me any more free time or increase my chances of being available for dragon kills :/

[maskedmelon]

Forcing trash clears in ToV only promotes poopsockery.

#justsayno
#endpoopsockery

[thufir]

Why did you guys pull Fesh to LTK last night? Doesn't that trivialize the content? It's absolutely fanstastic that you guys constantly preach wanting to clear to the dragons yet when you have the opportunity you never do it.

This isn't true. I'm not even in AG but I've definitely heard of them crawling through ToV to kill dragons during slow server times.

Chest is right that when A/A is on this isn't possible behavior. I don't understand why you'd bring it up, knowing that fact.

[Ella`Ella]

If any of the CSG guilds suddenly became 'top of the food chain' they'd exhibit the same exact behavior as A/A.

[Rygar]

Why did you guys pull Fesh to LTK last night? Doesn't that trivialize the content? It's absolutely fanstastic that you guys constantly preach wanting to clear to the dragons yet when you have the opportunity you never do it.

I'm against it in principle, but my guild does do it and I even participated in an attempt on a different mob last night. We're all in a position with current ruleset to keep up with the Jones' or get nothing, its the current raiding paradigm (and as Chest mentioned, training is a huge problem). It's like being against FTE foot races, yet you are being forced to participate in order to kill mobs.

Just accept that training mobs to get solo dragons to entrance is a cancer that has overtaken everyone, it was not what the original developers intended for content. We should all want to be better than that.

[Llodd]

If any of the CSG guilds suddenly became 'top of the food chain' they'd exhibit the same exact behavior as A/A.

Couldn't be more wrong.

[thufir]

Couldn't be more wrong.
yeah, cutthroat people always think everyone would be cutthroat in their situation.

they misplace cause and effect.

[Llodd]

And of course, the dumb neckbeards who do this religiously are the ones rushing to its defense, when it is absolutely 100% indefensible. No one wants to have to fucking dodge your stupid god damned dragon's AoE when they zone into ToV, and it's absolutely absurd that A/A can't muster the smallest ounce of consideration for other people and kill them at the west pad or just take 15 minutes out of their wall-staring to kill the first set of drakes and fight in the first hallway.

.

Well, yeah this did happen last night.

We had Vulak at zone in AND Aary just past the door at the same time, GL when you zone into that !

[Vandil]

I don't miss raiding. Killing Nagafen every once is awhile was fun though.

[Daldaen]

If any of the CSG guilds suddenly became 'top of the food chain' they'd exhibit the same exact behavior as A/A.

I genuinely believe CSG would rotate or share mobs if they were top of the food chain. It just seems to be who they are.

To answer someone else about them pulling to LTK, problem is even if they wanted to clear up to Fesh, without a substantial force this isn't really feasible. It's 1 hour and even just Fesh you've got about 6 trash mobs 4 dragon drakes and CotHing to Eashen stairs for that 80 man raid force, many/most of which are not camped out or bound in the zone. So the travel there alone for their raid force I imagine takes like 20 minutes.

Not to mention the herpderp wyvern train they would eat should another mob spawn while they're clearing.

What we really need is the north flurry Drake roamers near PoM and doubles to get removed (classic). Allow guilds to camp in north (classic) and have Mage bots in the safe corners. Just so long as they are acquiring FTE the same way, I don't see why their camp location even matters.

I think having a raid force at doubles hallway corner and triplets hallway would be really cool and immersive.

#MakeToVClassicAgain

[Ella`Ella]

Couldn't be more wrong.

A-Team was casual scum, became a big fish began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

Asgard was casual scum, became a big fish began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

Taken was casual scum, became a big fish began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

BDA was casual scum, became a big fish (in a very very small pond - Class R) began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

No guild has ever ascended the ranks and become a 'liberator of pixels'. It doesn't work because you just open yourself up to losing that top spot and none of the guilds are will to accept that long fall from the top.

The only person I think could actually pull it off or would affect a change, given the opportunity, is Cloki and Omni.

[arsenalpow]

A-Team was casual scum, became a big fish began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

Asgard was casual scum, became a big fish began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

Taken was casual scum, became a big fish began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

BDA was casual scum, became a big fish (in a very very small pond - Class R) began acting like every other top-tier guild on this server had.

No guild has ever ascended the ranks and become a 'liberator of pixels'. It doesn't work because you just open yourself up to losing that top spot and none of the guilds are will to accept that long fall from the top.

The only person I think could actually pull it off or would affect a change, given the opportunity, is Cloki and Omni.

Raev dumped his roster into Rampage

Asgard dumped their roster into Aftermath

Taken dumped their roster into Awakened

BDA kept the rotation going for a year and did server wide raids when TMO was suspended and eventually left p99 for more fun EQ opportunities.

One of these isn't like the others.

[gummab]

If any of the CSG guilds suddenly became 'top of the food chain' they'd exhibit the same exact behavior as A/A.

1st of April is that way >

[maskedmelon]

I think it is more of an issue that to become top of the food chain, one must adopt this strategy, so Ella is correct. If no CSG guild adopts this mindset, it will not become top guild. Right or wrong.

[Lowako]

I've never understood the fascination with clearing trash monsters. It is typically an exercise in not falling asleep at the keyboard. I could be missing something major, but I've personally never understood the appeal.

[Ciroco]

CSG can claim innocence all they want but the fact is they could of cleared to kill iki and fesh last night but chose not to. So the only people with room to complain about this are the non-raiders that get caught during that 1% of the time a dragon is at ent.

It's not feasible to clear to most NToV dragons based on the current rules.

[Raev]

As much as I hate the current poopsocking raid scene, I don't see how removing zone pulls is going to help anything. At least with the current system it's relatively easy to recover from wipes and most of the action happens well away from the various raids.

We already had Awakened intentionally train the zone in to get Vulak yesterday (was your immortal soul worth a Gharn's Rock on an emulated server, pals?). Can you imagine the opportunities for 'oops, sorry about vaporizing your raid there' if multiple guilds are in NTOV simultaneously? The people asking for rooted bosses have simply not thought this through.

Almost everyone agrees that the current raid scene on Project 1999 is horribly broken. The problem is there are only two ways to fix it: massive GM intervention to just rotate everything (probably boring) and mechanics fixes (not classic).

[Cecily]

I've never understood the fascination with clearing trash monsters. It is typically an exercise in not falling asleep at the keyboard. I could be missing something major, but I've personally never understood the appeal.

EQ isn't supposed to be a dopamine pez dispenser. A NToV clear isn't supposed to be easy. You're a casual in a casual guild.

[Raev]

EQ isn't supposed to be a dopamine pez dispenser.

http://i.imgur.com/ygcJBJt.jpg

[maskedmelon]

What does it mean when it stops dispensing??? f^^;

[Saludeen]

Most bluebies don't understand the "deal with it" concept like red players do. Its the difference between someone who complains about being ganked and crys to the admins to regulate it, and someone who would just deal with it intelligently by playing an alt, logging out, waiting till they leave, etc. So the stereotypical bluebie (not all) can't fathom the simple task of checking the zone for any guilds farming it, asking if they're at the zoneline, and not entering if so. Or any other method to prevent dying.

[kotton05]

I think at some point it becomes less about pixels at a press of a button so much as the joy of stopping the "other guys" from pressing their buttons.

this is pretty much the root of it all. also its going to alts n alts plus the new influx of players who join the loot machine. all that creates a perfect storm of no lifers and pixel whores.

also on live shit was rooted eventually afaik but not being able to pull wont solve anything other than creating a time sink to move your raid up. prolly creating more of a nightmare of leapfrogging.

[Spyder73]

IMO perma-root all nToV dragons and watch the tears flow as Awakened squeals like a piggy

[thufir]

I've never understood the fascination with clearing trash monsters. It is typically an exercise in not falling asleep at the keyboard. I could be missing something major, but I've personally never understood the appeal.
some people prefer dungeon crawling to simply "boss mob pulled to group, group kills mob, celebrate rewards". if you're not one of those people you're not going to understand it now. best to accept that others find it enjoyable even if you don't.

those of us who like crawling have a similar confusion about the entertainment value of your preferred strategy, if that makes you feel any better.

[Maner]

This isn't true. I'm not even in AG but I've definitely heard of them crawling through ToV to kill dragons during slow server times.

Chest is right that when A/A is on this isn't possible behavior. I don't understand why you'd bring it up, knowing that fact.

They tried to clear to ikitar which is the closest mob to the zone in and still couldn't even get past the hub in an hour which is the server gms established time limit on an FTE.

[thufir]

They tried to clear to ikitar which is the closest mob to the zone in and still couldn't even get past the hub in an hour which is the server gms established time limit on an FTE.
yeah this happened prior to the ridiculous footracing rules. imo if you're gonna do that just permaroot them and have done. there is nothing less classic than the footrace. at least permarooting happened on live somewhat close to this era.

[Rygar]

I've never understood the fascination with clearing trash monsters. It is typically an exercise in not falling asleep at the keyboard. I could be missing something major, but I've personally never understood the appeal.

To me, it isn't a fascination, its the challenge of moving your raid force as one and no one making stupid mistakes along the way. Being a monk, I also miss split pulling I guess. The 'buff your main and park at exit, we'll tweet you when pull about to start' way of doing things just provides an extremely fast turn over (i.e. printing press of pixels).

I really see little difference between Chardok AoE vs. Raid Scene Pulls. I get it, I'm over-simplifying things and thinking in a vacuum (and I'm not a hardcore raider). Like most things, the solution may lie somewhere in the middle.

[Rygar]

some people prefer dungeon crawling to simply "boss mob pulled to group, group kills mob, celebrate rewards". if you're not one of those people you're not going to understand it now. best to accept that others find it enjoyable even if you don't.

those of us who like crawling have a similar confusion about the entertainment value of your preferred strategy, if that makes you feel any better.

I forgot to mention this... I want to SEE the content too! Not just the entrance area. Probably some beautiful zone design tucked away in there somewhere.

[thufir]

I forgot to mention this... I want to SEE the content too! Not just the entrance area. Probably some beautiful zone design tucked away in there somewhere.
exactly wedar. part of why I am playing a pulling class on p99 is because that's the only way to really see all the nooks and crannies of every dungeon.

even with my group I crawl, because they want to see the place too.

I mean, isn't killing trash mobs basically 95% of everquest gameplay? if you don't want to do that how did you even get to 60? it can't all have been chardok cartel pulls.

[Naethyn]

The guild leader summit was called as a result of training to ToV ent. We clearly could have fixed this by also moving the racing line up to the stairs. /s

There is no reason every guild cannot just pull to one of the two cubbies past entrance. It has been proven that gating mobs can be pushed there.

[kotton05]

I've never understood the fascination with clearing trash monsters. It is typically an exercise in not falling asleep at the keyboard. I could be missing something major, but I've personally never understood the appeal.

what you're missing is something very major... ill tell you right now if you distance yourself and see that 95% of the server dont play to churn out BiS alts by sacrificing their real life you would then understand why a 2-4 hour crawl during prime time is fun.

/em checks Lowako's pulse

looks like we got a warm body here folks, nothing to see move along.

[Maner]

yeah this happened prior to the ridiculous footracing rules. imo if you're gonna do that just permaroot them and have done. there is nothing less classic than the footrace. at least permarooting happened on live somewhat close to this era.

No, they did it after the foot race FTE rules were implemented too.

[thufir]

No, they did it after the foot race FTE rules were implemented too.
they *tried* to do it after the footrace rules. they *succeeded* prior to that.

[maskedmelon]

what you're missing is something very major... ill tell you right now if you distance yourself and see that 95% of the server dont play to churn out BiS alts by sacrificing their real life you would then understand why a 2-4 hour crawl during prime time is fun.

/em checks Lowako's pulse

looks like we got a warm body here folks, nothing to see move along.

This kinda silly merkk. You are arguing to stop wasting real life time by spending 10-15x more time to down a single target.

The different play style / interest argument makes sense, but arguing that spending more time to kill something is somehow virtuous or saving people time in RL is silly ^^

[icedwards]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Kalkar_of_the_Maelstrom

Lots of great loot up in NToV that drops off uncontested flurry drakes. It's hard to take the "We would totally do classic dungeon crawls if it weren't for all the neckbeards" seriously when casual guilds decide to pull these to the exit just like any other dragon spawn.

[Tasslehofp99]

lol, who would have ever thought people would raid at the entrance to a raiding zone.

[kotton05]

This kinda silly merkk. You are arguing to stop wasting real life time by spending 10-15x more time to down a single target.

The different play style / interest argument makes sense, but arguing that spending more time to kill something is somehow virtuous or saving people time in RL is silly ^^

perhaps i got it twisted but its all silly sir

there are the min maxers who want it dead asap for chances at another spawn and those who will clear it once and never log back in. i dont think rooting or making pulling to zone in illegal are either of the solutions tho. im all for less rules and less wasted time. i do think clearing would be alot worse of a nightmare than what we're experiencing now.

how about no rules..

[snead]

perma rooting mobs would probably just mean well timed trains to move the entire raid. everyone still left at entrance will just get coth'd up. i dont think you guys understand that some people will just create new strategies and you didn't think this through at all.

[maskedmelon]

perhaps i got it twisted but its all silly sir

there are the min maxers who want it dead asap for chances at another spawn and those who will clear it once and never log back in. i dont think rooting or making pulling to zone in illegal are either of the solutions tho. im all for less rules and less wasted time. i do think clearing would be alot worse of a nightmare than what we're experiencing now.

how about no rules..

lol ^^ Sure, no rules could be wildly entertaining so long as it was genuinely no rules :3 I don't know how much time anyone would save that route either, but it would be fun to participate in ^^

[thufir]

perma rooting mobs would probably just mean well timed trains to move the entire raid. everyone still left at entrance will just get coth'd up. i dont think you guys understand that some people will just create new strategies and you didn't think this through at all.
of course they will get coth'd up and they will be forced to find some new cubby or whatever, but at least they won't be at the zoneline.

that's part of the frustration here. it's an easy enough fix and they would adjust readily to it. and yet here we are.

[Ella`Ella]

I think it is more of an issue that to become top of the food chain, one must adopt this strategy, so Ella is correct. If no CSG guild adopts this mindset, it will not become top guild. Right or wrong.

This is correct.

[snead]

of course they will get coth'd up and they will be forced to find some new cubby or whatever, but at least they won't be at the zoneline.

that's part of the frustration here. it's an easy enough fix and they would adjust readily to it. and yet here we are.

so you zone into a raid zone by yourself without doing any research on said zone? seems pretty ignorant to me. before i even zone into western wastes i'm whoing the zone and making sure Cargalia isn't at the entrance of sg and that isn't even the top end scary raid zone dungeon.

[thufir]

so you're zone into a raid zone by yourself without doing any research on said zone? seems pretty ignorant to me. before i even zone into western wastes i'm whoing the zone and making sure Cargalia isn't at the entrance of sg and that isn't even the top end scary raid zone dungeon.
yes, and I'm sure you have an alt parked inside tov in case they are all on /anon, along with moles in all the top guilds, etc. you're a good man, and thorough.

or maybe just ignorant of how much work it is, with plenty of free time on your hands. something.

[maskedmelon]

Yeah, because raid guilds go anon in tov all the time....

[snead]

yes, and I'm sure you have an alt parked inside tov in case they are all on /anon, along with moles in all the top guilds, etc. you're a good man, and thorough.

or maybe just ignorant of how much work it is, with plenty of free time on your hands. something.

i can confirm it's instructed in the guild rules to not go /anon and i've never been roleplay in tov. to add we never go roleplay unless instructed to do so which is pretty rare. sorry the OP didn't have the due dillgence to go to the scariest place in the game and didn't think about it. it reminds me of when Veeshan's Peak was released on live.

"We recommend that only the most advanced and organized players in the game even attempt to enter this zone.
The customer service staff (GMs and Guides) will not assist players in any way in regards to this zone.
This includes help for issues such as unrecoverable corpses (see your local Necromancer),
or characters finding themselves stuck (see your local Magician), bugs, etc.
- Gordon"

[thufir]

i can confirm it's instructed in the guild rules to not go /anon and i've never been roleplay in tov. to add we never go roleplay unless instructed to do so which is pretty rare. sorry the OP didn't have the due dillgence to go to the scariest place in the game and didn't think about it. it reminds me of when Veeshan's Peak was released on live.

"We recommend that only the most advanced and organized players in the game even attempt to enter this zone.
The customer service staff (GMs and Guides) will not assist players in any way in regards to this zone.
This includes help for issues such as unrecoverable corpses (see your local Necromancer),
or characters finding themselves stuck (see your local Magician), bugs, etc.
- Gordon"
ToV isn't terribly scary if you don't have dragons being fought at at the zone in. The zone in for VP is considerably worse. For that matter, the zone in to Charasis is more dangerous than the ToV zone in sans players.

This is of course the issue, that it's the players who are making it deadly, not the game environment. But there's a lot of willful ignorance going on here and it's generally best to bow out of those discussions.

[Lowako]

some people prefer dungeon crawling to simply "boss mob pulled to group, group kills mob, celebrate rewards". if you're not one of those people you're not going to understand it now. best to accept that others find it enjoyable even if you don't.

those of us who like crawling have a similar confusion about the entertainment value of your preferred strategy, if that makes you feel any better.
I think I understand it now. I don't really get much entertainment value out of fighting ToV dragons. They don't have the pure tank dunkage of AoW or Tunare and none of the AoEs feel super dangerous. There are a few exceptions, but ToV dragons seem to be less threatening than some other velious monsters. This makes for a rather "disappointing" dragon kill most of the time.

An ntov dungeon crawl (in my mind) is killing a bunch of smaller disappointments to finally reach the big disappointment. By single pulling the named dragon into your camp you drastically reduce the amount you have to be disappointed.

I still think trash monsters are inherently boring, but if I actually have the desire to kill the boss monster clearing the trash becomes gratifying rather than annoying. I guess I'm just a big hater when it comes to ToV and I think the dragons need to hit the gym. Apologies for the poor writing, I am very tired at the time of creating this post.

[Maner]

they *tried* to do it after the footrace rules. they *succeeded* prior to that.

No, they never got ikitar while trying to clear to him. It's like you're commenting on shit you obviously have no concept of. At least refrain from speaking from a place of misinformation kiddo.

[Kender]

My guild on live always crawled through NToV. it was part of the adventure. It made the consequences of failure mean the journey was more enjoyable

as a side note... surely if a guild was crawling through and some other guild tried leap frogging and trained mobs all over the first guild that would constitute a deliberate training tactic and result in raid ban for training guild?

[maskedmelon]

I think I understand it now. I don't really get much entertainment value out of fighting ToV dragons. They don't have the pure tank dunkage of AoW or Tunare and none of the AoEs feel super dangerous. There are a few exceptions, but ToV dragons seem to be less threatening than some other velious monsters. This makes for a rather "disappointing" dragon kill most of the time.

An ntov dungeon crawl (in my mind) is killing a bunch of smaller disappointments to finally reach the big disappointment. By single pulling the named dragon into your camp you drastically reduce the amount you have to be disappointed.

I still think trash monsters are inherently boring, but if I actually have the desire to kill the boss monster clearing the trash becomes gratifying rather than annoying. I guess I'm just a big hater when it comes to ToV and I think the dragons need to hit the gym. Apologies for the poor writing, I am very tired at the time of creating this post.

Well said. The little ones are just never satisfying :c

[thufir]

No, they never got ikitar while trying to clear to him. It's like you're commenting on shit you obviously have no concept of. At least refrain from speaking from a place of misinformation kiddo.
it's like you're... oh, never mind.

Thanks everyone. Today was a historic day for the blue server. Our alliance was able to fight down through North ToV, clear the hallway before the Dragon and even kill it in the room it spawns in. It was gorgeous. The loot was not so gorgeous, but the morale loot was great indeed.

I received so many tells about how THIS was how they remember Classic EQ.

[Maner]

My guild on live always crawled through NToV. it was part of the adventure. It made the consequences of failure mean the journey was more enjoyable

as a side note... surely if a guild was crawling through and some other guild tried leap frogging and trained mobs all over the first guild that would constitute a deliberate training tactic and result in raid ban for training guild?

Clearing was the way TOV was originally and it was nothing but leapfrogging and pulling dragons after the guild before you killed the guards. In fact the foot race and current rules are a direct result of the shit show TOV was for the first month here.

it's like you're... oh, never mind.

They are talking about on of the triplets, and they cothed up into north to get there and do it. Again, perhaps you should refrain from speaking on shit you have no comprehension of. Kiddo

[thufir]

They are talking about on of the triplets, and they cothed up into north to get there and do it. Again, perhaps you should refrain from speaking on shit you have no comprehension of. Kiddo
indeed, this method is basically identical to pulling dragons to zone in, I can see why you conflate the two

[Maner]

indeed, this method is basically identical to pulling dragons to zone in, I can see why you conflate the two

Except the comment you were trying to disprove specifically said ikitar. Again, you're clearly just some uninformed little joke speaking on topics they clearly don't comprehend. Keep making shit up though, looking great

[thufir]

Except the comment you were trying to disprove specifically said ikitar. Again, you're clearly just some uninformed little joke speaking on topics they clearly don't comprehend. Keep making shit up though, looking great
you can always tell when someone is confident in their posts because they attack the others in the conversation personally

it's cool, don't sweat it. you think the two are the same. I'll leave you to that.

[Llodd]

If trash is there to be so easily bypassed, might aswell just remove it all.

ps Maner - cothing to triplets and actually clearing the trash before engaging is as classic as it gets (what this server is about remember?) The abomination you (and sadly everyone else that wants a shot at anything in tov has to adhere to) is not.

[Maner]

you can always tell when someone is confident in their posts because they attack the others in the conversation personally

it's cool, don't sweat it. you think the two are the same. I'll leave you to that.

You can always tell someone who lost an argument due to their need to deflect rather than admit they confused the targets in question and was mistaking. It's called being an adult and admitting when you were wrong.

If trash is there to be so easily bypassed, might aswell just remove it all.

ps Maner - cothing to triplets and actually clearing the trash before engaging is as classic as it gets (what this server is about remember?) The abomination you (and sadly everyone else that wants a shot at anything in tov has to adhere to) is not.

Please show me where I ever said clothing into north is not classic. I was specifically referring to the fact the CSG has never cleared from entrance to ikitar and killed him at his spawn like thufir claimed. And the reason CSG got that dragon is because awakened didn't know it was up and aftermath told CSG that they could sneak in.

[thufir]

You can always tell someone who lost an argument due to their need to deflect rather than admit they confused the targets in question and was mistaking. It's called being an adult and admitting when you were wrong.

as llodd says, one way is classic and another is not.

you can see the difference pretty easily if you aren't so mad about it. but I understand your anger.

[azeth]

Staff allows killing at ToV ent because Awakened's spot is LTK and Aftermath and Awakened both do not want Aftermath also using LTK. HoT is unuseable, therefore entrance is the only other spot useable for the current method of pulling dragons.

So the staff allows this to avoid petition-fest if the two raid guilds shared the same kill spot. That took like 70 posts.

[Maner]

as llodd says, one way is classic and another is not.

you can see the difference pretty easily if you aren't so mad about it. but I understand your anger.

Except people in this thread already claimed that pulling dragons to zone in was classic, they even claimed people got banned for it. So which is it? Leashing the agro range isn't classic at this point, neither are rotations for a majority of servers, I mean classic would be dos racing the other raid wouldn't it? it's a combination of classic mechanics being used in ways a majority of the hardware wouldn't allow in classic. Does that mean it's not classic even though it's using classic mechanics?

You're also still deflecting kid, really need to work on that.

[thufir]

also Maner, I think I understand your issue with me now - you were thinking I was referring specifically to Ikitiar the entire time as opposed to me making a generic reference to "crawling and killing a dragon in NToV" (which is what I was doing). thus your anger regarding specific names, ignorance, etc.

this was just misinterpretation of what we were meaning when we were talking about it.

this may or may not stop you from being mad about it, but just fyi.

[thufir]

Except people in this thread already claimed that pulling dragons to zone in was classic, they even claimed people got banned for it. So which is it? Leashing the agro range isn't classic at this point, neither are rotations for a majority of servers, I mean classic would be dos racing the other raid wouldn't it? it's a combination of classic mechanics being used in ways a majority of the hardware wouldn't allow in classic. Does that mean it's not classic even though it's using classic mechanics?
as for this, sure, you're correct that it's just a matter of which less classic solution you're going to impose, and we can bicker about that if you want.

on the other hand, if you just want to pull dragons to tov zone in and don't really want to hear arguments against, we can just stop. it's all pretty tiresome and I think most of the "anti" positions have boiled down to that.

You're also still deflecting kid, really need to work on that.
just an fyi that no old people use "kid" as an insult. trust me, when you're in your 40s you don't really give a shit how old anyone is. hth.

[Maner]

also Maner, I think I understand your issue with me now - you were thinking I was referring specifically to Ikitiar the entire time as opposed to me making a generic reference to "crawling and killing a dragon in NToV" (which is what I was doing). thus your anger regarding specific names, ignorance, etc.

this was just misinterpretation of what we were meaning when we were talking about it.

this may or may not stop you from being mad about it, but just fyi.

So in reality the issue is I was specifically talking about ikitar and then you came in making a generic reference to somehow disprove my claim regarding ikitar? Lol you're dismissed kiddo

as for this, sure, you're correct that it's just a matter of which less classic solution you're going to impose, and we can bicker about that if you want.

on the other hand, if you just want to pull dragons to tov zone in and don't really want to hear arguments against, we can just stop. it's all pretty tiresome and I think most of the "anti" positions have boiled down to that.


just an fyi that no old people use "kid" as an insult. trust me, when you're in your 40s you don't really give a shit how old anyone is. hth.

If you aren't some uninformed kid then me referring to you as one, since it's how your acting, wouldn't upset you so much. If you don't want to be a kid then act like an adult and admit your comment was irrelevant and out of place since I was speaking specifically about ikitar. Come on, man up kid

[Llodd]

If something gets banned you can't really claim it as a legit classic strat.

[Lhancelot]

It's like you're commenting on shit you obviously have no concept of. At least refrain from speaking from a place of misinformation kiddo.


Again, perhaps you should refrain from speaking on shit you have no comprehension of. Kiddo

you're clearly just some uninformed little joke speaking on topics they clearly don't comprehend. Keep making shit up though, looking great

You can always tell someone who lost an argument due to their need to deflect rather than admit they confused the targets in question and was mistaking. It's called being an adult and admitting when you were wrong.


Such condescension. :(

[Maner]

Such condescension. :(

Funny how it's all warranted due to some joke flapping his mouth without comprehending was was said

If something gets banned you can't really claim it as a legit classic strat.

And I asked them for proof of both claims earlier in this thread. I don't think anyone ever pulled lady M to the zone in on live, however the original post in this tread claims it happened and people were banned for doing it. That however does not constitute proof

[rollin5k]

Maner coming in sweaty hot like a true career nerd.

[Maner]

Maner coming in sweaty hot like a true career nerd.

Except your start date is 3 years earlier than mine? Who is the real career nerd? We all play on a 15 year old simulated server. Trying to degrade me by calling me a nerd just shows how insecure you are with yourself.

[maskedmelon]

melons!

[thufir]

So in reality the issue is I was specifically talking about ikitar and then you came in making a generic reference to somehow disprove my claim regarding ikitar? Lol you're dismissed kiddo



If you aren't some uninformed kid then me referring to you as one, since it's how your acting, wouldn't upset you so much. If you don't want to be a kid then act like an adult and admit your comment was irrelevant and out of place since I was speaking specifically about ikitar. Come on, man up kid
this isn't upsetting. don't worry about it. just keep on truckin'. I tried to help.

[rollin5k]

To be a true nerd you must have the pixel passion gene though, so I'm just sweaty

[MilanderTruewield]

Staff allows killing at ToV ent because Awakened's spot is LTK and Aftermath and Awakened both do not want Aftermath also using LTK. HoT is unuseable, therefore entrance is the only other spot useable for the current method of pulling dragons.

I can confirm that Awakened gives zero shits where they fight the mob. Matter of fact, they trained about 30 drakes to the entrance, wiping Rustle and AG and while they were at it, caused a FTE to expire thus securing their own FTE of a very sought-after dragon, all while "pulling" another dragon to the zone in.

[arsenalpow]

People don't fight VP dragons on the zone in pad, should be the same courtesy for ToV, make the first two cubbies the default kill spots, problem solved.

[Lhancelot]

Trying to degrade me by calling me a nerd just shows how insecure you are with yourself.

It's a term of endearment, man. When someone calls you a nerd and think they are insulting you, they are obviously living in the 90s still.

I want to offer you a link of a youtube video that just might inspire you to handle the slights of anonymous internet forumquesters better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWlot6h_JM

[Erati]

I will just leave this here

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203365&highlight=zone+pulling

We had a discussion about this over a year ago before Velious was released and the issue could have been solved before the release. It was ignored and here we are - BTW - we ( Awakened) tried to pull dragons as much as possible to LTK or those entrance cubbies but like Dald points out some dragons gate and pushing around those corners just isnt that straight forward with super big dragon models. The only mobs that should be pulled to the zone in are Vulak, LTK, Cekenar and Feshlak as those are the only dragons that gate, interrupting a CH on like Jorr or Gozz is much more trivial as the spell is a longer cast and you dont need the contsant movement like you do to stop a gate

if this is something that devs feel should be disallowed maybe a compromise could be reached so the server understands that unless one of the gating dragons is engaged, the zone in is typically safe. asking guilds to not utilize a great spot though is a bit of a reach especially when we are talking about very rare chances that zoning into tov can kill you.

I am confused though, why does Temple Veeshan have to be safe again? Its a top end raid zone not really a Day care center to drop kids off to afk.

[Detoxx]

The guild leader summit was called as a result of training to ToV ent. We clearly could have fixed this by also moving the racing line up to the stairs. /s

There is no reason every guild cannot just pull to one of the two cubbies past entrance. It has been proven that gating mobs can be pushed there.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234635

[thufir]

I am confused though, why does Temple Veeshan have to be safe again? Its a top end raid zone not really a Day care center to drop kids off to afk.
fwiw, it's a quest hub for dragon faction people as well.

when I got dubious with CoV on live during this era I zoned into ToV just to check it out. being live, nobody was there and I was able to look around to my heart's content, at least until I stepped into NToV and saw the scowling guardians.

still, shit's classic.

[Erati]

fwiw, it's a quest hub for dragon faction people as well.

when I got dubious with CoV on live during this era I zoned into ToV just to check it out. being live, nobody was there and I was able to look around to my heart's content, at least until I stepped into NToV and saw the scowling guardians.

still, shit's classic.

the zone in is not a quest hub - in fact the only quests in the zone involve poopsocking the named dragons in WTOV after killing the highly contested Doze in East.

I guess Halls of Testing is what you mean and guilds do typically gather at the ent to COTH in but raid guilds consistently warn the zone whenever pulls are happening so if its straggling members that join your HoT raids late part of this issue, those players are just not being informed by their own guildies about what is occurring already in the raid zone. Pulling in ToV has become much more clearly communicated and safer since the summit. We didnt even announce pulls in the past but now everytime a dragon moves somewhere, its announced to the zone.

[thufir]

the zone in is not a quest hub - in fact the only quests in the zone involve poopsocking the named dragons in WTOV after killing the highly contested Doze in East.

I guess Halls of Testing is what you mean and guilds do typically gather at the ent to COTH in but raid guilds consistently warn the zone whenever pulls are happening so if its straggling members that join your HoT raids late part of this issue, those players are just not being informed by their own guildies about what is occurring already in the raid zone. Pulling in ToV has become much more clearly communicated and safer since the summit. We didnt even announce pulls in the past but now everytime a dragon moves somewhere, its announced to the zone.
correct that the zone in isn't a quest hub, but the zone is - you have to walk through the zone in to get to the WToV dragons after all. =)

anyway these things are both fine, either going to wtov dragons to talk or etov dragons to kill, as long as you aren't getting nuked at the zone in by people who have pulled dragons to entrance, which is why it was banned on live.

yes you could do due diligence or w/e, most of the top end guilds are surely spying on the others anyway. this would be a change that helps casuals that just want to poke around, maybe little groups that want to kill drakes in the cubbies, etc.

someone said awhile back that everyone would adjust if they changed it. I agree, everyone would. that's why it's so puzzling there's such resistance to the concept.

[nyclin]

fix binding rules in TOV, make p99 classic again

[nyclin]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234635

Nate makes some terrible posts but I just wanted to point out the /s at the end of his first sentence

But sure, lets go back to talking about how you want the entire server to change the way they operate just so you can continue pulling to zone in

[Maner]

correct that the zone in isn't a quest hub, but the zone is - you have to walk through the zone in to get to the WToV dragons after all. =)

anyway these things are both fine, either going to wtov dragons to talk or etov dragons to kill, as long as you aren't getting nuked at the zone in by people who have pulled dragons to entrance, which is why it was banned on live.

yes you could do due diligence or w/e, most of the top end guilds are surely spying on the others anyway. this would be a change that helps casuals that just want to poke around, maybe little groups that want to kill drakes in the cubbies, etc.

someone said awhile back that everyone would adjust if they changed it. I agree, everyone would. that's why it's so puzzling there's such resistance to the concept.

Exactly which TOV quests are you doing without also raiding in TOV? Please provide proof of the claim that it was banned on live. A statement like that should be easy to prove with the GM ruling that it was banned. Im sorry that your day was ruined and you couldn't go talk to gozz about a quest you can't hope to complete. But please blame it on the raiding scene and not the fact that you refuse to be a part of it.

[nyclin]

also feel the need to point out this choice quote from Pint which has never been honored, despite Detoxx trying to hold Breaken to literally every word he posts on these forums:

If we wipe at the zone in then we will concede the mob if it kills your fte team as a result.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2241052&postcount=31

[thufir]

Exactly which TOV quests are you doing without also raiding in TOV? Please provide proof of the claim that it was banned on live. A statement like that should be easy to prove with the GM ruling that it was banned. Im sorry that your day was ruined and you couldn't go talk to gozz about a quest you can't hope to complete. But please blame it on the raiding scene and not the fact that you refuse to be a part of it.
I think I'm too young to be talking to you on a school night.

[Detoxx]

also feel the need to point out this choice quote from Pint which has never been honored, despite Detoxx trying to hold Breaken to literally every word he posts on these forums:



http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2241052&postcount=31

Don't remember the last time we wiped to a dragon at entrance. Maybe a 4am Vyemm but those are fought in the cubby. Not entirely sure what your point is.

[Zekayy]

ToV isn't terribly scary if you don't have dragons being fought at at the zone in. The zone in for VP is considerably worse. For that matter, the zone in to Charasis is more dangerous than the ToV zone in sans players.

This is of course the issue, that it's the players who are making it deadly, not the game environment. But there's a lot of willful ignorance going on here and it's generally best to bow out of those discussions.

But your saying tov ent is safe? but vp is not? VP is just as safe zoning as tov is the pad is safe.

[thufir]

But your saying tov ent is safe? but vp is not? VP is just as safe zoning as tov is the pad is safe.
fair. I don't think the VP and ToV comparisons are very good, though. you can walk through much of ToV and leave safely if you are on the proper faction. that isn't true in VP. (or maybe it is, maybe there's some weird way to get minions of scale that I don't know about? but anyway, you can get CoV faction pretty easily and it's designed to be walked through in parts if you do.)

[Maner]

I think I'm too young to be talking to you on a school night.

Funny how you choose to deflect when you realize you have talked yourself into a corner...

fair. I don't think the VP and ToV comparisons are very good, though. you can walk through much of ToV and leave safely if you are on the proper faction. that isn't true in VP. (or maybe it is, maybe there's some weird way to get minions of scale that I don't know about? but anyway, you can get CoV faction pretty easily and it's designed to be walked through in parts if you do.)

So you're upset that you aren't able to walk through a zone that you, by yourself, can't get anything from and in fact need a raid force to do anything in?

Again, which WToV quests are you trying to do, by yourself, that raids killing at the zone in, 1 day a week atm, are preventing you from completing?

What experiences are you personally are being prevented from having in WToV, by yourself?

June 2013 and not a single 60, kinda proves that you don't have the knowledge base to comment on these issues to begin with.

[Lammy]

Do you do anything besides talk down to everyone, Maner?

[Cecily]

There's no reason you shouldn't be able to safely AFK at ToV entrance or LTK on a CoV factioned character. Some guilds do like to think they own the zone, however, and don't mind killing you if you get in their way.

[thufir]

Funny how you choose to deflect when you realize you have talked yourself into a corner...



So you're upset that you aren't able to walk through a zone that you, by yourself, can't get anything from and in fact need a raid force to do anything in?

Again, which WToV quests are you trying to do, by yourself, that raids killing at the zone in, 1 day a week atm, are preventing you from completing?

What experiences are you personally are being prevented from having in WToV, by yourself?

June 2013 and not a single 60, kinda proves that you don't have the knowledge base to comment on these issues to begin with.
this is why you don't understand any of this, you think things are all about you in general, and so you think everyone else must also be talking about their own personal experiences and how they are affected by whatever.

some of us were old enough to be raiding in tov during live in this era, btw. as adults.

it's ok man, hopefully some day you will look back on this thread and be properly embarrassed about it. in the meantime, well.

[Maner]

this is why you don't understand any of this, you think things are all about you in general, and so you think everyone else must also be talking about their own personal experiences and how they are affected by whatever.

some of us were old enough to be raiding in tov during live in this era, btw. as adults.

it's ok man, hopefully some day you will look back on this thread and be properly embarrassed about it. in the meantime, well.

I raided VP during its live era, so trust me I remember how TOV was done. On the server I played on it was a race for aary and whoever killed aary had 48 hours to clear all of NToV, which we then dungeon crawled through. I'm not sure how you get that I feel it's all about me, I am asking you to go into specifics about you're claims.

You still refuse to expand on your claims because you realize they are baseless and pretty much discredit any of your other claims. I doubt you ever raided TOV in era based on the single fact you called it a COV quest hub.

Am I misrepresenting your words? I am quoting you completely and not editing anything you have said. You called TOV a COV quest hub, which quests are you referring to? Which TOV quests are you trying to finish as a 58 SK by yourself?

Do you do anything besides talk down to everyone, Maner?

Who is everyone? I'm just talking down to one person in this thread. Funny enough he refuses to answer any question forcing him to explain his claims.

[thufir]

I doubt you ever raided TOV in era based on the single fact you called it a COV quest hub.
as I like to say to people I don't really care what you believe. you don't have to believe in gravity to fall on your ass when you trip.

keep on truckin' maner. other people, you will note, are having a polite and civil version of this conversation. it's too late for you to try it now but I'm sure you can work it in for future threads.

[Maner]

as I like to say to people I don't really care what you believe. you don't have to believe in gravity to fall on your ass when you trip.

keep on truckin' maner. other people, you will note, are having a polite and civil version of this conversation. it's too late for you to try it now but I'm sure you can work it in for future threads.

Why is me asking you to explain your claims uncivilized? Making claims you know are bogus and then faking being offended when called on them is deflection and not conductive to a proper conversation or debate. If you could have stuck to your claims and proven them when asked rather than deflect, it never would have escalated to me calling you a child.

What is too late exactly? You're the only person here who is making claims and refusing to support them when asked.

[Erati]

There's no reason you shouldn't be able to safely AFK at ToV entrance or LTK on a CoV factioned character. Some guilds do like to think they own the zone, however, and don't mind killing you if you get in their way.

there are plenty of places to have extended AFKs safely, however zoning in and refusing to move from the center of the room could pose an issue if you remain there for 12+ hours I suppose.

[thufir]

If you could have stuck to your claims and proven them when asked rather than deflect, it never would have escalated to me calling you a child.
this is either the greatest or most embarrassing statement ever, depending on your point of view

[Maner]

this is either the greatest or most embarrassing statement ever, depending on your point of view

Because me calling you a child for using childish techniques, to not have to explain or prove your claims, is embarrassing to me?

[Rygar]

Well, we can at least all agree Maner gets a raging boner picking apart statements here. Careful thufir, he's building to a mighty bust

[Sadiki]

This thread is turning out to be hilarious. I decided to quickly tally up the arguments:

7x "kid", "kiddo"
3x "child", "childish"
2x "adult"
2x "joke", "little joke (alluding to kiddo?)"

Sorry Thufir, I don't think you can fight back against this. His defense is flawless.

[Swish]

This thread is turning out to be hilarious. I decided to quickly tally up the arguments:

7x "kid", "kiddo"
3x "child", "childish"
2x "adult"
2x "joke", "little joke (alluding to kiddo?)"

Sorry Thufir, I don't think you can fight back against this. His defense is flawless.

The scumbags have been playing LoL for too long I think :D

[William_Munny15]

I'm so happy I don't share a guild with this maner guy, seems a little overbearing, can someone quote all the people from A/A who tell literally everyone else on the server, "you have no idea what you're talking about you haven't been one of the zerg, so you don't know anything." Think azeth wins the best quote for that , but maner is slowly making headway

[Llodd]

We had a discussion about this over a year ago before Velious was released and the issue could have been solved before the release. It was ignored and here we are - BTW - we ( Awakened) tried to pull dragons as much as possible to LTK or those entrance cubbies but like Dald points out some dragons gate and pushing around those corners just isnt that straight forward with super big dragon models. The only mobs that should be pulled to the zone in are Vulak, LTK, Cekenar and Feshlak as those are the only dragons that gate, interrupting a CH on like Jorr or Gozz is much more trivial as the spell is a longer cast and you dont need the contsant movement like you do to stop a gate

.

And yet this is exactly what a bunch of casual scum did on their very first Feshlak who tried to gate.

Anyway this is all fluff that avoids the real problems.

Why is it you are not more interested in playing the game in the spirit of what classic everquest was ? How about something we all agree did actually happen on alot of servers: Consider Aary as the gatekeeper. We all race for fte on that and then get those 48 hours to clear to and kill dragons. Would you be up for that?

(yeah dont bother answering - you have no interest in this servers community)

edit: and just to add : when A/A/Rustle were having their tiff, and Sirks had to come in and sort the children out, CSG who were minding their own business,had to wait untill your squabble was dealt with.

[William_Munny15]

The reason we fight where we do is beacause every guild fights at west zoneout and when 200+ people in the zone in all stack you begin to desynch it happened before when bda and rampage and forsaken were in the zone so please know what your talking about before you speak again

here goes one ^ text book

[William_Munny15]

But again what does csg know? nothing

One more from this excellent everquest player

[raato]

Just clearing few things up:

1. CSG killed Cekenar prior to footrace rule by crawling to him (we ate total of 4 trains during that time made by A/As, might have been forsaken/rampage at that time), it took us approx 4 hours to complete that mission.
2. CSG didnt manage to crawl to Ikatiar after footrace rule was implemented. We trained ourselves once and then our raid recovery ate backwash from footracers trains, which was impossible to prove who's "fault" it was.
3. Europa kills Flurry Drakes at West Exit, simply because we need to practice the pulls so we actually get a proper shot at the NToV dragons once we manage to get FTE, because everyone knows that 1 hour is not enough to crawl to most NToV dragons. We used to crawl into north to kill Flurry Drakes before we started to compete on NToV dragons.

[fadetree]

Well, I don't really know the details of the raiding ruleset here on p99, but if there's some rules mechanic in place that makes it so you don't have enough time to clear to target then obviously that's the real issue, not people being annoying or dumb because they want easy mode pixels. They could still pull somewhere other than right at ZO I guess, and learn to handle problems with gate and so forth.
/shrug

[Legday]

Bring back mages.

[kotton05]

Bring back mages.

Fucking yes^ 2 per wing call it a day.

[Daldaen]

Sirken make me a GM and I'll fix the raid scene, you won't need to bother with it ever again don't worry.

[Erati]

(yeah dont bother answering - you have no interest in this servers community)


lol I had to sit through hours and hours of guild summits so we could get the initial Class C/R/FFA rotation implemented which assisted in CSG's progressional climb into high end raiding

I obviously care a great deal considering I have stuck around for so long but just make assumptions on my character based on my guild tag ( essentially what you are complaining about )

Feshlak can be pushed easily at LTK, I never said he couldnt. Vulak is quite a bit larger and he posses issues which is why I said the zone in is great for him along with the other gating dragons. Can they be pushed at LTK - yes - but I'd wager your odds are better killing it there with more margin of error in your push. Nice kill btw

[maskedmelon]

Why not adopt something along the lines of what Detoxx had proposed to bring spawns back together when they were spread throughout the week? Everyone runs to dragons, gets FTEs and then kills them on Saturday or something.

Hell, could even do away with the 1hr time limits and just agree to a window for when dragons must die (say 3:00pm EST) CSG could spend as much of their day as they like killing trash. Could even hold hands and everyone kill dragons together, awarding loot to whichever guild had gotten the FTE if they are holding up the show for some reason (preventing vulak pull or something)

Could eliminate variance and be one big happy Mario karting family ^^

[Legday]

Why not adopt something along the lines of what Detoxx had proposed to bring spawns back together when they were spread throughout the week? Everyone runs to dragons, gets FTEs and then kills them on Saturday or something.

Hell, could even do away with the 1hr time limits and just agree to a window for when dragons must die (say 3:00pm EST) CSG could spend as much of their day as they like killing trash. Could even hold hands and everyone kill dragons together, awarding loot to whichever guild had gotten the FTE if they are holding up the show for some reason (preventing vulak pull or something)

Could eliminate variance and be one big happy Mario karting family ^^

That was only suggested as a one time fix to windows that were spread horribily accross 6 days.

At the moment, Rogean and pals are being very cool about resetting the server at a more classic rate, so that problem isn't one we have had for a couple of months.

The issue with waiting a until the weekend to kill everything you FTE'd during the week is that would come out to far less dragons in the long run. The good thing about killing a dragon 20 minutes after it spawns is that the 7 day +/- 8 hour timer for it to pop again starts immediately.

If a guild can't handle a dragon in the 60 minutes after it pops (already an absurd leeway given from what used to be insta-pulls), then they should try other content or pack it in. Phinny is thata way.

Seriously though, remove 1 hour and allow mages again. Casual guilds have proven the only thing they really want is for us to not try so hard. It's obviously not going to change. Insert random reason why that is pathetic <here>.

[thufir]

Because me calling you a child for using childish techniques, to not have to explain or prove your claims, is embarrassing to me?
Probably not since nobody knows who your characters are. We are all dying to know though.

[nyclin]

the raid scene on this server is fucking cancer and is literally the reason why newer games have instanced content

also daldaen for lead GM 2017, make p99 great again

[Maner]

Probably not since nobody knows who your characters are. We are all dying to know though.

Anyone who matters knows who my characters are, as they are all named similar to this account name. But keep deflecting rather than explain how TOV is a COV quest hub, and exactly what experiences you aren't being allowed to have, by yourself in TOV.

[justinf1000]

I haven't been to TOV on this server yet, but this tactic sounds lame as hell.

However with an FTE timer of 1 hour, i don't really know what an alternative would be.

Good luck people!

[maskedmelon]

That was only suggested as a one time fix to windows that were spread horribily accross 6 days.

At the moment, Rogean and pals are being very cool about resetting the server at a more classic rate, so that problem isn't one we have had for a couple of months.

The issue with waiting a until the weekend to kill everything you FTE'd during the week is that would come out to far less dragons in the long run. The good thing about killing a dragon 20 minutes after it spawns is that the 7 day +/- 8 hour timer for it to pop again starts immediately.

If a guild can't handle a dragon in the 60 minutes after it pops (already an absurd leeway given from what used to be insta-pulls), then they should try other content or pack it in. Phinny is thata way.

Seriously though, remove 1 hour and allow mages again. Casual guilds have proven the only thing they really want is for us to not try so hard. It's obviously not going to change. Insert random reason why that is pathetic <here>.

Yeah, I understood it was only proposed as a one time fix, just seemed like broader application could fix some things. The decreased dragon issue could be fixed by decreasing respawn to 6days+/-1hr. Run for dragons Friday or Saturday. Kill them on Sunday. Of course if no dragons are getting killed, then that could complicate races :3 could cut respawn down to 1day+/-5days or whatever so long as Sunday (or Saturday or whatever day was the designated kill day), so there would be no fewer dragons.

Or just hard code dragon spawns to random time on Tuesdays, or whatever other day and stipulate they must die by the EoD Sunday, or they become FFA.

Our system is already unclassic may as well make something that works for everyone.

Only issue would be Vulak with his summoning of other dragons, which really ought to just be removed because it is rarely a factor given the current environment.

[Maner]

Yeah, I understood it was only proposed as a one time fix, just seemed like broader application could fix some things. The decreased dragon issue could be fixed by decreasing respawn to 6days+/-1hr. Run for dragons Friday or Saturday. Kill them on Sunday. Of course if no dragons are getting killed, then that could complicate races :3 could cut respawn down to 1day+/-5days or whatever so long as Sunday (or Saturday or whatever day was the designated kill day), so there would be no fewer dragons.

Or just hard code dragon spawns to random time on Tuesdays, or whatever other day and stipulate they must die by the EoD Sunday, or they become FFA.

Our system is already unclassic may as well make something that works for everyone.

Only issue would be Vulak with his summoning of other dragons, which really ought to just be removed because it is rarely a factor given the current environment.

Actually, I think vulak and his summoning of other dragons played a part in the last 3-4 vulak spawns.

[thufir]

Anyone who matters knows who my characters are, as they are all named similar to this account name.
good to know, ty

[bktroost]

Probably because they weren't afforded the opportunity to do so. Anytime CSG tries to crawl they get obliterated with "pulls". A/A isn't going to just halt operations and let someone else clear content normally.

As Chest says, we've tried it. Been there, ate that 4-way concrete and didn't like the taste. We went the political route and spent lots of time discussing with leaders of guilds as to the kind of server they wanted to create and to the GMs and eventually the Devs. Everyone at every level agreed that it was painful and hurt their real lives but that they wanted it no other way.

So if we are all going to drink the pixel poison, I might as well flavor it with kool aid too.

[Zekayy]

And yet this is exactly what a bunch of casual scum did on their very first Feshlak who tried to gate.

Anyway this is all fluff that avoids the real problems.

Why is it you are not more interested in playing the game in the spirit of what classic everquest was ? How about something we all agree did actually happen on alot of servers: Consider Aary as the gatekeeper. We all race for fte on that and then get those 48 hours to clear to and kill dragons. Would you be up for that?

(yeah dont bother answering - you have no interest in this servers community)

edit: and just to add : when A/A/Rustle were having their tiff, and Sirks had to come in and sort the children out, CSG who were minding their own business,had to wait untill your squabble was dealt with.

Sontalak is the gatekeeper for tov only aftermath has killed him recently.

[Detoxx]

I've tried several avenues to fix this raid scene. I am more open to anything than any other top guild leader has ever been on this server. I brought all these rotations to the table, I have advocated for a C, R, FFA system minus ToV (as it was before, the end raid zone was not included) and all have been met with resistance.

There's two top guilds right now. One is open to discussions on bettering this raid scene. The other one is hellbent on doing things their way. It takes two to tango...

[Freakish]

And a lot more guilds than A/A kill dragons in ToV, that's a terrible idea. During Kunark only TMO / IB would even step foot into VP so it made sense.

[Kender]

On live on bertox the guild that killed aaryonar had 48 hours to crawl around ntov killing as many as they could before the rest became open season

everything before aary including east and west wings were open season.

also, flurry drakes and iki were usually pulled into the hub to be killed (where east north and west wings all start). aary was killed on the ramp where he spawns

zone in was a no go for fighting in

[coki]

Vallon zek, people would crawl ToV, use wall corners to duck aoe ect...
But I guarantee if they knew the tactics and had all the information we have today,
that we use on p99, they would have done it like we do here period.

on a side note for vallon zek, imagine doing a
8 hour clear of PoG, gettin set up for tunare
having a spy/mole in the guild and then the Top guild on
the server comes
in and kills everyone and takes you tunare kill...
the salt and tears ohboy!

[Pumpedup]

just park a naked 46 at ent, when people do it open doors and pull drakes

let the tears flow

[Swish]

on a side note for vallon zek, imagine doing a
8 hour clear of PoG, gettin set up for tunare
having a spy/mole in the guild and then the Top guild on
the server comes
in and kills everyone and takes you tunare kill...
the salt and tears ohboy!

lol

[dbouya]

I only read the first page or two. IIRC yes this tactic was entirely against the rules on live. Additionally the proper KC anology would be more akin to fighting venril sathir at the zone-in. Although realistically given how the named dragons in ToV operate, fighting them at ToV zone-in is basically identical to fighting trakanon at the zone-in of sebilis.

I was a hardcore as a child in 2001, but in 2016 I'm a casual so this issue doesn't directly effect me, however, it's absolutely not classic.

On live on bertox the guild that killed aaryonar had 48 hours to crawl around ntov killing as many as they could before the rest became open season

everything before aary including east and west wings were open season.

also, flurry drakes and iki were usually pulled into the hub to be killed (where east north and west wings all start). aary was killed on the ramp where he spawns

zone in was a no go for fighting in


Rules like this are basically what I remember from 2001, although 48 hours is more generous than I remember.

[Ciroco]

But I guarantee if they knew the tactics and had all the information we have today,
that we use on p99, they would have done it like we do here period.

Until the GMs stepped in, sure.

[Lhancelot]

It's very clear what's needed here. To stop these dragons from coming into the zone line area, the devs simply need to build a wall. This wall will stop all dragons and their aoe. Come on, let's make tov great again.

[Sallan]

Would be interesting to see an ogre made wall stand in the doorway blocking movements

[coki]

nvm

[Salahdin]

This is 2000 everquest in 2016, soon to be 2017.

Also its pixels not rl

Gl spending 10 hrs a day in ntov tho if thats what makes u happy.

[Llodd]

lol I had to sit through hours and hours of guild summits so we could get the initial Class C/R/FFA rotation implemented which assisted in CSG's progressional climb into high end raiding

I obviously care a great deal considering I have stuck around for so long but just make assumptions on my character based on my guild tag ( essentially what you are complaining about )

Feshlak can be pushed easily at LTK, I never said he couldnt. Vulak is quite a bit larger and he posses issues which is why I said the zone in is great for him along with the other gating dragons. Can they be pushed at LTK - yes - but I'd wager your odds are better killing it there with more margin of error in your push. Nice kill btw

Well all odds will favour all dragons being killed at the zone in. But that doesn't mean you should do it. So don't.

CSG didnt exist prior to or during the C/R/FFA era. It came into being as a result of your older guild + Div/bda breaking of the rotation. I won't deny it may have sped up the process of the CSG guilds climb into high end raiding, but that was an inevitability anyway.

And it's perfectly reasonable to make assumptions of a player based on their guild tag. Everyone under their respective guildtags is an ambassador for that guild. Your guilds actions is a reflection of you as a single entity, and vice versa. If it wasn't and you had integrity you'd leave.

So what happened to you Eratani, did the pixel lust grab hold and now it wont let go ?

[kotton05]

The solution isn't simple when every pixel must be gobbled up to awakened who log in 90+ for more than one encounter. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Why would they risk losing pixels by changing anything?

its hard to take a discussion seriously when the supposed top guild is willing to KS ring 8 rolls (yes there is fraps and eisley wtf is wrong with you, how could you do that to snacks???!) along with taking an hour to kill koi when every week y'all kill it flawless without trains to ent... but when you won't get a shot at vulak it all the sudden it takes trains to ent and immense rule lawyering.

Gtfo out of here with the bush league manipulation that violates the current set of rules plz:)

[arsenalpow]

Well all odds will favour all dragons being killed at the zone in. But that doesn't mean you should do it. So don't.

CSG didnt exist prior to or during the C/R/FFA era. It came into being as a result of your older guild + Div/bda breaking of the rotation. I won't deny it may have sped up the process of the CSG guilds climb into high end raiding, but that was an inevitability anyway.

And it's perfectly reasonable to make assumptions of a player based on their guild tag. Everyone under their respective guildtags is an ambassador for that guild. Your guilds actions is a reflection of you as a single entity, and vice versa. If it wasn't and you had integrity you'd leave.

So what happened to you Eratani, did the pixel lust grab hold and now it wont let go ?

CSG may not have existed in name, but those guilds working together to down raid targets (they each wanted their own slots but wanted to ally for kills as needed, essentially double / triple dipping) was one of the reasons the rotation broke in the first place, those relationships had existed for a very long time.

[Llodd]

CSG may not have existed in name, but those guilds working together to down raid targets (they each wanted their own slots but wanted to ally for kills as needed, essentially double / triple dipping) was one of the reasons the rotation broke in the first place, those relationships had existed for a very long time.

here we go again :rolleyes:

[-Catherin-]

CSG may not have existed in name, but those guilds working together to down raid targets (they each wanted their own slots but wanted to ally for kills as needed, essentially double / triple dipping) was one of the reasons the rotation broke in the first place, those relationships had existed for a very long time.

^

This right here. It was going on for a very long time actually, and was one of the big reasons I requested to be removed from those FAP (lol) forums, and from any position of leadership in the raid scene in general. Anyone who had access to those discussions knows how absolutely rediculous the entire thing became. Literally officer RnF.

Things were being taken advantage of and the guilds that worked hard to get the entire agreement in place were pretty much getting walked all over. It's just another example of why we can't have nice things. With the wide spread of different mindsets and play styles in this game I stand by that there will never be an agreement among every guild that does not involve some sort of GM intervention. But I WOULD be happy if I was proven wrong on this one. I just think it's very unlikely.

A kudos to BDA, Divinity, and Taken for trying to deal with it as long as they did. I was not as patient :p

Ironically enough, the entire thing fell apart like 2 weeks after I withdrew ;) It's not always bullshit just because Chest said it!

If I had known that was going to happen I probably would have stuck around. Boy, some people would have hated that!

[arsenalpow]

They didn't want to be forced to ally and share a single rotation slot, yet here we are now. CSG still settling for whatever scraps A/A have decided to give them. In a year CSG will be no closer to a Vulak kill. Nice raid scene.

[Daldaen]

And thus why instances are better.

Just emulate instances here since we are beyond the timeline at this point. Throw a 4 hour respawn on all dragons and call it a day. Nerds are nerds and I'm sure the first week theyd contest every Dozekar and Eashen spawning every 4 hours. Eventually theyd burn out pick a few days a week to raid to get their pixel fill and the other days of the week casuals could crawl into NTOV to their liking.

[FatMice]

The solution isn't simple when every pixel must be gobbled up to awakened who log in 90+ for more than one encounter. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Why would they risk losing pixels by changing anything?

its hard to take a discussion seriously when the supposed top guild is willing to KS ring 8 rolls (yes there is fraps and eisley wtf is wrong with you, how could you do that to snacks???!) along with taking an hour to kill koi when every week y'all kill it flawless without trains to ent... but when you won't get a shot at vulak it all the sudden it takes trains to ent and immense rule lawyering.

Gtfo out of here with the bush league manipulation that violates the current set of rules plz:)

Guess Rampage allying with them, giving them plat for raid recharges, showing them pull strategies, then merging with them, was all a terrible idea. Blame yourself and your core group of ex-Rampage leaders.

[RedXIII]

Raid Scene is perfect, all we need atm is clear rules for some content like CT, Vulak because player agreements doesnt work.

If you want instanced content and freepixels, phinny is that way --->

Everquest was never meant to be casual, thats what we had on Morell-Thule, two guilds fighting for everything everytime with clear rules. #classic.

Thanks Nilbog, Rogean, Sirken, Braknar and the whole p99 staff.

[Joyelle]

I am more open to anything than any other top guild leader has ever been on this server.

You sound like Cheeto Jesus

http://i.imgur.com/QVcGB4z.jpg

[zanderklocke]

CSG may not have existed in name, but those guilds working together to down raid targets (they each wanted their own slots but wanted to ally for kills as needed, essentially double / triple dipping) was one of the reasons the rotation broke in the first place, those relationships had existed for a very long time.

Instances are a necessity to a fair and equitable raid scene in MMOs that avoids player complaints and CSR time; all MMO modern designers realize this. In Project 1999, problems will always emerge related to rotations. The problem with a single rotation slot rotation spanning all mobs in non-instanced EQ is that it doesn't make sense with the difference in difficulty of mobs and the unexpected variance of raid pops, as evidenced by the Kunark situation we had.

If a group of 3 guilds share a rotation slot on Gorenaire, should they have to share a rotation slot on Maestro? Alternatively, should they have to even be required to be on the rotation for Gorenaire if they don't want to be? A rotation in EQ is always going to be weird arbitrary comparisons rules such as if you can't kill "X" mob alone, you should not be allowed to kill "Y" mob alone. The people with more capable guilds will always want difficult gatekeeper mobs, as evidenced by the multiple revisions of the "mandated" new agreement to prevent other guilds from getting better targets.

That is the problem with how guilds could never agree on a rotation; there was a difference in opinion on how guilds should be "required" to participate in a rotation spanning multiple mobs. There is no way 9 or so guilds would have ever permanently agreed on anything because of this.

I always thought that rotations would make sense per mob, but that's because I'm a casual loser. What I thought would make sense is if you share a slot once on a mob with another guild, you have to always share that slot with the other guild. If you can kill a mob individually, you have to always kill that mob individually. However, obviously, people think guilds would break apart and "game" the system if rotation slots were established per mob as opposed to across the board of all mobs because many players don't believe guilds would not game this system by having break off guilds and only participating on mobs with the best loot. During the Class R rotation, maybe guilds gamed the system, maybe they didn't. I'm not sure, and this will always be a point of contention and debate.

Guilds will never permanently agree to a rotation that isn't staff mandated because players will find loopholes or ways to push back in the best interests of their size guild to get the most loot possible. People don't really care about sharing in a video game, and people tend to not play nice. It's a video game; it's not like reputation and kindness really matter anyway. The fact that people are still wall staring and FTE racing shows it's all about the loot or bragging rights.

[arsenalpow]

The fact that people are still wall staring and FTE racing shows it's all about the loot or bragging rights.

I would also add that a large part of things is growing and progressing as a guild. There have literally been dozens of guilds that tried to grow through the raid scene only to smash against that ceiling whereas the more established guilds had years of infrastructure and knowledge built up that allowed them to maintain whatever level of content they were comfortable chasing.

P99 does not allow for a guild to grow and fully experience the server, period. Guilds either have to be ok with doing scraps / shitty planar clears, or they have to adopt the soul crushing methods that A/A have made commonplace, there is no middle ground. This is why guilds die, or get absorbed to fuel the infernal machines of Awakened and Aftermath which is just a revolving door of warm bodies that allows them to tread water at the top of this cesspool.

I took BDA to Phinny because I wanted my guild to grow and flourish, not to watch people quit because the raid scene was toxic. Instancing content or sharing is the only way, and we know A/A can't share because they won't ever be forced to and because the entire thing would fall apart without loot to fuel the machine.

[Lhancelot]

That is the problem with how guilds could never agree on a rotation; there was a difference in opinion on how guilds should be "required" to participate in a rotation spanning multiple mobs. There is no way 9 or so guilds would have ever permanently agreed on anything because of this.


Just form one guild where all raid guilds combine into one giant zerg of nerds, this would solve the problem. It's the only way.

[fadetree]

In VP/TOV, randomize timers, allot days to guilds. Big guilds get their own day, groups of smaller guilds get combo days. No spawn on your day? too bad. Can't kill it all on your day? Oh well, grats next day. 1 day per cycle is free for all. So, if there are 3 top guilds, a, b, and c, and three groups of smaller guilds a1, b1, c1, the cycle would go
a,b,c,a1,b1,c1,open,a,b,c,a1,b1,c1,open. Extra open days inserted as needed to make sure the day of week pattern rotates. Guild grouping for smaller guilds done by CS, and subject to change at their whim.
Guilds earn a spot in a day by completing lesser content or being invited by a guild who has a spot. Days are tradeable. If you are caught breaking day, you lose your next to the folks you barged in on.

Complicated? Yeah. More work for CS/guides, but a wiki/subforum to do the tracking and day trading. All CS has to do is to run scans against zone population and guild memberships, probably could automate. Dropping or changing guild tag takes a cycle to 'clear', i.e., you are still considered to be in your old guild/unguilded for a full cycle after you switch.

Enforced by GM's/guides, but only as far as who can be in zone that day, tactics are open season.

All I can think of, I'm sure its full of holes and has been brought up before.

[kotton05]

there are already non compete agreements amongst certain guilds. It's a very thin line but it's there. But it revolve around pixels that suck for the most part like trak nag vox so there is a hope a greater more finite rule set will come into play. As it stands now trains are legal I think. Just hoping I'm around for the next vulak so I can have my fun too like awakened, and they'll never know since the toon will be tagged awakened lol������

[radda]

This is 2000 everquest in 2016, soon to be 2017.

Also its pixels not rl

Gl spending 10 hrs a day in ntov tho if thats what makes u happy.

Forum join date and a signature full of characters

[zanderklocke]

In VP/TOV, randomize timers, allot days to guilds. Big guilds get their own day, groups of smaller guilds get combo days. No spawn on your day? too bad. Can't kill it all on your day? Oh well, grats next day. 1 day per cycle is free for all. So, if there are 3 top guilds, a, b, and c, and three groups of smaller guilds a1, b1, c1, the cycle would go
a,b,c,a1,b1,c1,open,a,b,c,a1,b1,c1,open. Extra open days inserted as needed to make sure the day of week pattern rotates. Guild grouping for smaller guilds done by CS, and subject to change at their whim.
Guilds earn a spot in a day by completing lesser content or being invited by a guild who has a spot. Days are tradeable. If you are caught breaking day, you lose your next to the folks you barged in on.

Complicated? Yeah. More work for CS/guides, but a wiki/subforum to do the tracking and day trading. All CS has to do is to run scans against zone population and guild memberships, probably could automate. Dropping or changing guild tag takes a cycle to 'clear', i.e., you are still considered to be in your old guild/unguilded for a full cycle after you switch.

Enforced by GM's/guides, but only as far as who can be in zone that day, tactics are open season.

All I can think of, I'm sure its full of holes and has been brought up before.

I appreciate your willingness to throw an idea forward, but just look at the complexity that exists in your plan with completely arbitrary made up rules. What happens when new guilds emerge that want to be part of a rotation?

There is no long-term solution that will ever please everyone and work on Project 1999 because instances and enforced rotations don't exist. Furthermore, some of the sociopaths on the top would never want an established rotation and play because they want to make sure others get denied content in a non-PVP game. I remember TMO charging millions of platinum they probably didn't need for certain epics just because they could: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81892

If anyone ever makes a blue server with an active population of at least 150 players that is instanced through Velious and ends at Velious, please let me know. I would like that server a lot.

[Pumpedup]

there is a long term solution, 1 raiding guild

that way if anyone else tries to pull something just train them till they all die and quit

then they will join your guild ( thats how red99 has been since launch )

[gummab]

here we go again :rolleyes:

Comedy hour started early is this thread ;)

[Lhancelot]

there is a long term solution, 1 raiding guild

that way if anyone else tries to pull something just train them till they all die and quit

then they will join your guild ( thats how red99 has been since launch )

Hey, I already suggested this! No one wants to listen to reason though.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

Make one giant zerg raiding guild already!

Then you all can have your pixels and eat it too.

[kotton05]

it's how vp was for a long time. Tov would be fun to train in...I'm almost certain I would call off work on respawn days just to corpse camp a guild or a few folks in particular with some ancient wyverns ready to touch someone and mr. Frost guardian breaking their FD's.

no rules tov plz sirken then we can all move on. Only people from the old train wars on p99 are mostly rustle and aftermath. Could the class r from back then deal with it? I imagine waiting for an entire guild cr for 6+ hours would be interesting

[Whirled]

Hey, I already suggested this! No one wants to listen to reason though.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

Make one giant zerg raiding guild already!

Then you all can have your pixels and eat it too.

I thought it was, "You can lead them to the river but you can't drown them in it"

or was it, " Hey you kids get off my lawn & stop chasing that chicken across the road"

Seriously though: they have decent idea name it <The Raid> or <Raiders> *dibs on the royalties (tm)

[Lhancelot]

I thought it was, "You can lead them to the river but you can't drown them in it"

or was it, " Hey you kids get off my lawn & stop chasing that chicken across the road"

Seriously though: they have decent idea name it <The Raid> or <Raiders> *dibs on the royalties (tm)

The problem with this idea though is that the nerds who love to brag and feel superior to other nerds couldn't get off on withholding pixels from the weaker nerds.

This is the best part of being in the top poopsocking raid guild, you get to brag about how you got certain pixels while others did not, thanks to your ingenius methods of stopping the others from getting them first.

[fadetree]

I appreciate your willingness to throw an idea forward, but just look at the complexity that exists in your plan with completely arbitrary made up rules. What happens when new guilds emerge that want to be part of a rotation?

There is no long-term solution that will ever please everyone and work on Project 1999 because instances and enforced rotations don't exist. Furthermore, some of the sociopaths on the top would never want an established rotation and play because they want to make sure others get denied content in a non-PVP game. I remember TMO charging millions of platinum they probably didn't need for certain epics just because they could: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81892

If anyone ever makes a blue server with an active population of at least 150 players that is instanced through Velious and ends at Velious, please let me know. I would like that server a lot.

Complicated...mmm yeah, sorta.
Made up? All game rules are made up.
These rules are not arbitrary...maybe I miss what you mean.
When a new guild needs to be added, they get bundled with a group or a day is added to cycle length.

I get your main point though, no perfect solution.

[Whirled]

The problem with this idea though is that the nerds who love to brag and feel superior to other nerds couldn't get off on withholding pixels from the weaker nerds.

This is the best part of being in the top poopsocking raid guild, you get to brag about how you got certain pixels while others did not, thanks to your ingenius methods of stopping the others from getting them first.

Hmm.. yea, I get ya. MMO Raiding does tend to bring out the worst in some.
Flip side this: Perhaps we could make a toll booth on some of their roads and charge them a nerd tax to get out of their houses to get more hot pockets or Doctor Pepper? Perhaps this is too close to 2 wrongs don't make a right tho...

I'm confused to how many want a "better" solution and how many like the status quo though.

[arsenalpow]

Hmm.. yea, I get ya. MMO Raiding does tend to bring out the worst in some.
Flip side this: Perhaps we could make a toll booth on some of their roads and charge them a nerd tax to get out of their houses to get more hot pockets or Doctor Pepper? Perhaps this is too close to 2 wrongs don't make a right tho...

I'm confused to how many want a "better" solution and how many like the status quo though.

Every single guild but A/A wants a "better" solution and A/A absolutely does not care as long as the system allows them to dominate with their numbers / infrastructure / and tendency to play a shit ton.

[Vianna]

Until the GMs stepped in, sure.

GM's largely did not step in that often. They are more involved on this server than they ever were on live.

[Lhancelot]

Every single guild but A/A wants a "better" solution and A/A absolutely does not care as long as the system allows them to dominate with their tendency to play a shit ton.

That's sticking it to them with no lube.

[Whirled]

Every single guild but A/A wants a "better" solution and A/A absolutely does not care as long as the system allows them to dominate with their numbers / infrastructure / and tendency to play a shit ton.

aha.. hmm so the pixel BMOC doesn't like when the other players get too close to their treasures + clutches their pearls. Well, without diplomacy or the desire to even discuss any further choices it does tend to damper many other peoples game. Forcing others to play as they play is not the answer since most people do not have the freedom 24/7 to sit in front of any game for an ungodly amount of time.
Well, I can totally get why people are leaving the server for other games now & see why others went to raid on other servers. Especially when there's no chance for a civil discussion of how to make Norrath great again and the elite few just are a constant wall to other players.
If I have any of this wrong, please enlighten since I am not a raider but was thinking of doing so. After reading ... some.. of this..I'm not so sure anymore.

[justinf1000]

Instanced raiding would solve everything!

[Lhancelot]

aha.. hmm so the pixel BMOC doesn't like when the other players get too close to their treasures + clutches their pearls. Well, without diplomacy or the desire to even discuss any further choices it does tend to damper many other peoples game. Forcing others to play as they play is not the answer since most people do not have the freedom 24/7 to sit in front of any game for an ungodly amount of time.
Well, I can totally get why people are leaving the server for other games now & see why others went to raid on other servers. Especially when there's no chance for a civil discussion of how to make Norrath great again and the elite few just are a constant wall to other players.
If I have any of this wrong, please enlighten since I am not a raider but was thinking of doing so. After reading ... some.. of this..I'm not so sure anymore.

If you come to P99 for raiding, you better be capable of poopsocking for long hours and be fully prepared to kiss a lot of ass.

Without one or both qualities above you will be nothing but a bottom feeder who only gets the leftovers of pixels the coterie that runs whatever raid guild you join determines they don't want.

Even the "casual" raid guilds have hardcore members and their core groups are equally greedy for pixels, they are no different than the supposedly awful A/A guilds, only A/A have more resources to dominate more content here.

Yes, it's that bad. Do yourself a favor, don't ever raid here. It will kill your gaming soul.

[Whirled]

If you come to P99 for raiding, you better be capable of poopsocking for long hours and be fully prepared to kiss a lot of ass.

Without one or both qualities above you will be nothing but a bottom feeder who only gets the leftovers of pixels the coterie that runs whatever raid guild you join determines they don't want.

Even the "casual" raid guilds have hardcore members and their core groups are equally greedy for pixels, they are no different than the supposedly awful A/A guilds, only A/A have more resources to dominate more content here.

Yes, it's that bad. Do yourself a favor, don't ever raid here. It will kill your gaming soul.

Very disheartening that, what used to be a cool game, has turned into what you describe. No, I don't kiss ass or sock poop. That is just not my style, nor ever will it be. What happened to just logging in and enjoying the game for what it was created to be? The escape from reality for X amount of time to enjoy your adventures is what I always remembered.

[Lhancelot]

Very disheartening that, what used to be a cool game, has turned into what you describe. No, I don't kiss ass or sock poop. That is just not my style, nor ever will it be. What happened to just logging in and enjoying the game for what it was created to be? The escape from reality for X amount of time to enjoy your adventures is what I always remembered.

I can't define what will be fun or not for you, I only speak from a jaded perspective which is fully subjective. Some will agree with me, and some will say I am a liar.

Honestly, I would recommend you enjoying the journey (as you probably have been doing), and when you get to 60 then try raiding. Do your research, and then join a raid guild, try it for yourself.

I personally find leveling a character to 60 more fun, and I also generally find the behavior of raid guild members typically unappealing, so structured raiding has turned out to not be my thing.

I now log in, do what I want, and I have zero pressure of having to meet raid requirements. I also have more control over who I associate with in the game. I am not forced to have to coexist with members of a raid guild which many of whom I don't share a likeness of mentality with.

To each their own though. You might like raiding here. I do not.

[Whirled]

I can't define what will be fun or not for you, I only speak from a jaded perspective which is fully subjective. Some will agree with me, and some will say I am a liar.

Honestly, I would recommend you enjoying the journey (as you probably have been doing), and when you get to 60 then try raiding. Do your research, and then join a raid guild, try it for yourself.

I personally find leveling a character to 60 more fun, and I also generally find the behavior of raid guild members typically unappealing, so structured raiding has turned out to not be my thing.

I now log in, do what I want, and I have zero pressure of having to meet raid requirements. I also have more control over who I associate with in the game. I am not forced to have to coexist with members of a raid guild which many of whom I don't share a likeness of mentality with.

To each their own though. You might like raiding here. I do not.

I appreciate all opinions, whatever side you may fall on, so thank you for your perspective. You describe pretty much how I play. Doing what I want - when I want. I'll add though that my time is usually very limited and I'm quite sure if I bailed out of raid X because of RL responsibilities - I'd lose some points or whatever they use for their scoring.

Actually, I do have 1 character close to 60 but I don't foresee myself running to the nearest raid guild when that finally happens. One of my focuses was to see if things had changed from when I first started here.

If anyone else reading this has other views, please share your side to this as this could lead to a good book one day.

[Crawdad]

Raiding in EQ is like being a lobster in a bucket. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q8Ob7noYys). You guys have the benefit of this being a 17 year old game and avoiding the shitshow that is racing/FTE and instead trying to work on some kind of "community" here, but I guess its too much entertainment to lawyer one another to death. The loot isn't going anywhere. Pulling to ToV entrance... Jesus. I'd DT every one of you if it were up to me. You guys really take advantage of the CSM's here, you get entirely too much of a say.

[kotton05]

I wish I wrote crawdad on the ballot

[Teako]

Very disheartening that, what used to be a cool game, has turned into what you describe. No, I don't kiss ass or sock poop. That is just not my style, nor ever will it be. What happened to just logging in and enjoying the game for what it was created to be? The escape from reality for X amount of time to enjoy your adventures is what I always remembered.

This is called "casual gameplay" and is totally fine.

The alternative spectrum is called "hardcore gameplay" and is totally fine.

Neither way is the "right" way to play games. Condemning either simply because you prefer the other is incredibly stupid. Let people play the way they want to play, and don't let it effect you.

[Lhancelot]

Neither way is the "right" way to play games. Condemning either simply because you prefer the other is incredibly stupid. Let people play the way they want to play, and don't let it effect you.

This statement could apply to a lot of things... Just saying. :p

[maskedmelon]

I enjoy casual encounters with dragons and generally doing whatever I feel like in my limited playtime ^^ Not all peeps in top guilds are turds. In fact, I would say most are not. Of course I am pretty inexperienced with regard to guilds and may just be lucky ^^ I've fun at it too. LOTS of fun. But then again, I always do ^.~v

[Whirled]

This is called "casual gameplay" and is totally fine.

The alternative spectrum is called "hardcore gameplay" and is totally fine.

Neither way is the "right" way to play games. Condemning either simply because you prefer the other is incredibly stupid. Let people play the way they want to play, and don't let it effect you.

I don't let it affect me. Nor did I condemn anything. I was curious and asking questions about the raid scene here which has an over whelming populace wanting change due to numerous issues that anyone could find throughout this forum. At a first glance, your attitude is part of the problem, since you assume much and insult freely.

This statement could apply to a lot of things... Just saying.

^Well said & succinct.

I enjoy casual encounters with dragons and generally doing whatever I feel like in my limited playtime ^^ Not all peeps in top guilds are turds. In fact, I would say most are not. Of course I am pretty inexperienced with regard to guilds and may just be lucky ^^ I've fun at it too. LOTS of fun. But then again, I always do ^.~v

Yes, apparently you are fortunate to be a part of something when you do have the free time to sit down & play this game. That was one of my goals here, to find perhaps other like minded people. My schedule is pretty harsh at times so with no concrete time frames, it would be sporadic