MIN/MAXING A ROGUE'S GLOVE SLOT

[skarlorn]

Hi, Borgnach Snatchgrabber level 23 Dwarven Rogue here. I currently have Banded Gloves 7 AC and Elf-Hide GLoves 4 AC +5 AGI +5 DEX.

I'm not really sure how much AGI and DEX are going to help. Are any of my rogue based abilities DEX checks? Perhaps PP and PL

[RDawg816]

Perhaps an easier question would be to ask how often you're getting hit.... do you think that 3ac is better than 5agi and 5dex? Unless you're hesitant to lose your chain look I'd use the elf-hide.

[Doctor Jeff]

traps, poisons, and chance to hit are just a few important things affected by your dex.

[Cecily]

Hi, Borgnach Snatchgrabber level 23 Dwarven Rogue here. I currently have Banded Gloves 7 AC and Elf-Hide GLoves 4 AC +5 AGI +5 DEX.

I'm not really sure how much AGI and DEX are going to help. Are any of my rogue based abilities DEX checks? Perhaps PP and PL

STR is the only attribute that matters until end-game, and then STA is more important. Dex isn't a combat stat besides proc rate.

[mev]

traps, poisons, and chance to hit are just a few important things affected by your dex.

I've heard anecdotally that chance to hit is affected by dex, but I haven't seen any evidence for this. The EQEmu code doesn't use dex for hit chance (see https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/7c40bcff533240c9c0f62825465af9dc185aa47f/zone/attack.cpp), and even though p99 doesn't use this, I wouldn't expect a difference as significant as dex mattering vs not mattering to be different between stock EQEmu and p99. Also, dex doesn't affect your ATK stat in the client, right?

[Jimjam]

On live rogues (and beastlords) get a defence bonus from stacking Agi. I don't think this bonus is widely known about and I don't know how long it has been part of EQ so I suppose it doesn't exist here.

[skarlorn]

Yeah doors, got prof? pretty sure DEX only afffects crits, crips, and procs for melee here

[maskedmelon]

I'd do the 7ac, personally. 5agi is like 1.5 ac, so net act less than the 7ac gloves. Dex can go finesse itself softly.

[Aesop]

dex matter on red for pvp chance to hit, it's been posted on here before by devs.

[skarlorn]

Emergency update: I am wearing elf hide gloves. If I was leveling back in classic without the insane meta game knowledge we share collectively I would Definitely be wearing the elf hide.

[Jimjam]

"forger" ... is your fine plate fake? Rumours are you are using low quality ore!

[skarlorn]

say that to my face!!!

[Samoht]

On live rogues (and beastlords) get a defence bonus from stacking Agi.

Any defensive benefit from AGI is minimal at best.

pretty sure DEX only afffects crits, crips, and procs for melee here

Rogues don't get melee crits/crips on P99. Just thrown. If you're throwing, you don't care about your DPS, anyway.

Emergency update: I am wearing elf hide gloves. If I was leveling back in classic without the insane meta game knowledge we share collectively I would Definitely be wearing the elf hide.

Just switch to Iksar Scaled Gloves (http://wiki.project1999.com/Iksar_Scaled_Gloves). They're super cheap and have decent AC, STR, and HP.

[Jimjam]

Any defensive benefit from AGI is minimal at best.I think you might not understand. For clarity, with most characters there is a greatly diminished benefit from Agi after 75. For these characters all agi does is improve avoidance.

However, rogues and beastlords gain mitigation AC from agi after a certain point. Might not work like that here, but that is how it is on live. A dev posted it.

[Samoht]

Any benefit from AGI is definitely minimal.

[skarlorn]

thanks friends but i am currently unaware of the continent of Kunark.

[Jimjam]

Gem inlaid gauntlets.

[EdTuBrutus]

Seventeen years.

Come on people. It's been 17 years.

Repeat the mantra. Stats in EQ are not meaningful. The combat mechanic makes very little reference to Stats. Stacking Str, Dex or Agi will not make a meaningful difference to how your character performs.

Does the Steel Warriors parsing data and evaluation stuff still exist? People need to be more aware of this so we don't end up grouping with so many damn Monks in Black Panther etc etc.

[EdTuBrutus]

Any benefit from AGI is definitely minimal.

Actually it's worse like that. At least with Str and Dex there is a detectable (but tiny for most classes) difference from large amounts. Agi has NO DETECTABLE, PARSABLE value over 75. None.

[Erati]

Gauntlets of Fiery Might are very cheap these days

[Jimjam]

Actually it's worse like that. At least with Str and Dex there is a detectable (but tiny for most classes) difference from large amounts. Agi has NO DETECTABLE, PARSABLE value over 75. None.

Not classic then. Rogues should get the equivalent of 12 worn AC for exceeding 99 agi (big whoop :P).

[EdTuBrutus]

Not classic then. Rogues should get the equivalent of 12 worn AC for exceeding 99 agi (big whoop :P).

I don't recall that, at all. And from the rest of your posts I'm fairly skeptical about anything you add to the thread.

One of the biggest problems with Agi (apart from it not doing anything) is that it changes the "AC" number on your character sheet but it is not actually adding anything which leads to many of the myths. For example a character with 1000 "AC" on the character sheet and 100 Agi will take less damage than a character with 1000 "AC" and 255 Agi.

The thing that is most shocking to me, as a recent returner, is that after 17 years this concept is not ubiquitous and there is still possibly a large majority of players running round thinking that stats matter.

[Jimjam]

I'm aware of mitigation and avoidance AC being lumped together for displayed AC.

I'm not talking about agi increasing 'avoidance' AC, I'm talking about the rare instances it increases 'mitigation ac'. If you google EQ live dev posts about AC you will see they sometimes mention rogues, monks and beastlords get a class bonus to worn AC. Of course the rogue bonus isn't well known about; they aren't that interested in the mechanics of tanking and against many mobs (high or low level) 12 worn equivalent isn't going to make a difference.

Sorry if I was unclear or if you just assume people don't know what they are talking about instead of reading/interpreting correctly ;).

[Jimjam]

from live, don't know if it exists here:

Now we move onto rogues. If you are a rogue and you are above level 30 and your 'Functional Agility' is greater than 75 you get AC bonuses! They are broken down more easily as an equation than in words:

LevelScaler = PlayerLevel - 26

If Agility < 80: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 1) / 4

If Agility < 85: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 2) / 4

If Agility < 90: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 3) / 4

If Agility < 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 4) / 4

If Agility >= 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 5) / 4

If ACBonus > 12: = 12

This adds on to your worn, not avoidance AC. Obviously not a hugely meaningful amount but it existed).

[EdTuBrutus]

from live, don't know if it exists here:

Now we move onto rogues. If you are a rogue and you are above level 30 and your 'Functional Agility' is greater than 75 you get AC bonuses! They are broken down more easily as an equation than in words:

LevelScaler = PlayerLevel - 26

If Agility < 80: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 1) / 4

If Agility < 85: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 2) / 4

If Agility < 90: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 3) / 4

If Agility < 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 4) / 4

If Agility >= 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 5) / 4

If ACBonus > 12: = 12

This adds on to your worn, not avoidance AC. Obviously not a hugely meaningful amount but it existed).

You had said it was a bonus at 99, using these maths it's not. At L60 they are capped at 81 Agility ((34*2)/4)= 17 > 12. The mechanic is idiotic enough to be believable as something which was implemented by the EQ Devs.

I would love to have some of the original Devs explain what they intended stats to actually do. It just seems to be a glaring screw up, or that they didn't understand how their own melee mechanic worked. There had to be SOME sort of intention for stats to be meaningful, afterall there is the entire Disempower Line of SHM spells (not to mention the idiotic Rage Line).

If the intention was that stats should be a small bonus for end level, fair enough. But that doesn't actually tally with a game which has the Haste and Slow mechanics, especially with the absolute power they gave to Slow and the bug they never fixed with Haste). A lot of the imbalances can usually be explained by the moronic focus of the game on PvP before launch, but this isn't one of those - Haste and Slow are as imbalanced in PvP as PvE.

[Jimjam]

If we are going to be pedants I said the agi needed for max bonus was over 100, and you do get the bonus at 100+, even if at lvl 60 the bonus is the same as at 81 agi. At lower levels 81 isn't enough to cap out!

You said no bonus at all after 75, but as the maths shows there is a bonus after 75 for rogues as 81 is a higher number than 75 ;). /pedantry

It's obvious to me that in classic devs did their best to make gear largely unimportant (tiny gains for +stats until the highest levels, pretty low AC hard caps going up to level 50, even the best ratio weapons before dragons (which weren't itemised at release) were not that much better than fine steel and so on). Unfortunately the Devs realised people were complete pixel addicts so tried to make stats rain from the dragons/planes/kunark onwards, even though the fundamental mechanics of the game were against this.

[EdTuBrutus]

If we are going to be pedants I said the agi needed for max bonus was over 100, and you do get the bonus at 100+, even if at lvl 60 the bonus is the same as at 81 agi. At lower levels 81 isn't enough to cap out!

You said no bonus at all after 75, but as the maths shows there is a bonus after 75 for rogues as 81 is a higher number than 75 ;). /pedantry

Well pedantically its 81 at 54 and 91 at 46. However, that was never my point and you're misunderstanding what i meant. The basic premise is still the case. Once Agi is 75, you can forget about it.

It's obvious to me that in classic devs did their best to make gear largely unimportant (tiny gains for +stats until the highest levels, pretty low AC hard caps going up to level 50, even the best ratio weapons before dragons (which weren't itemised at release) were not that much better than fine steel and so on). Unfortunately the Devs realised people were complete pixel addicts so tried to make stats rain from the dragons/planes/kunark onwards, even though the fundamental mechanics of the game were against this.

That may be part of it. But it still doesn't explain why Slow and Haste (especially Haste as it could be obtained from items) were so devastatingly effective.

[Jimjam]

Just because I made a point of interest about a minor "big whoop :p" technicality you may not previously known about does not mean I misunderstood nor disagree with the premise that agility over 75 is unimportant...

[vouss]

A lot of the imbalances can usually be explained by the moronic focus of the game on PvP before launch, but this isn't one of those - Haste and Slow are as imbalanced in PvP as PvE.

?

[skarlorn]

quick update, borgnach now wears Sporali gloves. thanks for checking in.

[Samoht]

Stats in EQ are not meaningful. The combat mechanic makes very little reference to Stats. Stacking Str, Dex or Agi will not make a meaningful difference to how your character performs.

Well that's not true at all. As long as you are under the STR cap, raising your STR is going to raise your average hit and, more importantly as a Rogue, your average backstab which ultimately means more DPS.

I'm not talking about agi increasing 'avoidance' AC, I'm talking about the rare instances it increases 'mitigation ac'. If you google EQ live dev posts about AC you will see they sometimes mention rogues, monks and beastlords get a class bonus to worn AC. Of course the rogue bonus isn't well known about; they aren't that interested in the mechanics of tanking and against many mobs (high or low level) 12 worn equivalent isn't going to make a difference.

Any amount of return that a Rogue has on AGI is still minimal at best. Do not stack AGI.

[EdTuBrutus]

Well that's not true at all. As long as you are under the STR cap, raising your STR is going to raise your average hit and, more importantly as a Rogue, your average backstab which ultimately means more DPS.


You cannot change your modal hit. The increase to median hit is absolutely minimal for all melee which does not use Str in the mechanic which, as you say, is Backstab and IIRC one of the Monk special mobs. There is no mechanic for Str to impact WAR, PAL or SHD melee damage outside of the very very small impact of overdamage (commonly called the "str bonus").

[Samoht]

You cannot change your modal hit. The increase to median hit is absolutely minimal for all melee which does not use Str in the mechanic which, as you say, is Backstab and IIRC one of the Monk special mobs. There is no mechanic for Str to impact WAR, PAL or SHD melee damage outside of the very very small impact of overdamage (commonly called the "str bonus").

You're not right just because you mention other classes. This is a thread dedicated to Rogue stats in a subforum dedicated to melee DPS classes. This subset does not include WAR, PAL, or SHD.

STR is definitely a beneficial stat for Rogues. STR directly raises your attack power which directly raises your damage done, therefore STR raises your damage done.

The only caveat is that STR has a hard cap of 255, and any STR over 255 is obviously wasted.

[EdTuBrutus]

You're not right just because you mention other classes. This is a thread dedicated to Rogue stats in a subforum dedicated to melee DPS classes. This subset does not include WAR, PAL, or SHD.

STR is definitely a beneficial stat for Rogues. STR directly raises your attack power which directly raises your damage done, therefore STR raises your damage done.

The only caveat is that STR has a hard cap of 255, and any STR over 255 is obviously wasted.

That is NOT how the mechanic works. The ATK you see on your character sheet has no meaning for the game. ATK has no influence on your To Hit. ATK has no influence on the damage per hit.

Str adds a small component to SOME hits which overall does add a very tiny amount of damage (from memory Steel Warriors put this somewhere around 1% for 100 Str). Rogues indeed get an extra benefit because the Backstab mechanic gets more from Str but you still don't get huge increases in DPS, even with massive increases in Str.

The whole "str increases attack power increases damage" has been debunked for 17 years. There is no reason for anyone to still think this way.

[skarlorn]

Got prof?

In my dream last night I had a str buff and was hitting for 30 with my burning rapier.

[Samoht]

The whole "str increases attack power increases damage" has been debunked for 17 years. There is no reason for anyone to still think this way.

No it hasn't. You're actually the first person I've seen make such a claim since I started playing here five years ago. Here's a quote from Brad McQuaid in the year 2000 (https://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0) that contradicts everything you've claimed regarding STR.

STR: determines how much you can carry; influences maximum and average damage; influences how quickly you learn many offensive skills

Here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage) is the link to read how STR works on P99.

Also, please read this (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Backstab_Damage_Calculations) for more information regarding the formula for backstab damage and how much it is greatly influenced by total STR. Tl;dr - You lose 100 damage on your max back stab if you're equipped with epic and only have 100 STR as apposed to 255 STR.

[EdTuBrutus]

No it hasn't. You're actually the first person I've seen make such a claim since I started playing here five years ago. Here's a quote from Brad McQuaid in the year 2000 (https://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0) that contradicts everything you've claimed regarding STR.



Here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage) is the link to read how STR works on P99.

Also, please read this (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Backstab_Damage_Calculations) for more information regarding the formula for backstab damage and how much it is greatly influenced by total STR. Tl;dr - You lose 100 damage on your max back stab if you're equipped with epic and only have 100 STR as apposed to 255 STR.

Go re-read your links. Carefully this time. Then actually think about what it says.

I'll accept your apology when you return.

[Samoht]

Go re-read your links. Carefully this time. Then actually think about what it says.

I'll accept your apology when you return.

This isn't the RNF forum. Please keep your conversation civil.

Also, you're not making any sense. At this point, the only person who owes an apology is you.

[EdTuBrutus]

This isn't the RNF forum. Please keep your conversation civil.

Also, you're not making any sense. At this point, the only person who owes an apology is you.

Ill give you a longer explanation then, please take the time to think about what I'm saying.

The EQ damage mechanic has two core mechanisms involved in determining your DPS from hits (let's just keep To Hit out of it as it has nothing to do with Str). When you hit, there is a significant number of Modal hits (the damage number that appears most often). And here's your first problem. The Modal damage is not changed AT ALL by Str.

Now secondly, the ONLY area where Str comes into play is in determining the Max Hit - the highest possible damage hit you can get. Str is used in the mechanic, it's outlined in the links you gave. But you only changed the MAX. The mechanic will then determine the actual value of the hit using RNG, Level, Skill, etc but NOT Str. The Modal damage has stayed the same (its the peak of the bell curve) and all you've done is stretch the curve to the right at a point when you're dealing with a small number of hits (unless your are fighting low level green mobs). Therefore, only a tiny number of hits are effected and the overall impact is small.

Statistically, what this means is that the Max Damage is not very important. Increases to your Max Damage (even quite significant ones) will not provide a meaningful increase in your DPS. It's just not how the melee damage mechanic works.

[Samoht]

The EQ damage mechanic has two core mechanisms involved in determining your DPS from hits (let's just keep To Hit out of it as it has nothing to do with Str). When you hit, there is a significant number of Modal hits (the damage number that appears most often). And here's your first problem. The Modal damage is not changed AT ALL by Str.

Not according to Brad.

Now secondly, the ONLY area where Str comes into play is in determining the Max Hit - the highest possible damage hit you can get. Str is used in the mechanic, it's outlined in the links you gave. But you only changed the MAX. The mechanic will then determine the actual value of the hit using RNG, Level, Skill, etc but NOT Str. The Modal damage has stayed the same (its the peak of the bell curve) and all you've done is stretch the curve to the right at a point when you're dealing with a small number of hits (unless your are fighting low level green mobs). Therefore, only a tiny number of hits are effected and the overall impact is small.

That's not how a bell curve works at all. You cannot just increase one end of it without adjusting the rest of the graph. The center point does move by raising the max.

Statistically, what this means is that the Max Damage is not very important. Increases to your Max Damage (even quite significant ones) will not provide a meaningful increase in your DPS. It's just not how the melee damage mechanic works.

But in the end, you do admit that there is an increase in DPS, and you just keep interjecting snide comments for the purpose of being rude on the Internet.

Also, all of this is further nullified by the fact that you keep focusing on auto attacks rather than backstabs, which have significantly increased damage from raising STR.

[EdTuBrutus]

Not according to Brad.

McQuaid said that Max and Average Damage are increased by Str. So did I. There is no conflict there.

That's not how a bell curve works at all. You cannot just increase one end of it without adjusting the rest of the graph. The center point does move by raising the max.

No, that's how a NORMAL Distribution works. As I explained, it is not a Normal Distribution because the high point DOES NOT CHANGE, and CANNOT CHANGE with increased Str. All Str does is skew a tiny portion of the distribution.

But in the end, you do admit that there is an increase in DPS, and you just keep interjecting snide comments for the purpose of being rude on the Internet.

Also, all of this is further nullified by the fact that you keep focusing on auto attacks rather than backstabs, which have significantly increased damage from raising STR.

I said that Str increased damage from my first post in this thread - it's just not meaningful. I've already stated before in this thread that BS gets a little more benefit from Str. Unfortunately, its still a relatively small increase in overall damage but it is more meaningful than normal melee.

[Samoht]

Are you not familiar with min/maxing? It's even in the title of this thread. It means doing everything you can to increase the power of your character, even when the difference is small. Ultimately, there is still a difference because a lot of small differences eventually mean a significant difference.

As a result, STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Just like wearing a separate haste item from your epic is beneficial as of right now because epic haste is bugged on P99 and not correctly affecting the timer on special attacks.

You might look at it and say "it only negligibly affects backstab damage and doesn't affect auto attacks, so I'm not going to invest money in a separate haste item." Well then you're not a min/maxer, even though wearing separate haste would be beneficial.

Just like STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

[EdTuBrutus]

Are you not familiar with min/maxing? It's even in the title of this thread. It means doing everything you can to increase the power of your character, even when the difference is small. Ultimately, there is still a difference because a lot of small differences eventually mean a significant difference.

As a result, STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Just like wearing a separate haste item from your epic is beneficial as of right now because epic haste is bugged on P99 and not correctly affecting the timer on special attacks.

You might look at it and say "it only negligibly affects backstab damage and doesn't affect auto attacks, so I'm not going to invest money in a separate haste item." Well then you're not a min/maxer, even though wearing separate haste would be beneficial.

Just like STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

You can't compare different things to try and prove your incorrect point.

The thread was started by a 23 Rogue, at every single stage of progression, AC is more valuable to a Rogue than Str. AC offers a meaningful, viable benefit at all levels while Str offers much less. The tiny benefit from huge amounts of Str is nothing compared to taking less damage when you are being hit, having the flexibility to tank or off tank without being hurt, being able to commence autoattack at the earliest moment without significant damage if the first Evade fails and the ability to solo efficiently up to high levels.

[Jimjam]

I suggest Borgnach find some gloves with good charisma. Pick pocket is the primary ability of rogues, and he wants to ensure he gets the best prices when he fences his 'acquired goods'.

these don't exist. I understand the quandary now.

[Samoht]

You can't compare different things to try and prove your incorrect point.

The thread was started by a 23 Rogue, at every single stage of progression, AC is more valuable to a Rogue than Str. AC offers a meaningful, viable benefit at all levels while Str offers much less. The tiny benefit from huge amounts of Str is nothing compared to taking less damage when you are being hit, having the flexibility to tank or off tank without being hurt, being able to commence autoattack at the earliest moment without significant damage if the first Evade fails and the ability to solo efficiently up to high levels.

Now who is comparing something different to prove an incorrect point? The title of this thread includes the words "min/max." The point you're trying to make is that STR doesn't have enough value to you to quantify investing heavily into it. To everybody who is actually going to min/max, the stats they're going to invest in are STR/STA/HP/MR, because those are the most important stats to them, as a min/max rogue.

The point you're trying to make is completely off target. Quit bringing up red herrings.

STR has high value to a Rogue. If it doesn't have high value to you, you're just a bad Rogue.

[EdTuBrutus]

Now who is comparing something different to prove an incorrect point? The title of this thread includes the words "min/max." The point you're trying to make is that STR doesn't have enough value to you to quantify investing heavily into it. To everybody who is actually going to min/max, the stats they're going to invest in are STR/STA/HP/MR, because those are the most important stats to them, as a min/max rogue.

The point you're trying to make is completely off target. Quit bringing up red herrings.

STR has high value to a Rogue. If it doesn't have high value to you, you're just a bad Rogue.

It's hard given you've now had a full explanation of why Str does not give a meaningful benefit but still refuse to believe. I can understand why you're stuck in denial, the chances are you've spent huge amounts of time and effort on Str builds for various characters if you've been around for 5 years.

Unfortunately the amount of time you have wasted and the huge inefficiency of a Str build over an AC build doesn't change the facts. The EQ mechanic does not support Str as a Min/Max option for a Rogue who is levelling (and in a lot of end game circumstances. although then it will generally be HP or Resists that are the priority).

A Str build Rogue, levels more slowly, is less flexible, cannot solo and is a drain on group resources over an AC build Rogue. That's just how the game works, whether you like it or not.

[Samoht]

This is about min/max. The point of min/max is to always assume optimal circumstances, and you will never get hit under optimal circumstances. Never. AC is all but useless to a min/max rogue. Yes it is nice to have, and yes the higher AC piece might be selected between two otherwise similar pieces of gear, but the focus is always going to go on like this:

1) STR up to 255
2) STA up to 200 and then as much HP as possible
3) MR for most dragon fights
4) other resists/STA up to 255

The rest of your post is opinion, and most of it is not even backed up with facts. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You cannot even cite any sources. I have proof. I have quotes from the original EQ developer that actually contradict a lot of the things you've said. And you have the nerve to say I'm in denial? You just can't face the fact that you've been wrong about this for the last 17 years. I'll bet you've never even played a high-end raiding Rogue.

[EdTuBrutus]

This is about min/max. The point of min/max is to always assume optimal circumstances, and you will never get hit under optimal circumstances. Never. AC is all but useless to a min/max rogue. Yes it is nice to have, and yes the higher AC piece might be selected between two otherwise similar pieces of gear, but the focus is always going to go on like this:

1) STR up to 255
2) STA up to 200 and then as much HP as possible
3) MR for most dragon fights
4) other resists/STA up to 255

The rest of your post is opinion, and most of it is not even backed up with facts. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You cannot even cite any sources. I have proof. I have quotes from the original EQ developer that actually contradict a lot of the things you've said. And you have the nerve to say I'm in denial? You just can't face the fact that you've been wrong about this for the last 17 years. I'll bet you've never even played a high-end raiding Rogue.

Min/Max is NOT about ideal circumstances. Min/Max is about efficiency in real game encounters. You can't even get that right.

You've provided no proof. As I explained the parsing was done 16 years ago and it no longer exists. It was comprehensive and I'm sure there are enough people around who remember it. If you want to go and do the thousands of hours of parsing that the Steel Warriors did, be my guest.

Let's clarify again. McQuaid said "Str increases Max and Average damage". I say "Str increases Max and Average damage". You linked a Wiki article with an equation for how Max damage changes. I told you that Max damage changes.

What you've singularly failed to do is provide any explanation for why your Modal damage does not change with more Str and no remotely plausible way for the increase in Max damage to provide a meaningful increase in DPS when your Modal damage does not change. You seem to have a mental block about the topic.

You're giving people bad advice based on a complete lack of understanding of how a statistical distribution works.

That's a problem for anyone who mistakes your input for actual reliable information. Which is a shame because the game mechanic is pretty easy to understand if it were not for those who are deliberately refusing to accept how it works.

[Samoht]

^ never played a rogue

[Samoht]

Just for reference, here's the quote again to the thing you originally said:

Stats in EQ are not meaningful. The combat mechanic makes very little reference to Stats. Stacking Str, Dex or Agi will not make a meaningful difference to how your character performs.

Getting STR to 255 will make a meaningful difference to you as a Rogue. It will increase your DPS. That is going to almost always be your only role in a group or raid.

Sometimes you will have to CR or open a door, but that really has nothing to do with your stats.

You are here to do damage, and STR will increase your damage. STR is most beneficial to have capped. Sure, the easiest way to continue to DPS is to survive, therefore survival stats are also important. And you will also often face AE damage and AE fears, but you will have to plan for those for the situation at hand. That's why it's also going to be important to have STA/HP, MR, and resist sets. Being prepared for those situations will help you excel at this game.

But for most tank and spank fights, and for most group situations, you will not take any damage. The only stats that will matter are the ratio of your weapons, your haste, and your STR. Everything else is going to be secondary. Even in fights with rampage and fights with adds, it will still be your role to DPS. Never to tank. Rampage and adds are going to be planned for and dealt with. In groups, you will overcome those situations by outdamaging any threat. Not micromanaging their damage done to you. Tanks have tools to deal with that. Healers have tools to deal with that. CC classes have tools to deal with that. Even you as a Rogue have tools to deal with that. You're never going to be asked to tank or off-tank in a group. If you think you're off-tanking, you're probably just pissing the CCer off. Stop it.

Honestly, no amount of straw men or red herrings are going to change that. STR is still beneficial because it increases your damage done. That's the role Rogues play in this game. You just need to survive as long as you can while doing as much damage as possible

And STR does help with that. It's a fact.

Min/Max is NOT about ideal circumstances. Min/Max is about efficiency in real game encounters. You can't even get that right.

Also, this is so inherently wrong that it's not funny. You might speak like an educated statistician, but a gamer you are not. And by your posts, I can tell that you've never played a Rogue in an MMO.

Stack AC for min/max.... LOL. This isn't Rift.

[Xaanka]

autism itt any rogue is going to be STR capped it's irrelevant the hardest part is losing +str for other stats. go for +cha gloves. source: i do twice as much dps as any rogue who has posted in this thread.

[Xaanka]

good advice: ignore all posts from rogues who don't have a primal weapon in this thread. here's a good post from a really knowledgeable an helpful forums poster who has a primal rogue, you can ignore all other posts in this thread:

autism itt any rogue is going to be STR capped it's irrelevant the hardest part is losing +str for other stats. go for +cha gloves. source: i do twice as much dps as any rogue who has posted in this thread.

[vouss]

It doesn't really matter how much DPS you do. It doesn't even matter what you wear. Nothing matters but the raw skill I bring to the table .next.

[Samoht]

good advice: ignore all posts from rogues who don't have a primal weapon in this thread.

better advice: ignore anything a red player ever posts. ever. in fact, just put them all on ignore and forget they exist. P99 forums become much more pleasant without them.

[Xaanka]

better advice: ignore anything a red player ever posts. ever. in fact, just put them all on ignore and forget they exist. P99 forums become much more pleasant without them.

i played on the pvp server and i still did more pve content than this person will ever see. i have a primal weapon, and he doesn't. he will never get one. with all the best gear he can possibly get, he can only hope to do 1/2 of my DPS. i am literally twice as good of a rogue as this guy will ever possibly be and i don't even log in. it is safe to ignore this guy's posts.

It doesn't really matter how much DPS you do. It doesn't even matter what you wear. Nothing matters but the raw skill I bring to the table .next.

sorry i can't hear you down there from the top of the damage meter, maybe you could try proccing your primal and get a little taller.. oh wait you don't have one and i do hahahaha!!

[RDawg816]

My rogue's gear is twice as good as this guy's rogue will ever possibly be - not because of skill, but because of my zerg guild. Also i don't even log in. it is safe to ignore my posts.
FTFY

[Xaanka]

FTFY

look at my post history dogg, ive been giving lessons on these forums since day 1... i called out the best k/d pvper on red the day my first character got in pvp range of him and i still hadn't filled all my armor slots yet. this class forum shit ain't nothing to me ive been a high roller taking big risks since day 1. my rogue does twice as much dps as yours ever could possibly hope to. the only way i could possibly do more damage is if i got a tunare dagger or maybe got a vulak dagger and waited a year for v3 to patch. i haven't even logged in for a year and i'm still on the bleeding edge.

since this thread is about min/maxing i am clearly the highest authority to be giving advice. elf hide gloves look cool. i rocked those until level 50. they were dope. i even gave them to a noob afterwards, he probably liked them too. you should use those ones.

hang on to those suckas in your bank and anything else with +dex until you get better, it'll save you a lot of carpal tunnel once you to train poisons later on. sage advice from a good everquest player. just another wisdom nugget from one of the most powerful rogues to ever walk the lands of norrath.

i think that's the best choice for your glove slot, that should get you to level 46 easily where you can warmbody a hate raid and get a trash drop glove. as long as u got some item in ur glove slot that looks cool or has some kind of stat on it people are gonna let u in their group they see banded and know u a broke bitch.... cant floss with that get out of here.. elf hide glove they dont even know the stat on that just know its magical. one day u will sit around at some raids n ball out like we do here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Gloves_of_Stability) but for now dont worry about it lil nugget. gold necklaces are cool don't worry about enchanting it if your child support coming up and she know ur name now. long as it aint fake like Kerwin's. anyone telling u to put any amount of serious thought into the choice of gloves u equip at level 18 or whatever op's character is, have autism.. something majorly wrong with their brains.. weirdos writing long ass posts for no reason smh i dont even know u or like u. i dont like you. i don't even like gloves.

remember my rogue does over 100 dps without buffs on high ac velious raid targets or something like that. i'm among the tallest rogues in everquest. at most any of these players could hope to do half the dps i do because they will never get a primal. there are currently 2 rogues trying to say they are better than me or somehow know more about everquest... even if they both have the best gear they possibly can get they will both do less dps than me combined. i am simply a more valuable and cherished player than them, which is why i was awarded many of the best items in the game like my primal and fang.

im not even the highest roller on this forums, i have to proc my primal to get my agi to cap unbuffed still, big time ballers fandango & banksy have better gear than me and a few others. all that shit capped. real G's. but until a big shot top dog comes in here im the deputy and its my job to keep these n00bies in place, spreading bad advice.... mileading new players.. u should be ashmed.

ELF HIDE GLOVES

THEY LOOK COOL MAN ANIME APPROVED certified BEST ROGUE IN THE THREADS SEAL OF APPROVEL

[RDawg816]

look at my post history dogg,
No need. You post present tells me all I need to know.

[Jimjam]

I've given further thought, due to the lack of classic +charisma gloves to help you offload appropriated acquisitions, you instead will require gloves with the highest strength minus weight.

This means hitting up kerra isle to kill Jo Jo for tiger hide gloves, or finding Callowing in North Karana for Griffon Talon Gloves.

By focusing on items with more strength than weight you can ensure you can handle the maximum amount of 'appropriately acquired equipment' whilst you seek out a clean fence to offload on (at good prices, of course).

[Samoht]

i played on the pvp server and i still did more pve content than this person will ever see. i have a primal weapon, and he doesn't. he will never get one. with all the best gear he can possibly get, he can only hope to do 1/2 of my DPS. i am literally twice as good of a rogue as this guy will ever possibly be and i don't even log in. it is safe to ignore this guy's posts.

you play on the easy mode server, go away.

[Xaanka]

you mean the one where you have to fight more than just npc's? the one where pve is harder because you can't refresh charged items? got it.

actually i played on the hard mode server.

[Aesop]

You clearly have mental issues Anime.

But I'd still recruit you.

[Samoht]

you mean the one where you have to fight more than just npc's? the one where pve is harder because you can't refresh charged items? got it.

actually i played on the hard mode server.

no, i mean the one with 50 players online max at prime time and zero competition between guilds.

it's a misnomer to refer to it as a pvp server because the only pvp that occurs is when someone new starts, and everybody switches to their delevelled twink alts in order to grief them in the starting zone until they rage quit and never log back in.

[Xaanka]

no, i mean the one with 50 players online max at prime time and zero competition between guilds.

it's a misnomer to refer to it as a pvp server because the only pvp that occurs is when someone new starts, and everybody switches to their delevelled twink alts in order to grief them in the starting zone until they rage quit and never log back in.

red had a much higher pop when i played, and i played in the underdog guilds until my last couple months on the server. i haven't logged in for almost a year, you seem to think i play on the dead, gay post-sleeper red server.

no pvp occurs on blue, so that point is meaningless.

npc's are harder to kill on red because you can't spam charged clickes on everything. you can't refresh lockets. you don't stand in line and wait in an orderly fashion for your turn in the raid rotation.

sorry pal but not only am i way more geared and experienced at raiding than you will ever be, but i did it on the hard mode server.

[vouss]

Yeah Xanaaka def played on the hard mode server. His first guild TMO was routinely wiped by mine for close to two months. He would literally stay up till 3-4am chain wiping to raid mobs because of me.

[Samoht]

so if you don't even play on red any more, then your primal weapons there don't count

[Xaanka]

Yeah Xanaaka def played on the hard mode server. His first guild TMO was routinely wiped by mine for close to two months. He would literally stay up till 3-4am chain wiping to raid mobs because of me.

TMO wasn't my first guild & Anime wasn't my first persona on red but this post is tru
It was a hard road 2 the top

so if you don't even play on red any more, then your primal weapons there don't count

I can log on whenever I want, why don't my weapons count?

http://i.imgur.com/R6IaK8Z.jpg

[Samoht]

because it's on the easy mode server that you claim you don't play on any more. how is this so hard for you to follow?

[Xaanka]

because it's on the easy mode server that you claim you don't play on any more. how is this so hard for you to follow?

Because the red server is harder in every imagineable way.

I don't log in because I've accomplished everything there is to do in EverQuest. I'm perfect. You will never have as good of gear as me and you play on the EASY MODE SERVER LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

kiddo just sit down u got put in ure place

ur gear is shit

u do like 60 dps..... cringe

y would anyone listen to u ELF HIDE GLOVES FTW

[Samoht]

Because the red server is harder in every imagineable way.

that's not even remotely true. red barely has 50 pop max during prime time any more. there's effectively no pvp. it has also had officially zero competition basically since it started. red is the laughing stock of anybody who plays seriously or competitively. it always has been, really. people like you really make it easy to see why.

I don't log in because I've accomplished everything there is to do in EverQuest. I'm perfect.

on the easy server.

[Xaanka]

that's not even remotely true. red barely has 50 pop max during prime time any more. there's effectively no pvp. it has also had officially zero competition basically since it started. red is the laughing stock of anybody who plays seriously or competitively. it always has been, really. people like you really make it easy to see why.[quote]

Red was 300-500 pop during the majority of time I played. Pop was over 100 when I quit. Why are you talking about red today?

There's effectively no PVP on blue.

On red, PVE encounters are more difficult because you can't spam charged clicky items, among other factors.

It's undeniable that Blue is the easy mode care bare server. Even playing on the noob server you aren't nearly as good as I am.

[quote]on the easy server.

u have a primal on red?
nope?
then sit down kidd0

ELF HIDE GLOVES FOR THE FREAKING WIN

what a fucking looney toon. this nerd arguing with me so much over something that dosn't matter. he knows i am the better rogue and everquest player most qualified to give advice but he still talks. i do over 100dps without buffs on the highest armor targets in velious. i do more than twice the dps of this guy. i am over twice as tall as him. there's no contest.

[Samoht]

On red, PVE encounters are more difficult because you can't spam charged clicky items, among other factors.

Why do you keep bringing up this point? they might make a few things easy, but rechargeable clickies don't dictate what you can and cannot kill. it's funny that you don't even mention pvp making things difficult. you'd probably hate to get caught in that lie.

u have a primal on red?

do you have a primal on blue? no? oh, that's right, you play on the easy-mode server.

what a fucking looney toon. this nerd arguing with me so much over something that dosn't matter. he knows i am the better rogue and everquest player most qualified to give advice but he still talks. i do over 100dps without buffs on the highest armor targets in velious. i do more than twice the dps of this guy. i am over twice as tall as him. there's no contest.

are you really this stupid or are you just a parody of stupid? how often do you refresh the forums to check for more posts? cringe.

[Xaanka]

Why do you keep bringing up this point? they might make a few things easy, but rechargeable clickies don't dictate what you can and cannot kill. it's funny that you don't even mention pvp making things difficult. you'd probably hate to get caught in that lie.

Does being able to recharge lockets make blue server easier?
Yes.

I don't even need to mention PVP when the actual NPC encounters are harder on red. Thanks for mentioning more reasons why red is the hard mode server.

do you have a primal on blue? no? oh, that's right, you play on the easy-mode server.

Do you have a primal on any server? No? Oh, that's right, you're a scrub.

are you really this stupid or are you just a parody of stupid? how often do you refresh the forums to check for more posts? cringe.

Kid ddo u even have any idea how badly you are getting dominated on these forums by me right now? What a joke. Elf hide gloves are clearly the best choice. You must suffer from brain damage.

[Xaanka]

literally quit a year ago and im more geared than this guy will ever dream of being

[Samoht]

lol. doublepost is best ragepost.

Does being able to recharge lockets make blue server easier?
Yes.

no. just sounds like you're jelly that you can't bind in PoM. it's still a huge non-factor in reality, tho. shoulda rolled a caster if you wanted to make teh PPs.

[tobolamr]

Skarlorn - Congratulations on your Sporali Gloves!

[ZiggyTheMuss]

literally quit a year ago and im more geared than this guy will ever dream of being

And you still post here? What a wanker!

[Xaanka]

lol. doublepost is best ragepost.



no. just sounds like you're jelly that you can't bind in PoM. it's still a huge non-factor in reality, tho. shoulda rolled a caster if you wanted to make teh PPs.

leave it to a blue player to not understand the importance of lockets for pulling in TOV

[georgie]

http://www.r99pvp.net/showplayer.php?p=Anime

Stork Friends Anime Empire Western Wastelands January 21 2016 9:43:54 PM
Lifealert Friends Anime Empire Sirens Grotto January 21 2016 9:10:01 PM
Stork Friends Anime Empire Cobalt Scar January 21 2016 8:23:18 PM
Swathe Friends Anime Empire Greater Faydark January 21 2016 8:13:07 PM
Blueflower Friends Anime Empire Dreadlands January 21 2016 8:10:23 PM

The day u lns'd 5 times to get to ToV cuckboy. Please tell us the importance of lockets

[Samoht]

lol so bad

[Xaanka]

http://www.r99pvp.net/showplayer.php?p=Anime

Stork Friends Anime Empire Western Wastelands January 21 2016 9:43:54 PM
Lifealert Friends Anime Empire Sirens Grotto January 21 2016 9:10:01 PM
Stork Friends Anime Empire Cobalt Scar January 21 2016 8:23:18 PM
Swathe Friends Anime Empire Greater Faydark January 21 2016 8:13:07 PM
Blueflower Friends Anime Empire Dreadlands January 21 2016 8:10:23 PM

The day u lns'd 5 times to get to ToV cuckboy. Please tell us the importance of lockets

you're still raiding and you still don't have a primal
i abused the play nice policy to get ahead of you in EQ on my PvE character :cool::cool:

i would be mad if i played as many hours & you and didn't have nearly the gear i do. like i would be considering a helium mask.

[Izmael]

Any rogue not in full ravenscale fails at fashionquest, EQ and life.

Also lol at red being "hard"

[georgie]

U got a sow sword ?

[fan D]

wow this samoht guy is lookin real bad here

talk about a forum fatality by xaanka, wp brew

[Lhancelot]

So basically what I am getting from this debate is that one person says since STR directly influences damage, the rogue should stack and focus on STR.

The other person is claiming that STR minimally influences damage, so other stats are more important, such as AC, HPs, etc., right?

If the latter is right, what stats are more useful then for a rogue if not STR? AC? HPs? Would it be better to put starting points into DEX or STA and not STR?

[Cecily]

Cap str with buffs then work on survival (hp/sta/resists). Anything else is wrong.

[Muggens]

So basically what I am getting from this debate is that one person says since STR directly influences damage, the rogue should stack and focus on STR.

The other person is claiming that STR minimally influences damage, so other stats are more important, such as AC, HPs, etc., right?

If the latter is right, what stats are more useful then for a rogue if not STR? AC? HPs? Would it be better to put starting points into DEX or STA and not STR?

Get STR up to atleast 188 because having 255(with str buff) STR will definately be of most benefit to a rogue because you get better dps. Then start on your defensive stats, most important is having nice resist because as a rogue you will most likely be taking damage from AoE spells. HP is always nice and AC will help you stay alive if you end up taking aggro(which you shouldnt).

Those who advocate for high AC and defensive stats before STR on a rogue does not play a rogue I'm sure.

Edit. I would go beyond 188 STR anyways, because theres not always a STR buff available.

[EdTuBrutus]

So basically what I am getting from this debate is that one person says since STR directly influences damage, the rogue should stack and focus on STR.

The other person is claiming that STR minimally influences damage, so other stats are more important, such as AC, HPs, etc., right?

If the latter is right, what stats are more useful then for a rogue if not STR? AC? HPs? Would it be better to put starting points into DEX or STA and not STR?

You will be hit. You will face AE. Dead Rogues do no damage. Rogues who are waiting to engage in case they get pulped from evade failures do no damage.

Ignore Str, ignore Dex, ignore Agi (as long as its over 75). Wear items entirely focused on AC with a secondary consideration to HP until you are 60. At 60 focus on HP with a consideration for Resists. Starting points should go into 25 Sta, 5 Str (if you play a race where Agi is close to the penalty level of 75, you might wanna put the 5pts there) Due to the way itemisation works in EQ, you will naturally cap Str focusing on HP items once you are raiding.

[Muggens]

You will be hit. You will face AE. Dead Rogues do no damage. Rogues who are waiting to engage in case they get pulped from evade failures do no damage.

Ignore Str, ignore Dex, ignore Agi (as long as its over 75). Wear items entirely focused on AC with a secondary consideration to HP until you are 60. At 60 focus on HP with a consideration for Resists. Starting points should go into 25 Sta, 5 Str (if you play a race where Agi is close to the penalty level of 75, you might wanna put the 5pts there) Due to the way itemisation works in EQ, you will naturally cap Str focusing on HP items once you are raiding.

The hp output from STA for rogues are minimal. On this server most tanks are nicely twinked during the leveling, even if theyre not Root fixes this. Incase youre not trolling and have played a rogue on this server and took the route your advocating, I can only imagine your dps have been lackluster and perhaps lost 100 less HP than a much more dmg outputting rogue incase of aggro, which should not kill you either way. Rogues are very good sustained dps, and more STR makes for more and heavier hits, dropping STR will only make you drop in dps. Getting nice resist stats is way more important than STA to my experience. Also you will not "naturally" cap STR at lvl 60, that is also misleading.

[EdTuBrutus]

more STR makes for more and heavier hits

Wrong.

As for the personal stuff, hope its helped you feel better today.

[maskedmelonpai]

The hp output from STA for rogues are minimal. On this server most tanks are nicely twinked during the leveling, even if theyre not Root fixes this. Incase youre not trolling and have played a rogue on this server and took the route your advocating, I can only imagine your dps have been lackluster and perhaps lost 100 less HP than a much more dmg outputting rogue incase of aggro, which should not kill you either way. Rogues are very good sustained dps, and more STR makes for more and heavier hits, dropping STR will only make you drop in dps. Getting nice resist stats is way more important than STA to my experience. Also you will not "naturally" cap STR at lvl 60, that is also misleading.

Good points ^^ Also, while str itself does directly increase dmg, it does raise atk, increasing accuracy and maximum hits as Muggs has pointed out. Str also directly affects backstab damage ^^

[EdTuBrutus]

Good points ^^ Also, while str itself does directly increase dmg, it does raise atk, increasing accuracy

No, it doen't.

The ATK in your character sheet is a representative value and the ATK from Str is not used in ANY equation for your chance to hit.

[Lhancelot]

No, it doen't.

The ATK in your character sheet is a representative value and the ATK from Str is not used in ANY equation for your chance to hit.

What does the ATK value represent then? And what if anything increases accuracy for melee hits?

[maskedmelonpai]

No, it doen't.

The ATK in your character sheet is a representative value and the ATK from Str is not used in ANY equation for your chance to hit.

Oh, well, do share the applicable equations so we can be sure we are talking melons to melons. OR we'll have to rely on observation which demonstrates you are wrong :c

Hug?

[EdTuBrutus]

Oh, well, do share the applicable equations so we can be sure we are talking melons to melons. OR we'll have to rely on observation which demonstrates you are wrong :c

Hug?

The onus is usually on those making claims from the norm. We know exactly how EQ works for all the parsing Steel Warriors did 16 years ago. You're claiming that P99 - which tries to be Classic - is not working like Live did. That's up to you to prove, not observe (everyone "observed" stats were great on Live till it was parsed).

[maskedmelonpai]

The onus is usually on those making claims from the norm. We know exactly how EQ works for all the parsing Steel Warriors did 16 years ago. You're claiming that P99 - which tries to be Classic - is not working like Live did. That's up to you to prove, not observe (everyone "observed" stats were great on Live till it was parsed).

Not stats on gear silly. Talking about max hits. Go make a new high elf paladin w/ say 65 str and a 10dmg or higher weapon. You will notice that max hit is 20. Now, buff the weeny pally up to 200 str and you will see hits higher than 20. If you ever even rolled a naked ogre you could have witnessed this. Pretty simple :3

[Aesop]

max hit is gonna be 20 on a new toon regardless. dmg cap is 20 until what 10?

[Aesop]

however you will hit for the cap more often with the ogre than you will with a high elf.

[Cecily]

What does the ATK value represent then? And what if anything increases accuracy for melee hits?

To put it simply, accuracy is a level check (your skill levels vs mob's level) that results in a given % chance to hit. That number doesn't change. The only way you can affect it is by attacking from behind to negate your opponent's defensive abilities. Stats do not change accuracy. DEX doesn't. STR doesn't. ATK doesn't. Charisma might. CHA doesn't.

ATK increases the frequency of higher hits versus a given AC. IE: Hit for / BS for max more often.

STR is * the* most important stat for rogues, regardless of high availability, because it directly effects your max potential hit with melee and, of particular interest, backstabs. Backstab a sitting friend while you have rez effects on and see how sad it is versus 255 STR. Extra ATK too. There's no reason to not focus on this early.

[EdTuBrutus]

Not stats on gear silly. Talking about max hits. Go make a new high elf paladin w/ say 65 str and a 10dmg or higher weapon. You will notice that max hit is 20. Now, buff the weeny pally up to 200 str and you will see hits higher than 20. If you ever even rolled a naked ogre you could have witnessed this. Pretty simple :3

Yeah, of course. Which is the point. Changing the MAX when the MODAL doesn't change does not make a significant dps difference. Which is my entire point. I'd also add, that the entire point for going with Str on gear etc is as a form of min-maxing, so I'm not sure why we are considering non-Barb Rogues.

Also, from memory. isn't Max and Modal the same for sub 20 characters? I genuinely can't remember of the damage cap changes with certain Str levels.

[Lhancelot]

To put it simply, accuracy is a level check (your skill levels vs mob's level) that results in a given % chance to hit. That number doesn't change. The only way you can affect it is by attacking from behind to negate your opponent's defensive abilities. Stats do not change accuracy. DEX doesn't. STR doesn't. ATK doesn't. Charisma might. CHA doesn't.

ATK increases the frequency of higher hits versus a given AC. IE: Hit for / BS for max more often.

STR is * the* most important stat for rogues, regardless of high availability, because it directly effects your max potential hit with melee and, of particular interest, backstabs. Backstab a sitting friend while you have rez effects on and see how sad it is versus 255 STR. Extra ATK too. There's no reason to not focus on this early.

Yeah ok, I understand this. This makes sense to me.

Yeah, of course. Which is the point. Changing the MAX when the MODAL doesn't change does not make a significant dps difference. Which is my entire point. I'd also add, that the entire point for going with Str on gear etc is as a form of min-maxing, so I'm not sure why we are considering non-Barb Rogues.


I have no idea what this means, it makes no sense to me, at all. Can't you write in a fashion where someone like me can understand what you are explaining? It sounds like you know a lot about rogues and how to optimize them with gear and/or stats, but I can't follow what you are saying. :confused:

[EdTuBrutus]

ATK increases the frequency of higher hits versus a given AC. IE: Hit for / BS for max more often.


That's not entirely true. Its a non-normal distribution, it only effectively** skew the top end, with the peak, obviously, being fixed at your Modal.

(** There is a chunk of nuance there, but genuinely would only create the same confusing narrative which leads people to invest in bad gear choices while they are progressing)

[EdTuBrutus]

I have no idea what this means, it makes no sense to me, at all. Can't you write in a fashion where someone like me can understand what you are explaining? It sounds like you know a lot about rogues and how to optimize them with gear and/or stats, but I can't follow what you are saying. :confused:

Sorry, I just don't really know a simple way to explain it.

The best way to think about it is that due to the way the EQ combat works, Str has a limited effect. So while you are levelling to 60, don't even think about it. If you concentrate on gear with a high AC, you will be much more flexible and capable of soloing till your into your low 50s.

Once you are 60, for absolute maximum dps, you want your buffed Str to be 255. If you are 60 and raiding is it relatively easy to do this, so if you focus on gear with good HP and Resists, you are likely to find your Str capped or close to capped anyway.

[Lhancelot]

Sorry, I just don't really know a simple way to explain it.

The best way to think about it is that due to the way the EQ combat works, Str has a limited effect. So while you are levelling to 60, don't even think about it. If you concentrate on gear with a high AC, you will be much more flexible and capable of soloing till your into your low 50s.

Once you are 60, for absolute maximum dps, you want your buffed Str to be 255. If you are 60 and raiding is it relatively easy to do this, so if you focus on gear with good HP and Resists, you are likely to find your Str capped or close to capped anyway.

Gotcha. Thank you.

[Muggens]

Wrong.

As for the personal stuff, hope its helped you feel better today.

Nah, I know more str=more dps. You are very adamant on this, exclaiming advice to rogue youngins to go the opposite direction of the norm, have you tried this on here or are you just banging on about the Steel Warriors?

[RDawg816]

Nah, I know more str=more dps. You are very adamant on this, exclaiming advice to rogue youngins to go the opposite direction of the norm, have you tried this on here or are you just banging on about the Steel Warriors?
Yes, he has a rogue on p99. I've grouped with him. You're right, he is very adamant about AC being most important...even the the point of telling the warriors in the group he will tank because his AC is higher...
I don't think it's worth arguing with him. People will believe what they want.

[Raev]

That's not entirely true. Its a non-normal distribution, it only effectively** skew the top end, with the peak, obviously, being fixed at your Modal.

I think you may be relying too much on old data from Live. While the quests and factions and items match, many game mechanics do not, including very important ones like resists, AC, and spell threat.

For example, parsing Raev vs Telkorenar from yesterday, I had 5 'modal' hits for 97 (Abashi's 40*2+17 damage bonus) out of 161 hits total. In fact the true mode of the distribution was actually the min hit for 21, with 20 total hits. Boot up gamparse sometime and you can see that strength absolutely makes a difference. IIRC I eyeballed it at about 1% extra damage per 5-10 points of strength when I was leveling.

I am all about AC and HP and not dying on all of my toons, but 250 vs 150 STR is maybe +15% extra damage, which is your primary role as a rogue.

[Samoht]

You will be hit. You will face AE. Dead Rogues do no damage. Rogues who are waiting to engage in case they get pulped from evade failures do no damage.

Ignore Str, ignore Dex, ignore Agi (as long as its over 75). Wear items entirely focused on AC with a secondary consideration to HP until you are 60. At 60 focus on HP with a consideration for Resists. Starting points should go into 25 Sta, 5 Str (if you play a race where Agi is close to the penalty level of 75, you might wanna put the 5pts there) Due to the way itemisation works in EQ, you will naturally cap Str focusing on HP items once you are raiding.

Why are you still posting here? There is only one thing that you're right about, and that's that dead rogues do no DPS. But if two rogues are alive, and one is STR capped while the other is not, the one more STR will do more DPS. I can't believe you're still questioning this. Rogues should NEVER gear for AC.

Everything else you post is elitist nonsensical horse crap. You've never even once provided a source to the things you claim. That's how wrong you are.

Cap str with buffs then work on survival (hp/sta/resists). Anything else is wrong.

Jesus christ, why did you let him go on for so long before you got involved?

[EdTuBrutus]

Yes, he has a rogue on p99. I've grouped with him. You're right, he is very adamant about AC being most important...even the the point of telling the warriors in the group he will tank because his AC is higher...
I don't think it's worth arguing with him. People will believe what they want.

There's no need to lie.

You know, you're last point is the nub of the whole debate. I think it is pretty well established how low value Stats are in EQ. The big problem is that a lot of people have taken the time and trouble to gear characters based on the false knowledge about stats. And in EQ, that is a LOT of time and trouble.

It never surprises me that people who believe in stats will argue so angrily, so vindictively that stats work, even to the point of making up lies and grasping at the thinnest of straws. But the good thing is that gear is cheap and newer players will likely try it both ways and it becomes very, very clear to them, very, very quickly, which is the correct gearing choice,

And it is not yours.

[Samoht]

I think it is pretty well established how low value Stats are in EQ.

There has been a lot of evidence posted that directly contradict this statement. Some of it has even been posted by you. Why do you continue to defend such an indefensible position?

[RDawg816]

There's no need to lie.

It's not a lie. Good thing I don't value your opinion though. You just keep on playing how you think is best. We'll do the same. :)

[Samoht]

It's not a lie. Good thing I don't value your opinion though. You just keep on playing how you think is best. We'll do the same. :)

What's his in-game name?

[RDawg816]

What's his in-game name?
I'd have to check my logs when I get home. It was similar to his forum name.

[Xaanka]

i like how these retards are still arguing about min/maxing a pre-raid rogue when all you need to do is

- get a 13 dmg mainhand
- get a bunch of str
- get an epic when you're 46

thats ur role in a party. clicking backstab. thats the only thing important in a 6 man group. when you get to raiding all your stats will be maxed and you'll focus on atk/health/resists unless you're a scrub like this samhat loser.

[Xaanka]

lik if you have to put any thought into gearing a rogue let alone post about it for 12 pages you're probably really bad at everquest. who cares about gear choices when you can hit 60 naked with a crystalline spear, get an epic, join any guild and contribute more than most classes with an epic naked and get showered in raid loot until all ur stats are capped. maybe buy some banded armor along the way if u wanna look flashy.

only real stat argument to be making is with starting points where investing in dex, sta, or agi is the best depending on race because str gear flows like piss.

[Samoht]

holy crap, the bergers double poster is back

cringe

[Xaanka]

holy crap, the bergers double poster is back

cringe


hmm yes i'm the berger here

ELF HIDE GLOVES

FOR
T
H
E

FREAKING

WIN

http://i.imgur.com/FO5EtMQ.png?1
http://i.imgur.com/R6IaK8Z.jpg



Any defensive benefit from AGI is minimal at best.



Rogues don't get melee crits/crips on P99. Just thrown. If you're throwing, you don't care about your DPS, anyway.



Just switch to Iksar Scaled Gloves (http://wiki.project1999.com/Iksar_Scaled_Gloves). They're super cheap and have decent AC, STR, and HP.

Any benefit from AGI is definitely minimal.

Well that's not true at all. As long as you are under the STR cap, raising your STR is going to raise your average hit and, more importantly as a Rogue, your average backstab which ultimately means more DPS.



Any amount of return that a Rogue has on AGI is still minimal at best. Do not stack AGI.


You're not right just because you mention other classes. This is a thread dedicated to Rogue stats in a subforum dedicated to melee DPS classes. This subset does not include WAR, PAL, or SHD.

STR is definitely a beneficial stat for Rogues. STR directly raises your attack power which directly raises your damage done, therefore STR raises your damage done.

The only caveat is that STR has a hard cap of 255, and any STR over 255 is obviously wasted.

No it hasn't. You're actually the first person I've seen make such a claim since I started playing here five years ago. Here's a quote from Brad McQuaid in the year 2000 (https://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0) that contradicts everything you've claimed regarding STR.



Here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Melee_Combat_and_Damage) is the link to read how STR works on P99.

Also, please read this (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Backstab_Damage_Calculations) for more information regarding the formula for backstab damage and how much it is greatly influenced by total STR. Tl;dr - You lose 100 damage on your max back stab if you're equipped with epic and only have 100 STR as apposed to 255 STR.

This isn't the RNF forum. Please keep your conversation civil.

Also, you're not making any sense. At this point, the only person who owes an apology is you.

Not according to Brad.



That's not how a bell curve works at all. You cannot just increase one end of it without adjusting the rest of the graph. The center point does move by raising the max.



But in the end, you do admit that there is an increase in DPS, and you just keep interjecting snide comments for the purpose of being rude on the Internet.

Also, all of this is further nullified by the fact that you keep focusing on auto attacks rather than backstabs, which have significantly increased damage from raising STR.

Are you not familiar with min/maxing? It's even in the title of this thread. It means doing everything you can to increase the power of your character, even when the difference is small. Ultimately, there is still a difference because a lot of small differences eventually mean a significant difference.

As a result, STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Just like wearing a separate haste item from your epic is beneficial as of right now because epic haste is bugged on P99 and not correctly affecting the timer on special attacks.

You might look at it and say "it only negligibly affects backstab damage and doesn't affect auto attacks, so I'm not going to invest money in a separate haste item." Well then you're not a min/maxer, even though wearing separate haste would be beneficial.

Just like STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Now who is comparing something different to prove an incorrect point? The title of this thread includes the words "min/max." The point you're trying to make is that STR doesn't have enough value to you to quantify investing heavily into it. To everybody who is actually going to min/max, the stats they're going to invest in are STR/STA/HP/MR, because those are the most important stats to them, as a min/max rogue.

The point you're trying to make is completely off target. Quit bringing up red herrings.

STR has high value to a Rogue. If it doesn't have high value to you, you're just a bad Rogue.

This is about min/max. The point of min/max is to always assume optimal circumstances, and you will never get hit under optimal circumstances. Never. AC is all but useless to a min/max rogue. Yes it is nice to have, and yes the higher AC piece might be selected between two otherwise similar pieces of gear, but the focus is always going to go on like this:

1) STR up to 255
2) STA up to 200 and then as much HP as possible
3) MR for most dragon fights
4) other resists/STA up to 255

The rest of your post is opinion, and most of it is not even backed up with facts. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You cannot even cite any sources. I have proof. I have quotes from the original EQ developer that actually contradict a lot of the things you've said. And you have the nerve to say I'm in denial? You just can't face the fact that you've been wrong about this for the last 17 years. I'll bet you've never even played a high-end raiding Rogue.

^ never played a rogue

Just for reference, here's the quote again to the thing you originally said:



Getting STR to 255 will make a meaningful difference to you as a Rogue. It will increase your DPS. That is going to almost always be your only role in a group or raid.

Sometimes you will have to CR or open a door, but that really has nothing to do with your stats.

You are here to do damage, and STR will increase your damage. STR is most beneficial to have capped. Sure, the easiest way to continue to DPS is to survive, therefore survival stats are also important. And you will also often face AE damage and AE fears, but you will have to plan for those for the situation at hand. That's why it's also going to be important to have STA/HP, MR, and resist sets. Being prepared for those situations will help you excel at this game.

But for most tank and spank fights, and for most group situations, you will not take any damage. The only stats that will matter are the ratio of your weapons, your haste, and your STR. Everything else is going to be secondary. Even in fights with rampage and fights with adds, it will still be your role to DPS. Never to tank. Rampage and adds are going to be planned for and dealt with. In groups, you will overcome those situations by outdamaging any threat. Not micromanaging their damage done to you. Tanks have tools to deal with that. Healers have tools to deal with that. CC classes have tools to deal with that. Even you as a Rogue have tools to deal with that. You're never going to be asked to tank or off-tank in a group. If you think you're off-tanking, you're probably just pissing the CCer off. Stop it.

Honestly, no amount of straw men or red herrings are going to change that. STR is still beneficial because it increases your damage done. That's the role Rogues play in this game. You just need to survive as long as you can while doing as much damage as possible

And STR does help with that. It's a fact.



Also, this is so inherently wrong that it's not funny. You might speak like an educated statistician, but a gamer you are not. And by your posts, I can tell that you've never played a Rogue in an MMO.

Stack AC for min/max.... LOL. This isn't Rift.

better advice: ignore anything a red player ever posts. ever. in fact, just put them all on ignore and forget they exist. P99 forums become much more pleasant without them.

you play on the easy mode server, go away.

no, i mean the one with 50 players online max at prime time and zero competition between guilds.

it's a misnomer to refer to it as a pvp server because the only pvp that occurs is when someone new starts, and everybody switches to their delevelled twink alts in order to grief them in the starting zone until they rage quit and never log back in.

so if you don't even play on red any more, then your primal weapons there don't count

because it's on the easy mode server that you claim you don't play on any more. how is this so hard for you to follow?

that's not even remotely true. red barely has 50 pop max during prime time any more. there's effectively no pvp. it has also had officially zero competition basically since it started. red is the laughing stock of anybody who plays seriously or competitively. it always has been, really. people like you really make it easy to see why.



on the easy server.

Why do you keep bringing up this point? they might make a few things easy, but rechargeable clickies don't dictate what you can and cannot kill. it's funny that you don't even mention pvp making things difficult. you'd probably hate to get caught in that lie.



do you have a primal on blue? no? oh, that's right, you play on the easy-mode server.



are you really this stupid or are you just a parody of stupid? how often do you refresh the forums to check for more posts? cringe.

lol. doublepost is best ragepost.



no. just sounds like you're jelly that you can't bind in PoM. it's still a huge non-factor in reality, tho. shoulda rolled a caster if you wanted to make teh PPs.

lol so bad

Why are you still posting here? There is only one thing that you're right about, and that's that dead rogues do no DPS. But if two rogues are alive, and one is STR capped while the other is not, the one more STR will do more DPS. I can't believe you're still questioning this. Rogues should NEVER gear for AC.

Everything else you post is elitist nonsensical horse crap. You've never even once provided a source to the things you claim. That's how wrong you are.



Jesus christ, why did you let him go on for so long before you got involved?

There has been a lot of evidence posted that directly contradict this statement. Some of it has even been posted by you. Why do you continue to defend such an indefensible position?

What's his in-game name?

why would i read these posts all my stats and resists and atk are maxed and i have a primal + vyemm dagger maybe if you spent less time "min maxing" and more time getting good at everquest u could roll with the big dogs like forums poster #1 extraordinaire Xaanka

btw if you're not a fucking scrub here's why strength gear is dumb:
the second you start getting raid gear your STR will be capped and the hard part is getting rid of enough STR for other stats.
nobody cares about damage meters but they will laugh at u and call u a scrub if u die. STA and resists = PIXELS. there are some raid encounters with aoes or fears and u will need some kind of a base amount of some kind of resist not to die. if you go into raiding with those resists and hp u can start racking up dragon killer pointz for the sick pixels sam hat guy will never get. until you start getting velious raid weapons max haste and stuff all rogues with an epic do basically the same damage.
pre raid encounters are so short that min/maxing dps won't make any real difference as long as you have a 13dmg mh, epic at 46, and haste.
u arent pvping why do you care about min/maxing low levels just play the game i got to 60 in banded

[RDawg816]

This thread (and probably many more) is so much better when Xaanka is on your ignore list.

[Samoht]

This thread (and probably many more) is so much better when Xaanka is on your ignore list.

so true. it's just strange how obsessed he is. cringeworthy.

[Cecily]

Interesting how a page or more of replies disappeared. Could uh everyone maybe chill out a bit on this advice forum and remember it's not RnF?

[Xaanka]

so true. it's just strange how obsessed he is. cringeworthy.

i am a better rogue & everquest player than you will ever be. you could play for years and never see the pixels and raids i have. did you wake the sleeper on live? did you wake the sleeper on p99? nope and nope. i'm simply the superior & more educated player here. proof is in the pudding, why do you have an alarti quote in your sig? do you look up to him, a big whiny crybaby like you? if he your role model? do you cry together?

kiddo elf hide gloves freaking p*wn. leather is in this season and they're quite fashionable. look at them:

http://i.imgur.com/FO5EtMQ.png?1

they're beautiful. elf hide gloves right here. the finest tanned elf hide leather. how could you not salivate at the thought that the makers of everquest were foolish enough to make such a fine pixel droppable and tradeable? i can't believe they let level 1's wear these bad boys.

look at the supple texture. a fine leather only improved by its age. sure there may be some scuffs here and there, but they only add to the character. *exhales a cherry aroma smoke from my briarwood pipe*

http://i.imgur.com/hYg7KSn.png?1

kid you might be all about your strength gear and new-fangled iksar scale gloves, but sometimes u just can't beat the classics. i like what u kids are doing these days with chain mail and plate armor its honestly pretty cool but the elf hide glove will always be a staple piece. theyve been in since F/W1998 they are timeless.

idk kid. u will never be as good as me and elf hide gloves own bones so SIT DOWN KID

this is what your rogue looks like showing up to an everquest raid
http://i.imgur.com/wCvhrHb.jpg

this is me
http://i.imgur.com/3NKNnzO.jpg

"hard as fuck"

[EdTuBrutus]

Xaanka, you sound unhinged.

Reach out. There will be someone who can get you the help you need.

[Videri]

Xaanka obviously has a brilliant mind, but sadly, he seems to use it to troll 20 people on the p99 forums. Alas, for surely he could write glorious elfsim poetry.

[Muggens]

hehe, who knew a thread about elf hide gloves(supple textures) could be so entertaining

[Xaanka]

Xaanka obviously has a brilliant mind, but sadly, he seems to use it to troll 20 people on the p99 forums. Alas, for surely he could write glorious elfsim poetry.

O why do you walk through the field of bone in http://i.imgur.com/e0uCVwb.png,


when http://i.imgur.com/gWzuLdW.png so much and so much?


O fat gay http://i.imgur.com/jp9o0Y9.png whom nobody loves,


Why do you walk through the field of bone in http://i.imgur.com/e0uCVwb.png,


When http://i.imgur.com/TjAXarL.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/kjR6rzw.png


And shivering from my keyboard's touch?


O why do you walk through the field of bone in http://i.imgur.com/e0uCVwb.png,


when http://i.imgur.com/gWzuLdW.png so much and so much?

[Samoht]

like i said before, i'm not sure if he's actually this stupid or just a parody of this stupid

either way, the guy is beyond obsessed. he's on my tip so hard it makes me cringe.

looking at the hate speech in his avatar and most recent post, though, i'm thinking he's trying this hard so that he can get forum banned.

maybe he is reaching out for help so that he can get back to doing meth IRL.

the best part is that he obviously doesn't know as much about the forums or about EQ as he thinks he does.

[Xaanka]

like i said before, i'm not sure if he's actually this stupid or just a parody of this stupid

either way, the guy is beyond obsessed. he's on my tip so hard it makes me cringe.

looking at the hate speech in his avatar and most recent post, though, i'm thinking he's trying this hard so that he can get forum banned.

maybe he is reaching out for help so that he can get back to doing meth IRL.

the best part is that he obviously doesn't know as much about the forums or about EQ as he thinks he does.

wow i can't believe this piece of shit BIGOT would misgender me 10 times AND marginalize my sexual orientation AND make fun of my disability in a single post!!
i can't believe this kind of hate speech is tolerated here. this isn't rants & flames, samhat :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: mods?

[skarlorn]

God I can't believe I nearly missed these legendary posts by Xaanka.

[Xaanka]

i hope i've helped you with your decision on what 10 platinum rogue gloves to equip

[fan D]

elf hide gloves is a fine pixel, grats OP

[yyrkoon]

God I can't believe I nearly missed these legendary posts by Xaanka.

the ones he got dunked on so hard and outed as the shittiest pvper on red?

"it's my pve character" lol

pathetic

[Xaanka]

the ones he got dunked on so hard and outed as the shittiest pvper on red?

"it's my pve character" lol

pathetic

http://i.imgur.com/43CTGmy.jpg

[Samoht]

Is French the new word for PVP players on the red server? I don't get it.

[yyrkoon]

shrug never been to france

got a chortle out of the pic though

[Xaanka]

shrug never been to france

got a chortle out of the pic though

http://i.imgur.com/Eq7zRgD.png
http://i.imgur.com/XZbt7KV.jpg

[yyrkoon]

holy shit you are retarded

yyrkoon is a character from moorcock's elric series.

it is books btw. something ppl used to have before you were born


I mean you are retarded but I still like you I think. But you should play blue really

[Samoht]

I mean you are retarded but I still like you I think. But you should play blue really

please don't curse the only good P99 server like that

[Xaanka]

holy shit you are retarded

yyrkoon is a character from moorcock's elric series.

it is books btw. something ppl used to have before you were born


I mean you are retarded but I still like you I think. But you should play blue really

heh,,,,,, unfamiliar with characters from my gay fantasy novels.... *sips from wine glass of Robitussin DM max* i bet you don't even read manga, uncultured swine...

[Muggens]

moorcock's elric series.


Lol, glad Im not reading fantasy or whatever its called!

[yyrkoon]

I dont read manga. I'm an adult, sorry

You are still pathetic at pvp though

Lol pve char

[Xaanka]

I dont read manga. I'm an adult, sorry

You are still pathetic at pvp though

Lol pve char

http://i.imgur.com/lD9Z79j.gif
You
uncultured
swine......
While you were having premarital sex, i studied The Reverse-Blade. Baka Gaijin...
http://i.imgur.com/lD9Z79j.gif
http://i.imgur.com/NOGXDUr.jpg
Xaanka aka Anime - Wielder of the Primal Velium Warsword. the Rogue who takes everquest & these forums VERY seriously.

[Muggens]

Rurouni Kenshin^ I remember the old OVAs were great - My fave manga books I dunno maybe Crying Freeman or Tekkon Kinkreet

[Samoht]

wait, his primal is the sword? he doesn't even have the spear?

omg welfare primals from red. hahahaha

[Aesop]

that was pretty weak Samoht.

You know the only path to victory on this one was just to walk away but you couldn't. Xaanaka will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience, and he did. He whupped you good.

[Samoht]

it's funny how he needs so many cheerleaders from red to back him up. that's how bad he looks in this thread.

[Raev]

Wielder of the Primal Velium Warsword
It's definitely better than nothing, but without a spear on a rogue you are firmly in the peasant class of primal users.

[yyrkoon]

dont feed this unfunny troll

when cornered, he will just post some manga or 4chan pictures thinking it is hilarious (breaking news: it's not)

he got a primal sword (on a rogue - lol) on the red server where you almost get primals on character creation instead of Sword*

he also was a complete warmbody on that server, made fun of by almost everyone and bullied by whoever felt the need

you could literally /pet attack this idiot and wait for the YT

[skarlorn]

I like Xaankas weird shit posts more than any of your posts.

He's fucked but there's creativity and an undeniable energy

[yyrkoon]

thx for sharing

no idea who the fuck you are

[vouss]

yyrkoon doesnt even play on our server and he knows what kind of cuck xaanka is

[silo32]

dont feed this unfunny troll

when cornered, he will just post some manga or 4chan pictures thinking it is hilarious (breaking news: it's not)

he got a primal sword (on a rogue - lol) on the red server where you almost get primals on character creation instead of Sword*

he also was a complete warmbody on that server, made fun of by almost everyone and bullied by whoever felt the need

you could literally /pet attack this idiot and wait for the YT

this is all true

been on red close to 7 years

[Xaanka]

i turned on auto run and went afk every day of my life, had the worst pvp score in velious & i still got a primal and either the 1st or 2nd vyemm dagger on red a year ago get roasted